Please revert overflow DS damage

Please revert overflow DS damage

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Posted by: Kraag Deadsoul.2789

Kraag Deadsoul.2789

In the July 23rd, 2013 patch, the Necromancer profession received the following change to its profession-specific mechanic, Death Shroud:

Damage taken while in death shroud will now overflow to the necromancer’s health pool if the damage taken is greater than the remaining life force.

The intent of this post is to petition the developers at ArenaNet to revert this aspect of Death Shroud back to its pre-July 23rd, 2013 state. In other words:

Damage will NOT overflow to the necromancer’s health pool if the damage taken is greater than the remaining life force.

This is the only change that is being requested by this post.

If the developers wish to see Necromancers die from fall damage – even while in Death Shroud – so be it; add code that insta-kills if falling beyond a certain distance or – better yet – code those zones you don’t want us seeing with an AoE insta-kill. This way, Necromancers could also return to surviving falls from great heights where appropriate (e.g. escaping in WvWvW) while still being prevented from accessing areas outside the map. Regardless, please reinstate our ability to use Death Shroud as our sole form of de facto block/evade/invulnerability.

I would ask those who post remain on topic; this is simply a petition for those who wish to show support for reverting Death Shroud. If you disagree, that’s fine, too; all I ask is we keep the petition focused narrowly on the topic of overflow damage from Death Shroud to the normal health pool, pro or con. There are numerous posts that have already delved deeply into this debate; the intent is this one remain succinct and in the form of a petition rather than a discussion.

Previous posts which have argued this point somewhere within the thread can be found here:

Can Death Shroud actually be balanced?

Death Shroud brainstorming

DeathShroud is now base 100% HP

July 23rd patch notes: hidden buffs edition

Necromancer’s only defense!

sPvP forum to dictate the future of Necros

Thank you.

So many souls, so little time. ~ Kraag Deadsoul

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Posted by: Draehl.2681

Draehl.2681

Thanks, but no thanks. It was a nice trick to overcome fall damage and the occasional large boss hit, but I would much rather this be left as-is and let them focus on making DS more useful (skills changing based on weapon), fixing lifesteal, improving trait synergy, etc. In the grand scheme of things this is something better left un-abusable and simply focus on other obvious areas of improvement.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

I will sign this petition. PvE content that is actually challenging became significantly harder for a necromancer than any other profession after this change.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
I’m a Geeleiver

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

I say no. The problem is that it gives a significant amount of power into niche situations (surviving falls, and also a one shot invuln every 10 seconds), and as such ties up a lot of defensive power. They really couldn’t afford to boost our ability to nullify burst damage, because Death Shroud had this amazing ability to do that on its own already, and so any additional mitigation would have been over the top (burst only). At this point, they have freed us up for more sensical buffs (SA already is insanely strong at fighting burst, and its CD is more reasonable than every 10 seconds), and it is blatantly obvious we need it.

Balance aside, I never liked it as a mechanic. Yes jumping from really high places and living was a ton of fun, but other than that it just didn’t feel right that I could magically nullify excess damage because my two HP bars were separate.

But of Corpse – Watch us on YouTube
My PvP Minion Build

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Posted by: Ynot.8397

Ynot.8397

The problem is in pve areas, not pvp. I don’t care if i go down in wvw at all. I do care about not being able to survive the big hits in pve that everyone else can.

Ferguson’s Crossing→ SoS→ DR→ EBay

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Perhaps it would be best to revert the change in only PvE and WvW? WvW, it’s only a concern with escaping off of cliffs, really, as you can’t block an important attack with it without serious luck.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
I’m a Geeleiver

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Posted by: Monoman.2068

Monoman.2068

Thanks, but no thanks. It was a nice trick to overcome fall damage and the occasional large boss hit, but I would much rather this be left as-is and let them focus on making DS more useful (skills changing based on weapon), fixing lifesteal, improving trait synergy, etc. In the grand scheme of things this is something better left un-abusable and simply focus on other obvious areas of improvement.

Agreed, if I have to pick between my DS aegis or Anet actually addressing issues with this class, I’ll put up with with thieves backstabbing me out of DS.

Laviere – Hybrid Wellomancer
Makonne – Hybrid Regen Ranger

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Posted by: Kratos.6293

Kratos.6293

I will sign this petition but you should know that petitions are against the Terms & Conditions of the forums. I made a petition regarding the same issue and it got deleted. So you should probably change the name to something else !

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Posted by: blurps.2340

blurps.2340

At this point, they have freed us up for more sensical buffs (SA already is insanely strong at fighting burst, and its CD is more reasonable than every 10 seconds), and it is blatantly obvious we need it.

When will they come though ? In another year, or maybe two ?

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Posted by: spoj.9672

spoj.9672

Id rather have a petition for vigor. But meh.

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Posted by: Blaine Tog.8304

Blaine Tog.8304

I say no. The problem is that it gives a significant amount of power into niche situations (surviving falls, and also a one shot invuln every 10 seconds), and as such ties up a lot of defensive power. They really couldn’t afford to boost our ability to nullify burst damage, because Death Shroud had this amazing ability to do that on its own already, and so any additional mitigation would have been over the top (burst only). At this point, they have freed us up for more sensical buffs (SA already is insanely strong at fighting burst, and its CD is more reasonable than every 10 seconds), and it is blatantly obvious we need it.

Balance aside, I never liked it as a mechanic. Yes jumping from really high places and living was a ton of fun, but other than that it just didn’t feel right that I could magically nullify excess damage because my two HP bars were separate.

Sounds like they could potentially bring it back as a trait with a 30/60 second cooldown, perhaps after fixing the map so players couldn’t accidentally end up in weird spots.

I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.

(edited by Blaine Tog.8304)

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Posted by: rfdarko.4639

rfdarko.4639

I agree that there are better ways we could be given defense, but until they do so I say revert the change in pve and wvw. Last time it took them 10 months to get around to balancing necromancers, so I’m more on the side of “give us what little we had back for now” rather than " leave it open for a fix which may or may not come". And honestly I’m dubious that they will give us any sort of block or evade in the future . Since the dhumfire patch I haven’t seen any dev say we would, and in fact every post on the subject has instead defended the new direction of necros as condi glass cannons for the sake of class differentiation with engis.

guildless hobo who likes to solo – [x]

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Posted by: Tommyknocker.6089

Tommyknocker.6089

I’m not gonna sign it simply because they should have addressed the actual issues with our class from the beginning instead of forcing us to come to a quick fix to survive the big hits.

IMO they MUST address the vitality/healing/leeching issues instead of reversing something that was not intended for us in the first place. Now that the problem is more out in the open with our class maybe ANet will address the real problems with our class. However if all they are going to focus on is the PvP meta for the necro, we are all kittened.

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

Sounds like they could potentially bring it back as a trait with a 30/60 second cooldown, perhaps after fixing the map so players couldn’t accidentally end up in weird spots.

I actually have really thought it could be good to have an Aegis on DS entry with some high ICD for balance. Every X seconds or something, entering DS gives Aegis for like 5 seconds, or leaving, or on DS expiration, but some Aegis-DS proc I think could make sense.

But of Corpse – Watch us on YouTube
My PvP Minion Build

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Posted by: Andele.1306

Andele.1306

I’m not gonna sign it simply because they should have addressed the actual issues with our class from the beginning instead of forcing us to come to a quick fix to survive the big hits.

IMO they MUST address the vitality/healing/leeching issues instead of reversing something that was not intended for us in the first place. Now that the problem is more out in the open with our class maybe ANet will address the real problems with our class. However if all they are going to focus on is the PvP meta for the necro, we are all kittened.

It was intended, as a matter of fact it used to not work vs jumps till they patched it (on the patch when they removed orbs from WvWvW).

When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.

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Posted by: Tommyknocker.6089

Tommyknocker.6089

I’m not gonna sign it simply because they should have addressed the actual issues with our class from the beginning instead of forcing us to come to a quick fix to survive the big hits.

IMO they MUST address the vitality/healing/leeching issues instead of reversing something that was not intended for us in the first place. Now that the problem is more out in the open with our class maybe ANet will address the real problems with our class. However if all they are going to focus on is the PvP meta for the necro, we are all kittened.

It was intended, as a matter of fact it used to not work vs jumps till they patched it (on the patch when they removed orbs from WvWvW).

I stand corrected. However this gives me even less hope for the future of our class when the devs can’t even decide what they want for us!

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Posted by: Blaine Tog.8304

Blaine Tog.8304

Sounds like they could potentially bring it back as a trait with a 30/60 second cooldown, perhaps after fixing the map so players couldn’t accidentally end up in weird spots.

I actually have really thought it could be good to have an Aegis on DS entry with some high ICD for balance. Every X seconds or something, entering DS gives Aegis for like 5 seconds, or leaving, or on DS expiration, but some Aegis-DS proc I think could make sense.

Gaining Aegis immediately upon leaving DS (or upon losing all LF) would make more sense since you typically WANT to take hits to your LF quickly and then get out. I wonder if it could be coded so that Aegis could block overflow damage. Gaining Aegis upon entering DS would be a much simpler way of doing it, it just has the potential to overshadow the DS itself.

I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.

(edited by Blaine Tog.8304)

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

That is why I added in the second part that there are a number of ways they could have it proc (and I agree not entry would be best, either upon leaving or upon expiration, expiration obviously could give it a much lower ICD).

But of Corpse – Watch us on YouTube
My PvP Minion Build

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Posted by: yski.7642

yski.7642

Count me in, it was a neat mechanic that made a lot of things possible, and there wasn’t real harm done by it as far as I can see.

Learn the ways of the mighty Deathleaf: http://www.youtube.com/user/YskiTheBanshee

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Posted by: Andele.1306

Andele.1306

Sounds like they could potentially bring it back as a trait with a 30/60 second cooldown, perhaps after fixing the map so players couldn’t accidentally end up in weird spots.

I actually have really thought it could be good to have an Aegis on DS entry with some high ICD for balance. Every X seconds or something, entering DS gives Aegis for like 5 seconds, or leaving, or on DS expiration, but some Aegis-DS proc I think could make sense.

Gaining Aegis immediately upon leaving DS (or upon losing all LF) would make more sense since you typically WANT to take hits to your LF quickly and then get out. I wonder if it could be coded so that Aegis could block overflow damage. Gaining Aegis upon entering DS would be a much simpler way of doing it, it just has the potential to overshadow the DS itself.

Wouldnt any kind of aegis on DS just be a stronger DS absorb, i mean if we get aegis then people couldnt knock us out of ds with cc like they could with just absorb and can now to just not allow us to heal up/cc them back.

When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

DS’s ability to take damage needs to be increased in two areas alone: burst, and multi-target. Multi target has little to do with this so that can be left for another discussion, but we did take, in general, a nerf to large, single hit absorption. While the SA buff is really strong, we need more overall ways to take the big hits, and in my opinion there are way more fun and interesting ways to do it.

ANet has a great opportunity now to make DS far more fun.

But of Corpse – Watch us on YouTube
My PvP Minion Build

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Posted by: Andele.1306

Andele.1306

ANet has a great opportunity now to make DS far more fun.

Hey you just nicked what i was trying to do with my trolly/comedy trait thread.
S-s-stupid!

When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.

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Posted by: Kolisch.4691

Kolisch.4691

Would agree to revert this only if falling damage while in death shroud only affects their normal health pool. Necromancers don’t really have evades/blocks/vigor regens, the old DS helps them be up to par with other classes with survivability.

HoT = Grind Wars 2
HoT = WvW players forced to PVE

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Posted by: TheAgedGnome.7520

TheAgedGnome.7520

/signed.

If they want, they could just change:

Damage taken while in death shroud will now overflow to the necromancer’s health pool if the damage taken is greater than the remaining life force.

to:

Falling damage taken while in death shroud will now overflow to the necromancer’s health pool if the damage taken is greater than the remaining life force.

And we already know they can distinguish falling damage from other damage. I.e., Toxic Landing trait.

Stealth nerfs are the perfect fertilizer for mistrust.
PVE Power and Support Build

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Posted by: glorius.1235

glorius.1235

/signed +1

Without going deep in arguing for it, check out every single linked post to make comparisons. That 1-hit block in every 10s is far from being overpowered.
Look up guardian Aegis, channeled blocks, Vigor and Distortion skills.
For the falling damage concerns, check out the countless arguments that have been made for it.

I also agree that evolving the character would be much better than having this mechanic, but you don’t address an issue the way ANet did in this case.
It’s like you take your car to the repair shop cause you need to swap some parts to work as intended. It still does run though, you just have a feeling that things are not the way they should be.They only remove the broken elements, but don’t replace them with working ones and then give the car back to you saying they will do the actual fix later. Now your car is completely broken, doesn’t run despite paying the bill and you are left with a promise that says actually nothing about when and how.

If they truly intend to address some issues, remove the broken parts, then implement a new mechanic at the same time.

Until such thing’s not gonna happen, give back the mechanic, that we are used to. If they want us to take another way, remove the (considered-to-be) broken one and implement a new one.

IGN: Skúgg – currently on Far Shiverpeaks

(edited by glorius.1235)

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Posted by: cyst.3108

cyst.3108

the Question is.. can REGEN HEAL us or DS while in DS? no? Then why in the kitteng hell do the damage overflow? if they change it so we could get heals while in ds then the change is ok.

After June 25 im like… 90% happier

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Posted by: Mad Queen Malafide.7512

Mad Queen Malafide.7512

I sign this petition for two reasons:

1: Necromancers need some kind of invulnerability skill, like all other classes have, to deal with all of the insta-kill spam in PVE. The game’s PVE content is currently not balanced in this respect.

2: Popping in and out of Death Shroud was a very interesting mechanic that added some depth to the class. They removed something that was fun about the class from the game.

“Madness is just another way to view reality”
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-On3Ya0_4Y)

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Posted by: Enundr.9305

Enundr.9305

I say no. The problem is that it gives a significant amount of power into niche situations (surviving falls, and also a one shot invuln every 10 seconds), and as such ties up a lot of defensive power. They really couldn’t afford to boost our ability to nullify burst damage, because Death Shroud had this amazing ability to do that on its own already, and so any additional mitigation would have been over the top (burst only). At this point, they have freed us up for more sensical buffs (SA already is insanely strong at fighting burst, and its CD is more reasonable than every 10 seconds), and it is blatantly obvious we need it.

Balance aside, I never liked it as a mechanic. Yes jumping from really high places and living was a ton of fun, but other than that it just didn’t feel right that I could magically nullify excess damage because my two HP bars were separate.

lol tell that to a perma stealth thief that can fight multiple opponents in WvW and laugh as he comes out of stealth full health , REPEATEDLY. get out of here man , you defend them doing that but youd rather have necro not have a solid defense since we lack vigor and any other good defensive skills.

i /sign this petition , since we dont have MM as an actually useful spec outside of 1v1 and open world pve (ie id like it useful in dungeons like it was in GW1) id rather have this DS reverted back to how it was , i know i dont use it defensively at all , i use it offensively cause i know its not going to protect me in the least bit , it gets burned in pve just as fast as it did before.

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Posted by: Afya.5842

Afya.5842

I say no. The problem is that it gives a significant amount of power into niche situations (surviving falls, and also a one shot invuln every 10 seconds

I don’t get how it’s OP. Mesmer has 2 full seconds evade every 12s. Warrior has evade every 10s. Guardian has auto aegis every 10s. Ranger has evade every 8s. Not counting block or invul.

i want them to revert the change as a hot fix but doesn’t mean it’s the solution to our situation in PVE.

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Posted by: Bweaty.9187

Bweaty.9187

I had a big scary monster in Orr hit me for 30% LifeForce + my life + rally life. Either 1 hit or 1 lag spike. Broke my pants, still find it funny…

Vigor

More LifeForce = More. Is better way to play.
We just need something particularly in PvE like, Vigor, endurance return, block, invul. To keep up with the other class’s in long boss fights etc.

LifeForce, is still. Crappy to gain on 1v1, stupidly too much in huge AoE world events.
LifeForce on weaps, can be super frustrating, as the attack has to hit. So axe/scepter can be very long between getting any return, if block/dodge/buggy ground/target dis-selected.

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Posted by: Blaine Tog.8304

Blaine Tog.8304

Wouldnt any kind of aegis on DS just be a stronger DS absorb, i mean if we get aegis then people couldnt knock us out of ds with cc like they could with just absorb and can now to just not allow us to heal up/cc them back.

This is why Aegis on entering DS would be weird: it’s duplicative with DS and gives us what we need when we generally least need it (blocking big boss insta-down attacks being the major exception).

Giving us an Aegis upon losing all LF that can block overflow damage could be interesting. It would mean you could always block at least one attack, like before, but you’d have to spend a trait on it and it would have an ICD, so you couldn’t just kill one ambient creature and get it back.

I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.

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Posted by: oZii.2864

oZii.2864

I agree I think aegis would be a pretty good addition. I am new to necro but the 1 thing I hate the most is when you use lf to soak up damage (like you are suppose to) then you exit to try and get your heal off only to die because its a strangely long cast time for some odd reason.

25 second cooldown full condi clear sounds strong but we all know if your affected by conditions from other classes they probably reapply pretty quickly like all condi builds do. The long cast time on the heal makes no sense to me but if they want to keep that cast time I think aegis on DS exit would be pretty good and balanced.

[Good Fights]Sinndicate{Ele}Sinactic{Engineer}
Sinnastor{Warrior}Sinnacle{Mesmer}Sintacs
{Thief}

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Posted by: Nay of the Ether.8913

Nay of the Ether.8913

/signed
Because they need to make up their minds:
Pre nerf dev responses: “Learn to use deathshroud”
We learned, got proficient at it
Post nerf: “You shouldn’t be using deathshroud that way”
Can’t have your cake and eat it too. Fix the class or get rid of it, because all that’s happening is grinding it farther and farther into the dirt and in the exact opposite directions from how it needs to be going (ie sustainability)

http://almunns.wix.com/elitedeathsociety
~Surrender fiend and you will get an easy death
~I could promise you the same…but it would be a lie…

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Posted by: nekretaal.6485

nekretaal.6485

Im not going to sign. I am hoping that skills will be added (vigor blocks reflects), that wouldn’t be OP because of the new DS, or that traits will be tweaked (Blood traits not healing in DS) that fix this for us in a way that is fair to the spike classes.

#24 leaderboard rank North America.

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Posted by: Invictus.1503

Invictus.1503

/signed
I’ve given numerous reasons on other posts so will leave my comments to them.

It’s better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt.

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Posted by: souless.1935

souless.1935

I’ll sign while I can because this post is going to get locked real soon just for being a petition as it is.

Ehmry Bay! Commander – Onyxguard
GW1/GW2 Beta player

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Posted by: Fungalfoot.7213

Fungalfoot.7213

You have my axe.

/signed

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Posted by: rfdarko.4639

rfdarko.4639

Not sure how many listened to the SOAC podcast this week, but they had a nice discussion about how holding out for the “perfect change” is not necessary best when there is an easy fix that might resolve some of the issue in the mean time. It was in the context of minon master necros and aoe damage, but I think the sentiment applies here as well (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZczV7o3fc1Y , about an hour in. The guest host also discusses his problems with DS overflow towards the beginning). Reverting deathshroud is definently not the perfect fix, but its easy and will at least help the problem if not totally solve it.

guildless hobo who likes to solo – [x]

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

Honestly, I don’t think its the best fix short term either. It’d be much easier if they just plopped vigor on us in a 5 point trait (reanimator be gone!), and then removed it when they finally fixed this issue, and it would be healthier for the game in the long run.

But of Corpse – Watch us on YouTube
My PvP Minion Build

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Posted by: Kraag Deadsoul.2789

Kraag Deadsoul.2789

I understand where many of the posts regarding the addition of vigor or aegis or whatever are coming from. However, the devs have – on more than one occassion – stated that necros are not getting any defensive buffs such as block, evade, invulnerability, stealth, etc.

Of course, devs can always change their minds; but at the current time it does not appear we will be receiving any defensive buffs. Meanwhile, they’ve removed the one de facto burst mitigation we did have without compensating that loss with something to make up for it. In light of this, we have no true burst absorption as the other classes do.

As others have stated, Death Shroud burst absorption was not OP. On paper, it appears we have access to functional invulnerability every 10 seconds. In practice, it doesn’t work this way due to the dependency of needing to have at least 10% Life Force available to enter Death Shroud. Coupled with the natural degen of Life Force while in Death Shroud form as well as that Life Force being depleted from non-burst hits, we’d be lucky to absorb a burst every 10 seconds.

As Afya pointed out, other professions have access to their burst mitigators on the same or nearly the same cool down and without a dependency on a secondary resource (Life Force) like necromancers are forced to contend with. Absorbing bursts required good Life Force management and Death Shroud timing; examples of skillful play and adaptation (i.e. we “learn(ed) to use Death Shroud” as Nay of the Ether pointed out).

If Death Shroud burst absorption was truly OP, we would have heard about it a lot sooner than 10 months into the game. Moreover, Andele cites that – in direct counter-point to the recent statement that Death Shroud was not intended to prevent overflow or absorb fall damage – it was intended to do these very things when the devs patched it in; at the very least the fall damage absorption was intended. If it wasn’t, then that was one hell of an oversight on the devs part.

Regardless, in the 10 months we’ve had this mechanic available to us, it has been a total non-issue. Where, in the course of nearly a year, are the countless posts crying for nerfs to necromancers because of their OP and imbalanced Death Shroud burst absorption capabilities? They don’t exist because it was neither OP nor imbalanced. To the contrary, necros have been considered a joke, an easy kill batted around with CC and focus trained down to defeat.

The calls for nerfs were over the Dhuumfire/Terror combo; not our burst and fall absorption mechanic. Attention was only turned that way when it was discovered that Death Shroud could be used to access areas outside the map. I agree that’s not appropriate, but there are other ways to prevent that without nerfing Death Shroud.

Though it could be argued there are better ways of granting us burst and multi-target absorption, the devs took from us our current version with nothing to replace it (see glorious’ car analogy above). Furthermore, with their statements that necros are not to receive defensive boons such as aegis or invulnerability mechanics like evade, the devs have really painted themselves into a corner. What, exactly, can they give us to replace Death Shroud’s previous burst absorption if not a block, evade, or invulnerability buff?

Though it may open creative possibilities, I’m not willing to wait on a slow development process that may take months before we see a new burst absorption mechanic in the future while bereft of burst absorption here in the the present. Would it really be so game-breaking to revert our Death Shroud with regards to this one area until such time as they’re ready to release our new mechanic (assuming there’s one even in the works)?

They waffle back-and-forth so much with the necro profession, I don’t think it’s asking too much to just leave well enough alone with something that wasn’t really broken nor OP (the issue of falling outside the map aside) until they can finally make up their minds about what exactly they want necros to be in this game.

So many souls, so little time. ~ Kraag Deadsoul

(edited by Kraag Deadsoul.2789)

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Posted by: psygate.5632

psygate.5632

D’accord.

There was never any problem with us having a burst mitigation, like, all other classes do. We have basically no defense what so ever, except, well, protection in some cases, and our only burst mitigation got stripped away. I’m coming to think, that ANet just wants classes to be played in certain ways. Like they made thieves use d/p, since the other options are much less great. Please give us back what you have taken from us. Granted, I escaped 1-2 battles and certain death by shroudig and jumping off a cliff, but who cares? Knock back from warriors can throw you off a cliff. Every knockback can, but you can’t fear people off a cliff, so we are at a severe disadvantage here. Bring back the old shroud. I urge you.

Nostalgyus-Necromancer (Kodash)

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

The problem was not burst mitigation, it was burst mitigation that we gave nothing up for. It was burst mitigation that was base to every possible Necromancer build (at most, you had builds that could use it more than others, but every one had access).

Compare to the other class mechanics; only guardians and mesmers get burst mitigation as part of their class mechanics (ones that require no cost/benefit, but are merely built in). Mesmers get one every 60 seconds, Guardians get an almost copy of ours every 40 seconds, except it is uncontrollable (they could just as well Aegis my bone minion as they will a thief Backstab), 90s for a team-version. That is fine, those are strong yet balanced effects because they have such long CDs, and if you want to make them stronger (reduce CDs) you have to give something up via traiting.

Beyond that, every single other class has to give something up. Warriors might give up an offensive weapon to bring shield, guardians have to use a specific heal, elementalists need to give up utility skills, etc. All those classes had to give something up to get access to mitigation (although their mitigation was stronger). We gave up nothing, and that is not good design. The current system allows for skills like SA which are incredibly strong defensive tools for burst mitigation. All they need to do is make more things that are similar to that and we’ll be having our mitigation, and it will actually be more balanced.

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Posted by: psygate.5632

psygate.5632

All those classes still have an escape and can run. We cannot. We get no stability without 30 in soul reaping, thieves can always use the stunbreak into evade. So there’s that.

Nostalgyus-Necromancer (Kodash)

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

Escapes and running have nothing to do with burst mitigation, nor stability. Those are entirely separate issues.

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Posted by: Afya.5842

Afya.5842

The problem was not burst mitigation, it was burst mitigation that we gave nothing up for. It was burst mitigation that was base to every possible Necromancer build (at most, you had builds that could use it more than others, but every one had access).

Compare to the other class mechanics; only guardians and mesmers get burst mitigation as part of their class mechanics (ones that require no cost/benefit, but are merely built in). Mesmers get one every 60 seconds, Guardians get an almost copy of ours every 40 seconds, except it is uncontrollable (they could just as well Aegis my bone minion as they will a thief Backstab), 90s for a team-version. That is fine, those are strong yet balanced effects because they have such long CDs, and if you want to make them stronger (reduce CDs) you have to give something up via traiting.

Beyond that, every single other class has to give something up. Warriors might give up an offensive weapon to bring shield, guardians have to use a specific heal, elementalists need to give up utility skills, etc. All those classes had to give something up to get access to mitigation (although their mitigation was stronger). We gave up nothing, and that is not good design. The current system allows for skills like SA which are incredibly strong defensive tools for burst mitigation. All they need to do is make more things that are similar to that and we’ll be having our mitigation, and it will actually be more balanced.

I understand your point. But you have to notice those class have damage mitigation in very popular weapon. Warrior’s is GS3 which very warrior carry one. Guardian’s is in 2 of the 3 offhands and no one bring torch anyway, so if you use one hand weapon, you’ll definitely end up with some protection in your offhand. Mesmer’s is in sword 2, and it’s a very popular weapon, also the only melee. I can safely say, more than 50% of the players playing above classes have those skills in their build. And as you mentioned, that’s not the only block skill they can bring. You can have 6-7 of those skills on a guardian, while having perma-vigor.

I don’t think DS is ever intended to be just pop and gone. But we simply don’t have anything else so DS is our last resort. No one will need to use DS overflow if we have 2s evade in our weapons.

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Posted by: Blaine Tog.8304

Blaine Tog.8304

I tend to agree with Bhawb on this one. DS not overflowing wasn’t enough, so asking for it back isn’t going to help. (Though I really, really hope they give us back DS suicide jumps after fixing the map, which they should do anyway).

Anet needs to buff our survivability, though. I suspect they wanted to strip us down to the base as an experiment to determine exactly how much survivability and where, as they’re probably still scared silly of turning us into unkillable tank monsters.

I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.

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Posted by: Bhawb.7408

Bhawb.7408

Anet needs to buff our survivability, though. I suspect they wanted to strip us down to the base as an experiment to determine exactly how much survivability and where, as they’re probably still scared silly of turning us into unkillable tank monsters.

I think this is part of it. They had a massive bug on their hands, essentially halving our defenses in Death Shroud. I imagine they wanted to take away our overflow for a while, and realistically the two changes in one balance each other out overall, but differently (and the difference is really big in certain situations).

The problem will still end up being that in PvE ANet has a fetish for making every single boss have one stupidly powerful “killshot” that can 1hit (or very nearly) any build. The reality is that they will never be able to balance an HP pool with a mechanic they love so much that is designed completely around destroying HP pools. They need to realize this, and either stop with the bad (and it is bad) dungeon design, or they need to man up and give necromancers the tools they need to handle PvE mechanics. And that is going to take the form of Aegis/block/invuln/dodge/etc.

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Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Honestly, I would much rather a necro built for it to be a nigh unkillable tank monster that very slowly depletes the health of his opponent. At least then we would be the master of attrition we are supposed to be.

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Posted by: Andele.1306

Andele.1306

I really dont agree on the GIVE NECRO VIGOR/INVUL/BLOCK part, not having those and smarter positioning (and what used to be smart use of DS) is kinda core of the necro playstyle, alongide with facetanking 40k mobs that hit for nothing and being a chill demon AND i know for a fact that they knew/it wasnt “oh bug we just noticed” but a ninja nerf to DS since the WvWvW orb patch added the fall damage clause to the DS absorb.
Even if they reverted every buff and nerf back to beta, but left the prot on wells and the 3nd incarnation of Sarmor (60 seconds, prot and 3% on hit), we would be fine, in pvp deaths dont happen enough for DS not to get 10% life force on death, healing wouldnt be a problem, with old DS we could port around/be good enough scouts (since it used to drop your body as if defeated and then you move off as the black goo, then port back to where you were if you leave/body ports to you if kicked out by damage) and this kind of fake mobility, a lot of DS related traits would be way more useful than they are now (like seriously who uses the 25% slower degen or 25% speed in DS? or the vuln pulsing).
Hell even Shade isnt such a big “oh its so overpowered he cannot be killed” in comparison to the builds that eles and mesmers can do (16/40 and 5/8 seconds of no hits able to do anything to em) – used other light armors in comparison for obvious reasons.

But overall there are things i feel need to be fixed way before they try fixing DS:
Defiant vs cc stacking, Pulse stacking (whirlwind and burnings speed to be fixed just like Death lotus was to name a few), Camera issues, Terrain movement, pulls, cc behaviour, more advanced/AR dungeon like setups but more polished (as in requirement for at least one person to be tanky, someone to be dropping both defensive condis, someone to boon, someone to be a condition damage dealer, etc) and last but not least, allowing for the less used/unviable builds to be used/fixing how traits impact the game.

TLDR – necro shouldnt get cheap way to migrate damage but be manly man that can facetank zhaitan jormag kralka primo mordi and bubbles all at once, with working minions

When life gives you lemon, ask if its from a anime or manga.

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Posted by: Blaine Tog.8304

Blaine Tog.8304

They need to realize this, and either stop with the bad (and it is bad) dungeon design, or they need to man up and give necromancers the tools they need to handle PvE mechanics.

I vote for better dungeon design. It’s annoying that the only reason to take something other than DPS is because you don’t trust your pug-mates to dodge.

Honestly, I would much rather a necro built for it to be a nigh unkillable tank monster that very slowly depletes the health of his opponent. At least then we would be the master of attrition we are supposed to be.

Unkillable tank monsters are even worse game design. We need better sustain, but our sustain shouldn’t be so good that we don’t have to interact with our opponents. This was a big part of why the D/D Ele got hit so hard.

I main Ele and Necro, though I have an alt of each profession at level 80.
How to Condi Reaper on a budget
Everything I say is only in reference to PvE and WvW.