Ready Up - Additional Infos
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Now my question: What trait combination did you use to produce this result? What do you have access to in the future version of our traits that you can’t already do now?
Seriously, what??
Not sure about all the traits but I believe the largest factor has to do with the removal of the 25 stack cap limit on conditions. Add all other reasonable sources of bleed with high crit chance + Barbed Precision at 66% chance & i think the achievable total stacks could be quite scary.
I dont like the nerf to Barbed at all. the damage you got out of precision as a conditionmancer was already pretty bad. if anything, they shouldve buffed the bleed-on-crit.
Indeed.
Not sure about all the traits but I believe the largest factor has to do with the removal of the 25 stack cap limit on conditions. Add all other reasonable sources of bleed with high crit chance + Barbed Precision at 66% chance & i think the achievable total stacks could be quite scary.
In the current system condi necros can reach 25 stacks with the help of Barbed Precision, but not maintain it. And that is PvE only!
If Barbed precision was gone entirely you would probably only average around 20 stack on a single target.
And what “other sources of bleed with high crit chance”? Sigil of Earth has an icd, and there are no other ways to get bleeding on critical hits.
(edited by flow.6043)
And what “other sources of bleed with high crit chance”? Sigil of Earth has an icd, and there are no other ways to get bleeding on critical hits.
I was looking at all skill & effects that can apply bleed that you most likely would use in a fight which would add to the stack, increase dmg per tick. I was thinking that maybe in Arenanet’s testing with Barbed Precision & other bleed sources they achieve fairly high constant bleed stacks with spikes above 25.
I don’t see constant condition pressure above 25 but I could see some scary condition spikes above 25 for some professions in a 1v1 scenario. Maybe I’m over thinking it but I just feel none of us know how condition are now going to play out with this 25 limit removed. For 1v1 we might not notice much change but add two or more profession’s source of condition & now were looking at some scary stack sizes that can be applied.
Where it’s bad, it’s REALLY REALLY kittenING BAD. Consume nerf is legendary levels of bad. A few other bad things here and there but nothing that makes the same waves as Consume.
Still though…….it is better than any of our other heals even with the nerf!
Unfortunately.
…Though that is almost entirely because of its condi cleanse ability. If raw healing is your biggest concern, the increased cooldown change makes the other healing skills a bit more appealing, especially if they are traited and CC isn’t.
(edited by Foefaller.1082)
its amazing that they have to nerf our good skills to make our bad ones look more appealing. is that freaking ridiculous or what?
its amazing that they have to nerf our good skills to make our bad ones look more appealing. is that freaking ridiculous or what?
Simmer down now before they cause auto attacks to apply vuln to us as well.
Also, RE: Barbed Precision. I think the combo they were afraid of was BP + Death Perception +Parasitic Contagion + Blood Bond. Transfusion hits 9 times, will crit almost every pulse with DP, and at 66% proc chance, would almost certainly trigger BB in shroud for in shroud healing, as well as leaving an average of 6 stacks of bleeds on up to 5 targets. With at least 1000 Condi Damage, that would be just over 300 healing per condi tick while all those bleeds are up, which is better healing over time that any healing skill we have, even pre CC nerf.
End result: effectively unkillable Necro.
Also, RE: Barbed Precision. I think the combo they were afraid of was BP + Death Perception +Parasitic Contagion + Blood Bond. Transfusion hits 9 times, will crit almost every pulse with DP, and at 66% proc chance, would almost certainly trigger BB in shroud for in shroud healing, as well as leaving an average of 6 stacks of bleeds on up to 5 targets. With at least 1000 Condi Damage, that would be just over 300 healing per condi tick while all those bleeds are up, which is better healing over time that any healing skill we have, even pre CC nerf.
End result: effectively unkillable Necro.
Like I said, this combination of skills and traits (except for Blood Bond) is already possible.
Also, if you use Transfusion to stack bleeding Parasitic Contagion can’t heal you because it doesn’t work through Shroud. And 6 stacks aoe isn’t exactly amazing, you can easily get this with other skills as well, and with a longer duration than 2 seconds per stack.
So that kind of healing will be possible anyway, you don’t need Barbed Precision and Deathly Perception for it. Besides, 300 hp/s isn’t exactly immortal considering it won’t work half the time and we don’t have any other way of mitigating damage.
Also, RE: Barbed Precision. I think the combo they were afraid of was BP + Death Perception +Parasitic Contagion + Blood Bond. Transfusion hits 9 times, will crit almost every pulse with DP, and at 66% proc chance, would almost certainly trigger BB in shroud for in shroud healing, as well as leaving an average of 6 stacks of bleeds on up to 5 targets. With at least 1000 Condi Damage, that would be just over 300 healing per condi tick while all those bleeds are up, which is better healing over time that any healing skill we have, even pre CC nerf.
End result: effectively unkillable Necro.
Like I said, this combination of skills and traits (except for Blood Bond) is already possible.
Also, if you use Transfusion to stack bleeding Parasitic Contagion can’t heal you because it doesn’t work through Shroud. And 6 stacks aoe isn’t exactly amazing, you can easily get this with other skills as well, and with a longer duration than 2 seconds per stack.
So that kind of healing will be possible anyway, you don’t need Barbed Precision and Deathly Perception for it. Besides, 300 hp/s isn’t exactly immortal considering it won’t work half the time and we don’t have any other way of mitigating damage.
It’s possible, but the current Parasitic Contagion only heals for 5% of outgoing condi damage, so the amount of healing you can get with that trait will be double of what is possible now: Probably more, since Condition damage will be higher than current over 700 and the many ways Necromancers can apply poison will now stack in intensity.
But your right on the Shroud part, which made me realize I’m thinking of the wrong thing; It wouldn’t be Deathly Preception in Soul Reaping to proc Blood Bond for crazy necro survival ability, It would be Corrupter’s Fervor in Death Magic; 300 toughness and a 20% reduction to incoming condition damage as long as you can apply conditions 10 times every 8 second. Which would be easy as hell with the right trinket if you were applying bleed 2 out of every 3 crits. That would be on top of the 180 toughness you’d have while in shroud, the 3s protection you’d get when you leave it, and the additionial 10% reduction of incoming damage to anyone that’s poisoned.
Then you do Vampiric Wells for more protection and some life siphon, take a damaging well or two (since life siphon can’t crit on it’s own) Blood Bond, Life from Death or Vampiric Presence, Plague sending and your choice of Master trait (I’d personally do Master of Corruption and slot Corrupt Boon and CC) Don’t stay in Death Shroud, just pulse it for Transfusion, Torment and protection, or to absorb damage when you’re CC’d. Do Krait or Nightmare runes, Rabid or Ramager’s PvP trinket, Accuracy with Torment or Doom sigils. Scepter/Dagger with Staff, Utilities CC, Corrupt Boon, Well of Corruption, and Plague Signet (which is now the shortest CD stunbreak, even untraited other than Foot in the Grave) with Plague as the elite. Corruption skills won’t hurt as much since not only will you’ll have four ways to transfer them off you, applying them on yourself will probably trigger stacks of Corrupter’s Fervor.
Now, would twice as many bleeds on crits change that from a sturdy Necro build to an unkillable Necro build? Dunno, but with all the way Necromancers can now benefit from spreading conditions, I can see how a couple extra bleeds might make a huge difference.
(edited by Foefaller.1082)
Actually, Now that I think some more, the crazy build they were probably trying to avoid was all fours traits combined; Old Barbed Precision + Blood Bond in Blood Magic, Corrupter’s Fervor in Death Magic, and Deathly Perception in Soul Reaping.
You’d loose out on the might stacking and damage traits from Spite, but you’d be able to proc Blood Bond regularly to siphon in Shroud and keep high stacks of Corrupter’s Fervor with the crit chance from Deathly Perception on what is basically a Shroud power build thanks to stacking bleed on two of every three crits.
(edited by Foefaller.1082)
Actually, Now that I think some more, the crazy build they were probably trying to avoid was all fours traits combined; Old Barbed Precision + Blood Bond in Blood Magic, Corrupter’s Fervor in Death Magic, and Deathly Perception in Soul Reaping.
If only there was a way to avoid having a necro with 4 specializations! :P
But seriously, Corrupter’s Fervor will certainly be a nice tank trait (ironically more so than Unholy Sancturay) but maxing out this trait will be easy even without having Barbed Precision at all.
Same with Blood Bond. You don’t need Barbed Precision to for those traits, so in conclusion:
Now, would twice as many bleeds on crits change that
No.
And even if they did, the logical thing to do would be a duration reduction, not a lower chance to proc.
Actually, Now that I think some more, the crazy build they were probably trying to avoid was all fours traits combined; Old Barbed Precision + Blood Bond in Blood Magic, Corrupter’s Fervor in Death Magic, and Deathly Perception in Soul Reaping.
If only there was a way to avoid having a necro with 4 specializations! :P
But seriously, Corrupter’s Fervor will certainly be a nice tank trait (ironically more so than Unholy Sancturay) but maxing out this trait will be easy even without having Barbed Precision at all.
Same with Blood Bond. You don’t need Barbed Precision to for those traits, so in conclusion:
I might have mentioned four traits, but it was only from three specializations; Blood Magic, Death Magic and Soul Reaping. I dropped the idea of picking up Curses, sorry for the terrible wording.
And I agree, Corrupter’s Fervor will not be hard to cap on… for a condition build. A power Necro, on the other hand, won’t be able to hit that cap reliably, much less maintain it for a whole fight. A 66% chance from BP might make maintaining that cap a lot easier, without having to focus most of your damage output on cleansible and resistible conditions.
Now, would twice as many bleeds on crits change that
No.
And even if they did, the logical thing to do would be a duration reduction, not a lower chance to proc.
Again, I don’t think it’s the damage from those bleeds that had them worried, but how multiple applications of those bleeds would let you proc things like Blood Bond and Corrupter’s Fervor frequently without having to heavily invest in any Condition-based skills and traits.
Again, I don’t think it’s the damage from those bleeds that had them worried, but how multiple applications of those bleeds would let you proc things like Blood Bond and Corrupter’s Fervor frequently without having to heavily invest in any Condition-based skills and traits.
I doubt that. Blood magic gives you mark of evasion for free which gives you 2 stacks of bleed. You only need 2 more procs after that for Blood Bond to proc. Blood Bond has an ICD to restrict it. Corruptors Fervor has a limited duration per stack and a stack cap. Plus both of those traits are in completely different lines. I severely doubt those traits are the reason for barbed nerf. And i really doubt the proc rate was the issue. Because even with the reduced proc chance the trait is enough to trigger both those traits plenty.
Honestly, I think the combination they were afraid of was just the range increase on Deathly Swarm…
#24 leaderboard rank North America.
And I agree, Corrupter’s Fervor will not be hard to cap on… for a condition build. A power Necro, on the other hand, won’t be able to hit that cap reliably, much less maintain it for a whole fight. A 66% chance from BP might make maintaining that cap a lot easier, without having to focus most of your damage output on cleansible and resistible conditions.
Power builds have almost the same access to conditions as condi builds. Perhaps they don’t have geomancy sigils or a scepter to apply condis with auto attacks, but other than that power necros need a single Chillblains or Tainted Shackles against 5 targets to instantly max out Corrupter’s Fervor. Or any pulsing aoe skill like Locust Swarm, Well of Suffering/Darkness or Corrosive Poison Cloud which will definitely be taken with Putrid Defense. And this doesn’t even have to be a team fight, you can hit clones or turrets as well.
And as spoj pointed out, Corruptor’s Fervor itself is limited by (easily maxed) stacks and duration, it wouldn’t make sense to limit other condi applications in addition to that.
As for Blood Bond, 4 stacks is a rather low threshold, and it has a 15-20 sec cooldown. Any build can easily trigger this without traiting Curses at all.
Honestly, I think the combination they were afraid of was just the range increase on Deathly Swarm…
Deathly Swarm doesn’t get a range increase.
Besides, how would increased range of any skill make Barbed Precision better?
As for Blood Bond, 4 stacks is a rather low threshold, and it has a 15-20 sec cooldown. Any build can easily trigger this without traiting Curses at all.
It can be done with any build but not reliably. A power build for instance has to use 2 out of his three condition applying skills to trigger this so a dodge or cleanse can suriously prevent this skill from proccing.
EverythingOP
I can’t wait for the necro community to be able to put these changes through the gauntlet already.
Except Consume Conditions. That skill is totally kittened.
As for Blood Bond, 4 stacks is a rather low threshold, and it has a 15-20 sec cooldown. Any build can easily trigger this without traiting Curses at all.
It can be done with any build but not reliably. A power build for instance has to use 2 out of his three condition applying skills to trigger this so a dodge or cleanse can suriously prevent this skill from proccing.
By those 3 skills I’m assuming you mean: Mark of Blood, Mark of Evasion, Dark Path?
What about Weakening Shroud, condi transfers and all the ways to corrupt vigor with Corrupt Boon, Well of Suffering, Signets of Suffering, Unholy Feast, Spiteful Spirit, Path of Corruption… and if all that isn’t enough power necros can still take Blood is Power, Signet of Spite, a geomancy sigil or an off-hand dagger.
Really, if power necros wanted to increase their bleeding uptime just for the sake of Blood Bond there are ways to do that.
Anyway, Blood Bond is certainly not the reason for nerfing Barbed Precision. Condition builds have enough access to bleeding without Barbed Precision to trigger Blood Bond as soon as it’s off cooldown, the fact that some other builds can trigger it less reliably is irrelevant.
(edited by flow.6043)
As for Blood Bond, 4 stacks is a rather low threshold, and it has a 15-20 sec cooldown. Any build can easily trigger this without traiting Curses at all.
It can be done with any build but not reliably. A power build for instance has to use 2 out of his three condition applying skills to trigger this so a dodge or cleanse can suriously prevent this skill from proccing.
By those 3 skills I’m assuming you mean: Mark of Blood, Mark of Evasion, Dark Path?
What about Weakening Shroud, condi transfers and all the ways to corrupt vigor with Corrupt Boon, Well of Suffering, Signets of Suffering, Unholy Feast, Spiteful Spirit, Path of Corruption… and if all that isn’t enough power necros can still take Blood is Power, Signet of Spite, a geomancy sigil or an off-hand dagger.
Really, if power necros wanted to increase their bleeding uptime just for the sake of Blood Bond there are ways to do that.
First you said any build, so I took a standard power build and added blood magic to it. Secondly you shouldn’t count condi transfers since you have to apply those stacks and transferred conditions are not “applied by you” (I did a test with parastic contagion on that one).
Corruption is a bit shady because you need an opponent with vigor and you have to corrupt it (being random and all).
Also realy sigil of geomancy to proc blood bond? I think your better off with sigil of blood for self healing.
EverythingOP
The point I was trying to make is: if you want Blood Bond to trigger reliably you can make that happen regardless of the type of build you’re playing.
Secondly you shouldn’t count condi transfers since you have to apply those stacks and transferred conditions are not “applied by you” (I did a test with parastic contagion on that one).
Of course they are “applied by you”.
Once you transfer conditions they are your own, it’s exactly the same as if you used any other condi skill or trait.
And I’m not sure how you tested Parasitic Contagion, but it most certainly does include transfered conditions for the amount it heals you.
Does signet of the vampire even work well,,, it always seemed incredibly ineffective.
Does signet of the vampire even work well,,, it always seemed incredibly ineffective.
Using in Valk build, works wonders but you have to use it right. JUst takes a lot of getting used to.
But allows me some insane hp/s with the set up i have.
(edited by Sigmoid.7082)
Does signet of the vampire even work well,,, it always seemed incredibly ineffective.
Using in Valk build, works wonders but you have to use it right. JUst takes a lot of getting used to.
But allows me some insane hp/s with the set up i have.
What setup if you don’t mind me asking?
Does signet of the vampire even work well,,, it always seemed incredibly ineffective.
Using in Valk build, works wonders but you have to use it right. JUst takes a lot of getting used to.
But allows me some insane hp/s with the set up i have.
What setup if you don’t mind me asking?
Well decided to try things out with siphons and signets for before patch. Just valk amulet, signet heal, plague, WoS and WoP. Very survivable build all in all and the damage isnt bad either.
Really have to make the most of dagger 2 though since it can heal you for around 4.5~5k
Secondly you shouldn’t count condi transfers since you have to apply those stacks and transferred conditions are not “applied by you” (I did a test with parastic contagion on that one).
Of course they are “applied by you”.
Once you transfer conditions they are your own, it’s exactly the same as if you used any other condi skill or trait.
And I’m not sure how you tested Parasitic Contagion, but it most certainly does include transfered conditions for the amount it heals you.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/balance/Deathly-Swarm/4372927
EverythingOP
I’m not sure what you did, but your testing method must have been flawed in some way.
Transfers are your own conditions, they always have been, even 9 months ago when you made those screenshots.
Sorry I meant locust Swarm, Warhorn 5. I think they changed the trait because of that.
#24 leaderboard rank North America.
Signet of the Locust is getting a range increase, not Locust Swarm… and not Deathly Swarm :P
I’m not sure what you did, but your testing method must have been flawed in some way.
Transfers are your own conditions, they always have been, even 9 months ago when you made those screenshots.
I tested this myself in PvE a couple months ago. It may be a PvE problem.
I went to the Silverwastes and did a similar test on Devourers (although I was too dumb to switch out krait runed armor at first) trying to see if the damage from Deathly Swarm transfers got modified by my condition damage. I think it was for a forum post as I was under the assumption duration+ condi damage modified the remaining duration and the damage.
Not only did the bleeds not get modified by condition damage, the transferred bleeds appeared to do 0 damage to the devourers. In the linked post/screen the 1 second passing seems to show damage, but I don’t know what happened in that second. Maybe mob health bars being larger and their condition damage being low makes it look as if they’re not being DPSed, but I could have sworn I transferred like 7 bleeds a couple times and their hp bars didn’t budge. That would explain why Parasitic Contagion isn’t healing at all in screen, because the transferred bleed is doing 0 damage or is too low of healing to show up.
I couldn’t figure out condi duration though. Let those dust devil things stack like a minute of blind on me then tried to control deathly swarm and kite dust to see if the duration went up. It appeared go up by like 20-40 seconds but I can’t remember if I decided they just hit with another blind AoE.
Again, this may be an unnoticed bug in PvE.
Edit: Oops I meant Drytop
(edited by Balekai.6083)
Ok I just tested everything… and now I feel stupid -_-
The only transfer that turns the condition of someone else into your own is Epidemic.
So if A inflicts bleeding on B and B transfers it back to A it will not only tick with A’s condi damage but it won’t even appear in B’s combat log. A sees his own condis ticking on himself.
But when B uses Epidemic on A, nearby targets will tick as new conditions for B even though they are copies of A.
I could have sworn that transfers hadn’t always worked like this, but considering Tim’s test is rather old, I’m not sure anymore. :/
I could have sworn that transfers hadn’t always worked like this, but considering Tim’s test is rather old, I’m not sure anymore. :/
You’re not the only one. Drarnor has said the same to me as well that time.
EverythingOP
I could have sworn that transfers hadn’t always worked like this, but considering Tim’s test is rather old, I’m not sure anymore. :/
You’re not the only one. Drarnor has said the same to me as well that time.
Yeah, I made a mistake back then. Things have always been unclear with transfers.
I thought it had always been that way because transferred conditions tick with the appliers condition damage. You can have 0 condi damage and as long as you transfer high damage conditions it does hit ticks for you.
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