Guild Wars 2

To me, Reaper looks bloody fantastic.

But that’s all it does. It looks cool. But when you look at the numbers, and what the skills actually do, it does nothing for the necromancer in general (a class that’s been left in the dust for a long time in terms of what it needs to be on par with the other classes). All of the core issues with the class are still glaringly present.

Chronomancer got a skill to make them key to party content, as well as a 25% speed boost in their kit (something requested for a long, long time), dragonhunter (crappy name aside) gets powerful long ranged attacks, something they were sorely lacking.
Reaper? All reaper gets is what we’ve always had. damage (though admittedly a decent cleave weapon at last will be nice). Necro still has no decent party utility and will still be an outlier of the metagame. On top of that the greatsword skills look so sluggish that to be viable in pvp as a reaper would require almost 100% shroud uptime (chill doesn’t mean jack with the amount of condi cleanse available).

I’m still holding out hope for the mentioned blood magic trait line rework, but don’t be blinded by aesthetics, people. Look at the numbers and what the specialisations actually bring to the table

note, this is a repost of a thread that got locked by arguing in the main HoT forum. I figure conversation will be far more constructive in the necro subsection, so yeah

Reaper is ripe with cool from aesthetics, mechanics, trait disposition, chill effects and sunglasses from head to toe. Period.

if it can be criticized is because the necro is criticizable by baseline, but that deserves a side discussion ( actually there is one ongoing for two and more years i guess).

Robert Gee was pretty correct in saying it would be better to solve the main issues on the core specs and not bandaid it on the elite spec. That said the elite spec definitely does a good job of improving necro. It provides much better AOE, debuff conditions and sustain possibilities.

If we had a much more viable core class then the elite spec would be looked at as a huge positive regardless. Its just difficult to be completely satisfied when our core issues from the base class are still left unresolved. The elite spec is definitely a big positive. Just not necessarily enough on its own. Core spec stuff will clinch it in the end.

I’m not blinded, I see the issues before me. But I also don’t know what changes they’re making to their core traits and skills. This is something they’ve either mentioned in passing (such as signets) or directly stated but didn’t show us anything just yet(blood magic trait changes). I’m looking forward to see how that effects us. This is the reason I haven’t posted anything lately of relevance to balance. Because I have no idea where they’re going. I’d like to speculate on what might change, but we don’t know.

I’m looking at shroud knight abilities and cant stop salivating!.! :p

A leap, pulsing stability… add to that the relentless trait for 66% cc reduction..! Sure we trade out a lot but that kind of added defense is what the necro was missing in my books.

When is this being released again?

rapthorne.7345:

To me, Reaper looks bloody fantastic.

But that’s all it does. It looks cool. But when you look at the numbers, and what the skills actually do, it does nothing for the necromancer in general (a class that’s been left in the dust for a long time in terms of what it needs to be on par with the other classes). All of the core issues with the class are still glaringly present.

Chronomancer got a skill to make them key to party content, as well as a 25% speed boost in their kit (something requested for a long, long time), dragonhunter (crappy name aside) gets powerful long ranged attacks, something they were sorely lacking.
Reaper? All reaper gets is what we’ve always had. damage (though admittedly a decent cleave weapon at last will be nice). Necro still has no decent party utility and will still be an outlier of the metagame. On top of that the greatsword skills look so sluggish that to be viable in pvp as a reaper would require almost 100% shroud uptime (chill doesn’t mean jack with the amount of condi cleanse available).

I’m still holding out hope for the mentioned blood magic trait line rework, but don’t be blinded by aesthetics, people. Look at the numbers and what the specialisations actually bring to the table

note, this is a repost of a thread that got locked by arguing in the main HoT forum. I figure conversation will be far more constructive in the necro subsection, so yeah

I think you’re talking without actually looking at the options the Reaper will open up. Ignoring the Greatsword, the Reaper Shroud alone can get crazy powerful when specced right. 13 builds and counting for this class and they all include the Reaper line.

The metagame is important to who? For those of us that enjoy playing a game and not punching the clock, the class is pure fun. It can be specced for straight power, massive bleeds, chills, or a mobile zoo. If you’re bringing math into the subject, then that’s where you lose me. It’s a game, and everyone that plays should always remember games were made for only one reason…FUN.

The Necro gets compared to the other meta builds when it should only be compared to ‘other’ Necro builds. You can’t compare LeBron James to Kareem Abdul-Jabaar to because they both played basketball. In my guild I play PVP daily and do dungeon runs with the Necro when needed.

If you need a build to clean a dungeon in six minutes, I think the point of the game, and any game for that matter is missed.

Let’s enjoy ourselves.

The numbers are subject to change. The Siphon through DS/RS is a buff we’ve been asking since forever. Vulnerability and chill can make us more viable in pve but we’ll have to see in the beta. Shout effects/cast time/cooldowns are the biggest issue but I dont need shouts to roll a reaper with wells + BiP or Signet.

spoj.9672:

Robert Gee was pretty correct in saying it would be better to solve the main issues on the core specs and not bandaid it on the elite spec. That said the elite spec definitely does a good job of improving necro. It provides much better AOE, debuff conditions and sustain possibilities.

If we had a much more viable core class then the elite spec would be looked at as a huge positive regardless. Its just difficult to be completely satisfied when our core issues from the base class are still left unresolved. The elite spec is definitely a big positive. Just not necessarily enough on its own. Core spec stuff will clinch it in the end.

I was going to write a post in response to the OP, but Spoj already said it well enough so I’ll just quote him instead.

I need to see the potential life siphon changes in practice before I can get an honest opinion of how things will work in the end. I’m honestly not expecting them to work out as well as others seem to think they will though. Having played a warrior and a necro in GvGs and outnumbered battles while also attempting to roam with it in tier 1, 2, and 3, I just don’t think the life siphon change is enough to compensate it for all the other tools melee classes get to remain standing in WvW.

PvP is entirely different. I could see things working better in an environment where you’re rarely outnumbered and if you are, rarely by more than 1 or 2.

For the most part, agreement with Spoj.
The only two very major things I feel they did not deliver with the Reaper are:

1. No new conditions. I guess Chill dealing damage as an option is okay, but I feel left behind with no new cool stuff as condition based profession.

2. Still no alternative way to spend Life Force. That’s huge for me, very huge.

Reaper functions as a fun idea and different gameplay.

I think, however, that Arena Net is inconsistent when it comes to specializations a little bit.

While both Guardian and Necromancer have to give up on some profession mechanics, because they’re changed (as it should be), Chronomancer is just an upgrade. Yes, you have one traitline less to choose, but you don’t have to give up on any profession mechanic, plain upgrade. I understand it, but still feels a little bit unfair. Personally, I’d like to keep my old shroud and get Reaper shroud as such upgrade, too.

So, what part of the 50 different times they said “numbers are still being worked on” lead you to believe that the numbers right now mean anything except to give us a talking point on what we feel is appropriate? We’re mostly ignoring them because they aren’t final, just in between the time that they took the pictures of the tooltips and did the stream the skills were changed pretty significantly already.

spoj.9672:

Robert Gee was pretty correct in saying it would be better to solve the main issues on the core specs and not bandaid it on the elite spec. That said the elite spec definitely does a good job of improving necro. It provides much better AOE, debuff conditions and sustain possibilities.

If we had a much more viable core class then the elite spec would be looked at as a huge positive regardless. Its just difficult to be completely satisfied when our core issues from the base class are still left unresolved. The elite spec is definitely a big positive. Just not necessarily enough on its own. Core spec stuff will clinch it in the end.

Ackknowledgement is the first step to make sth. better…or something like that. After seeing that they are apparently really working on improving blood magic and giving the Necro some -unique- group utility through it, I have a slight sliver of hope that the trait changes we saw in that massive video were not neearly final…and slight hope for adjusting/fixing the base skills exists, too.

I hope they change things and shake it up. Break down the necro wall and use the good bricks to make s bigger better note functional one.

We have a lot of good stuff and some interesting concepts but some of the existing things don’t fit into the game as it is so I hope everything is looked at. Excited for full news on these changes.

I do feel like this is the case OP. It reminds me of just how we have all been attracted to necro since the start due to its cool “DS” mechanic only to be mediocre in pvp compared to other classes. I do not engaage in pve as much, but I will say that the Reaper will probably deliver there due to its cleaving damage and such.

However, in pvp… I dont quite see where we will improve. We lacked mobility and ways to handle being focused fired all the time. Instead, they made us melee with chill. And while at it, they capitalized on the point that we are supposed to be slow and hard hitting which hints to me that we will forever be known for long cast on long cooldowns.

Meanwhile, ive been trying to find a reason to continue playing my necro in pvp as im getting wrecked easily by other classes that take less skill. And each time I try to compare what the reaper would offer in my current situation in order handle our current issues and I cant find anything.

Not 100% so not that bad I was about to lose it in a bad way when I saw new animation for dhuumfire,they used horror movies to create reaper and their description of the class kept reminding of PvE bosses more than usual.

GS has 0.25s longer cast time really ? if u cant hit a target then re-roll. For WvW Reaper will be amazing, for sPvP it will be alot stronger then current (what maybe 2ppl in top Tourney play Nec current). In PvE well iam gonna say change very little for grp support(dont care, never do PvE)

ppl think we get interupted alot, or CC’s to pieces as a slow GS wielder/Melee brawler, yea well we will have 8s Stab(pulsating) on 14s rotation with Speed of Shadows, if u cant grasp what that will do for our necro iam sry I cant help u.

Ravezaar.4951:

GS has 0.25s longer cast time really ? if u cant hit a target then re-roll. For WvW Reaper will be amazing, for sPvP it will be alot stronger then current (what maybe 2ppl in top Tourney play Nec current). In PvE well iam gonna say change very little for grp support(dont care, never do PvE)

ppl think we get interupted alot, or CC’s to pieces as a slow GS wielder/Melee brawler, yea well we will have 8s Stab(pulsating) on 14s rotation with Speed of Shadows, if u cant grasp what that will do for our necro iam sry I cant help u.

Unless they have drastically increased the durability of DS, what you get in ds won’t mean much. Especially when you consider that to utilise reaper you need to get up close and personal and make yourself vulnerable to even easier wear on ds uptime from attacks

DresdenAllblack.1249:

The metagame is important to who?

Everyone who cares about being good.

How does your class being good at top level play hurt you as a casual player? It means you will find more groups, and when forced to pub, the pubbies who care won’t treat you like dumpster trash. If you don’t care about pubbing around, then nothing changes except some of your stuff is better. Zilch. Nada.

You want to ride the hype train, just turn off all the serious balance discussion and feedback threads and have fun with your circle of friends ingame.

That aside…my greatest concern here is the lack of communication. We’ve been speaking to the dev team entirely through a third party. Our last two red posts were a very minor info verification and a “yes, we nerfed the axe animation” post. Why isn’t the Necro playerbase getting cool ideas spitballed at them by the devs like the Guardian subforum is if they’re getting such a much-needed and vital rework to our core traits?

The Guardian forum is also littered with posts complaining that Dragonhunter is trash and traps suck and that no one will use it over Main DPS spec and this is not what Guardians really needed?

just like the Necro forums ...

The kitten and whining that you didn’t get what you wanted for Christmas
is rampant on every forum and will be for every Reveal yet to come.....

That is not to say that discussion on balance is not welcome...but a thread with the title Reaper Hype? is obviously self important and has a transparent agenda

If you want to engage in real discussion with the developers about balance
then probably less hyperbole and whining is advised... and more specifics! what is unbalanced, what is the evidence to support it?

If you cant do that then discussion Is not what you want...what you want is to moan loudly so everyone can see you...congrats.

rapthorne.7345:

Ravezaar.4951:

GS has 0.25s longer cast time really ? if u cant hit a target then re-roll. For WvW Reaper will be amazing, for sPvP it will be alot stronger then current (what maybe 2ppl in top Tourney play Nec current). In PvE well iam gonna say change very little for grp support(dont care, never do PvE)

ppl think we get interupted alot, or CC’s to pieces as a slow GS wielder/Melee brawler, yea well we will have 8s Stab(pulsating) on 14s rotation with Speed of Shadows, if u cant grasp what that will do for our necro iam sry I cant help u.

Unless they have drastically increased the durability of DS, what you get in ds won’t mean much. Especially when you consider that to utilise reaper you need to get up close and personal and make yourself vulnerable to even easier wear on ds uptime from attacks

The fact that our Life Force gain has moved from Life Transfer to our AA in Reaper Shroud meen alot, the “durability” as u call it of RS is far greater then our current DS. I see LB Ranger being a pain if we cant get him, tho the ranger is a pain as it is now. Whatever comes to close to the Reaper, the Reaper can del with, sry to say but…

1. enemies wont get the chill off (no matter how many cleanses) 2. the amount of CC/pulls we now have avaible will keep most of them there. 3. look at 1 again

so much potential in Reaper, will it be amazing in 1v1 ? no it wont, but I can see it dominate small-scale and big-scale fights. Look over traits and skills again and maybe u see what I do.

If you think reaper isn’t going to be powerful, you’re not seeing the big picture

They’ll never fix everything. MMO’s are about constant evolution, thats how they keep you playing and trying new things. To think they can balance everything is nonsense. They are closer in this game than most others however, enough that any complaints I have are minor. They could fix shroud with a block I think but whatever, its somewhat balanced by our easy access to it and great elites.

On the other hand the Reaper fits my playstyle very well, so I for one am very much looking forward to it. Ive barely looked at the aesthetic!

Wish A-net would re-consider and keep the GS swing times on par with Guardian at least… this is going to be a problem, esp. with blind-spam/interrupt Thieves and Mesmers.

Rubi did surprisingly well not interrupting the dev when he talked about the spec. And the reveal was much better than the chronomancer.
So yay to her.
I think the application of a perma chill is going to give this class some great roaming play in WvW.
The new DS and having an on demand blast finisher is going to be great for necro also.
The shouts could use some work, both mechanically and visually ( as well as better audio).
It’s going to be a dps spec, but I see it more as a spec to put them on par with other roaming spec’s in WvW, which is what (imo) the necro lacked.
From a wvw perspective

Tobias.8632:

If you think reaper isn’t going to be powerful, you’re not seeing the big picture

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvjLJIa_KmA

Not wanting to look at the main issue is fine and all but, it won’t do any good.
The point ain’t that the reaper won’t be powerfull. Reaper will be powerful with what you know (with a lot of counterplay to lock him down but whatever).

The point is that a car will not be good if you only care about one of it’s 4 wheel. The Reaper is only 1 wheel of the necromancer and sadely from the look of it the reaper become a mandatory wheel. To put it simply the reaper outclass so much the necromancer that it end up that there is no place anymore for a competitive necromancer.

How would you feel after playing the reaper for a bit of month (satisfied by the change and absolutely not wanting to look backward at the Necromancer class) and they announced a new specialization that this time add a F2 skill. Then you end up back on DS being your only damage mitigation source, with it’s cluncky skills and all. You end up forced to use the sloooow Life blast, the unreliable dark path. You end up with the same trait that make you unwanted almost everywhere because these trait are selfish traits that don’t make the necromancer shine anywhere.
So what? Will the dev end up forced to make another übertraitline to carry each and every elites specializations? Or is it best to plea for intelligent change on the core traitline to make the classic necromancer at the same level of it’s elites specializations?

I really think the title of this thread is good because, yes, most people are blind. The Reaper kill the necromancer because it’s way better than the classic necromancer. People only want to see and focus to what happen to build with the reaper traitline, while the core specialization is rooten to it’s core.

So yeah, they said that they were working on the blood traitline and maybe they will bring life to this traitline that’s been sick from day one. Maybe some long awaited possibilities will sprout from these change but until we see these changes and confirmed an healthy build diversity in the core line, reaper will just be and still be some shiny thing that blind us.

I actually agree with you on this. It does look amazing but the final product will really be what matters.

Not only have we seen nerfs after nerfs after nerfs since gw2 came out which paints an ugly picture for whats to come after the Reapers arrival, a dev has actually said they are “afraid of necro’s being too strong”. Which is kinda.. weird to me. I mean do they say this about all the classes? Or just the necro? IDK to be fair. But just look at this:

JonPeters.5630:

Keep in mind that some professions are harder to master than others. I believe Necro is the hardest, opinions may vary, but just keep this in mind. No we arent ignoring Necro, but once people start mastering DS, I’m afraid of how strong Necro will be. Give it some time for the average player to learn these things. For example early on in LOL master yi was dominant until people learned how to counter him.

This is concerning.

DS too strong? He’s Lead Game Designer. This scared the hell out of me when I read it. For me, it actually kinda knocked that final nail into the coffin. (pun intended) There is an actual agenda behind keeping necro’s in check.

And It made me think when I read it along with a few other necros “Has anyone mastered DS?” XD This is to say I haven’t seen any necromancer completely dominate with just DS in spvp. Especially not in any overpowered degree. Does this mean nobody’s mastered it? Is it like this boogeyman that exists only in our thoughts? Who knows.

This has really shaped my view of the necromancer overall. I’ll most likely still be moving on to the Revanant when the time comes.

If I’m not mistaken, that post from John Peters that people are digging up was back in the firsst year of the game’s lifespan. Tough to tell, since the year isn’t listed on the timestamp, but I distinctly remember that post being made very early on.

Like, back when the “Hundred Blades is OP!” craze was everywhere in PvP early.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If I’m not mistaken, that post from John Peters that people are digging up was back in the firsst year of the game’s lifespan. Tough to tell, since the year isn’t listed on the timestamp, but I distinctly remember that post being made very early on.

Like, back when the “Hundred Blades is OP!” craze was everywhere in PvP early.

Nah it absolutely was that long ago. I kind wish I’d seen that post the time it was made. When looking at all the changes they’ve made its like its all coming together; the reasoning behind it all. To me, it kinda points to that quote.

Still, I’ve been playing this game for about 2 years :P (like a month or so shy of release) and it clearly has not derailed itself from the logic presented in the quote. Ever since I’ve played this game I have not found that OP DS guy who’s mastered it and is just unstoppable. That boogeyman is still out there…

Does this mean less lockdown mesmers? If so.. yay!

Dirame.8521:

13 builds and counting for this class and they all include the Reaper line.

^ This right here is the glaringly main problem. It is a specilization, not a core mechanic, yet it has already made the very core of an entire class obsolete. THIS is what the real issue is. Not how viable reaper will be. Fix the core, and you fix the class as a whole. Core repair should have been done long before reaper was ever announced

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Dirame.8521:

13 builds and counting for this class and they all include the Reaper line.

^ This right here is the glaringly main problem. It is a specilization, not a core mechanic, yet it has already made the very core of an entire class obsolete.

Wow, just wow, over-extrapolation much? Just because I have 13 builds for the Reaper line doesn’t mean that the rest of the profession is obsolete jeez.

I could show you a few new buildzz from the traditional Necro that you haven’t seen before but the bulk of the traditional Necro builds are builds you have seen, just remodeled to fit the new era.
Fact is, Reaper Shroud is melee, and Deathshroud is ranged. Some people will prefer one to the other in certain builds.

There’s a build for applying a lot of condis in a short amount of time on the Reaper, that build was born from my Enter the Necro build. There’s an Auto-Reaper, that builds was born from my Condimancer, there’s a Cleave Reaper, that build was born from my backscratcher Necro and on and on like that.

Reapers DO NOT make Trad.Necro obsolete in the slightest. Stop being overdramatic.

plz stop calling them “my build” like you were the first to ever come up with a certain Build. Going on Hype-train or not there is a few things that are Facts:

Repaer Shroud and the Reaper/GS is Melee so there is something new to adapt to.

Reaper Shroud is more Powerful then Deathshroud it has better Substain/Longivity due to the fact that LF-Gain now is on AA, however it lacks the Ranhe of its Cousin.

Death Charge is a far easier trigger then Dark Path in I would say any type of situation when it comes to both gap-close and escape.

Infusing terror is what mostly seperate the two Shrouds, Deathshroud has absolutely nothing to compete with this Skill, an 8sec Stability with Traits on a 14sec CD is “The skill” for Reapers and imho for Necros overall.

Reaper will be far more vunerable to anykind of Range dps and this will be our biggest hurdle, interupts iam not to worried about. Getting to the target is my biggest concern.

The Numbers are confirmed to not be final atm so its not quite fair to judge that atm

Necromancers have never had much in the way of party support despite being pretty decent healers if speced for it

If the reaper can tank as well as I hope it can then more power to it
if one reaper can tank so the rest of the party doesn’t have to be in melee range that is party support as far as I am concerned and blasting out AOE chills and keeping enemies stuck in one area to be bombarded with AOE

Chronomancer is indeed great for speeding up a party but the reaper is the complete opposite in that it slows down enemies not only in movement speed but skill recharge..
combine the two and you have a lethal party set up already..

I see a lot of potential in the Reaper

Things I wanted:

Cleave.
Check!

A mobility skill.
Check!

Stability.
Check!

Better combo fields and more finishers.
Well kind of check, spin finishers aren’t that amazing, usually.
At least they look really cool.

Something to help with single condis, as opposed to having to use Consume Conditions to remove a minute long Cripple.
Not quite check, but greatly mitigated by the 66% condi duration reduction offered by a trait.

Scythe.
Check!

Better minion AI.
Unknown. We’ll see.

Better Blood Magic line.
Work in progress, hopeful it’ll be ok but I have my doubts.

Something to mitigate damage spikes.
I don’t think we got this.

More reasons to run Hybrid.
Check, maybe, depending on if it’s worth it to run Hybrid when combining Dhuumfire+Terror+the new “Chill deals damage” trait.

So yeah overall I’m very happy with what’s coming our way.

I will say, though, that I don’t understand why they went with the shout thing.
Necro already has Wells to fill the AoE role, they just needed a weapon with good cleave and it seems that we’ll get that now.
On the bright side I can tell random people to suffer and that their souls belong to me.

Also, I think that “Rise!” could be really good with Death Nova.

LastDay.3524:

Something to mitigate damage spikes.
I don’t think we got this.

Assuming you’re not being pegged at range, cold Shoulder covers this nicely. 15% extra damage reduction is nothing to scoff at.

Harnel.6810:

LastDay.3524:

Something to mitigate damage spikes.
I don’t think we got this.

Assuming you’re not being pegged at range, cold Shoulder covers this nicely. 15% extra damage reduction is nothing to scoff at.

Not something to be proud of we are still facetanking, I am more interested in siphon finally working in DS and it’s improvements to benefit all builds,don’t forget there is somewhat of a creep going on, curses still lacks that power GM and Reaper’s Precision didn’t get burned to the stake,utilities are not usable in DS and now most specs will stay for a good time in it, we are still weak(er) with 0 LF etc

In PvP I see no reason for me not to kill necro(in general) early coming from a power and condi thief point of view(I play all classes but that’s my main). I’m waiting for their PvP presentation and hopefully they start with 0 LF or do a real team match, I remember that time they used SoV with Life Siphon to showcase great healing…just wtf.

Yeah, closing to melee is going to be the biggest hurdle for Reapers. Still, if you can put chill or cripple in your off-weapon set, you can make it so they can’t maintain a lot of range on you while you’re closing. Spectral Grasp would be an extremely useful skill for most reapers, as well. And hey, it inflicts Chill!

the trick here is probably going to be setting up in such a way that people either have to avoid you, or deal with the fact that you’re a powerhouse – the first means you don’t need to worry about them in the first place, while the second is putting them within range of your pulling abilities, allowing you to turn them into mush given a little time.

I, personally, am going to be using Traveler Runes so that I can manage movement speed well enough without using up a skill slot for Signet of the Locust. If that works, I’ll be golden, as it’ll mean I can catch up with the enemies I’ve chilled or crippled, which solves a whole host of issues Reapers bring to the table.

Ravezaar.4951:

plz stop calling them “my build” like you were the first to ever come up with a certain Build.

Lol I’m sorry to offend your sensibilities but it’s “my build” because I put my own spin on it. And even if someone made a similar build before I did, as long as I don’t know about it I can still call it “my version” of the build.