Not an Attrition class

Not an Attrition class

in Necromancer

Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

This class has such poor recovery options and ordinary sustained damage (while lacking burst), that I don’t understand how it can be called an attrition class or a hard class to put down.

There is a reason why the necro is usually a priority target, and it isn’t just because he can strip boons and interrupt with fear. It’s because the class has such little escape options, and thus must facetank damage. But, the class has poor sustained tanking options.

Want to look at attrition classes? They are called bunkers. D/D or s/d ele, guardian, and BM specced evasion tank rangers are attrition classes — BECAUSE THEY CAN RECOVER after absorbing damage. The necro has the capacity to absorb a good amount of initial damage with death shroud and a large health pool, but once life force is gone, your HP is not going back up. Your damage is mediocre relative to other classes, and you will be worn down.

Life steals for the necromancer need to be substantially higher, and so does life force gain need to be outside traited staff. Life force should regenerate outside combat — a necro without life force is a sitting duck because of no Blurred Frenzy, no Diversion, no vigor, no shadowstep, no plate armor, no blocks, no aegis and no endure pain, and no teleports/gap creation tools. Starting matches or skirmishes at 0 life force is an unnecessary disadvantage that should be removed.

Another issue is the class mechanic, Death Shroud. By entering death shroud, your already poor damage drops substantially. You don’t apply nearly as much conditions — you block yourself out of mainhand dagger damage (which is infinitely better than life blast), your bleeds expire without being renewed.

Classes like the ele and mesmer, guardian and thief and warrior can remain offensive with their defensive tools, which means they can continue to pressure while playing defensively. The necromancer drops his offense the moment he resorts to survival tools. His stun breakers are on ridiculously long cooldowns as well.

Then we have the issue of mobility/gap closers. You simply cannot play without a staff, because otherwise you will be kited to death. Death Pact has clear, significant cast time and animation that requires you to be close to even land assuming they don’t dodge. Deathly Swarm, like most of the necro’s projectiles are so ridiculously slow with the amount of dodges many classes have at their disposal. Because dagger has no cleave, you NEED the staff as it is the only aoe weapon. You cannot play the power based weapons of axe and dagger because the axe’s range is too limited to deal with savvy players who will dodge the aoe cripple and outrange the axe’s meager 600 range. The axe itself only does notable damage during Ghastly claws, and the autoattack damage is dreadful.

If you play a condition build, the ele and thief and axe/torch trap ranger and engi are so much better at pressuring with condition spikes. The necro has a really unenjoyable ramp up to his damage relative to the damage intake he sees. The class is slow at dealing damage, slow at moving, and yet it is also slow in recovery so it cannot weather prolonged fights against high damage classes in the way good bunkers can, especially a good roamer ranger.

The class simply needs better recovery options, better damage (if you refuse to give it spike, its sustained should be significantly better/more reliable than other classes to compensate), and better mobility tools on the dagger/axe weapons.

It was said that this the class that once you lock horns with, you commit, but it’s not true. It’s such an easy class to get away from. This is not a chaser class, and a couple of 3-4 second chills is not going to make it a better chaser than a heartseeker/infiltrator’s arrow thief or charging warrior or leaping ranger or RTL/burning speed ele.

P.S. I don’t want your WvW videos; save them. Show me sPvP/dungeons or don’t bother at all.

Not an Attrition class

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Posted by: Anchoku.8142

Anchoku.8142

I agree with the OP’s stated opinion. A lot of the “special sauce” that went into the Necromancer concept are mitigated by skills of other professions or the recent patch to dungeon bosses. I find it sad that people complain about Necromancer not having good healing or finally getting a buff to Signet of the Locust because, instead of making the Necromancer profession better at what it was supposed to do, developers make it better at what other jobs do.

Each profession should have areas that are funtionally as good, or better, than other professions while being equal or worse in different areas. When I play Necromancer, sure, I note and appreciate the specialties, but the value of those areas seems pretty low overall. If minions worked reliably, if conditions were harder for other professions to remove, if chill and fear were not so short-lived, if health and life siphon were stronger, then, yes, Necromancer may have functional areas of specialty. Right now, I feel like it lacks something to distinguish it from being inferior in every category except ones that have little effect.

(edited by Anchoku.8142)

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Posted by: Literatii.6031

Literatii.6031

The class has plenty of escape options. It’s called “play another class”.

In my case it’s a Thief, although I have an Elementalist on his heels to 80.

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Posted by: Gryph.8237

Gryph.8237

The class needs a complete revamp in my opinion, which likely matters little.

Complete restructuring. They messed it up right out of the box when they developed our class mechanic out of an extended down state, which is why the UI is terrible, and we have no access at all to our utility skills. Same thing with transformations. Bad design, bad traits, bad weapons. I give the necro community props big time for surviving and doing well on it as they can and finding every possible loophole or build out there to salvage the class.

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Posted by: Vuh.1328

Vuh.1328

Life steals for the necromancer need to be substantially higher, and so does life force gain need to be outside traited staff. Life force should regenerate outside combat

This is the thing i’d like to see the most

Take your time to learn proper keybinding, it’s worth the struggle

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Posted by: Pendragon.8735

Pendragon.8735

Not much to say but +1, said all these same things many times over. Hopefully Anet will start listening at some point.

If we are to be attrition we need better survival and sustaining abilities beside just a second health pool which is really a big sponge that reduces your own damage too, such that using it means you stop attrition damage on your opponent at the same time. It’s more like a stall than a way to win.

Several builds you really can’t generate life force back at all, maybe 10% at best through an entire fight, often less. Laughable compared to some of the healing and regen other classes get. To get more more LF regen, means sacrificing damage to absurd levels.

If you can get people to stand in your wells, in a well build, maybe Necro can approximate attrition, but that is only viable in sPVP, nowhere else in the game, you simply walk / roll out of them.

(edited by Pendragon.8735)

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Posted by: Overkillengine.6084

Overkillengine.6084

or more ways to apply chill and cripple at least- enough that even if the enemy has a cleanse ready we can have a chance at keeping them in range.

Not an Attrition class

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Posted by: Yendorion.2381

Yendorion.2381

Well said OP… Apparently for designers attrition means ‘bigger delay on the inevitable’, that is taking a beating… case in point, WvW trying to run on open grounds with a group, if you are met with oppponent it usually ends up with the rival mob chasing you and your allies running the other way cause the Necro is like a panzer truck with a burst cannon.

The elite disco lich form (with no heal), antbrained minion and a teleport wurm to which you can bring popcorn to watch summon aren’t of much help either.

I simply stopped caring expecting fixes, since it’s quiet obvious the professional stands on ANet’s stomach (I still remember the ‘oh but your DS is a secondary healthbar, too OP makes up for everything’) That I alted on my mesmer and the game is back to being fun again… perhaps someday.

(edited by Yendorion.2381)

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Posted by: Ithir Darkleaf.7923

Ithir Darkleaf.7923

Let’s wait to the 28th and see what changes. Personally, I have a big hope since this is the next big balance patch after they said their goal is to make necros an attrition class.

~ The light of a new day

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Posted by: Visionary.5681

Visionary.5681

I have high hopes.

Low expectations.

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Posted by: Engels.8537

Engels.8537

This class has such poor recovery options and ordinary sustained damage (while lacking burst), that I don’t understand how it can be called an attrition class or a hard class to put down.

That’s because we have plenty of access to chill and cripple, and because in theory dark pact works,

Of course any who plays a necromancer knows that everybody can escape from us,

There is a reason why the necro is usually a priority target, and it isn’t just because he can strip boons and interrupt with fear. It’s because the class has such little escape options, and thus must facetank damage. But, the class has poor sustained tanking options.

I laughed when yesterday I targeted a necromancer with my rifle warrior, my friend said,

“The necro?! That’s because your main is a necro ! why should we focus on the kitten class?” I said “Because he can’t avoid the kittenload of damage”,

Want to look at attrition classes? They are called bunkers. D/D or s/d ele, guardian, and BM specced evasion tank rangers are attrition classes — BECAUSE THEY CAN RECOVER after absorbing damage. The necro has the capacity to absorb a good amount of initial damage with death shroud and a large health pool, but once life force is gone, your HP is not going back up. Your damage is mediocre relative to other classes, and you will be worn down.

That’s because i just stack toughness, stack a bunch vitality that’s not coming back once is gone is useless,

Life steals for the necromancer need to be substantially higher, and so does life force gain need to be outside traited staff. Life force should regenerate outside combat — a necro without life force is a sitting duck because of no Blurred Frenzy, no Diversion, no vigor, no shadowstep, no plate armor, no blocks, no aegis and no endure pain, and no teleports/gap creation tools. Starting matches or skirmishes at 0 life force is an unnecessary disadvantage that should be removed.

This is not going to happen in wvw and open world, so forget it,

On the other hand this is a must in Spvp,

Another issue is the class mechanic, Death Shroud. By entering death shroud, your already poor damage drops substantially. You don’t apply nearly as much conditions — you block yourself out of mainhand dagger damage (which is infinitely better than life blast), your bleeds expire without being renewed.

Classes like the ele and mesmer, guardian and thief and warrior can remain offensive with their defensive tools, which means they can continue to pressure while playing defensively. The necromancer drops his offense the moment he resorts to survival tools. His stun breakers are on ridiculously long cooldowns as well.

+1 Also we need to be able to select from 2 kinds of DS, one based on power and another one based on conditions

My F1 says “You become a puching ball that cannot do damage, when it ends your enemy is fully healed without any condition and you are dead within 10 seconds”


Just look the mesmer,

Access to burning, access to confusion, access to stealth, access to escape abilities, a deadly F1 mechanic, a lot of boons, fast cast times, access to damage mitigation,

On the other hand we have good access to chill, decent access to fear and a couple thousands hit points more,

Oh, and we have a slow motion class, a kittenload of useless abilities, a trait tree completly messed up, a bunch of bugs, long cooldowns, eternal casting times, almost no access to boons, etcetera etcetera etcetera…


Just wait for the patch and the nerf to AoE, it will be epic, even maybe we’ll miss the old kittenty necro,

Don’t talk to me about toughness and vitality, damage avoidance is all in this game

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Posted by: TheAgedGnome.7520

TheAgedGnome.7520

Just for reference:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/999247
The necro boasts the highest natural health of all the caster classes, and also has death shroud to extend that life total even higher. While they don’t have some of the escape or damage reduction capabilities that other classes boast, they do have a lot of ways to win attrition fights. They have access to poison on multiple weapons, they are able to combine condition damage with raw damage, and they have multiple disables to interrupt enemy skills. Necromancers also have multiple movement disabling abilities, while allows them to chase down enemies who are low on health.

I’d like to see the necro get some Confusion or some decent retaliation abilities. (I’m leveling an Asura necro now for the Pain Inverter racial skill.) Some CD reductions are also needed on our defensive abilities.

We do have Weakness – which is pretty nice – in Enfeebling Blood, Withering Precision & CPC. But WP requires foregoing Lingering Curse and CPC needs much improvement (I’d like to see it be an instant AoE whose conditions last for 12s, rather than a stationary AoE that pulses for 12sec).

To me, it almost seems as if the “attrition class” notion was a post hoc attempt to justify the necro’s current design state.

Stealth nerfs are the perfect fertilizer for mistrust.
PVE Power and Support Build

(edited by TheAgedGnome.7520)

Not an Attrition class

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Posted by: Talentless.5708

Talentless.5708

I have high hopes.

Low expectations.

+1 if you’re talking about Necros who post complaining about the strength of the class.
-1 if you’re talking about getting extra stuff other than a few bug fixes, like Spectral Grasp, etc.

Talentless Necro – Talentless Engineer
Jade Quarry – Strike Force | Wilsonian Institute
new video pending: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDVc34_SFKM&feature=youtu.be