Guild Wars 2

See the news item on the two teams – each team has one necro:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/meet-the-gw2-pvp-invitational-tournament-teams/

Posi’s build:
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=;044Z;1kHFH0p37JkJ0;9;4TJ;0J39A18;529-8-17;2hoHAhoHA2Fr

Zombify’s build (the links are mistakenly swapped with Vyndetta on the news page):
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=;044Z;1kHFC0r3ZJkJ0;9;4TJ;0J49A38;529-KN17;2hoHAhoHA2Vs

Both run very similar 30/20/0/0/20 S/D+Staff builds, and similar utility skills.

Awesome builds variety.

Halo.8976:

Awesome builds variety.

lol +1

Brando.1374:

Halo.8976:

Awesome builds variety.

lol +1

Well…. as has been stated over annnnnd over again. A few quick fixes would help:

1. Make death magic minors not awful
2. Make blood magic more impactful on survival
3. Change dumbfire to make it less of a freebie easymode skill that is unavoidable.

I think a lot of necros would trade up spite for blood magic if they actually felt like it would help out. I know I personally would trade out SR for Death if the minors were better.

More to the point, Necromancers are, right now, the best condition DPS builds, or were when all that was going on at least. Plus both of those guys are historically condi Necromancers (zombify at most has only gone hybrid). You don’t generally see other Necro builds because they don’t fit in nearly as easily with groups, meaning you need to build the team, to some degree, around them. Atm, condi necros can just be plugged into the condi DPS slot of the group and boom, you’re good to go.

And obviously there is going to be a best condi DPS build for maximizing damage, so they run it (with small differences maybe).

You really expect massive build variety when theres only 2 teams rofl?

Lol… i run 30 – 20 – 0 – 0 – 20 as well, but with different runes, and i have Master of Terror, i have no idea how someone could leave home without it. Oh well…

Soul marks are far more important in pvp.

Bhawb.7408:

More to the point, Necromancers are, right now, the best condition DPS builds, or were when all that was going on at least. Plus both of those guys are historically condi Necromancers (zombify at most has only gone hybrid). You don’t generally see other Necro builds because they don’t fit in nearly as easily with groups, meaning you need to build the team, to some degree, around them. Atm, condi necros can just be plugged into the condi DPS slot of the group and boom, you’re good to go.

And obviously there is going to be a best condi DPS build for maximizing damage, so they run it (with small differences maybe).

The build comps for the entire team are pretty much identical

Ixl Super Ixl –Captain – Engineer
Posi – Necromancer
Lady Nag Nag Pvp – Guardian
Lord Nag Nag Nag – Thief
The Mogwow – Elementalist / Ranger

Caed – Captain – Thief
Zombify – Necromancer
Davinci – Guardian
Twerp – Ranger
Vyndetta – Ranger

Your talking about plug and play for necro as if it is a bad thing when every profession runs just about the same comps at the top. There is no deep in-depth psycho analysis on why a necro is on the team its on the team because it is the best condi pressure profession a role not to long ago that was reserved for mostly engineers but 1 team has a engineer and a necro.

I’m willing to bet each one of those teams professions are mirrored almost identical to their opponent out side of a few trait changes but probably close to the same stat allocation. I am willing to bet top dollar Caed is not running Pistol/Dagger condition caltrops with venom share on his thief and Lord Nag Nag Nag isn’t running P/P high initiative unload with withdraw, roll for initiative 30 in acrobatics.

You don’t generally see other builds for any professions necro included.

Limited build variety is why I dont like spvp/tpvp

Brando.1374:

Limited build variety is why I dont like spvp/tpvp

Pretty much. Same mode, same builds, same game over and over again.
I’m not saying WvW is better, but at least I can think about 5-7 different viable builds for zerging / small group roaming / solo / any other crazy stuff.

Nemesis.8593:

Lol… i run 30 – 20 – 0 – 0 – 20 as well, but with different runes, and i have Master of Terror, i have no idea how someone could leave home without it. Oh well…

master of terror dont work btw

warkalax.1642:

Nemesis.8593:

Lol… i run 30 – 20 – 0 – 0 – 20 as well, but with different runes, and i have Master of Terror, i have no idea how someone could leave home without it. Oh well…

master of terror dont work btw

Yes it does. Master of Terror has always worked.

warkalax.1642:

Nemesis.8593:

Lol… i run 30 – 20 – 0 – 0 – 20 as well, but with different runes, and i have Master of Terror, i have no idea how someone could leave home without it. Oh well…

master of terror dont work btw

Yes, totall because my 1 1/2 fear doesnt turn into a 2 1/4 fear in any way… nooo that is just the tooltip (what could be), in game on mob indicator (impossible) and real time doing it wrong.

What i dont get is why they picked up CB over WoC? Maybe the range?

Range and instant nature are my guess. When you get into a fight and you aren’t on a point, the Well isn’t that great in PvP.

Hello everyone. I just want to state that is only 1 of the builds i ran in the PAX qualifier. As some of you already know from talking to me, i run different builds based on map/team comp. I ran 3 builds alone in the PAX qualifier, but i was only able to give 1 out which is the one you see posted up there. While 30/20/0/0/20 is considered meta due to its strength, you can still swap utilities and some of the traits so there is minor diversity.

I will post up my other builds after PAX. 1 of them (besides rabid 30/20/0/0/20) probably will be used at PAX for sure and it does counter other necros and auto immune :P

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Range and instant nature are my guess. When you get into a fight and you aren’t on a point, the Well isn’t that great in PvP.

Not sure if you know this, but there is a trait to make wells 900 range. So being instant and not wanting to sacrifice a trait are more likely the reason.

edit: What surprises me is that Posi isn’t running Epidemic.

oZii.2864:

Your talking about plug and play for necro as if it is a bad thing when every profession runs just about the same comps at the top. There is no deep in-depth psycho analysis on why a necro is on the team its on the team because it is the best condi pressure profession a role not to long ago that was reserved for mostly engineers but 1 team has a engineer and a necro.

Its a bad thing because imo it kills a lot of the interesting part of PvP: the pre-game strategy. I agree that is why Necros are run, but I still think PvP would be vastly better overall if we saw more diversity in build compositions, instead of the standard 1 main bunker, one off-bunker, a condi DPS, and a direct damage DPS, with all the variance being on the 5th man and whoever is filling the 4 roles bringing slight differences.

Bhawb.7408:

oZii.2864:

Your talking about plug and play for necro as if it is a bad thing when every profession runs just about the same comps at the top. There is no deep in-depth psycho analysis on why a necro is on the team its on the team because it is the best condi pressure profession a role not to long ago that was reserved for mostly engineers but 1 team has a engineer and a necro.

Its a bad thing because imo it kills a lot of the interesting part of PvP: the pre-game strategy. I agree that is why Necros are run, but I still think PvP would be vastly better overall if we saw more diversity in build compositions, instead of the standard 1 main bunker, one off-bunker, a condi DPS, and a direct damage DPS, with all the variance being on the 5th man and whoever is filling the 4 roles bringing slight differences.

I totally agree with you IMO it has more to do with the game mode than anything else.

Ashur.6403:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Range and instant nature are my guess. When you get into a fight and you aren’t on a point, the Well isn’t that great in PvP.

Not sure if you know this, but there is a trait to make wells 900 range. So being instant and not wanting to sacrifice a trait are more likely the reason.

edit: What surprises me is that Posi isn’t running Epidemic.

Given one runs Hemophilia and the other Weakening Shroud, I would say Focused Rituals is actually not high on their priorities, especially since Corrupt Boon does the job almost as well, but has speed and doesn’t require the trait.

If you ran Focused Rituals and the well, you’re losing out on Weakening Shroud, which is a strong trait, and you’re still basically getting the same thing done with CB (coordinated teams won’t be getting multiple people in the well since you only need the bunker on point).

And honestly I don’t think it has to do with the game mode, I just feel that right now there are so few people the Meta is a lot more stale than it would be. A game like LoL doesn’t have a good meta solely because of the game mode (conquest is just as flexible, arguably more), but because it has millions that play it daily. When you have such a massive player pool, you get people who try stuff just for the hell of it. And sometimes that stuff works, and then it can become the new big build. But with so few people its just going to come about that much slower.

oZii.2864:

Bhawb.7408:

oZii.2864:

Your talking about plug and play for necro as if it is a bad thing when every profession runs just about the same comps at the top. There is no deep in-depth psycho analysis on why a necro is on the team its on the team because it is the best condi pressure profession a role not to long ago that was reserved for mostly engineers but 1 team has a engineer and a necro.

Its a bad thing because imo it kills a lot of the interesting part of PvP: the pre-game strategy. I agree that is why Necros are run, but I still think PvP would be vastly better overall if we saw more diversity in build compositions, instead of the standard 1 main bunker, one off-bunker, a condi DPS, and a direct damage DPS, with all the variance being on the 5th man and whoever is filling the 4 roles bringing slight differences.

I totally agree with you IMO it has more to do with the game mode than anything else.

Pretty much this. Without knocking the strategy of sPvP, it’s essentially a very straightforward game mode with an extremely pointed goal (no pun intended). Like in Checkers, Chess, or even League of Legends, the meta is always going to be painfully static. Changes can happen (usually due to patch changes), but the game mode will always settle into a repetitive groove once players find the new path of least resistance to victory.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Pretty much this. Without knocking the strategy of sPvP, it’s essentially a very straightforward game mode with an extremely pointed goal (no pun intended). Like in Checkers, Chess, or even League of Legends, the meta is always going to be painfully static. Changes can happen (usually due to patch changes), but the game mode will always settle into a repetitive groove once players find the new path of least resistance to victory.

Big difference between chess n checkers vs league n dota and GW2/mmopvp is that unlike in the first (physical) example where everything is static on a set field goal, the second (virtual) case has variables that can mix things up in drastic ways.
Sure the main objective stays the same, but ways to achieve it change, in GW2 pvp its get x amount of points, no matter if you hold all points or not it can be achieved, same in lol killing the nexus only requires one lane to be pushed deep enough.
So big changes in the meta (like Bruiser>Caster>Assassin>Gank/Map control like it did over last quarter of S2 and into the current S3 in lol) are done just with little changes ( New DFG, Khazix mid stream, Shen and TF on same team in tournament), even if the things/“change” is already in game.

Andele.1306:

So big changes in the meta (like Bruiser>Caster>Assassin>Gank/Map control like it did over last quarter of S2 and into the current S3 in lol) are done just with little changes ( New DFG, Khazix mid stream, Shen and TF on same team in tournament), even if the things/“change” is already in game.

Those changes give the illusion of dynamic play, but really they’re just the result of an outside alteration in the formula being worked out. There is still only one optimal setup at any time.

Players will always tend to gravitate towards what helps them win the most. If there is an optimal strategy, that strategy will eventually be discovered (likely by pros), then disseminated, then iterated upon until the game becomes stagnate again.

What helps hide this is something known as perfect imbalance. Basically, every time Anet releases a major balance patch, they (to a greater or lesser degree) throw out the old rulebook of what the optimal strategy was. However, the extent to which the new strategy differs from the old strategy depends on the complexity of the game objective. With a simple objective, the strategy rarely changes too much, and if it does it’s probably because something is wildly imbalanced.

For example, AD assassins started pushing mages out of the LoL meta earlier this season because they just dealt so much damage and could pierce armor so easily that the control and damage type spread from mages was superflous. You don’t need Morgana to stun a team if Kha’Zix can just slash them all to death freely. But even that was just a minor tweak to the established meta. You’re unlikely to see trilanes or double jungle or full healing support teams much in professional play. Gimmick teams show up from time to time but any strategy that relies on its opponent’s ignorance of how to counter it cannot become a new meta.

(As a more concrete example, Ezreal being replaced by Miss Fortune as the best ADC isn’t really a meta shift, it’s just what happened when Ezreal gets nerfed over time and MF got buffed over time, plus Black Cleaver. You still want an ADC, you’re just slotting a different champion into the spot.)

Anyway, that’s a long way of saying that we’re unlikely to see too much fundamental change in the sPvP meta without the addition of new game modes with radically different objectives. Or maybe I’m wrong and we will! Time will tell. The takeaway from this is that I wish there were some other PvP game mode that I didn’t find so boring.

Meta shifts don’t have to be massive, there is obviously going to be the “best” way to do things (like how LoL the most optimum strategy is securing small advantages that you turn into global gold that you use to snowball more objectives/global gold/map presence until your team can bully theirs off of anything you want), but that still says little about interesting gameplay.

There are many different ways teams use to do the very broad overall method. Teams like CLG, Vulcun, and EG (although less now than before) use late game strength and stall the game until they win regardless. Korean teams and C9 use incredibly strong laning to start the snowballing so they can bully off the early objectives, and then use that very small lead to build into a much larger one. Beyond more broad strategies like that, there are team compositions. Poke, AoE teamfight, “protect the Doublelift”, all-in dives, bruiser teams, late game, early game, there are a ton of different team comps and mixtures of them, along with different variations that arise depending on which champs are currently “in” the meta, and then some outliers depending on players. Point being, there is actually a massive amount of diversity in LoL, even within a fairly established meta of how to win.

The most efficient method of winning in GW2 is always going to be triple capping their team, getting every point-giving side objective, and then spawn camping them for kills for the “fastest” win. But how do you do that? Right now, most every team uses the same composition, with the same builds, and just plugs in whichever build is strongest at that position. There aren’t really team compositions that are so specific, and they certainly don’t have the pre-game type of preparation that other games do.

This isn’t the game mode’s fault, as Conquest (along with interesting side objectives, which are needed, and sorely lacking in all but one of the competitive maps) actually gives quite a lot of freedom in achieving a win, but simply due to the limited number of players. The meta shifts that we see in LoL that keep the game interesting and fun just don’t happen that much in GW2 except with major patches (whereas in LoL they often happen with no change at all, just something someone found on accident).

Is more players the only solution? No. Better balance will help open up more diversity, as it will make people really want to branch out and explore if they think it will be worthwhile, as will better rewards for PvP (unlike in LoL where the reward is going 20/0 as an adc and knowing you carried the crap out of your team, you need a different way to feel awesome in GW2), and better maps. But imo, and its only an opinion, conquest is just fine as the competitive game mode; with more funsies maps on the side.

CLG and the Korean teams go about differing strategies in what’s actually a very subtle way. Both teams have a tanky jungler, a tank/bruiser, a mage/assassin, a support, and an ADC. Sometimes you’ll see slight changes to this when one class of champions gets buffed and invalidates some other class (or something like early S3 splitpushing AP Trynd surfaces and invalidates the whole darn game), but then Riot fixes the big imbalance and things settle back into the same basic team comps with the same basic strategies.

With sufficient knowledge of the game, you can learn to appreciate the nuanced differences between a team with Jayce, Nidalee, Shen, Janna, and Caitlyn and one with Malphite, Amumu, Morgana, Sona, and Ashe, but nobody fields a team with Ashe, Varus, Sivir, Vayne, and Graves or Soraka, Taric, Nami, Sona, and Thresh (though I have done the all-support comp before and it’s hilarious, but you still have one or two people build tanky, one person build ADC, one build AP, one take no CS and ward a lot, etc).

Which isn’t to say this is a bad thing! My point is just that it’s not very surprising that we’re seeing a similar type of standardized setup emerging in GW2. Well-known metas can make it easier for non-pro players to set up teams quickly, learn how to play competently more rapidly, and generally succeed more easily. They just also tend to require you to play a certain way, which tends to lead to reduced build viability. It’s up to Anet to figure out what the meta is, what they want it to be, and then to tweak the game so that each profession can fill multiple roles just a little bit differently from other professions to allow for nuances like poke comps or AoE comps to become viable variants.

And if they also wanted to release a PvP game mode for people like me who just find Conquest as it’s currently laid out to be incredibly dull, I’d be ok with that too.

1, Your main point is countered by your second, the perfect imbalance (what is actually just counterplay by power/skill ratio; just how in sc2 2 zerglings meleeing a marine will kill him, but if the marine starts to kite even a little bit he kills them). That happens in a well designed game, having a cycle of counters, thus making it impossible to make a perfect team (even in lol because as russians have shown over and over again, safe play doesnt pay in the end if you are setting back advantages for a small continuous personal benefit vs a good enemy.
2. Trilanes, double mid/double top, double jungle (what is just the really old roamer vs farmer meta) all happened in lol, but got established hard counter comps and are still very very viable in dota (in fact tri-lane is the norm). Just as Ez got stopped being picked for the same reasons, people started using champs like amumu, cho, zed, kha, nauty, talon etc that can negate the advantage ezreal and corki had (who were both very picked adcs for a while because of their reliable escapes). MF on the other hand (with ashe and draven) got in to replace the strengths ez had (strong poke, good fight control and global ulti in the last 2 cases) but replacing a skill that would then be useless with current champs with more power. Same thing tech applied to the mage vs assassin thing, cho, xerath, viktor, annie, nauti and malphite were very strong ap mids still then and beat the kitten out of talon/zed/kha, the problem with them was that a) community didnt want the shift to damage on top tanky build on mid and b) people didnt think that maybe not buying a NLR but a chain west and wand might be a better idea… thats the lack of counterplay by community that is bugging gw2 a lot, mostly because such builds aint viable in other situations/have no stronger role to play.
3. Lol and dota have the problems of having money at stake, you see pros and higher ups in community interaction do funny weird kitten all the time in their personal streams and fan games that work, but you dont risk on that when the next win could make sure you have enough money for a bloody year.

Again new game modes (so equivalents of different strats/comps for mobas), Better defined strengths of builds/stats/traits (good itemization) and plain more fun incentive is needed.

I don’t normally play Minion builds but was curious if there is a minion build that is viable for pvp?

Yes, there are a few that are viable. Just know that most of them are either full minion builds that are off-point bunkers (for 1v1 mainly), and then either super-tanky versions for team fights or condi hybrids for the same. You can actually get a fair amount of diversity with minions, but they are harder to fit into team comps (although with the mass of spirit rangers right now, its not bad).