i main a necro and i run a power build. i’m sick of my terrible damage in pve compared to pretty much every other class. i feel absolutely useless in fractals. i cant reflect anything and my damage is mediocre. what else am i supposed to do? ‘Superior aoe’, nobody needs that. ‘run a condi build’? no thanks. i don’t want to run a condi build. ‘roll a warrior’. everyone plays a warrior. that’s the reason i play a necro.
i’m playing less and less now because i cant play how i want to. and i’ve invested so much time into my character…
i just wanted to share my thoughts. if i sound like a whiny kitten please tell me, lol
•— Venasity | Ven (Venusama.5103) — Necromancer — 8k+Hrs Played —•
Necro damage is better than half the classes when built properly (including warrior). Just it has to be carried by buffs and doesnt provide anything special. So I know how you feel.
I’m not sure what some of you are talking about. Main hand dagger is one of the highest DPS weapons in the game, and Death Shroud and Lich Form are incredible.
I’m not sure what some of you are talking about. Main hand dagger is one of the highest DPS weapons in the game, and Death Shroud and Lich Form are incredible.
Unfortunately, necros are one of the worst PvF classes in the game.
Condition damage is no joke, and when you can build up 4-5k bleed ticks + 400 poison + 1k fire and the occasional terror and torment, your damage is up there… and you can do it at range and have it tick when the boss is doing anything but invulns. Has the additional advantage that if you built up a few mins of poison, if there is a party wipe, you can often get back to the boss before a regen. The only real issue is that it requires that ramp-up… a ramp up may be fine on bosses, but not okay on trash in late level fractals. There you have to melt everything instantly, which forces zerker builds.
As for the position of necro as a zerker, I think they’re actually extremely solid DPS. They bring massive AoEs with wells and staff. Both DS (traited) and Lich Form pierce and hit like a truck. Dagger is amazing damage. If a Power necro is supported, they tip into the best DPS in the game. Unfortunately a lot of the Necro’s support abilities are kitten in Fractals. Building for healing support does nothing when everyone is one-shotted. Blinds have always been fractionalized to uselessness against bosses and trash is just for melting. You can bring good condition removal for the party, but everyone should have themselves covered anyways. Boon stripping is pretty useless in PvE. You can eek in regens and protections for the party, but guardian does that 100 times better. So essentially you’re left with nothing but a stick to hit people with. While it’s true that’s more than enough for any PvE content, it’s hard to justify that stick when I can bring my warrior that can toss more party support along (flags + elite literally can carry parties) with his DPS and heavy armor. Or guardian for reflects, aegis, stability and protection. Or mesmer for content skipping. So unless those roles are already being filled where one of the top DPS with your necro is better than fitting into GW2’s own trinity… there is no meta argument you can make for Necro. However at the end of the day, what’s most important: Meta or having fun? Play what you want and have fun. And as long as you can carry your end as PvE is predictable and easily surmounted with mediocre skills, anyone that complains can stuff it.
im glad to see some other people that share my views. im not interested in wvw or pvp so saying those are the benefits doesn’t really effect me. i run axe-focus / dagger-warhorn with the life blast might stack build thing. and i use lich. i do everything to maximize my power dps but i still feel its lacking.
•— Venasity | Ven (Venusama.5103) — Necromancer — 8k+Hrs Played —•
Single target dmg on par with warrior or not, without cleaves, our dmg to trashes are auto1/3. Yeah, iI know wells, which are some super high CD skills that don’t bring anything to the party.
In all seriousness I think I know what im talking about when it comes to power builds. Ive done the maths and so have a few others from the top dungeon guilds. If you want to maximise dps on a necro you go 30/25/0/0/15.
In all seriousness I think I know what im talking about when it comes to power builds. Ive done the maths and so have a few others from the top dungeon guilds. If you want to maximise dps on a necro you go 30/25/0/0/15.
Actually there are also plenty of “maths” that prove DS builds under 30/x/x/x/30 does more than 30/25/0/0/15 Dagger until there is 5 or more unique debuffs on the target. Add in the fact that you’re now doing it at 600 range able to be out of the cleaves and more easily avoid AoEs while in a form that also cushions your HP pool making you even more survivable and more easily able to play a full glass cannon build makes it deserve even more nods as any DPS > dead. And even putting the argument of which build has the DPS depending on whom’s spreadsheet you look at in the Dagger build favor, the second you add a second target, the DS build automatically wins. Of course then there is also the fact that the DS build can also afford to trait drain to heal (which has saved pugs from going down) or however else you want to build, and I’m starting to think the argument is in favor of DS.
So, yeah, the question is have you actually played a DS build beyond a theory craft?
I use to play the DS build yes. The aoe damage from the DS build is better but not by as much as you would think. Most encounters are single target so that slight increase in mob clearing but sacrifice in boss clearing dps is kind of a bad decision. The single target dps of the dagger build beats the DS build with only 3 conditions maintained (necro can maintain 3 conditions on its own easily). And thats assuming you have 100% uptime of DS and are always above 50% lifeforce. So yeah DS build is clearly the best build….
Add in the fact that you’re now doing it at 600 range able to be out of the cleaves and more easily avoid AoEs while in a form that also cushions your HP pool making you even more survivable and more easily able to play a full glass cannon build makes it deserve even more nods as any DPS > dead.
This does not make DS better dps than dagger. If you cant play the dagger build effectively then dont play it. I was simply stating to maximise damage (assuming player skill and survivability is not an issue) you go with the dagger build. Besides, for the limited occasions where you do have multiple targets and the DS build would be more effective. You can still burst aoe with the dagger build and it does plenty enough damage to clear the group so long as your party isnt terrible.
I really hope anyone that isnt biased ignores that so called “advice”. The DS build has its merits which i have mentioned in the post above. Its also a safer, more pug friendly build. But it is not a build that you should take if you are interested in contributing as much as possible damage wise to the group.
If you’re going strait power, you’re gonna need to spec into death shroud to maximize your damage. Do something like 30/10/0/0/30, picking up:
1.life blast grants might
2.Axe training
3.dhuumfire
4.crits give 1% lifeforce
5.life blast pierces and causes vulnerability
6.death shroud cooldown/death shroud drains slower (your choice)
7.50% crit chance in death shroud
bring the well of suffering, signet of spite, blood is power, consume conditions, and lich form.
these traits, berzerker gear, axe+focus/dagger+warhorn is pretty much the definitive direct damage build. You want to spend as much time as possible in death shroud. Sadly, direct damage necros lack a lot in the AOE/cleave department. This is why warriors are currently king in this cleave Direct damage meta. The best way to supplement this is to try and target the enemy in the back with life blast, and then position as many enemies as possible between you and him. This should allow you to deal as much damage as possible with your life blast.
Actually DS is 80% up, and that’s what number crunches I’ve seen base it on. As I still almost never get touched (and Lich is there for when I eff up and get knocked out of DS early), my DS tends to last 40 to 60s depending if I use swarm during DS and if I have Reaper’s Precision traited. I have no issue slipping past 50% DS as 10 stacks of might > 5% boost (which you can’t give yourself with dagger). At that point I want to leave DS anyways to drop wells. Drop DS > swap to Axe (or dagger if I have inanimates to destroy where my DS crit doesn’t help)/Warhorn > Axe/Dagger 2 while running back to melee range > cast wells > Warhorn 5 > Swap back to staff (yes I use staff over slipping in focus – staff increases DS DPS, still gives me chill and regen casts along with a blast finisher… not too worried about vuln stacking as wells + Life Blast does that already) > Cast Staff 3 for the chill and field > Staff 4 to drop a blast finisher on poison to trigger Weakness and does pretty good damage > Back to DS as at that point I’m full.
I’m curious where you’re pulling numbers from. Whether you are supported with might or not makes a difference. And of course there is the big thing that most spreadsheets don’t cover: maneuvering downtime. You’re not going to be daggering Kholer’s face while he’s spinning. You’re not going to be standing in pbAoEs. Generally avoiding an attack is downtime, and melee tends to have that more than ranged. This is also why ranged is less than melee damage in most games as that + run up time is DPS range can do to make up for it. With DS vs Dagger being single % DPS argument, it slips into the fact that no spread sheet will prove it one way or the other. My own personal play time has shown me that DS has provided me with better DPS than dagger. Could be that the big hits and auto-crits of DS makes me feel better (and I can’t deny hitting for 11k with every attack makes me smile). Could be the ease of having a cushion against mistakes while still being 100% glass damage makes it where I know my DPS is more reliable. But the TL;DR is that there are more reasons than just the pen and paper numbers. But then there are more reasons to run dagger as well. I personally don’t think anyone is losing out by picking either build unless they hit the wall of any class that tries to go zerker: survivability.
I did the numbers with similar buffs because like I said necro needs to be carried by other classes for buffs. DS build is slightly less reliant which makes it a good pug build.
DS auto takes about 1.3 seconds so even if you consistantly hit for 11k you are doing less than 9k dps to a single target. Which is quite bad compared to dagger auto.
You’re not going to be daggering Kholer’s face while he’s spinning. You’re not going to be standing in pbAoEs. Generally avoiding an attack is downtime, and melee tends to have that more than ranged.
Obviously you dodge away when he spins. And incase you didnt know, kholer reflects projectiles while he spins so you cant dps with life blast either. Both builds are restricted on damage output during that attack. Avoiding attacks is downtime but even ranged you have to avoid some attacks. And a competent player really doesnt lose much dps in melee because they use their dodges effectively and only when needed. Higher risk, higher reward in terms of damage output and faster kill times.
Spoj’s build has more DPS than the 30/0/0/0/30 + 10 build that nemesis & others have used. How much is up for debate, but it’s better. It also requires you to be in melee 100% of the time. As spoj pointed out, you don’t lose much from dodging in a good group. The caveat there is good.
Pugs mean longer fights, and the longer the fight goes on the worse it gets for the melee necro who’s spamming dagger auto. I could go into more depth here, but suffice to say that in a pug your DPS “uptime” is much more important than spreadsheet numbers, and the DS build has far higher DPS uptime in a pug simply because you can stay at 600 range and (if necessary) kite around the crippled mob with no loss in DPS.
The issue over which necro power build to use isn’t important though, it never has been. The real issue is even in the best case a power necro isn’t as good as almost any other class for PvE at the highest level. Unfortunately without a complete rework of skills, utilities, and the inherent PvE mechanics I don’t see that changing anytime soon.
TL;DR: Play what you want. Min/maxing groups won’t take a necro anyways.
I hit about 6 – 6.5k average per ds1 auto attack. its not as inefficient compared to warriors as many think, and depending on the situation, its a lot better because of the range. its still not the best tho, but that’s fine for me. condis are way more enjoyable in wvw anyways.
Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE
Well I run 30/10/0/0/30 with DS and wells. Runes are 3x +20% might dura and sigills for battle. DS hits about 6-9k and penetrates wich is wich some good positioning the same as a cleave, even better to be honest. Also I constantly got 10-20 stacks might. The wells are dealing great damage and also blind <3. Axe 2, dagger aa, just use this for some burst and weapon switch for battle sigills and the main “aa” is DS1.
Ziggs Ironeye – Engineer | Madame Le Blanc – Mesmer | Mentor (PvE) | EU
“Mentoring engineers / mesmers and showing you what you can do with your fantastic class!
Just pm me for my advice! Always eager to help!”
Recently swapped from 30/10/0/0/30 to 30/25/0/0/15. I prefer the latter, at least with my usual dungeon crew.
Will not go deeper into the build wars, roll with what you feel comfortable with.
Other than that, as mentioned before, powermancer as such is a bit lacking in dungeons as it’s rather selfish, not bringing anything useful for the rest of the party. And it’s pretty difficult for me to say that as I main a necro and really enjoy playing it.
Well what does a necro do? Damage, Heal a bit with wells and removing conditions / blind. Thats it :o
Ziggs Ironeye – Engineer | Madame Le Blanc – Mesmer | Mentor (PvE) | EU
“Mentoring engineers / mesmers and showing you what you can do with your fantastic class!
Just pm me for my advice! Always eager to help!”
6-9k is mind numbingly low dps. Considering the aftercast on lifeblast. You shouldnt be proud of that. And even piercing it doesnt compete with a warrior. Necro single target dps can compete with a warrior under extreme conditions, but using the DS build you would end up falling short.
→ DS penetration <- it’s compared to cleave too 3x 6-9k
Ziggs Ironeye – Engineer | Madame Le Blanc – Mesmer | Mentor (PvE) | EU
“Mentoring engineers / mesmers and showing you what you can do with your fantastic class!
Just pm me for my advice! Always eager to help!”
If you’re going strait power, you’re gonna need to spec into death shroud to maximize your damage. Do something like 30/10/0/0/30, picking up:
1.life blast grants might
2.Axe training
3.dhuumfire
4.crits give 1% lifeforce
5.life blast pierces and causes vulnerability
6.death shroud cooldown/death shroud drains slower (your choice)
7.50% crit chance in death shroud
bring the well of suffering, signet of spite, blood is power, consume conditions, and lich form.
these traits, berzerker gear, axe+focus/dagger+warhorn is pretty much the definitive direct damage build. You want to spend as much time as possible in death shroud. Sadly, direct damage necros lack a lot in the AOE/cleave department. This is why warriors are currently king in this cleave Direct damage meta. The best way to supplement this is to try and target the enemy in the back with life blast, and then position as many enemies as possible between you and him. This should allow you to deal as much damage as possible with your life blast.
That’s exactly my build, Only I picked Close To Death instead of Dhuumfire. I think it’s more fitting for a Powermancer and just plain better… Why did you pick Dhuumfire?
-> DS penetration <- it’s compared to cleave too 3x 6-9k
And warriors cleave without doing kitten dps. Trying to justify a build because it has piercing doesnt work. The damage from lifeblast isnt good enough even with piercing. You would need to hit about 12k consistantly with lifeblast and pierce to compete with warrior. And im sure I dont need to tell you how unreliable piercing is compared to real cleave. Theres no point comparing pierce/cleave dps when looking at necro. Focus on single target or pick another class.
-> DS penetration <- it’s compared to cleave too 3x 6-9k
And warriors cleave without doing kitten dps. Trying to justify a build because it has piercing doesnt work. The damage from lifeblast isnt good enough even with piercing. You would need to hit about 12k consistantly with lifeblast and pierce to compete with warrior. And im sure I dont need to tell you how unreliable piercing is compared to real cleave. Theres no point comparing pierce/cleave dps when looking at necro. Focus on single target or pick another class.
even in your full “ascended” stuff auto dagger does not do 12k either per second.
The best build is still and always will be the one you are comfortable with not some “math” people do because they think they are smart or whatever.
TL;DR There just isn’t a perfect all-around setup for pve power necro to bring single target dps, multi-target dps and team buffs at the same time. So go conditionmancer/hybrid or go other class. :P
30/x/x/x/30 is a nice solid build for necro. I ended up with Blood Magic & Transfusion for PvE.
It’s fairly solid, with very sexy AoE. Somewhere like a invasion, with lots of mobs in rows, it’s super good.
20/0/20/20/10 has been my latest enjoyed spec.
Ya keep DS’s piceing/vuln/might giving AutoAttack.
TransFusion + staff mark of blood keeps your minions up nicely. (In wimpy places without 1shot mechanics)
Dagger + Minions do super damage. The minions siphon add damage per attack they do scales with your power.
So it’s a psycho single target focused damage, but with some decent AOE, bit of odd burst heals.
-> DS penetration <- it’s compared to cleave too 3x 6-9k
And warriors cleave without doing kitten dps. Trying to justify a build because it has piercing doesnt work. The damage from lifeblast isnt good enough even with piercing. You would need to hit about 12k consistantly with lifeblast and pierce to compete with warrior. And im sure I dont need to tell you how unreliable piercing is compared to real cleave. Theres no point comparing pierce/cleave dps when looking at necro. Focus on single target or pick another class.
even in your full “ascended” stuff auto dagger does not do 12k either per second.
The best build is still and always will be the one you are comfortable with not some “math” people do because they think they are smart or whatever.
Please read the post properly. I said 12k lifeblasts which is about 9k dps. Fully buffed over the top dagger auto gives 11k dps. Dagger auto with banners, food, fury but no might or vuln gives 5.7k dps. To beat that lifeblast would have to hit 7.5k every single hit. Not to mention dagger actually gives better dps than 5.7k because you can easily get vuln and might to boost it up further.
In all seriousness I think I know what im talking about when it comes to power builds. Ive done the maths and so have a few others from the top dungeon guilds. If you want to maximise dps on a necro you go 30/25/0/0/15.
in pve yes 30/25/0/0/15 is more raw dps, if you ever want to walk into wvw you better go 30/10/0/0/30 as a power mancer or you will spend all your time CCd
-> DS penetration <- it’s compared to cleave too 3x 6-9k
And warriors cleave without doing kitten dps. Trying to justify a build because it has piercing doesnt work. The damage from lifeblast isnt good enough even with piercing. You would need to hit about 12k consistantly with lifeblast and pierce to compete with warrior. And im sure I dont need to tell you how unreliable piercing is compared to real cleave. Theres no point comparing pierce/cleave dps when looking at necro. Focus on single target or pick another class.
even in your full “ascended” stuff auto dagger does not do 12k either per second.
The best build is still and always will be the one you are comfortable with not some “math” people do because they think they are smart or whatever.
Just because you don’t believe in math doesn’t mean there is not a max dps setup :/
rofl <_>
If you’re going strait power, you’re gonna need to spec into death shroud to maximize your damage. Do something like 30/10/0/0/30, picking up:
1.life blast grants might
2.Axe training
3.dhuumfire
4.crits give 1% lifeforce
5.life blast pierces and causes vulnerability
6.death shroud cooldown/death shroud drains slower (your choice)
7.50% crit chance in death shroud
bring the well of suffering, signet of spite, blood is power, consume conditions, and lich form.
these traits, berzerker gear, axe+focus/dagger+warhorn is pretty much the definitive direct damage build. You want to spend as much time as possible in death shroud. Sadly, direct damage necros lack a lot in the AOE/cleave department. This is why warriors are currently king in this cleave Direct damage meta. The best way to supplement this is to try and target the enemy in the back with life blast, and then position as many enemies as possible between you and him. This should allow you to deal as much damage as possible with your life blast.
That’s exactly my build, Only I picked Close To Death instead of Dhuumfire. I think it’s more fitting for a Powermancer and just plain better… Why did you pick Dhuumfire?
If you’re running zerker gear with the trait giving 50% more crit in DS, It almost guarantees you’ll get burning every time the trait is off cooldown, Which gives more consistent damage. However, looking at it again close to death seems like the better choice (giving an overall 10% damage boost in the long run). I always thought close to death was 20% more at 33% hp for some reason. Guess I was wrong.
I think it is a little sad that there seems to be no really good choice for the 10 remaining points in 30|x|x|x|30+10 builds.
As I only play in more or less random groups, I like to bring some support. The odd heal and condition removal really helps when you can’t be sure someone else will do the job. Also well of suffering + 100% DS crit chance really helps in buffing our miserable AoE/cleave damage.
I would really like to see the 20% well-CD trait being moved into the adept tier.
Classes you take for support and utility all have the relevant CDR traits there: Guardian has shout and consecration cooldowns as adept-tier traits, the mesmer has his glamour cooldown trait there.
(yes, this post might not be applicabe to organized group play. I know. I don’t have an organized group. Also I know that other classes can do support better. That is why I often play guardian in any not-utterly-boring dungeon.)
Its kind of interesting to read a thread like this on the necro forum – squeezing out the last ounces of DPS, competing with warrior DPS, etc. It’s all so eerily WoW-like.
I’m not dissing the discussion; maximizing one’s effectiveness is a legitimate goal and it shows that some of the negativity about necros is misplaced.
But as much as they might resolve some of the DPS questions, I am glad that there are no meters or gearscore inspections in GW2.
I dont understand why just because necro is a sub par class for pve people think they shouldnt maximise its effectiveness in dungeons. Noone has a problem with other classes recommending full melee optimised builds. Many of them have become commonly recommended. However in the necro forums everyone recommends sub optimal builds every single time. Its really disheartening to see a newbie ask for a dungeon build and then people start recommending things like the DS build. Its ok in pugs yes, but its still a gimmicky fun build and that is all.
Power weapons are single targeted this is why they aren’t so viable in wvw or pvp.
I would definitely prefer a power necro if they added an aoe direct damage weapon.
Condition damage gets nerfed with every patch and loses its viability slowly. The next patch includes a condition cleansing skill which is another nerf for conditions.
