Guild Wars 2

Before cry babies get Necro nerfed into the ground because of conditions:

Necros have almost NO viable stun breakers. They are arguably one of the most control-vulnerable classes in the game.

Necros only have 900 range with a Scepter. Use a 1200 range weapon and they can only attack with Staff, which is significantly slower at applying conditions.

Strafe. Most Necro attacks are targeted AoEs. Keep strafing and changing directions and most Necros won’t be able to get a bead on you.

Thanks.

Before you people cry about imbalance please post a video of you playing and your build so the community can determine whether you have a right to your claims. I’m 99% sure most of the people QQing either have sub par gear, builds, and movement (Back peddle, Clicking, Key turning, not dodge rolling). I strongly believe if these things apply to you then you have no right to come to the forums and whine. You are not playing the best you can be playing so of course good people are going to make short work of you.

I recently made a necro just for funsies and it’s amazing how people don’t do anything when I place marks on the floor with the staff….they just run right through it. Honestly necros aren’t op in the slightest; the only thing that kitten blocks me a little with necros are fears, but even then those are mostly minor inconveniences at best lol.

well hate goes back, first it happen to bm ranger without reason, now it comes to necros and engins.
better ppls start like all classes :P

but well. you have to agree, necro is atm a bit to strong, so decent nerfs are rly need and come, just watch sotg.
it have a reason why much ppls have start play necro now and not less friendlist teams are rly good with 2 necros in team.

our bm ranger is now also a necromacer player, and on 2. day playing this he was allrdy a rly decent player with this Oo
just wonder a bit there.

i think necromancer will stay rly good after next patch.
but atm hes just a bit op.

Necromancers need the offensive combination of Terror and Burning to be nerfed in some way without killing condi builds (which a Terror nerf would do). The problem is right now that single combination is too strong, in every other situation Necromancers aren’t OP at all, in fact we’re still in need of help (although the patched helped a bit). But that single combo is capable of putting out so much pressure that people just don’t have counterplay outside of trying to kill the Necro before he can cast anything.

Also, once they get that combo back in line, then we can really buff what needs buffing: our ability to “stay in the pocket”.

Otter.6348:

Necros have almost NO viable stun breakers.

Some wars have figured it out, and are running really hard to counter stun knockdown daze builds. It lowers our condition stacking uptime causing poor damage combined with their removal of conditions.

Bhawb.7408:

Necromancers need the offensive combination of Terror and Burning to be nerfed in some way without killing condi builds (which a Terror nerf would do).

Totally agree. What they should do imo is removing the burning trait and nerf somehow the aoe condi spam. My fear is they are going to overnerf necro condi spec, making it pretty much up. It’s not like something like this did not happen in the past.

They just need to rebalance that single combo. Nothing else is necessary, but that single combo needs to be looked at, and it is probably Dhuumfire that is going to need to see nerfs, as almost every condi build relies on terror in PvP.

Fully agree Bhawb and that is exactly the approach I have been pleading with the devs to take all along…..tone down the unusual combos that are OP…not the base abilities themselves because they are individually NOT OP. And in no way are we OP outside of those very few outlier combinations….like you said we actually need a bit of hand up in several aspects of our gameplay.

Bhawb.7408:

They just need to rebalance that single combo. Nothing else is necessary, but that single combo needs to be looked at, and it is probably Dhuumfire that is going to need to see nerfs, as almost every condi build relies on terror in PvP.

You can replace burning with some more bleeds and it’ll be the same. That’s why terror damage or duration should be looked at before even thinking in nerf Dhuumfire.
And ofc, a 30 point trait will always be more powerful than a 20 trait point. Believe me, they won’t touch our burning.

Nerf terror and you kill non-Dhuumfire condi builds flat out, if it wasn’t for terror condi builds would be like sending 5 year olds to war in cardboard equipped with pool noodles. Its cute to see them pretend to be important and dangerous, but hardly a real enemy.

Otter.6348:

Necros have almost NO viable stun breakers. They are arguably one of the most control-vulnerable classes in the game.

Personally I’ve never had a problem here. Spectral Armour is great, stun breaker and granting you protection really helps negate an incoming spike of damage. Death Shroud is another great tool, both for absorbing incoming damage, as well as getting any abilities going off when you enter Deathshroud (Enfeebling Blood weakens, for even more damage mitigation). Hell you can even Doom your enemy while you are stunned.

Basically, complaining about Necros stunbreakers is kind of moot, because Necromancers have different ways of dealing with things than other classes. You can’t just play a Necro like you want to play any other class, as we Necro’s have different ways of mitigating damage. The lack of stability can be pretty annoying though.

Personally I never really understood the complaints about this class or that class not having a “viable” 1200 range weapon. Sure it is nice to have long range like that, but it is not required. If you are fighting at 1200 range, you are probably either doing PvE or fighting against a zerg… in the case of PvE your enemies are stupid and easy to overcome, while fighting a zerg you aren’t going to hit your intended target, but you are going to hit a whole lot of unintended targets, which means that you’re still doing some nice damage.

Yes Necromancer got some very nice buffs recently, but I’m pretty sure that the accusations of Necromancer being OP is mostly just bad players trying to find a scapegoat, as those types of players always have their scapegoats lined up.

As has been said elsewhere on the Necro forums, there are a lot of flavour of the month Necro players who are playing Necro now because they heard that it was OP. Personally the way I handle enemy Necromancers hasn’t really changed at all since that patch… because really, not that much has changed… its just that you run into a whole lot more Necromancers out there due to this perception.

Otter.6348:

Before cry babies get Necro nerfed into the ground because of conditions:

Necros have almost NO viable stun breakers. They are arguably one of the most control-vulnerable classes in the game.

People who are afraid the necro will be “nerfed into the ground” need to understand this: the source of all the complaints is burning, the damage spikes you can combo with it is too big.
This:

vicious.5683:

You can replace burning with some more bleeds and it’ll be the same.

…would actually overnerf the necro (damage wise). Part of the problem is the extra cleansing spot that burning is covering. So replacing it with bleeding would absolutley not be the same.
It has been suggested many times already, but here it is again: burning →torment.

On the other hand we have our survivabilty: still very underpowered.
That’s why necro promoters get super defensive when it comes to nerfing damage… as if the lack of withstanding focus fire entitles us to have more damage.
No, survivability will be buffed. Regardless Burning/Terror will be nerfed, and Bhawb already said it: in favor of build diversity Dhuumfire is probably getting the nerf, not Terror.

TL;DR: Although replacing Dhuumfire burning with Torment is possible, it creates its own set of prickly issues to deal with. My suggestion is to either 1) reduce Dhuumfire proc from 4 sec to 3 sec, or 2) Move Dhuumfire from a Spite GM to a Blood GM slot.

flow.6043:

vicious.5683:

You can replace burning with some more bleeds and it’ll be the same.

…would actually overnerf the necro (damage wise). Part of the problem is the extra cleansing spot that burning is covering. So replacing it with bleeding would absolutley not be the same.
It has been suggested many times already, but here it is again: burning ->torment.

Agree that replacing burning with bleeds would be bad.

But replacing burning with Torment would probably be even worse due to:
1) the much lower damage multiplier for torment
2) loss of a condition type
3) probably a much shorter range
4) significant change in dynamics.

1) The formula for burning damage is:
(0.25 * Condition Damage) + (4 * Level) + 8 damage per second

The formula for Torment damage is:
(0.0375 * Condition Damage + 31.875) per stack per second

At 1000 condition damage:
- Burning does 578 per sec
- Torment does 69.4 per sec

That is, Torment does only 12% the damage of burning per sec.

So, replacing Dhuumfire (4 sec burn) with Torment would require roughly 8 stacks of Torment to be equivalent to burning. Thus, to decrease that damage would require less stacks. For example, 5 stacks would do 347 per sec, or 60% of the current burning damage per sec, which might be reasonable.

However, if the target is moving, then Torment is applied twice per sec, so now the damage would be 347*2=694 per sec, which is higher than burning. So, tuning the number of stacks would be very tricky to balance.

2) Removing burning removes another condition type, and cleansing Torment from DS’s Tainted Shackles would now also cleanse the Torment from this GM trait.

3) Burning via Dhuumfire has the range of the weapon being used. On the other hand, Tainted Shackles has a limited range of only 600. Would it be reasonable to allow Torment to apply all the way to 1200 (especially when multiplied with Epidemic)? What would that do to a zerg? It would also greatly reduce the effectiveness of kiting a necro, but I don’t know if ANet would want necros to have that kind of control at that range.

4) Having that kind of nearly constant CC on targets via a proc (rather than via a weapon’s skill, such as mesmer Illusionary Counter) is probably not the intent of ANet. Coupled with Epidemic it probably would be too much pressure. (On the other hand, has anyone seriously complained about the synergy of Dhuumfire burning and Epidemic?)

My suggestion is to instead either:
1) Reduce Dhuumfire proc from 4 sec to 3 sec, or
2) Move Dhuumfire from a Spite GM to a Blood GM slot.

1) Since Dhuumfire is 30pts into spite, its duration is always a minimum of 4*1.3=5.2 sec. Therefore, (again using 1000 cond dmg), total burning damage would be 578*5=2890.

Reducing from 4 sec to 3 sec results in an 3*1.3=3.9 sec of burning, or 3*578=1734 or 4*578=2312 damage. So, roughly a 30% reduction in damage over the length of the proc.

2) Moving Dhuumfire to a Blood GM (call it “Boiling Blood”!) removes the automatic 30% cond duration from Spite. It also rewards tankier builds rather than adding more reward to glass cannons, as it does now. This is clearly a far more radical change, but ANet can’t have it both ways: they can’t want us to be an attrition class and yet position traits which create a lopsided bonus to glass cannons.

TheAgedGnome.7520:

1) the much lower damage multiplier for torment
2) loss of a condition type

That would be the point.

TheAgedGnome.7520:

3) probably a much shorter range

Why?

@ balancing torment’s damage for such a trait: Since PvP is the problem you’d have to assume that your target is always moving. No player stands still because he has torment on him.
So in a pure condi build torment on a moving target is about 25% of burning. If the trait would stay the same expect for the condition, then either 2 or 3 stacks would be appropriate.
However, other players suggested models w/o icd but a lower chance to proc, which could work as well.

necros have a lot of viable stun breakers they just have 0 value when you run into stun/daze/fear whatever. you can use your stun breakers but there’s still more of it coming your way before your CD’s are gone. without stability there’s very little you can do about it. I even tried that DS stability but it’s just way too short and it heavily depends on you actually having some life force at first place, not to mention you got to sacrifice that stability in builds which would actually benefit from it most.

dhuumfire should be simply removed like asap without further pingpong ideastorming.

flow.6043:

TheAgedGnome.7520:

3) probably a much shorter range

Why?

Is it reasonable to have such a CC ability as Torment out to 1200 range? Again, I pose it as a potential issue, not a showstopper.

flow.6043:

…@ balancing torment’s damage for such a trait: Since PvP is the problem you’d have to assume that your target is always moving. No player stands still because he has torment on him.
So in a pure condi build torment on a moving target is about 25% of burning. If the trait would stay the same expect for the condition, then either 2 or 3 stacks would be appropriate….

Well, darnit, that makes some sense. But maybe 4-5 stacks would be preferable rather than 2-3, since the target can instantly drop the damage in half by standing still? Then again, if Terror+Dhuumfire synergy is the issue, then maybe 3 would make more sense (since a Feared target will be moving).

I would like to add MM opinion too. Id like to see some DS skill for MM as well. Yes there is discussion concerning condis now and yes MMs were buffed too, but we are still useless in wvw and minions die too quickly. IMHO MMs are worse in pve and wvw than conditionmancers now.

I have said this a number of times but what I think Necromancer needs is not higher dps but higher heal scaling. Necromancers need a stat bonus that grows according to incoming damage. So do Warriors. Spectral skills could help but Protection is a flat damage reduction with a terminally long cool-down – not at all what the Necro needs.

Some kind of reward should be due to Necromancers running with significant toughness and vitality. Putting points into either line is, for me, taking a nerf for a specific skill set rather than a choice of defensive play. Consider these two points: High toughness does not prevent being kicked around like a football. High vitality/heal does not do much for anyone but the necromancer.

To correct some of this, one idea is for a trait in Death Magic to proc stability on knock-downs. One for Blood Magic is a trait giving % CD reduction on healing skills for spike damage over half the Necro’s health and to proc a life-steal from all in range if health drops below 20%.

I think “necro is OP” is pretty much nonsense. But if something has to be done, choose one of the following: 1) Replace Dhuumfire with a 1 or 2 second chill on crit, no cooldown; 2) Swap the +30% condition duration in the spite tree with +30% crit damage in the SR tree; 3) Swap the -40% condition duration food and the -25% condition duration from Melandru, making Melandru -20 condition/-20 stun/-20 condition and stun for 2,4,6.

In exchange, give us healing through death shroud to improve survivability. If unkillable necros are really a concern, give it a -33% penalty.

vlad.3467:

I would like to add MM opinion too. Id like to see some DS skill for MM as well. Yes there is discussion concerning condis now and yes MMs were buffed too, but we are still useless in wvw and minions die too quickly. IMHO MMs are worse in pve and wvw than conditionmancers now.

WvW MMs will always be sub par to AoE builds except in solo content. AoE > everything in WvW, and the only AoE you get is Death Nova; and it seems against their philosophy to do something like give us spammable minions so all we need to do is summon minions to be effective.

Also you can be a condi MM. And I’m not sure what this thread has to do with MMs at all?

sas.6483:

I think “necro is OP” is pretty much nonsense. But if something has to be done, choose one of the following: 1) Replace Dhuumfire with a 1 or 2 second chill on crit, no cooldown;

no offense, that actually sounds so op

it so op that i will seriously make a gimmicky build thay maximaize theuse of chill

chill is kinda like weakness. most class do not have good acess to the condition which most people dont realize its true strength until they are stack permentally

loseridoit.2756:

sas.6483:

I think “necro is OP” is pretty much nonsense. But if something has to be done, choose one of the following: 1) Replace Dhuumfire with a 1 or 2 second chill on crit, no cooldown;

no offense, that actually sounds so op

it so op that i will seriously make a gimmicky build thay maximaize theuse of chill

chill is kinda like weakness. most class do not have good acess to the condition which most people dont realize its true strength until they are stack permentally

Then put a cooldown on it. Chill on crit as a 30 point spite trait would remove the damage that people are complaining about, give a condition that fits in with “attrition” necro theme, and give powermancers a snare to work with so that they could actually be hard to disengage from (which is what Anet says is the case, but isn’t).

Fjandi.2516:

Bhawb.7408:

Necromancers need the offensive combination of Terror and Burning to be nerfed in some way without killing condi builds (which a Terror nerf would do).

Totally agree. What they should do imo is removing the burning trait and nerf somehow the aoe condi spam. My fear is they are going to overnerf necro condi spec, making it pretty much up. It’s not like something like this did not happen in the past.

Agree.

Necro finally got what he needed to be viable. They must NOT trow them in the shadows again.

Fine tuning the combos that latest patch made possible is needed tho.

I have concerns about the nerfing/gating of base abilities individually to prevent outlier combos….if condition A and condition B are too powerful together then put them on a common/shared cooldown…..do NOT nerf them individually nor make them individually difficult to use.

No viable stun breakers…? Which game are you playing?

And also, quick moving targets are not really a problem for a good necro when you have so many control skills that chill/cripple/fear/what not.

But I do agree that we are not THAT over the top. I faced one of those terror+burn necros in WvW the other day. She could basically apply a 7-8 sec burn, on top of massive fears (30% condi duration with Spite, 40% with food, and whatever else she had) and she ate my poor little suppot anti-condition Warrior 1 v 1, which never happened before, ever – not from a condition based person. I agreed she was OP, but when I faced her in a group setting, she got CCed and melted to the ground with no way to escape and no way to refill her DS. Then I wasn’t so sure if she was OP after all ’Tis quite interesting indeed…