Guild Wars 2

I like how people deny how easy this class is to play. It takes no skill to press blind well or stun break if you’re getting mauled by melee AND THEN punish them back.

Schwahrheit.4203:

I like how people deny how easy this class is to play. It takes no skill to press blind well or stun break if you’re getting mauled by melee AND THEN punish them back.

DS stomp weakness, might, retaliate is pretty hard IMO.

But the real builds that are actually useful for more than noob stomping in hot matches… they are piss easy fo sho.

Schwahrheit.4203:

I like how people deny how easy this class is to play. It takes no skill to press blind well or stun break if you’re getting mauled by melee AND THEN punish them back.

LOL?
I miss the punish them back part. You mean punishing them back with 300 damage per hit with your mighty Axe? Or spamming autoattack with dagger?

Oh, yep, I remember you. You are the Warrior guy. Funny that someone who said that GS is fine come here to say that Necros are easy.

XiL.4318:

Also the artificial parameter I was eluding to would have to do with limiting minion pathing, range, and collisions to make them hold their priority formation…remain with the player…avoid teleporting behaviors…etc; and likely keep them from performing quite so well, or as quickly as NPCs.

Um, no. The discussion was not about minions versus independent NPCs. It was about minions versus other professions’ summons/illusions/pets, which seem to work better than minions. You said that it was because minions must have some “artificial parameter”, which sounds like some useless, arbitrary parameter that minions have that pets don’t. You said this was obvious because surely all minions/illusions/pets would share the same underlying code and since there is an apparent difference in reliability, it must be because minions have an “artificial parameter”.

Now that you say you mean “additional, minion-specific parameter”, it makes some sense, but just talking about an “artificial parameter” is not very helpful.

XiL.4318:

Could you imagine if each necro minion behaved fully like an NPC of their class type? Farmers wouldn’t need bots anymore. Just 1 afk Minion Master Necro. Which I just assumed was obvious.

So yes. I think you are silly.

Again, you’re imprecise and unclear. You may be referring to the difference between minions and independent NPCs, but that was never the issue. (Yes, at one point you mentioned that the minions of NPCs don’t seem to have the issues that the minions of players do, but that’s yet another issue.) The issue has always been the apparent reliability difference between Necro Minions and other professions Pets/Summons/Illusions.

You may also be referring to me saying that NPC minions may actually be independent NPCs. That’s an implementation detail and it’s completely possible that, for various reasons, the minions of NPCs are in fact independent NPCs that are simply labeled/skinned to appear to be minions. There’s no requirement that player minion code be reused by NPC minions.

I dont thik the class is broken to the point is not playeble but to say that the class is k is nothing short then being on Denial.

Necromancer is only being play at 60% of its true potential, meanwhile classes like guardian and warrior are being play at 90% of there true potential .

Necromancer is my favor class but is nothing but on a kitteny stage. this class need’s to much fixing to do and they have done very little and on a slow paste to fix the issue

I got my Necro to Level 20 finally and that only because i have a few 80is already and got bored so i rolled a necro alt to try out this class.

I am shocked how bad the design of this class is, The signets, the traits the Utilities they all look like designed in the last minute before release.

>> Pet agro is almost impossible to overwrite by the player, i can do what i want the enemy wont get off my pets and so after every fight my pets are at 5-50% HP

>> whats the point of playing with almost dead pets all time ? Why arent these beings healing up ? Give all Necro Pets regen now ! i am sick and tired of running around with a almost beaten pet army.

>> Blood fiend can heal me but not himself ?? Blood fiend should be an group AoE heal effect to round up the necro.

>> Blood fiend takes more agro than anything else, he should not take any agro at all, and the Blood fiend needs to heal himself

>> Bone Minions often do nothing, they just stand there and die… ??!!!? What is that ?? Anet wasnt able to fix this until now ??

>> Lack of good passive Signets.. A little bit Power and 10% runspeed are the only usefull signets so far.

>> Utilities are all on horrible long cooldowns, most of them need to be reduced by at least 50%

>> Dead Shroud is a complete fail. Its slow it ends to fast and the skills are mostly fail designed. The LF AoE is the only i use and thats on 35s cooldown…. omg !

>> the Trait Vampiric Precicion Siphons 8 HP on a critical at level 20 ???? What is 8HP at level good for ?? my goodness this should heal for at least 25HP per crit

>> Traits , i checked them all and i see many things that should be exchanged

>> Who needs DS traits ?? Lifeforce ?? I want normal Hit Points as Necro and not Lifeforce ! overall i have no interest to use this Dead Shroud at all.

>> Minions , whats the point of these endless long cooldowns after a minion died before i can resummon him ? Why cant i just recast and summon my pets like in othergames ? why do you let me wait 30 seconds before i can continue to play ?

From all classes i played Necromancer makes no sense at all.

Ranger 80, Warrior 20, Engineer 20 , Elementalist32, Thief 80 , Guardian 47, Mesmer 35

All classes need some fixes but Necro really needs a complete re-design…

Start to give Necro Minions HP regen out of combat and improve their AI…….

i prefer to level my Elementalist next……

p.s i just tried Reanimator “JAGGED HORROR” >> The minion is dead before i can attack another Mob because its bleeding ? What is that please ? and even on a 30 sec cooldown ?? come on…….

(edited about a minute ago by Tuccos.8592)

^ well i just started a necro myself and i think it’s a very well designed class with tons of synergy between abilities, and with your team. also, minion mancers are beastly from what ive encountered on my other profs. perhaps you need to l2p.

nerva.7940:

^ well i just started a necro myself and i think it’s a very well designed class with tons of synergy between abilities, and with your team. also, minion mancers are beastly from what ive encountered on my other profs. perhaps you need to l2p.

Then he joined PvP and deleted the Necromancer.

this thread reminds me how much fun i had leveling an epidemic necro to 44 in WvW. i felt really useful even at low levels. in sPvP i experimented with the minion tank build, and i turned into one of those bunkers who can neither kill nor be killed, which i found hilarious. i discovered the beauty of wells, but the one thing i never tried was a power build, and i regret under-utilizing the axe. i’m really tempted to ditch my mesmer now….

sorrow.2364:

nerva.7940:

^ well i just started a necro myself and i think it’s a very well designed class with tons of synergy between abilities, and with your team. also, minion mancers are beastly from what ive encountered on my other profs. perhaps you need to l2p.

Then he joined PvP and deleted the Necromancer.

rocking spvp now, finishing first almost every game. tpvp QP ranks speak for themselves. plenty of good necros up there. sorry to disappoint u hater.

nerva.7940:

rocking spvp now, finishing first almost every game. tpvp QP ranks speak for themselves. plenty of good necros up there. sorry to disappoint u hater.

I do pretty well as a Necro in sPvP as a gasp MM build… but that hardly means that MM is fixed and ANet should not worry about minion AI.

And no one argues that Necros make a decent bunker which is why they are taken in 5s.

That doesn’t mean that our traits our great or our team utility is awesome (I am curious what utility you speak of actually).

im not saying everything is fine and dandy, but that hater just wants to see necros fail. that’s just not the case.

nerva.7940:

im not saying everything is fine and dandy, but that hater just wants to see necros fail. that’s just not the case.

Or, probably, you are just trolling everyone saying that Necros are fine while obviously aren’t.
You said QP ranks, there are only few Necros on a majority of Guardians, Thieves, Mesmers and Elementalists. You should have took a look at it. Necro are underepresented in tPvP.
The point is that there is absolutely no point to play a Necro when everything you want to spec into there is some other profession which can do it way better.
But, of course, you are a troll, so there is pretty much no point into arguing with you. It is pretty obvious seeing the way you entered in the argument.

Just giving my opinion here. I think the deathshroud ability is mostly useless. The reason being that almost every player knows what it does. When you start that giga drain pokemon skill you’ll get interupted within a second or people just start dodging. I only use it for the fear that only lasts for 2 seconds.

No choice in good elite skills is also something that bugs me. Where is Spiteful Spirit for instance. Next to this if you don’t use a dot build you could just as well play an elementalist. Necros don’t need a buff in damage, just more options, as of now I find the class very limited in its options.

Sheobix.8796:

First off, I’d like to state that necros are not “broken”.

Awesome. Glad to know I can finally come back to this game and play a Minionmancer and be as effective at DPSing as a warrior . When was the patch where they fixed minions again? I still cant find the notes.

QSpec.4298:

nerva.7940:

rocking spvp now, finishing first almost every game. tpvp QP ranks speak for themselves. plenty of good necros up there. sorry to disappoint u hater.

I do pretty well as a Necro in sPvP as a gasp MM build… but that hardly means that MM is fixed and ANet should not worry about minion AI.

And no one argues that Necros make a decent bunker which is why they are taken in 5s.

That doesn’t mean that our traits our great or our team utility is awesome (I am curious what utility you speak of actually).

It’s very rare to see a necro bunker in 5s. ATM they’re mostly taken for their utility and high sustained damage. Something like Powerrs build does probably ~1000 damage per scepter autoattack on a 3k armor bunker with protection if the conditions last their duration, and scepter ignores things like sanctuary (as an aside, when a guard blows sanc+stability and tries to book, if you corrupt boon, you probably just won the game). Combined with staff 5, big damage on staff 4, signet of undeath, and both damaging wells, his build also dominates down state contests, making it the highest priority target for the other team most of the time.

Khalifas necro will rock a teamfight when he uses lich of all things, unless you have a necro of your own to corrupt/remove his stability so he can be cced, or plague and spam blinds on him. You could moa him, but then you’d be running moa. Funny comment from a thief after his first time meeting Khalifa: “WTF is deathly claws and why did it twoshot me from over half health?”

Other fantastic utility besides the wells and signet include all the marks, focus 5, focus 4, dagger 5, dagger 4, dagger 3, DS 2, DS 3, scepter 2, scepter 1(3), plague signet, plague, flesh golem, and corrupt boon. That’s just off the top of my head, and deliberately excluding things like epidemic and spectral grasp because they’re a little more niche, despite how good they are in teams that can take advantage of them.

Necros have an abundance of utility, plenty of damage, and plenty of survivability. There are probably more necros being run than thieves in NA 5s right now.

Right now my only serious issue with Necro’s is that bleed cap. It’s frustrating to not be able to do optimal damage because my 10-15 bleeds are competing for cap space with other people’s bleed builds. It’s like Anet ever considered more then 2 people might attack a mob with condition builds at the same time.

More importantly, bleeding is the only viable way to do condition damage for a number of classes. Thief, Ranger, Necro, Warrior…Only Ele and Guard can reliably do lots of burn damage, even then you still need to supplement burn with bleeds to do a straight condition build.

Why couldn’t they just copy WoW’s DoT system? It works great and is fair to all the DoT classes. Every class should have it’s own unique DoT’s, not every class sharing the same pool of 3 damaging DoT’s….

Dredlord.8076:

Druitt.7629:

Fiery Greatsword is a niche at best. It has a cooldown, a time limit, a charge limit, and it replaces your 20 weapon skills (counting attunements) while active.

Holy kitten cat katface!!!

you guys get 20 weapon skills????

surely to get to use the extra 10 you lose access to your heals and utility skills as that is double what most other classes get for weapon skills?

I mean at the very least while using all these extra weapon skills your UI is mostly removed right? one shouldn’t get that many weapon skills and still be able to see things like endurance and buff and conditions, amiright?

U sir have won an internet, pls redeem it on my FB page.

IMO necro’s are the type of mess that’s going to need an expansion before the devs ever put enough thought into it to fix. Two lowest played classes are necro and engi because both are the worst when it comes to mobility, and in a game like this mobility is blood, I don’t care how much HP or toughness you give some one the only real tankiness or surviveability in this game comes from the ability to recover damage, or the ability to avoid damage or disengage. Of witch necro is the flat out worst in the game, bar NOTHING, no class has weaker or fewer mobility options than necro, although in this argument Engi’s have to use a lot of weird tricks and be pretty quick with turning their camera’s around…

Being bad at playing Necro does not indicate the class is bad, but rather, you have some Play left 2 Learn.

ndrangles.5183:

this thread reminds me how much fun i had leveling an epidemic necro to 44 in WvW. i felt really useful even at low levels. in sPvP i experimented with the minion tank build, and i turned into one of those bunkers who can neither kill nor be killed, which i found hilarious. i discovered the beauty of wells, but the one thing i never tried was a power build, and i regret under-utilizing the axe. i’m really tempted to ditch my mesmer now….

Axe/Focus power vit tough build with Life Force procs and dodge mark hurts butts in ways that there’s no over the counter cream for.

condition necros aren’t hard to play, it’s mainly kiting and positioning.

power necros aren’t viable in tpvp they’re too squishy.

powerr’s build is also trash, it’s way too squishy.

Oblivion.8307:

condition necros aren’t hard to play, it’s mainly kiting and positioning.

power necros aren’t viable in tpvp they’re too squishy.

powerr’s build is also trash, it’s way too squishy.

^

Only Power Build that works against decent players is power/DS build with life force traits and max toughness. And it is not as good as the other condi/wells builds at maintaining pressure or synergy so you lose a lot in team fights to gain a moderate amount of damage. You also have to given up conditions for toughness and that is kinda brutal for necro.

Tuccos.8592:

I got my Necro to Level 20 finally and that only because i have a few 80is already and got bored so i rolled a necro alt to try out this class.

I am shocked how bad the design of this class is, The signets, the traits the Utilities they all look like designed in the last minute before release.

>> Pet agro is almost impossible to overwrite by the player, i can do what i want the enemy wont get off my pets and so after every fight my pets are at 5-50% HP

>> whats the point of playing with almost dead pets all time ? Why arent these beings healing up ? Give all Necro Pets regen now ! i am sick and tired of running around with a almost beaten pet army.

>> Blood fiend can heal me but not himself ?? Blood fiend should be an group AoE heal effect to round up the necro.

>> Blood fiend takes more agro than anything else, he should not take any agro at all, and the Blood fiend needs to heal himself

>> Bone Minions often do nothing, they just stand there and die… ??!!!? What is that ?? Anet wasnt able to fix this until now ??

>> Lack of good passive Signets.. A little bit Power and 10% runspeed are the only usefull signets so far.

>> Utilities are all on horrible long cooldowns, most of them need to be reduced by at least 50%

>> Dead Shroud is a complete fail. Its slow it ends to fast and the skills are mostly fail designed. The LF AoE is the only i use and thats on 35s cooldown…. omg !

>> the Trait Vampiric Precicion Siphons 8 HP on a critical at level 20 ???? What is 8HP at level good for ?? my goodness this should heal for at least 25HP per crit

>> Traits , i checked them all and i see many things that should be exchanged

>> Who needs DS traits ?? Lifeforce ?? I want normal Hit Points as Necro and not Lifeforce ! overall i have no interest to use this Dead Shroud at all.

>> Minions , whats the point of these endless long cooldowns after a minion died before i can resummon him ? Why cant i just recast and summon my pets like in othergames ? why do you let me wait 30 seconds before i can continue to play ?

From all classes i played Necromancer makes no sense at all.

Ranger 80, Warrior 20, Engineer 20 , Elementalist32, Thief 80 , Guardian 47, Mesmer 35

All classes need some fixes but Necro really needs a complete re-design…

Start to give Necro Minions HP regen out of combat and improve their AI…….

i prefer to level my Elementalist next……

p.s i just tried Reanimator “JAGGED HORROR” >> The minion is dead before i can attack another Mob because its bleeding ? What is that please ? and even on a 30 sec cooldown ?? come on…….

(edited about a minute ago by Tuccos.8592)

wow. play it past 20 and come back here, or else don’t complain about all of the less-useful parts of the class. (troll attempt.. why are you trying to play with minions.. read a little in the forums a bit)

I can go ahead and whine about the thief in a similar fashion. (omg guys i played to 20 thief and the only good utilities and skills are cluster bomb, heartseeker, c&d, backstab, … with utilities always blinding powder, shadow refuge, and speed sig…. kitten the elites!)

we have a lot more potential than a berserker d/d + sbow thief or zerger warrior.

Dabrixmgp.4758:

Sheobix.8796:

First off, I’d like to state that necros are not “broken”.

Awesome. Glad to know I can finally come back to this game and play a Minionmancer and be as effective at DPSing as a warrior . When was the patch where they fixed minions again? I still cant find the notes.

now i know you’re trying to piss me off, but really, go read the rest of the post instead of looking at one line and trying to misconstrue it to what you can rage about.

Again, do you really think minions are a good idea if you want to play competitively? hmm.. no, unless you use flesh golem for some special purpose.

And think about this: if we could all faceroll like a warrior by just spawning minions, you’d realize every single necro would do this, right? minion’s damage do not scale with any attribute, their damage is locked to level scaling.

So every necro would be able to put their trait points into anything (wtf?) and just make all their utils minions and /faceroll

just… you need to shut up.

I’m reaaaally getting tired of people complaining that things are broken because they can’t just run berserker’s and spam ONE skill to win. (hm… i’m thinking of crap thieves that die in two hits…)

Zoke.2147:

Dredlord.8076:

Druitt.7629:

Fiery Greatsword is a niche at best. It has a cooldown, a time limit, a charge limit, and it replaces your 20 weapon skills (counting attunements) while active.

Holy kitten cat katface!!!

you guys get 20 weapon skills????

surely to get to use the extra 10 you lose access to your heals and utility skills as that is double what most other classes get for weapon skills?

I mean at the very least while using all these extra weapon skills your UI is mostly removed right? one shouldn’t get that many weapon skills and still be able to see things like endurance and buff and conditions, amiright?

U sir have won an internet, pls redeem it on my FB page.

IMO necro’s are the type of mess that’s going to need an expansion before the devs ever put enough thought into it to fix. Two lowest played classes are necro and engi because both are the worst when it comes to mobility, and in a game like this mobility is blood, I don’t care how much HP or toughness you give some one the only real tankiness or surviveability in this game comes from the ability to recover damage, or the ability to avoid damage or disengage. Of witch necro is the flat out worst in the game, bar NOTHING, no class has weaker or fewer mobility options than necro, although in this argument Engi’s have to use a lot of weird tricks and be pretty quick with turning their camera’s around…

dagger2, DS, spectral utils LF gen, plague, Dark Armor trait, LF transfer trait used at end of DS bar “lifewrap” effect, and…. oh god, it can’t be…. CONSUME CONDITIONS.

yeah. our heal skill can heal the most in the game without a single point of healing power. if you figure out how long you can wait until you pop it and gain conditions.. just laugh as the opponent balks when you heal for nearly all of your hp.

Control Core.1079:

Just giving my opinion here. I think the deathshroud ability is mostly useless. The reason being that almost every player knows what it does. When you start that giga drain pokemon skill you’ll get interupted within a second or people just start dodging. I only use it for the fear that only lasts for 2 seconds.

No choice in good elite skills is also something that bugs me. Where is Spiteful Spirit for instance. Next to this if you don’t use a dot build you could just as well play an elementalist. Necros don’t need a buff in damage, just more options, as of now I find the class very limited in its options.

A good opponent will always interrupt your dag2/ds4/axe2 channels. a better strat would be to trait bleeding on crit, use sigils of earth, and then knockdown your opponent and use DS4/dag2.

You’ll stack bleeds, do moderate damage, and/or regen about ~2k health.

as for crappy elites, we have two of the best, actually. Plague form – 2x HP and toughness, and button mashing for weakness/blindness/bleeding? mmmm yum.
Lich form? twice the offensive stats? knockdown, spawn 5 jagged horrors, autoattack their HP to nothing? yeah.

lets look at the thief…
Daggerstorm – stupid short stability, melee can walk next to you and clobber you in seconds.

Thieve’s guild – kill your thieves in moments. what a joke?

sorrow.2364:

nerva.7940:

im not saying everything is fine and dandy, but that hater just wants to see necros fail. that’s just not the case.

Or, probably, you are just trolling everyone saying that Necros are fine while obviously aren’t.
You said QP ranks, there are only few Necros on a majority of Guardians, Thieves, Mesmers and Elementalists. You should have took a look at it. Necro are underepresented in tPvP.
The point is that there is absolutely no point to play a Necro when everything you want to spec into there is some other profession which can do it way better.
But, of course, you are a troll, so there is pretty much no point into arguing with you. It is pretty obvious seeing the way you entered in the argument.

you’re the only troll, trying to knock down every valid strategy listed by any player here.

Any class can min/max to do something better than us. But you still fail to see that they become a one-trick-pony.

We have a lot of tools that more than make up for our jack of all trades build design.

Kisses.1054:

Necro dps sucks.
And since this is by now a pve game THIS IS IMPORTANT.
I dont care if everything is viable, i care how fast they can do it.

Proposed solution: buff all necro skill damage by 100% in pve only.
Pvp: who cares it is a joke anyway

we are actually the best class to play in pve as it is…

and in pvp, if you’re moderately skilled (which most are not and therefore ragequit) you can outdo any opponent with minor challenge.

sorrow.2364:

Sheobix.8796:

obviously you’re a player in the minority of necromancers that suck, otherwise you wouldn’t be arguing that the class sucks. all of those conditions you’re trying to discredit are actually great tools to use when you’re fighting someone. if you’re ignoring them, then you’re not using about 1/3 of the utilities/skills in your bar.

immobilize does have defensive capability. if you use it on someone, break their line of sight (as in, get behind them), they can’t cast the majority of their utilities or skills on you. not to mention the extra second it takes for them to turn around and look at you.

2s daze is great. it’s not crap at all. you talk about it like it’s not enough.

if you stack chills, http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chill its a 66% snare and 66% cooldown debuff. if you’re so set on arguing that other classes can just dance around you, chain their uber skills like there’s no tomorrow, maybe you should try chills sometime, and watch them hit a slog.

we have two main fears: staff5 which is an AoE (always useful for gaining footing in a 1v3) and Ds3. Ds3 is nearly instant cast. (hit F1 and 3, it registers pretty quick) and provides you a fear that works as an interrupt, even if you’re on the ground.

I would like to point out a valid part of your argument, about mesmers having a bountiful amount of CC as well as the clones and invuln, and i have found them really difficult to kill even when i have my eye on them. i pray that they get nerfed again someday. but still, this does not make the necro a crap class. it only states the mesmer as an exceptionally strong class.

Without considering the uncalled insinuation about my skill, you have listed all the Necromancers defensive capability which still are way subpar compared to other professions.
Want some raw comparisons?

Take, for instance, the Warrior, which is more similiar to Necromancer due to the high health pool.
An hammer warrior can easily outperform all the CC capability of Necromancer with just weapon skills, all this without considering the tons of CC skills Warriors have as utilities (lol Fear Me, Kick, Stomp, Bull’s Charge). So, if in your opinion CCs can be considered as defensive features, Warriors are still better than Necromancers.
Warriors are in a better position also when talking about Immobilization.
Just to say few:
Throw Bolas, Pin Down, all cripples + Leg Specialist.

So, as you can see, about CCs and Immobilizations, warriors are still above Necromancers, while having better armor, better damage reduction skills, invulnerability, better mobility etc.

As I said many times, snares isn’t a great deal because of the huge amount of leaps, huge amount of condition removals and short duration of chills. Also, I have noticed that usually Chill doesn’t trigger the increased cooldown time, just try from yourself.

So yes, Necromancers are weak when comparing to other professions.

Sheobix.8796:

wow! 200 toughness! and a shield! what an OP advantage warriors have over us, ranged and melee, controller, condition toting, spectral walking, life leeching, blood boiling reapers of souls with many many many lifebars! -_-

oh god, not to mention we are CLOTH WEARERS. we’re like, on the other end of the armor spectrum, right? i’m surprised there isn’t more of a gap. (as i trait in Dark armor for the extra 400 toughness to piss on the nearest warrior with his disk of metal)

So.
9% extra damage reduction on 900 bonus toughness and 18% with no bonus toughness are worse than a trait which gives you 400 toughness while channeling and prevents you to take Greater Marks… lol

About the list of Necromancers “advantages” just read above.
LOL @ Life Leeching

and you still proceed to list every source of one single condition, and fail to realize if you rely on using all of them, that’s all you will have.

if you’re so set on complaining about every single imaginable thing about the necro, why even come to the forums? what, to learn? obviously not, because so far you’ve claimed to know exactly how pointless everything on the class is.

So you log in to troll.

please leave, there are players who want to learn, and they can.

Sheobix.8796:

you’re the only troll, trying to knock down every valid strategy listed by any player here.

Any class can min/max to do something better than us. But you still fail to see that they become a one-trick-pony.

We have a lot of tools that more than make up for our jack of all trades build design.

I’m not the troll here because of the simple reason that I’m not flaming and I’m just expressing my opinion without bashing anyone who disagrees with me, but I rather try to expose my argumentations in order to let people understand why I think they are wrong.
You, on the other hand, as the other guy who came out with the classic l2p argument, are the perfect example of forum trolls.

Other professions aren’t one-trick-pony. Necromancers fail also at balanced spec.
Everything you can build as a Necromancers, some other profession do it better. Everything.

Conditions -> Thieves do it better (while retaining better survivability and condition cleansing through stealth). Many other professions like Ranger, Warrior, Mesmer, Engineer and Elementalist (practically everything except Guardians) are capable of stacking bleeding better.

Power build -> almost every profession, we are in the lowest tier of raw damage based builds

Bunker -> Guardian, Engineer and Elementalist do it better. Thieves can have also better survivability at the cost of not be capable of contesting a node in tPvP.

Roamer -> Just lol. Everything is a better roamer than a Necro, probably also a chicken.

This is most likely the new “holy trinity” in Guild Wars 2. Any middle way among those spec is a complete suicide in this metagame.

Sheobix.8796:

and you still proceed to list every source of one single condition, and fail to realize if you rely on using all of them, that’s all you will have.

if you’re so set on complaining about every single imaginable thing about the necro, why even come to the forums? what, to learn? obviously not, because so far you’ve claimed to know exactly how pointless everything on the class is.

So you log in to troll.

please leave, there are players who want to learn, and they can.

Probably I’m not starting from the assumption that the game, which is out from 3 months, is perfectly balanced and, probably Necros, who were too strong in the beta, were overnerfed.

I’ve proved you that any Warrior is capable to do what a Necromancer do better. They can also combine what they are better into while being better also into that.
Globally, if a>b and c>d, a+c>b+d always.

sorrow.2364:

Conditions -> Thieves do it better (while retaining better survivability and condition cleansing through stealth). Many other professions like Ranger, Warrior, Mesmer, Engineer and Elementalist (practically everything except Guardians) are capable of stacking bleeding better.

You’re talking only about stacking your own conditions, with a touch of removing your own conditions, NOT conditions as a whole. Offensively, a Necro can AoE turn boons into conditions, and a Necro can take conditions on a single target — perhaps stacked by Ranger, Warrior, Mesmer, Engineers, or Elementalists — and spread them to multiple targets. Defensively, a Necro can not only AoE cleanse conditions, but actually go one better and turn them into boons.

Your view of conditions is rather narrow. I’ll admit that in my play experience, I have not done much of this condition/boon manipulation and transfer, but if you’re going to try to paint the picture that Necros suck at conditions, you’ve got to address conditions as a whole.

sorrow.2364:

Roamer -> Just lol. Everything is a better roamer than a Necro, probably also a chicken.

It’d be helpful if you specified what is key to a roamer, in your opinion? Speed, mobility, burst? (Obviously, if it’s speed, the Necro can be near perma-swifted, so I guess you’re not talking speed. Still, without some specifics, your statement is content-free.)

Sheobix.8796:

as for crappy elites, we have two of the best, actually. Plague form – 2x HP and toughness, and button mashing for weakness/blindness/bleeding? mmmm yum.
Lich form? twice the offensive stats? knockdown, spawn 5 jagged horrors, autoattack their HP to nothing? yeah.

lets look at the thief…
Daggerstorm – stupid short stability, melee can walk next to you and clobber you in seconds.

Thieve’s guild – kill your thieves in moments. what a joke?

I do agree that Plague (defensive) and Lich (offensive) are worth getting. But I disagree that Thieves’ Daggerstorm and Thieve’s Guild suck, I think they’re on par with ours. (Daggerstorm combined with healing traits is pretty impressive.) If you want to compare a worthless 30-point Elite, you need go no farther than Elementalist Tornado.

Tornado has the low-interest-level of Plague (choose one of three modes and that’s all you can do), but without sustainability, since it can blow back opponents farther than its effect radius. I guess it has its uses in constrained, high places and perhaps as a near-suicide move in a zerg, but it’s certainly not as useful as Plague, Lich, Daggerstorm, Thieves’ Guild, (Greater) Elemental, or most any Elite I can think of.

Druitt.7629:

You’re talking only about stacking your own conditions, with a touch of removing your own conditions, NOT conditions as a whole. Offensively, a Necro can AoE turn boons into conditions, and a Necro can take conditions on a single target — perhaps stacked by Ranger, Warrior, Mesmer, Engineers, or Elementalists — and spread them to multiple targets. Defensively, a Necro can not only AoE cleanse conditions, but actually go one better and turn them into boons.

Your view of conditions is rather narrow. I’ll admit that in my play experience, I have not done much of this condition/boon manipulation and transfer, but if you’re going to try to paint the picture that Necros suck at conditions, you’ve got to address conditions as a whole.

Reading your post, I can only agree that epidemic is a great skill and it is actually the only skill because Necro are worth taking into a team.
Necros can’t actually AoE clean conditions, or they can’t clean conditions better than other professions.
The AoE condition removals of Necros are Putrid Mark and Well of Power (excluding the Lich skill).
Well of Power is quite worthless because of the high recharge and just one condition cleaned per pulse x5 pulses, so the only good condition cleaning skill is Putrid Mark but, when comparing that skill to Cleansing Wave, Cleansing Water and Wave of elementalist, you see that overall Necro isn’t that much over the other professions when talking about AoE conditions cleaning.

Mesmers, on the other hand, have way better conditions/boon manipulation.
Just take a look at skills like Null Field, Phantasmal Disenchanter and Arcane Thievery.

Druitt.7629:

It’d be helpful if you specified what is key to a roamer, in your opinion? Speed, mobility, burst? (Obviously, if it’s speed, the Necro can be near perma-swifted, so I guess you’re not talking speed. Still, without some specifics, your statement is content-free.)

Swiftness is nothing when you have almost no mobility skills like Ride the Lightning, Infiltrator’s Arrow, Rush etc.
Those skills make a roamer a real roamer coupled with, of course, the ability to quicky burst down targets.
Necros haven’t them both.

> Mesmers, on the other hand, have way better conditions/boon manipulation.
Just take a look at skills like Null Field, Phantasmal Disenchanter and Arcane Thievery.

I’m new to necro but I’ve got a fair sum of experience with the other classes mentioned so far. So let me just address this..

Null field is fantastic, but has an unfun cooldown and in PvP no one will play in it (a subtle downside of most glamour fields: they are huge and obvious). No one takes Phantasmal Disenchanter because it is terrible compared to other phantasms (even post-patch). Arcane Thievery is not bad, but is more about boon theft than condition removal (Dear Auramentalists, <3 you).

Another good example of “better” condition removal is Engineers, so let’s talk about that. The Elixir Kit setups you see out there are great at sustained condition removal (and healing due to a bug, don’t expect that to remain the way it is), but when they do they sacrifice a lot of damage potential (i.e., fumigate might as well not be doing any damage) and offense for purging. So what they do is try to keep light fields up for combo and juggle back and forth between that and other more-damaging kits (probably elixir bombs in a pure support build, but maybe grenades). But without sustaining constant offensive output their actual dps takes a nosedive unless they’re crazily condition focused, in which case their dps will be shot anyways (grenades scale brokenly but travel slow and miss easily, so constant lobbing is essential to dps).

Necros get a lot of ways to manipulate conditions that do not preclude them doing other things, whereas a many other classes do condition removal as a “sacrifice” for “support.” In PvE, you can run a condition heavy dungeon and do a good job of condition removal while still doing great doing damage and adding control.

KirinDave.6451:

> Mesmers, on the other hand, have way better conditions/boon manipulation.
Just take a look at skills like Null Field, Phantasmal Disenchanter and Arcane Thievery.

I’m new to necro but I’ve got a fair sum of experience with the other classes mentioned so far. So let me just address this..

Null field is fantastic, but has an unfun cooldown and in PvP no one will play in it (a subtle downside of most glamour fields: they are huge and obvious). No one takes Phantasmal Disenchanter because it is terrible compared to other phantasms (even post-patch). Arcane Thievery is not bad, but is more about boon theft than condition removal (Dear Auramentalists, <3 you).

…

Necros get a lot of ways to manipulate conditions that do not preclude them doing other things, whereas a many other classes do condition removal as a “sacrifice” for “support.” In PvE, you can run a condition heavy dungeon and do a good job of condition removal while still doing great doing damage and adding control.

Null Field is actually a better version than Well of Power, which is on a 60s recharge and converts just one condition per pulse. This, obviously, counting only its support side.

The fact that none use Phantasmal Disenchanter doesn’t mean that it is quite good when comparing it to skills of another profession. You have to take into account the environment.
For instance, Thieves say that Unload is weak when Necromancers have a skill like Ghastly Claws or Life Siphon which deal way less damage on a longer time window and with also a recharge. That’s because Thieves have a bunch of other skills which deals an huge amount of damage while Necromancers have only those skills.

I didn’t understand why you say that other professions have to sacrifice other aspects in order to do good conditions removal why Necros don’t. I mean, I don’t think that Elementalists have to sacrifice something in order to have their huge conditions removal capability, Mesmers also.

sorrow.2364:

Null Field is actually a better version than Well of Power, which is on a 60s recharge and converts just one condition per pulse.

Null field strips conditions, it doesn’t convert them. It’s a great skill, don’t get me wrong. It’s just relatively short and part of a whole build.

sorrow.2364:

The fact that none use Phantasmal Disenchanter doesn’t mean that it is quite good when comparing it to skills of another profession. You have to take into account the environment.

I am. It’s a terrible skill. If you have not used it, you should try it in a dungeon or pvp environment and see what I mean. You basically have no idea if it will actually help the person who needs help. Also, those bounce skills need a GM trait to really come into their own.

sorrow.2364:

I didn’t understand why you say that other professions have to sacrifice other aspects in order to do good conditions removal why Necros don’t. I mean, I don’t think that Elementalists have to sacrifice something in order to have their huge conditions removal capability, Mesmers also.

Elementalists give up a lot of damage potential to be able to do consistent condition removal for allies. Their popular PvP builds are much more about boon stacking.

Mesmers, I am not sure what besides Null Field you’d expect to see a Mesmer routinely take that’d do really well in this. Null field is great because it does what it does AND is a combo field.

I just want to make it crystal-clear what I am saying: Necros can build a decent amount of condition mitigation into their builds with relatively little cost. There are better single skills out there in the GW2 universe, but they often have only vague synergy with a whole build.

Sheobix.8796:

yeah. our heal skill can heal the most in the game without a single point of healing power. if you figure out how long you can wait until you pop it and gain conditions.. just laugh as the opponent balks when you heal for nearly all of your hp.

I just wanted to leave a quick note to support this statement. I got ganked by a mesmer in WvW yesterday and he dropped that dome on me that applies random conditions. I was already at half hp so I stood in it on purpose to let the conditions stack up, then dazed him with Warhorn 4 and healed up. Full hp and I went on to win the fight. That is all, carry on.

sorrow.2364:

Necros can’t actually AoE clean conditions, or they can’t clean conditions better than other professions.
The AoE condition removals of Necros are Putrid Mark and Well of Power (excluding the Lich skill).

Uh…I think you forgot about Plague Signet, which passively AoE cleanses conditions from your teammates, at which point you can either eat them for a boost to healing, send them back to an enemy three different ways, or convert them into boons.

Has it been fixed yet from merely copying conditions?

lettucemode.3789:

sorrow.2364:

Necros can’t actually AoE clean conditions, or they can’t clean conditions better than other professions.
The AoE condition removals of Necros are Putrid Mark and Well of Power (excluding the Lich skill).

Uh…I think you forgot about Plague Signet, which passively AoE cleanses conditions from your teammates, at which point you can either eat them for a boost to healing, send them back to an enemy three different ways, or convert them into boons.

I am not too skilled with Necro yet but I was sort of quietly wondering this myself. I can only assume this is a PvPer’s omission since in terms of passive PvE group play it can be incredibly good.

KirinDave.6451:

sorrow.2364:

Null Field is actually a better version than Well of Power, which is on a 60s recharge and converts just one condition per pulse.

Null field strips conditions, it doesn’t convert them. It’s a great skill, don’t get me wrong. It’s just relatively short and part of a whole build.

sorrow.2364:

The fact that none use Phantasmal Disenchanter doesn’t mean that it is quite good when comparing it to skills of another profession. You have to take into account the environment.

I am. It’s a terrible skill. If you have not used it, you should try it in a dungeon or pvp environment and see what I mean. You basically have no idea if it will actually help the person who needs help. Also, those bounce skills need a GM trait to really come into their own.

sorrow.2364:

I didn’t understand why you say that other professions have to sacrifice other aspects in order to do good conditions removal why Necros don’t. I mean, I don’t think that Elementalists have to sacrifice something in order to have their huge conditions removal capability, Mesmers also.

Elementalists give up a lot of damage potential to be able to do consistent condition removal for allies. Their popular PvP builds are much more about boon stacking.

Mesmers, I am not sure what besides Null Field you’d expect to see a Mesmer routinely take that’d do really well in this. Null field is great because it does what it does AND is a combo field.

I just want to make it crystal-clear what I am saying: Necros can build a decent amount of condition mitigation into their builds with relatively little cost. There are better single skills out there in the GW2 universe, but they often have only vague synergy with a whole build.

Well, probably that’s why Necromancers are only playing conditions than.
Yeah, I have to agree that the average Sc/D+Staff combo has a good conditions control, but sadly it is the only good thing among bad ones and doesn’t raise the Necros on a better spot.
It feels frustrating when you spec into power build and you deal mediocre damage while having very bad defenses than pick up any other profession and perform way better without putting any efforts into to get better as I did with my Necromancer.

lettucemode.3789:

Uh…I think you forgot about Plague Signet, which passively AoE cleanses conditions from your teammates, at which point you can either eat them for a boost to healing, send them back to an enemy three different ways, or convert them into boons.

Has it been fixed yet from merely copying conditions?

Nope, it hasn’t been fixed. Right now I feel that skill more likely of a malus rather than an utility.

sorrow.2364:

Nope, it hasn’t been fixed. Right now I feel that skill more likely of a malus rather than an utility.

I am not sure what the bug conditions are there, but I can assure you last night it was working for my new necro’s AC run. I was removing burning and bleeding on multiple occasions. I know it worked because my friend noticed his burns being cleared early.

So if there is a bug there, it’s not consistent.

Maybe it’s like the Focus trait in Spite, which works in sPvP but not anywhere else, and Plague Signet is the opposite. Or perhaps it’s been fixed as a side effect of something else they changed a while ago.

In the wiki people are saying that it isn’t bugged anymore and someone said that it pull one condition each 3 seconds. I have to test it out in the mists to make sure.

sorrow.2364:

The AoE condition removals of Necros are Putrid Mark and Well of Power (excluding the Lich skill).
Well of Power is quite worthless because of the high recharge and just one condition cleaned per pulse x5 pulses, so the only good condition cleaning skill is Putrid Mark but, when comparing that skill to Cleansing Wave, Cleansing Water and Wave of elementalist, you see that overall Necro isn’t that much over the other professions when talking about AoE conditions cleaning.

My point was that we not only cleanse, but also transfer or reverse. It’s sort of like condition Judo: leveraging the power of others. If a Guardian comes at you with a boatload of boons, you can not just strip them (Null Field), but also turn then into conditions (Well of Corruption). Of course, the way in which this is done (cooldowns, how large is the area of effect, is it targeted, etc) matters. But if boons—>curses works well, it’s enormously powerful: your target(s) may have used up the time, cooldowns, and consumables of multiple players to achieve their boons and you drop your shoulder, sweep your leg, and flip them.

At least that’s the theory. I WvW for fun, and in WvW and the PvE I do, there just aren’t many boons on enemies to flip.

sorrow.2364:

Swiftness is nothing when you have almost no mobility skills like Ride the Lightning, Infiltrator’s Arrow, Rush etc.
Those skills make a roamer a real roamer coupled with, of course, the ability to quicky burst down targets.
Necros haven’t them both.

This is all I asked for: roaming requires Leap/Teleport abilities and burst damage. Clarification.

I would say that doing long-range travel requires perma-swiftness and Leap/Teleport abilities don’t add up to swiftness once you average in the cooldowns. PvP isn’t large-scale enough to require long-range travel, and WvW isn’t organized enough that it’s a strategic edge, so I’d agree that swiftness isn’t just as good as a Leap/Teleport.

Actually, I’ve been thinking about this and I would say that if Necromancers are to be what I’ve heard AN wants them to be (“hard to kill, and hard to get away from”), we need a new condition in the game, called Terror. Terror would provide a brief Fear, but would be distinguished from Fear by also disabling leaps, teleports, and stealth for N seconds. Or it could be an aura with short range and some kind of mechanism to prevent it from trapping melee for too long.

That way, you really have to make a unique decision of “do I really want to get into this?” when you are looking at ambushing a Necro or you see a Necro chasing you. You can choose to run and the Necro can’t stop you, but if you do engage, you will find it very hard to disengage.

Just to clear things up.

Null Field is incredible and nearly every mesmer uses it.

Arcane Thievery isn’t that amazing.

iDisenchanter is actually EXTREMELY good, 2 boon/cond strip per bounce every 5 (4) seconds. Not alot of people use it though, wouldn’t be that great for a constant shatter build or w/e. But for mesmer bunker builds it’s nasty.

And yeah I think Plague Signet is fixed, was basically 1 random condition every 5 seconds. TBH I don’t think it’s that great considering it’s an aoe pulse.

SPESHAL.9106:

How can you say Necros are not broken with a straight face?

I only have to bring up ONE example…Minion AI

Watching a flesh golem do NOTHING over and over and over again is a complete joke. Any slight bump in terrain totally ruins his charge too.

Even WOW 1.0 had better pet UI than this ten years ago.

Whoever programmed this should be embarrassed.

Whoever reviewed it in BETA and still released it this way should be more embarrassed.

Whoever has continued to do nothing after 3 months shows complete ignorance or incompetence.

Sorry…You can’t have a minion based profession with this poor AI and say it’s NOT broken.

exactly, its not even hard to program a minion (attack my target) button

Sheobix.8796:

Holy kitten cat katface!!!

you guys get 20 weapon skills????

surely to get to use the extra 10 you lose access to your heals and utility skills as that is double what most other classes get for weapon skills?

I mean at the very least while using all these extra weapon skills your UI is mostly removed right? one shouldn’t get that many weapon skills and still be able to see things like endurance and buff and conditions, amiright?

U sir have won an internet, pls redeem it on my FB page.

IMO necro’s are the type of mess that’s going to need an expansion before the devs ever put enough thought into it to fix. Two lowest played classes are necro and engi because both are the worst when it comes to mobility, and in a game like this mobility is blood, I don’t care how much HP or toughness you give some one the only real tankiness or surviveability in this game comes from the ability to recover damage, or the ability to avoid damage or disengage. Of witch necro is the flat out worst in the game, bar NOTHING, no class has weaker or fewer mobility options than necro, although in this argument Engi’s have to use a lot of weird tricks and be pretty quick with turning their camera’s around…
[/quote]

dagger2, DS, spectral utils LF gen, plague, Dark Armor trait, LF transfer trait used at end of DS bar “lifewrap” effect, and…. oh god, it can’t be…. CONSUME CONDITIONS.

yeah. our heal skill can heal the most in the game without a single point of healing power. if you figure out how long you can wait until you pop it and gain conditions.. just laugh as the opponent balks when you heal for nearly all of your hp.[/quote]

Dude if you want to be completely content with it or see no problems, feel free to keep your head in the sand, necro’s have exactly two things on another class, they can transfer conditions, if they don’t randomly fail for some reason or another. and they have the best res skill in the game IMO. Signent of Undeath is almost worth an entire class just cause he can stand some one back up faster than they can stomp. Honestly if you had enough conditions on you for that heal to actually out heal other proffesions then you took a lot of damage 2. Holy kitten they can consume conditions? WHO CARES? woop their heal removes conditions, ele’s heal remove all conditions too, Guardians can loose 2 every 10 seconds making them virtually immune to the weak condition output a necro has, what good is a 30 second bleed if it never lasts more than 5 seconds.

Feel free to see no problems with necro’s, I will continue thanking every single necro I see for the free kill. P.S. I mained necro, I want to main necro, as soon as they don’t require crazy amounts more work, for less effect than a g’ kitten thief.

Zoke.2147:

Dude if you want to be completely content with it or see no problems, feel free to keep your head in the sand,

No one is saying they’re happy with the state of Minion AI, or are happy with the lack of some grandstanding grandmaster traits. But I think what people are saying is that Necromancer is eminently playable and very interesting and only stands to get better as other kinds get worked out.

This is not, “Keeping [one’s] head in the sand.”

Zoke.2147:

Holy kitten they can consume conditions? WHO CARES? woop their heal removes conditions, ele’s heal remove all conditions too, Guardians can loose 2 every 10 seconds making them virtually immune to the weak condition output a necro has, what good is a 30 second bleed if it never lasts more than 5 seconds.

My time as a necro is limited, but I can say with confidence you’re doing something wrong if that is your assessment of the situation. For example, have you actually tried Ether Renewal? Vastly inferior to Consume Conditions.

Feel free to see no problems with necro’s, I will continue thanking every single necro I see for the free kill.

If you think that Necromancers have a lock on bugs and design issues you are not paying attention. Mesmers got hit with a nerfhammer and now are riddled with damage bugs. Elementalists got their wings clipped with the EA changes and everyone knew it had to be changed. Engineers are in desperate need of a rework because many of their mechanics seem poorly considered (you think minions are bad? Try turrets!). Rangers are still frustrated with lackluster damage. And if you’re main-ing thief, I am sure you can list at least 5 things that hold the class back in its current design.

So: relax. Necromancer is not the worst off of the bunch, and no one is pretending they don’t need soem dev love. But the extremism you’re resorting two only makes the devs less likely to listen to you. And remember that this game is actually 3 games in one; PvE, PvP, and Wv3. Getting every class balanced in every field will take time.

XiL.4318:

Could you imagine if each necro minion behaved fully like an NPC of their class type? Farmers wouldn’t need bots anymore. Just 1 afk Minion Master Necro. Which I just assumed was obvious.

So yes. I think you are silly.

edit: NPC Necro minions refer to temporary minions only.

So we can’t design minions to work such and such way because it would make botting easier.
Right.
You know what, I couldn’t care less if something makes botting easier, harder, whatever. It’s totally irrelevant to my play, and i don’t think decisions taken to prevent botting should really impact on game design in any way, shape, or form, because a lot of time they will kitten regular players over.

Bots
-drive down AH prices for mats thru increased supply
-don’t compete with me for resources like in other games (shared nodes, mobs)
-make it easy for other people to get karma/money/mats without physical time investment. some people seem bothered by this, I say f off to them, because they are losers who think time invested is some sort of achievement, u only deserve the reward if u “work” for it (ie endure hours of boredom, are unemployed etc). Frankly i dont see much difference between mindless grinding and botting – being entirely absent – and at least if u write ur own bottnig program, macro, whatever, you actually have some skill.

Anet
-put in diminishing returns which kittened over regular players
-broke rare drop rate in cursed shore
-one of the reasons ectos are 38s or whatever ridiculous price is due to a bot crackdown
-etc

Necros can remove 2 conditions every 10 seconds for free, too, not sure why everyone gets hung up on the fact that guardians can do it. Actually we remove 1 every 5s but it’s the same thing over time.