Looking more into the Reaper, I’m noticing that the shroud auto-attack damage according to the wiki is 456/456/912.
Holy moly, that’s absolutely insane. One Auto-chain (while cleaving) is almost the same damage as a full Mug/CnD/Backstab combo from a D/D thief on about the same cast time, which as everyone is probably aware, is a ton of damage.
Can anyone verify if these numbers are correct or are just speculation? I feel like this kind of damage output is just totally obscene coming from rapid, large-radius AOE auto-attacks with the amount of defense available via DS and incoming stability bonuses.
Can’t comment on the numbers, but will say since we loose acess to all our 6-0 skills, having high damage SHOULD be a-ok. After all, melee range carries more risks, and we don’t have much lockdown or chase potential while in reaper shroud, plus the fact we have to charge it using a limited set of skills. It NEEDS to just exude power because if a person gets out of 600 range, we won’t be able to catch them in reaper’s shroud and will need to drop out to use a pull or boost our speed.
Yes, but I feel like dealing 6.5-8k + 6.5-8k + 13-15k AOE damage every 1.3s is a little bit much, don’t you think? Do realize that this would put necromancers as an easy first or second place DPS in the game via a cleaving auto-attack alone. Putting it simply, the DPS is double that of Lich Form’s.
Just seems a wee bit high o.O
Yes, but I feel like dealing 6.5-8k + 6.5-8k + 13-15k AOE damage every 1.3s is a little bit much, don’t you think? Do realize that this would put necromancers as an easy first or second place DPS in the game via a cleaving auto-attack alone. Putting it simply, the DPS is double that of Lich Form’s.
Just seems a wee bit high o.O
So what, new necro pve meta… it’s a good thing, stop asking questions.
Most likely the person who put it up put already-scaled values. It will deal decent damage, but it won’t be hitting Lich hard.
Those are numbers from tooltips. If you notice any of those skills for elite specs shouldn’t have coefficients with them. That Necro was probably running celestial or were maybe running rabid with some stat enhancing effects like the trait in DM giving 14% toughness as power while in shroud. Once we can get actual base damage and scaling, we’ll know how good it is.
Those are numbers from tooltips. If you notice any of those skills for elite specs shouldn’t have coefficients with them. That Necro was probably running celestial or were maybe running rabid with some stat enhancing effects like the trait in DM giving 14% toughness as power while in shroud. Once we can get actual base damage and scaling, we’ll know how good it is.
I believe it was soldier. Also just as a note because I feel like being nitpicky there is no such thing as base damage for direct damage.
Yes, but I feel like dealing 6.5-8k + 6.5-8k + is a little bit much, don’t you think?
Considering it competes with the already hard hitting Life Blast, which is ranged. A melee substitute sort of has to be stronger to be worth taking. Reminder that the skill design in GW2 is supposed to have melee attacks be stronger than ranged ones due to the inherent risk of being in melee range.
As far as I’m aware most Reaper/GS skill coefficients are pretty low though towards the 0.8~ direction. It’s really too early to say anything.
I believe it was soldier. Also just as a note because I feel like being nitpicky there is no such thing as base damage for direct damage.
Soldier honestly seems too low, but I don’t think it was outright mentioned in any case. We’ll find out one HoT drops. And as far as base damage goes, it’s easy to know what is meant when referring to the number on the left of the coefficient.
Mug, cloak and dagger, backstab combo has s total damage coefficient of somewhere around 5.
The reaper auto attack chain has a total damage coefficient of 2.4. It’s not as strong. It’s even weaker than the dagger auto attack chain just hits more targets. Lastly the full reaper auto chain skill takes 2.5s without the trait or 2.1s with it due to after cast and animation time.
Stop worrying OP.
How do you know the coefficients? or how do you calculate it?
I calculated the coefficients from the stream. You could work out the power by adjusting your ingame power to match the BiP tooltip damage shown on stream. Estimate of power was 1950. It was heart of the mists so i assumed exotic greatsword which means a weapon power of 1000.
Greatsword
Dusk Strike – 0.861
Fading Twilight – 0.861
Chilling Scythe – 1.013Gravedigger – 2.027
Death Spiral – 0.912
Nightfall – 0.731
Reaper’s Grasp – 1.013
Reaper’s Shroud
Life Rend – 0.608
Life Slash – 0.608
Life Reap – 1.216Death’s Charge – 1.013
Soul Spiral – 2.787
Executioner’s Scythe – 1.520, 2.027, 2.533
Other Stuff
Shouts – 0.345
Elite Shout – 1.379
Chilling Nova – 0.137
The auto-attacks are actually on the low side for slow two handed weapons. And Reaper/Necro still has much less damage modifier traits than all the other classes. So as it stands the damage is not going to be over the top. Gravedigger spam is the only potentially overpowered thing. But considering its cast, after cast and relatively low coefficient even that isnt going to be completely out of line.
(edited by spoj.9672)
Okay. There were no coefficients posted on the wiki, so I was just comparing them by values to what the numbers were for a variety of skills for other classes. If those numbers are post-gear, they’re actually pretty low. I was just really weirded out by the fact it looked like the damage was going to be better than Lich form.
The damage coefficients makes me kind of sad. When you have the movement of Pyramid Head, you have to have the damage of Pyramid Head. And if your calculations are correct this wont be the case. If they aren’t among the best in melee DPS it will be just as unplayed as necros were now, not to mention how hard it will be to kill people in WvW even if you get into melee. But we will see how it turns out. But the damage really should be higher than in Lich form.
(edited by Arche.7326)
Just realised i calculated with an incorrect weapon strength for exotic greatsword. Weapon strength should be 1047.5. Corrected values are as follows.
Greatsword
Dusk Strike – 0.822
Fading Twilight – 0.822
Chilling Scythe – 0.967Gravedigger – 1.935
Death Spiral – 0.871
Nightfall – 0.698
Reaper’s Grasp – 0.967
Reaper’s Shroud
Life Rend – 0.580
Life Slash – 0.580
Life Reap – 1.161Death’s Charge – 0.967
Soul Spiral – 2.660
Executioner’s Scythe – 1.451, 1.935, 2.418
Other Stuff
Shouts – 0.330
Elite Shout – 1.316
Chilling Nova – 0.131
Which means all the coefficients are actually a bit lower than initially calculated.
spoj, you are not making my thoughts on Reaper improve with that. XD
The painful yet honest truth. :>
Even the your early calculation would have made it hard to fight in WvW against dominant melee classes. If they do not buff them a fair bit, by that I mean that they give them coefficients that are disgustingly good I will complain on the forums untill they ban me or they fix it.
On another note i think that unless they give us access to fantastic movement and defensive boons/buffs galore doing slightly less damage than a “full Mug/CnD/Backstab combo from a D/D thief” in reapers shroud is not unreasonable, as in most cases we will be kited untill death and never reach our target. We will be the Ganondorf of GW2, which would be hilarious.
We need active defence. Its as simple as that. We are the only class that does not have enough to survive new lupi without help. This is not acceptable.
I agree that it is a problem, a different problem entierly, but a problem nonetheless. But I doubt Anet will ever give us that, considering that they seem to think us broken or something. Should we just start the riot now or wait for HoT?
Did you guys ignore the part of the stream where they said the numbers are not final?
Did you guys ignore the part of the stream where they said the numbers are not final?
I did not miss that part, but they did say that the chill numbers were a bit high, and it sounded like they thought that it was too strong. The glaring weaknesses of the necro persists even if Reaper has broken melee dps, as we lack defenses, just as spoj said. If you were to ask me, most numbers on the reaper, including the chill, excluding CDs and Cast times, should be increased. It needs to hit like a train, not just slightly harder than the rest of the melee classes and we are far from that with those numbers.
Did you guys ignore the part of the stream where they said the numbers are not final?
That doesnt mean we cant give feedback about numbers.
Feedback about numbers is still important, if anything because they aren’t final. If we point out that the given coefficients were too low they can increase them.
Can we get a post where we post the predicted coefficients and base damage numbers are posted so that we may get all Reaper feedback collected in one place? Mainly asking spoj and Bhawb as you are a bit more expirienced with these things than I. Or have I missed such a post?
There are no base damages for direct damage, so those coefficients spoj posted are really all that matters, paired with CDs/attack speeds, so we’ve got everything we need here to mention it.
Can we get a post where we post the predicted coefficients and base damage numbers are posted so that we may get all Reaper feedback collected in one place? Mainly asking spoj and Bhawb as you are a bit more expirienced with these things than I. Or have I missed such a post?
can use that to get the coeffs of pretty much all the skills from the wiki for reapers. also FYI there is no such thing as “Base damage” because damage is a function of variables and has no start point unlike condition damage and healing.
I got bored and made a base spread sheet of what sort of realistic damage numbers you can get out of the coeffs we have been shown.
Gs – multiply by your crit damage
Reaper Shroud – assumed 100% critical chance in shroud and 220% crit damage.
Bear in mind all those numbers are above 50% hp so no close to death and are all on targets with 2600 armour. Also these are all damage mods you can get yourself, it doesnt include banners. All in all its not incredibly strong.
I did miss 5% damage mod from spiteful talisman but not massive change. We really lack % damage mods.
(edited by Sigmoid.7082)
So, based on those numbers, dagger would be better <3 opponents over 50% health, RS would be better >=3 opponents over 50%, and Gravedigger for anything under 50% health? If so, that sounds pretty good.
BTW, I’m asking if i’m right, i’m not certain on the animation times.
You all probably have guessed I’m not all read up on GW2 mechanics, which I really should be before I dive headfirst into balance discussions (my sincere apologies). Well, regardless of my obvious lack of knowledge of how damage is calculated I thank you for the nice calculations.
From what i gather dagger is better in all situations when there are 2 targets or less and you have more than 82% crit chance because shrouds 100% crit chance increases damage without fail.
(edited by Sigmoid.7082)
Assuming Reaper you are going to have 100% crit in a group even outside RS because of decimate defences. From a quick look at the coefficients. Either we will be dagger auto attacking (maybe gs dagger rotation) or camping RS above 50% (depends on RS auto attack speed). Once we get to 50% it will be gravedigger spam (assuming the after cast isnt ridiculous). Once we get to 25% you will definitely want to swap into RS to cast executioners scythe and then go back to grave digger spam.
But you can clearly see, with how unsure i am, that the damage isnt nearly enough. Considering cast times and after casts could potentially result in us dagger camping even with Reaper. Which would be a total design failure on anets part. Lets hope it doesnt come to that.
(edited by spoj.9672)
Dagger auto > Grave digger spam because it takes to long to cast. Dagger auto is 2.1s
From the video, the bit where he did 3 grave diggers in a row took around 5.4s. Still 1.8s a cast.
Sheer coeff per unit time dagger still wins out, in 2.1s daggers done 2.8 where gs spam has an average of ~2.3 over 2.1s. Its only worth to flash shroud for exe scyth off cooldown. Literally GS and shroud only win out damage wise when you have more than 2 targets at the current coeffs we have been shown.
Thanks for explaining. It sounds like the biggest issue is that gravedigger isn’t good enough in single target situations. I have no problem with dagger being better in single target with >50% health, i think it should be better. But it sounds like gravedigger is kinda lackluster as an execute skill. I was also thinking that RS may be the best as a way to gain might/vuln stacks, which would be nice. That way we would have to choose between more damage now or more damage later, which isn’t a bad choice to have to make, since it forces you to weigh your options.
This is, of course, assuming I’m understanding everything. I might not (in which case I really appreciate the clarification you guys are providing).
In PvE there might be a separate issue, but the problem is if Dagger auto is better than a skill that takes such a long time to cast, it will never be good in PvP. This presents a pretty huge issue, the entire point of Reaper GS being “slow” was the idea that if you managed to land the slow attacks there would be an appropriately stronger-than-usual payoff. If Reaper doesn’t have that payoff though, it goes the way of Corruptions, where skills have too large of “costs” (in this case the “cost” is being really slow) without appropriate power.
Honestly, i figured Dagger would always be better in PvP. It has good, fast damage, lf generation, and a cool little evil face animation at the end. GS could be good as an off weapon spec, but it would operate like staff, used in certain situation (and staff would probably still be better since with reaper it gives you 2 sources of chill). What reaper offers in pvp is more chill, damage reduction from chilled foes, better might stacking and lf generation on chilled foes, and a different shroud that has some mobility and a stun that might be more your style. But in pve its all about pure damage, right? Where having the choice between using your shroud and upping the groups damage through vuln stacking if that isn’t there or using your higher damage weapons is a good one, since choice is good. I don’t think we should be encouraged to sit in any shroud, we should be encouraged to use it strategically and carefully, so it shouldn’t be the best source of constant damage (any issues with GS are separate from that statement and are even worse sometimes if that is the intent).
Dagger auto > Grave digger spam because it takes to long to cast. Dagger auto is 2.1s
From the video, the bit where he did 3 grave diggers in a row took around 5.4s. Still 1.8s a cast.Sheer coeff per unit time dagger still wins out, in 2.1s daggers done 2.8 where gs spam has an average of ~2.3 over 2.1s. Its only worth to flash shroud for exe scyth off cooldown. Literally GS and shroud only win out damage wise when you have more than 2 targets at the current coeffs we have been shown.
Yeah but thats assuming they actually cast it as fast as possible on stream. If its 1.8 seconds that means it has an after cast of 0.55 seconds. Which is absurdly high and hard to believe that its true.
Also id really hope they wont make that big of a kitten up with damage balance when they explicitly stated GS should be slow but hit much harder to compensate.
In the video yeah its being cast as fast as possible. It’s aftercast is huge because of the second spin before you land. I’m sure they designed the skill to have two hits instead of the one it has now because 1) second spin , 2) in the initial video you can hear and see it strikes twice.
By the time we see it again I almost expect it to either hit twice or have a different animation.
Well look on the bright side….least revenant has most of what we wanted for necromancer right?
In the video yeah its being cast as fast as possible. It’s aftercast is huge because of the second spin before you land. I’m sure they designed the skill to have two hits instead of the one it has now because 1) second spin , 2) in the initial video you can hear and see it strikes twice.
By the time we see it again I almost expect it to either hit twice or have a different animation.
I don’t think it is, since there is a notable period between any animation at all as well as the skillbar icon not flashing for some time in between.
In the video yeah its being cast as fast as possible. It’s aftercast is huge because of the second spin before you land. I’m sure they designed the skill to have two hits instead of the one it has now because 1) second spin , 2) in the initial video you can hear and see it strikes twice.
By the time we see it again I almost expect it to either hit twice or have a different animation.
I don’t think it is, since there is a notable period between any animation at all as well as the skillbar icon not flashing for some time in between.
At 12:30 is where it is cast twice yeah there is a bit of a gap between casts. About 0.1s but that’s not the bit I timed. Watch the fight at 43:40 and you can see 1) the skill doesn’t stop flashing as its being cast 3 times and you can see clearly when it’s being pressed for the next cast. It’s still very slow.
So, if I understood it correctly, if I hit someone with 2600 armor with an exotic GS, with no buffs and 2300 power and not counting crit, I will hit for 761 x2 and 895. A guardian who does the same thing will hit for 759 x2 and 1111, with faster attack time.
(edited by Arche.7326)
Looking more into the Reaper, I’m noticing that the shroud auto-attack damage according to the wiki is 456/456/912.
Holy moly, that’s absolutely insane. One Auto-chain (while cleaving) is almost the same damage as a full Mug/CnD/Backstab combo from a D/D thief on about the same cast time, which as everyone is probably aware, is a ton of damage.
Can anyone verify if these numbers are correct or are just speculation?
The reaper is a melee class with no reflects or blocks & depends on utilities for stun breaks. It will be a ping pong ball.
Life force generation on the reaper looks awful if not using dagger. Reapers who take dagger will be stuck with worthless chill traits. Reapers who don’t take dagger have no access to immobilize & will have bad life force generation.
Reaper ranged damage is feeble, and reaper has no defense against range either.
It has no real defense against immobilize or soft CC spam other than a duration reduction trait.
The reaper is slow. Slow attacks on greatsword & no leaps or targetable z axis teleports on the class.
Reaper attracts have huge windups with big telegraphs and will be trivial to dodge.
The reaper shroud trades its teleport & instant cast fear for a bad leap skill and a stability skill with a cast time and aftercast. The reapers are really going to miss necromancer Death shroud chill on #2, intant cast on #3 and immobilize on #5.
The reaper has terrible sustain. Terrible healing skills and feeble potential life force generation outside of melee range.
Reaper pulls don’t chill/cripple & they have aftercast.
Changes to chill means that chill has no effects on mobility skills. Chill has no coolown effects on thieves (and potentially zero or almost zero effects on Revenants).
Reapers bring almost nothing in terms of group support.
Tl;DR. The damage numbers better be big. They may even be too small,. The reaper is a sitting duck that offers nothing but Heavily telegraphed damage.
(edited by nekretaal.6485)
I’m pretty sure if the Reaper comes out with bad coefficients and numbers it’s going to be Consume Conditions all over again.
Surely Anet knows where we stand PvE numbers wise and just why the reaper design would need those big numbers with the least amount of active defense/mobility for a melee spec and also more annoying interruptable long cast times.
The reaper shroud trades its teleport & instant cast fear for a bad leap skill and a stability skill with a cast time and aftercast. The reapers are really going to miss necromancer Death shroud chill on #2, intant cast on #3 and immobilize on #5.
I wouldn’t call it a “bad leap skill”. It’s 600 units every 7 seconds, or 85.7 units/second.
Compare to the following:
Rush (Warrior GS5): 54.54 u/s (1200 range, 2 second cast, 20 second cooldown)
Whirlwind Attack (Warrior GS3): 40.9 u/s
Swoop (Ranger GS3): 80 u/s
Leap of Faith: (Guardian GS3): 38.7 u/s
Hornet’s Sting/Monarch’s Leap (Ranger S2): 108.1 u/s (ignoring aftercast and turn time).
Savage Leap: (Warrior S2): 68.6 u/s
Ride the Lightning (Elementalist AD4): 30 u/s
Heartseeker: 120 u/s (effective cooldown).
Rocket Boots: 43.4 u/s
Two leap skills in the entire game beat out Death’s Charge for overall mobility. Death’s Charge may not be as good for disengage as some other skills, but it actually makes us more mobile than most builds. 600 distance is all you need to get out of AoE’s, and the short cooldown actually lets us run down all but the fastest builds in the game over long distances if we’re careful with our life force.
Also, the Stability is instant-cast in Reaper’s Shroud. Only the Fear has a cast time.
Yes, but I feel like dealing 6.5-8k + 6.5-8k + 13-15k AOE damage every 1.3s is a little bit much, don’t you think? Do realize that this would put necromancers as an easy first or second place DPS in the game via a cleaving auto-attack alone. Putting it simply, the DPS is double that of Lich Form’s.
Just seems a wee bit high o.O
Well mesmers hit for 10k
Eles Burn Tick for utpoo 10k..
Reapers hitting for 8k Dmg isnt really anything to todays meta, so no i dont think it’ll be too strong ,
Can i see Reapers being Hard nerfed and Just becoming Useless, yes i can its pure balance will depend on doing more damage then anything else due to no mobility no fast paced Attacks and being locked behind only being able to pull to you.
Reaper nerfs are inevitable and the likelyhood is u wont find much use in GS after it happens lol… but u never know i guess.
Couple of things people may not see.
Last point to keep the post short, an literally go on forever on the theory craft on what we have been shown, is a pve point. Reapers can drop unyielding blast for bitter chill. Not only will it cause your auto to apply aoe vulnerability it has synergies in shroud. It makes applying vuln to group of trash or clumped enemies extremely easy. Take chilling nova and with skill+trait synergy you can alomst instantly bring a group of mobs to 15~25 vuln without trying. single taget or longer fights you can take unyielding for better sustain vuln instead of instant burst. Can also take zerk gear and dhuumfire. max might and curses will end up doing just under 2k burns a tick in burns to up to 3 targets.
What reaper lacks is damage right now and a way to deal with movement skills because of the movement change ( again i dont see it as being a huge deal but others do ). Once that gets fixed then reaper will be fine with what we have been shown for those who like that play style.
(edited by Sigmoid.7082)
Yeah reaper just needs the damage numbers to be good. Necro in general needs active defence though.
(edited by spoj.9672)
I learned my lesson from the bleeding equation blog post.
The number will come out different. Still a week after release Jon Peters will come out and say “Reapers a bit too stronk”
Yeah reaper just needs the damage numbers to be good. Necro in general needs active defence though.
This. Not even like we need it kitten upon every skill or trait either, just literally a few options to nullify abilities here and there.
Honestly GS needs to hit like a truck. The attacks are more then slow enough for people to dodge or use active defense to mitigate them. If you say you took Jason as a concept then you have to know what happens when Jason does catch you….
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