Guild Wars 2

So before I start just let me say I use Dhuumfire in 2 different builds, I really like the trait.
I do however see people complain about it, I also see people posting they would like more ways to add Torment with Necro.

There’s also seems to be complaints about our mobility. We are not a mobile class and I don’t believe we are ever going to have some of the escape abilities other classes do. Torment at least punishes opponents for following you as you try to escape if need be.

Another thing this would give us is a condition to stack on bosses in PvE. A trait that won’t be as easy stacked to 25, because not every class can put Torment on a target. Other classes won’t be pushing the condition off like the do bleeds.

It seems more flavorful for our class as well, I like the idea of adding Torment as opposed to burning someone.

I like Dhuumfire also it does offer the dps to kill much faster though you can kill slower if you like without it.

Torment replacing Dhumfire isn’t bad I don’t think it would change people complaining about it if it was Torment instead of burning. If it was replaced it would probably be more than 1 stack maybe 4-5 stacks and it would equal the same dps or close to what burning does anyway.

I don’t PvE with my Necro(use my mesmer for that) so I can’t really comment on that aspect. Just from a WvW/PvP perspective.

sulli.2497:

So before I start just let me say I use Dhuumfire in 2 different builds, I really like the trait.
I do however see people complain about it, I also see people posting they would like more ways to add Torment with Necro.

There’s also seems to be complaints about our mobility. We are not a mobile class and I don’t believe we are ever going to have some of the escape abilities other classes do. Torment at least punishes opponents for following you as you try to escape if need be.

Another thing this would give us is a condition to stack on bosses in PvE. A trait that won’t be as easy stacked to 25, because not every class can put Torment on a target. Other classes won’t be pushing the condition off like the do bleeds.

It seems more flavorful for our class as well, I like the idea of adding Torment as opposed to burning someone.

It has been suggested, resuggested, and suggested again. They could make it 3-4 stacks with a cooldown like it is now, make it on crit but with no cooldown and a shorter duration. They could re-tool it so it isn’t automatic, but requires some series of conditions or circumstances (perhaps 5 torment and chill on interrupt, INCLUDING FEAR).

I could go on, but there seems to be no will on the part of Anet to investigate this one.

Rennoko.5731:

sulli.2497:

So before I start just let me say I use Dhuumfire in 2 different builds, I really like the trait.
I do however see people complain about it, I also see people posting they would like more ways to add Torment with Necro.

There’s also seems to be complaints about our mobility. We are not a mobile class and I don’t believe we are ever going to have some of the escape abilities other classes do. Torment at least punishes opponents for following you as you try to escape if need be.

Another thing this would give us is a condition to stack on bosses in PvE. A trait that won’t be as easy stacked to 25, because not every class can put Torment on a target. Other classes won’t be pushing the condition off like the do bleeds.

It seems more flavorful for our class as well, I like the idea of adding Torment as opposed to burning someone.

It has been suggested, resuggested, and suggested again. They could make it 3-4 stacks with a cooldown like it is now, make it on crit but with no cooldown and a shorter duration. They could re-tool it so it isn’t automatic, but requires some series of conditions or circumstances (perhaps 5 torment and chill on interrupt, INCLUDING FEAR).

I could go on, but there seems to be no will on the part of Anet to investigate this one.

That’s too bad it seems like if would just fit the class better, and maybe not be a fix all but help in the PvE and mobility complaints people are having.

For me it’s not so much about flavor, although it would be nice to have a trait that fits necros better. It’s more about the style of play dhuumfire promotes. Ideally I’d like to see the condi necro deal moderate damage over time and relying on good sustainability and active CC to stay in the fight long enough for that damage to eventually break the opponent. Attrition, in other words. Instead what we have is a condiburst class with little sustain that relies on an automated proc to deal a substantial part of the damage. It dumbs down the class and ultimately just fails to be an interesting mechanic.

I also don’t like the degree of dependency dhuumfire creates. As a trait it’s simply too good to lose, which makes 30 points in spite almost mandatory. However, instead of dealing with the problem at the source, a.net seems to have compensated for the burst of dhuumfire by nerfing terror, which seems to suggest they’re fine with dhuumfire as is. But of course, nerfing other sources of condition damage only further reinforces the dependency on dhuumfire.

Then again, since dhuumfire did see a nerf in sPvP, it seems there is at least some recognition that the trait is problematic. It’s honestly a bit difficult to understand a.net’s intentions here. But regardless, imho the class would be better off without it.

Dhuumfire’s problem isn’t duration. It’s that it added guaranteed damage, another condition to cover bleeding, and it lets our auto attack scepter spam stack three conditions on its own.

Pressing 1 can actually put out enough pressure with Dhuumfire to push people off points because it stacks bleeds, the poison reduces healing, and burning deals pretty high damage. If you blow condition cleanses? Good luck surviving a full bleed burst into fear-lock with enough cleanses left over to pull of 6-7 conditions before you get down to the bleeding.

In that respect, Torment would do much better. It’d remove one cover condition and is more easily balanced.

I would like it removed, so people will stop calling for nerfs and also so that they can focus on fixing other areas of the class.

People need to realise that not everyone is a condispam necro.

Wish we could go back to pre-dhuumfire patch and start again.

Avigrus.2871:

I would like it removed, so people will stop calling for nerfs and also so that they can focus on fixing other areas of the class.

People need to realise that not everyone is a condispam necro.

Wish we could go back to pre-dhuumfire patch and start again.

Dhuumfire really has nothing to do many complaints about necro alot of it is more ignorance. Many people think all necro’s are condis because alot of necro attacks have some kind of condi modifier on it and deathshroud has condis regardless of the build.

People will always call for nerfs regardless.

oZii.2864:

Avigrus.2871:

I would like it removed, so people will stop calling for nerfs and also so that they can focus on fixing other areas of the class.

People need to realise that not everyone is a condispam necro.

Wish we could go back to pre-dhuumfire patch and start again.

Dhuumfire really has nothing to do many complaints about necro alot of it is more ignorance. Many people think all necro’s are condis because alot of necro attacks have some kind of condi modifier on it and deathshroud has condis regardless of the build.

People will always call for nerfs regardless.

the popularity of Neco’s will drop since all the bad necro’s will finally realize they are bad and reroll so less necro’s running around = less people complaining about them.

also instead of removing that trait. why not make necro’s choose....make terror (pre nurf) and dumbfire a grandmaster trait in curses.

oZii.2864:

Dhuumfire really has nothing to do many complaints about necro alot of it is more ignorance. Many people think all necro’s are condis because alot of necro attacks have some kind of condi modifier on it and deathshroud has condis regardless of the build.

People will always call for nerfs regardless.

Every legitimate complaint about Necros (and there are some) have to deal with Dumbfire in some way.

Bhawb.7408:

oZii.2864:

Dhuumfire really has nothing to do many complaints about necro alot of it is more ignorance. Many people think all necro’s are condis because alot of necro attacks have some kind of condi modifier on it and deathshroud has condis regardless of the build.

People will always call for nerfs regardless.

Every legitimate complaint about Necros (and there are some) have to deal with Dumbfire in some way.

That and devs position to necros being like a herpetologist trapped in a room with a poison snake, you can not feed it, it bites you, you can feed it, but if you feed it salad it will bite you, you can feed it dead meat, it will starve, you need to get the rodents for it to kill and nom on to get the anti-venom you need without it trying to bite anything (but it will still bite you when you manhandle it).

I disagree and feel that it being in Spite should be conducive to it being a power line as well as a condition duration line. Requiring condition damage on a 30pt Spite trait strikes me as wrong- both in regards to Dhuumfire and a potential Torment Trait.

Rather have a condition related trait, but something to do with Vulnerability or Chill, for example. IE Grenth’s Touch- “You deal damage when applying Vulnerability or Chill and the duration of these effects are increased by an additional 20%”

Necromancers still really need torment or burning, without it our only real DPS condition is bleeding, which just isn’t enough. Pre-burning patch, pure-condition necros just weren’t up to par, they really only ran with Sun Spirit (gives them burning), Engineers (to feed them burning via Epidemic, and also compliment the bleeding), or were just kicked out in favor of an Engi, who’s damage couldn’t just be shrugged away.

The Grandmaster trait being one condition option makes it so a full damage Necro is incapable of also having major defenses (only at most 20 traits left over, instead of 50), and that is good. We’re also very hybrid by nature, so power hardly hurts.

Bhawb.7408:

The Grandmaster trait being one condition option makes it so a full damage Necro is incapable of also having major defenses (only at most 20 traits left over, instead of 50), and that is good. We’re also very hybrid by nature, so power hardly hurts.

20 points left, huh where should we put it, oh yeah A-net butchered necro 1vx to make Sarmor op in 1v1 and Swalk worthless unless exploring, maybe a second Sarmor(crippled Ignore Pain) might give me a lot of free defensive options.

Would be a fair bit stronger than burning simply due to putting an extra cover condi on the target when someone else in your team has burning. Also more damage compression, once again, due to no conflict with burning from your teammates. Intensity stacking has a few implications, numbers may need tweaking accordingly.

This ship has sailed.

Andele.1306:

Bhawb.7408:

The Grandmaster trait being one condition option makes it so a full damage Necro is incapable of also having major defenses (only at most 20 traits left over, instead of 50), and that is good. We’re also very hybrid by nature, so power hardly hurts.

20 points left, huh where should we put it, oh yeah A-net butchered necro 1vx to make Sarmor op in 1v1 and Swalk worthless unless exploring, maybe a second Sarmor(crippled Ignore Pain) might give me a lot of free defensive options.

Indeed. I don’t know why some still think Dhuumfire comes with a drawback in defense, because it doesn’t.

Bhawb.7408:

Necromancers still really need torment or burning, without it our only real DPS condition is bleeding, which just isn’t enough. Pre-burning patch, pure-condition necros just weren’t up to par, they really only ran with Sun Spirit (gives them burning), Engineers (to feed them burning via Epidemic, and also compliment the bleeding), or were just kicked out in favor of an Engi, who’s damage couldn’t just be shrugged away.

No one asked for more damage before Dhuumfire.

Bleeding alone does more than enough damage. If anything we needed cover conditions to make cleansing harder.
Imo the introduction of other improvments that came at the same time as Dhuumfire would have been enough to increase damage and protect bleedstacks. Like Tainted Shackles, or the reduced cd of Signet of Spite.
The damage of Dhuumfire itself is total overkill, the shorter duration in sPvP somewhat helps to not make it as embarrassingly op as it is in WvW, where it gets about as much hate as perplexity runes.

Lopez.7369:

This ship has sailed.

I’m afraid that’s true, although nothing would make more sense than changing it to torment.

flow.6043:

No one asked for more damage before Dhuumfire.

Bleeding alone does more than enough damage. If anything we needed cover conditions to make cleansing harder.
Imo the introduction of other improvments that came at the same time as Dhuumfire would have been enough to increase damage and protect bleedstacks. Like Tainted Shackles, or the reduced cd of Signet of Spite.
The damage of Dhuumfire itself is total overkill, the shorter duration in sPvP somewhat helps to not make it as embarrassingly op as it is in WvW, where it gets about as much hate as perplexity runes.

+ 1 – I agree with Bhawb and Flow on this subject!

The addition of burn that came with the “dumb fire” trait was never really needed. When I saw the leaked patch notes I knew it would go terribly wrong in an over powered way. The reason I knew this was because I have been playing condition necromancer since beta till now and during this period I have tried a large variety of builds to see what would bring the most effective damage.

The most effective builds would and have always been builds with a lot of condition duration and the reason for this is that condition duration gives the necromancers main damage source (bleeding) some cover so that it does not get cleansed on top of making your fears last longer and do more damage. Now bleed duration will not suffice because every other condition that you apply will not last long enough and this means that when the enemies cleansing kicks in all of your damage will be gone and you will have to reapply the 10+ bleeds you had on your target.

As a condition necromancer I would still go 30 points into spite if they removed dhuumfire just because of the fact just stated.

I do not think that dhuumfire should be changed to torment. I would rather have a non-damaging condition instead like CHILL!

Making it chill instead of burning would shave some of the necromancers damage, but still give us some extra duration on a covering condition while adding another offensive perspective to the trait. Arena Net developers have mentioned over and over again that they want enemies of the necromancer to have a hard time getting away. More chill would make that idea even more realistic while also adding some more survivability progressing towards the attrition based play style which should be the necromancers strong suit.

There is way too high damage in this game currently and if Arena Net do not change the necromancers high application and damage of conditions no other profession will shine in this area unless they buff them to the necromancers level and none of us really want that! Imagine how that would be like NO, JUST NO!

Dont Touch our Terror-ticks again aNet. Terror bin there from start and Terror is what belongs to a Class that worships the Dark & Deadly. Dhumfire was introduced and is Burning, when has Fire ever bin a ability suited for a Necro ? That belongs to Ele,Guardian and Engi.

Remove Dhumfire and give us something to boost Terror or Torment abilitys instead.

Bhawb.7408:

Necromancers still really need torment or burning, without it our only real DPS condition is bleeding, which just isn’t enough.

Well, flow already beat me to it, but this actually isn’t entirely accurate. The reason why pre-dhuumfire condition damage seemed so unimpressive is because bleeding had problems dealing with the cleansing. The condi necro suffered from a lack of diversity in damage sources and/or lack of cover conditions to protect bleeding. We effectively put all our eggs in one basket, and had to start the ramp up process all over again every time a cleanse happened.

Now I can’t speak for sPvP, but in WvW dhuumfire is just overkill, no question. My necro often has no problems putting an opponent into an unrecoverable position just by autoattacking. The irony of course is that in response to the resulting condi meta, the cleansing abilities of several classes have now been improved. And it follows that the more effective cleansing becomes, the less effective the conditions that require a relatively long uptime will be (ie bleeding). Which, in turn, forces condition classes to increasingly rely on the more bursty short duration options to deal their damage.

The right move (pre-dhuumfire) would have been to diversify the condition damage output among several different conditions while keeping the overall output amount roughly identical. Diversification without amplification. Burning contributes next to nothing to the former, and almost entirely to the latter.

ManaCraft.5630:

Now I can’t speak for sPvP, but in WvW dhuumfire is just overkill, no question. My necro often has no problems putting an opponent into an unrecoverable position just by autoattacking.

Nyee… I don’t see Dhuumfire as a problem in WvW at all. When you are running in the big PvDoor Zergs, you will fight other Zergs. In those big battles your conditions will be cleansed sooner than you can apply them.
If you are roaming however, there is a different mechanic canceling out the OP-ness of Dhuumfire: We are slow like a snail crawling uphills. If the condi pressure gets too high you disengage and then attack again. The only reason why Dhuumfire is OP in sPvP is because sPvP is about controlling points of interest. If you disengage from a Necro in that situation, he wins by default. Lose if you do, die if you don’t.

ManaCraft.5630:

The right move (pre-dhuumfire) would have been to diversify the condition damage output among several different conditions while keeping the overall output amount roughly identical. Diversification without amplification. Burning contributes next to nothing to the former, and almost entirely to the latter.

Agree, sort of. We need a way of burying those bleeds in a blanket of other, non or low damaging conditions. Bleeds are our bread and butter after all. Condi engies kinda work that way. They dont stack any condition very high, but they sure have a wide variety of them. And they can apply them very quickly too. The only problem I see with that is Necros have this wonderfull skill called Epidemic. Stacking lots of different condis on a single target (without burn) sounds reasonable. But that ability with epidemic might be a bit much in teamfights.
Damage over time is a pain to balance aint it? ^^

Asche.5362:

Nyee… I don’t see Dhuumfire as a problem in WvW at all. When you are running in the big PvDoor Zergs, you will fight other Zergs. In those big battles your conditions will be cleansed sooner than you can apply them.
If you are roaming however, there is a different mechanic canceling out the OP-ness of Dhuumfire: We are slow like a snail crawling uphills. If the condi pressure gets too high you disengage and then attack again. The only reason why Dhuumfire is OP in sPvP is because sPvP is about controlling points of interest. If you disengage from a Necro in that situation, he wins by default. Lose if you do, die if you don’t.

Well, I agree that’s the basic mechanic that necromancers are meant to revolve around. Other classes decide if and when a fight occurs, whereas the necromancer – by virtue of being an attrition class (at least supposedly) – attempts to stall for time via sustainability while applying moderate pressure. The catch is that dhuumfire takes much of the latter part out of the equasion. There is no need to stall for time with dhuumfire – you’re applying so much damage over such a short period of time that in many cases the fight is over before it begins. The point is that being able to force your enemy to make the decision to attempt to disengage (against a condi necro it’s not a given fact that you’ll be able to) should be the product of skillful play over time – not an instant autoproc.

In other words, if what we want is an attrition class, we must in turn accept a tradeoff of dealing moderate damage over time (as opposed to instabursting people down) in order to give our opponents a fighting chance. If a battle against a necromancer is meant to effectively be a race against the clock, we must be willing to grant our opponents a window of opportunity.

Asche.5362:

The only problem I see with that is Necros have this wonderfull skill called Epidemic. Stacking lots of different condis on a single target (without burn) sounds reasonable. But that ability with epidemic might be a bit much in teamfights.
Damage over time is a pain to balance aint it? ^^

Anything is a pain to balance.

Anyway, with regard to epidemic, it is a skill that in many ways breaks the conventional rules of game design. It doesn’t exactly serve as a good example, nor can you hold back the overall design of an entire class to accommodate a single skill (assuming it becomes a big enough problem). I’ve called for changes to epidemic before, I’ll have no problem doing it again.

Asche.5362:

ManaCraft.5630:

Now I can’t speak for sPvP, but in WvW dhuumfire is just overkill, no question. My necro often has no problems putting an opponent into an unrecoverable position just by autoattacking.

Nyee… I don’t see Dhuumfire as a problem in WvW at all. When you are running in the big PvDoor Zergs, you will fight other Zergs. In those big battles your conditions will be cleansed sooner than you can apply them.

This is not an issue with Dhuumfire but conditions in general, which is why zerg-fighters tend to run power builds.

Asche.5362:

If you are roaming however, there is a different mechanic canceling out the OP-ness of Dhuumfire: We are slow like a snail crawling uphills. If the condi pressure gets too high you disengage and then attack again.

That’s not really an argument in favor Dhuumfire.
Also, escaping a necro is not at all as easy as you make it out to be, and the fact that players will escape you sometimes doesn’t make Dhuumfire any less overpowered.

Brando.1374:

the popularity of Neco’s will drop since all the bad necro’s will finally realize they are bad and reroll so less necro’s running around = less people complaining about them.

also instead of removing that trait. why not make necro’s choose….make terror (pre nurf) and dumbfire a grandmaster trait in curses.

I think the Honeymoon of people rolling necro’s because of dhuumfire is over. The FOTM rollers moved to Warriors. It is the most complained about class now I think.

ManaCraft.5630:

Ideally I’d like to see the condi necro deal moderate damage over time and relying on good sustainability and active CC to stay in the fight long enough for that damage to eventually break the opponent. Attrition, in other words.

And therein lines the problem with changing it, you’d have to change the whole class design. As right now, Necro needs condi burst to actually kill, because attrition is not up to snuff and cleansing is too strong anyway if you are dinking little damage numbers for like 30 seconds to kill anything.

They would also have to make the Torments max damage be greater than the Burning if they changed it, since Burning has great additional value as a cover condition and now we’d be losing one condition overall, since Torment is usually on an enemy already. And because they already nerfed Terror to make room for Dhuumfire.

Essentially I think unless Anet rethinks Necro design it will always have contradictory issues. You can’t make Necro a slow condi killer when they don’t have either better mobility, better buff access (stability, vigor), or massively better lifesteal, or even a method to lock conditions from being cleansed. As right now slow condi drain damage would be instant hard countered by any full cleanse build. You can argue it is now.

The reason they made conditions have some burst capability is because that’s the only way to make them viable in a fast-paced game like Guild Wars 2. Otherwise, why wouldn’t people just bring a power build if they want DPS or a bunker if they want something tanky?

Necromancers, much like engineers, are still uniquely tanky. But the trade-off for being tanky is a lack of mobility, not a lack of burst.

my bunker engi doesn’t lack mobility.

Probably. Engineer is less tanky than necromancer, so that would make sense.

Pendragon.8735:

And therein lines the problem with changing it, you’d have to change the whole class design.

That’s a bit of a stretch, don’t you think? Your point is well taken, but pretty much all of the tools required for an attrition playstyle are already present – it’s just that a.net is content to leave them in limbo, as is evident by the highly touted yet thoroughly disappointing “buff” the vampiric traits recently received. You’re right that if burst comes down survivability must go up, which is one of the reasons why I – like many others – was hoping for more substantial improvements in this area. Unfortunately it seems this will not be forthcoming.

It’s also probably true that, on average, a higher amount of (concentrated) condition damage is needed to secure kills in today’s WvW environment, especially with improved cleanses. When it comes to conditions, can slow and steady still win the race? And is a.net willing to enable such a playstyle, or are we stuck with dumb(fire)ed down condiburst play that requires minimal skill to execute? It’s tough to make such predictions. On the other hand, the consequences of doing nothing are almost always clear.

I disagree that burning is highly valued as a cover condition though (due to its short-lived nature), and I doubt it would be as much of a loss as you claim. But good stuff otherwise.

I don’t get why people make excuses for Dhuumfire. We don’t need it to do enough damage, there is no downside to having it, it’s rediculously overpowered and it’s a total no brain auto-proc.

And yes, our survivability is bad, that does in no way justify the existence of Dhuumfire.
Damage and survivability are completely seperate issues:
Dhuumfire should be removed regardless of how bad or good our mobility and tankyness is.
Our survivability in WvW is the worst of any class, in part due to our lack of mobility, but mostly because of our horribly bad healing and because lf regeneration doesn’t scale with an increasing number of attackers. That needs to change as well, not as a trade-off for reduced damage, but regardless.

Pendragon.8735:

They would also have to make the Torments max damage be greater than the Burning if they changed it, since Burning has great additional value as a cover condition and now we’d be losing one condition overall, since Torment is usually on an enemy already. And because they already nerfed Terror to make room for Dhuumfire.

The whole point of removing Dhuumfire is to remove a cover condition and reduce damage.
And it would have to balanced around the fact that your opponent is constantly moving, because no one stands still because he has torment on him. Since it does about ~25% damage of burning in a condi build, 2 (max 3) stacks of torment would be an appropriate amount (if it was otherwise the same trait..).

Btw Terror wasn’t nerfed because of Dhuumfire, but because our access to fear was buffed.

ManaCraft.5630:

Anyway, with regard to epidemic, it is a skill that in many ways breaks the conventional rules of game design. It doesn’t exactly serve as a good example, nor can you hold back the overall design of an entire class to accommodate a single skill (assuming it becomes a big enough problem). I’ve called for changes to epidemic before, I’ll have no problem doing it again.

My point is, we need those blanket conditions. But people should still be rewarded for intelligent play when facing a necro. So there should be a sweet spot when to use a condi cleanser to get rid of bleeds. With epidemic, it’s not going to be easy to balance, and it’s not going to be a quick fix. Epidemic will likely remain as it is.

flow.6043:

This is not an issue with Dhuumfire but conditions in general, which is why zerg-fighters tend to run power builds.

My point exactly.

flow.6043:

That’s not really an argument in favor Dhuumfire. Also, escaping a necro is not at all as easy as you make it out to be, and the fact that players will escape you sometimes doesn’t make Dhuumfire any less overpowered.

I hope you are aware that I am not defending Dhuumfire, hence I am not making arguments in favor of it. Also if you can’t break away from a necro, you likely missed your window of opportunity/waited too long. If your heal and your cleanses are on CD, your health is low and you have chill+cripple on you, you definitely should have disengaged sooner.

flow.6043:

Damage and survivability are completely seperate issues

Excuse me? Damage and survivability are two sides of the same coin. If you add to one, you need to substract at the other. Otherwise you end up with an unbalaced class, and God knows we have enough of those issues already :P

Asche.5362:

flow.6043:

Damage and survivability are completely seperate issues

Excuse me? Damage and survivability are two sides of the same coin. If you add to one, you need to substract at the other.

Maybe to the extent of taking soldier’s over berzerker gear (for example…)

With traits and class mechanics it’s more complicated, but following that black and white logic, one would assume that the necro’s survivability was nerfed at the expense of adding Dhuumfire. But that is not true at all, quite the contrary, we’ve seen some decent improvements in life force regeneration with the same patch. Additions and cd reductions of stunbreaks, followed up with a doubled lf pool…. just to mention a few things.

Don’t get me wrong, our survivability is still lacking, but the addition of Dhuumfire had nothing to do with it, much like the removal of this trait wouldn’t change the need for further increase of attrition capabilities.

So yes, maybe that statement was a little vague, but in regards to Dhuumfire: definitely not the same coin. If anything, you made a perfect discription of what happend with that patch:

Asche.5362:

If you add to one, you need to substract at the other. Otherwise you end up with an unbalaced class

Asche.5362:

flow.6043:

Damage and survivability are completely seperate issues

Excuse me? Damage and survivability are two sides of the same coin. If you add to one, you need to substract at the other. Otherwise you end up with an unbalaced class, and God knows we have enough of those issues already :P

Not really, you have at least 4 sides to each character, str, dex, cons and int or in the case of MMOs: Damage, Mobility, Effective HP and Cooldowns & Cast times.

flow.6043:

Btw Terror wasn’t nerfed because of Dhuumfire, but because our access to fear was buffed.

I think it was more than one factor, but doesn’t really matter, the end result is once they put dhuumfire in, they changed a lot of traits and skills around to hedge against its damage and actually ruined a lot of decent (not perfect, but decent) straight condi builds, that would now still be ruined if they changed or removed dhuumfire.

Obviously they made terror harder to get, they made larger Marks harder to get in a condi build (at the expense of a good survival skill like Reaper’s proection). The default bigger ones are nice but its definitely still a noticeable difference. They moved Soul Marks so you couldn’t get it plus Master of Terror unless going 30 points, etc.

Those old builds are largely dead without replacements now and you don’t solve the variety problem with condi simply by making everyone now have 30 in spite for Torment instead of Burning.

I wouldn’t mind losing Dhuumfire at all, but not if they aren’t going to address long standing class flaws or issues, nor put us back at least with the alternative choices we had in the past.

People are also overlooking a subtle value of burst that would be critically lost if we went to a slow kill style, even if we had the attrition to back it up – enemies could run away whenever they want. Torment’s lockdown nature is too weak to be a replacement for that (unless its stacking over burning damage – even then still easier to clear).

Right now thieves, warriors, ele’s, etc, can try to jump you on a condi build, and if you counter their own opening burst, you can have enough damage not only going, but in reserve, that when they see they screwed up, they can’t simply waltz out of a fight laughing at the poor Necro trying to plink them down with primarily just bleeds. Many still do get away pretty easily if they are smart, but your burst at least gives a chance that you aren’t simply a practice dummy that enemies can entirely dictate and freely reengage combats around.

This is just another area where Anet has failed in their stated goal of Necro Philosohpy. The idea that we are a lockdown combatant to engage. The only reason we might be hard to escape right now is an enemy gets over their head in being condi overloaded. If their condi acquisition is slow and very readable, it will make escape timing silly easy.

Like I said, their lines in the sand about what Necro should and should not get, make their own class philosophy untenable. And that is how we’ve reached this unsatisfactory place to begin with.

Pendragon.8735:

the end result is once they put dhuumfire in, they changed a lot of traits and skills around to hedge against its damage and actually ruined a lot of decent (not perfect, but decent) straight condi builds, that would now still be ruined if they changed or removed dhuumfire.

Precisely this. The changes implemented since dhuumfire was created have actually made us more dependent on it rather than less. It goes without saying that nerfs to other damage sources and strengthened cleansing will, at the end of the day, only give condition necromancers more incentive to invest 30 points in spite, purely because it becomes more of a necessity for the build to function.

Enabling a slower playstyle will require more than just getting rid of dhuumfire. But it’s a good place to begin, assuming we want more interesting gameplay.

Pendragon.8735:

People are also overlooking a subtle value of burst that would be critically lost if we went to a slow kill style, even if we had the attrition to back it up – enemies could run away whenever they want. Torment’s lockdown nature is too weak to be a replacement for that

Yes, well, at the risk of tooting my own horn, I’ll just quote myself from four months ago:

ManaCraft.5630:

Especially our snares are in a bad state – scepter2, focus5, and DS2 all feel much too slow and clunky. An attrition class, if we ever become one, needs the ability to keep the enemy in combat for long enough time to have a realistic shot at taking them down.

…and five months ago:

ManaCraft.5630:

Here’s another thing about the whole “attrition” concept that I feel is missing today. Our ability to keep an opponent in combat with us seems lackluster to me. I’m fine with the necro not getting to dictate whether or not battle occurs in the first place – others get to pounce on you, not the other way around – but once it does, we should be able to force them to commit. I realize this problem probably solves itself in sPvP/tPvP, since if an opponent leaves they also concede the point. But as it stands, in WvW most other classes can just up and leave if they sense the battle is not going their way.

In order to qualify as an attrition-based class, it seems to me we should have at least a realistic chance of 1) holding our enemies in combat and 2) outlasting them.

So yeah. Snares are a key component of an attrition class. It’s precisely the reason why other classes must consider the pros and cons of engaging a necromancer instead of merely engaging as a matter of course – because there is an element of risk to them. Lockdown, if it’s good enough, is where that risk comes from. And it’s an element that, unfortunately, has been neglected a bit by a.net. The torment mechanic is actually quite good, but it cannot lift the burden on its own. At a minimum, some quality of life improvements are needed here in order to ensure that necromancers are able to reliably land their snares, otherwise the whole concept falls to the floor.

Of course the same thing can be accomplished by slapping enough burst onto the class that enemies lose the opportunity to disengage altogether and landing snares becomes a non-factor. This, however, is precisely what leads to the half-braindead style of play we’re currently witnessing. Just unload everything you have, and you’re bound to get a crit in there somewhere. It lowers the skill ceiling of the class considerably and helps reduce combat to an exercise in button mashing. With terror you at least have an interesting mechanic in that fear also doubles as a form of CC that grants us extra survivability (especially against melee) and therefore it actually matters when you unload it, but dhuumfire is just stupid damage for the sake of stupid damage. There’s nothing interesting about it whatsoever.

Slower damage, on the other hand, while more predictable, also leads to more interesting play (and counterplay). Knowing the abilities of your opponent, saving your attacks/spells/utilities for the right moment, understanding when to do what. These are factors that any decent game should seek to reward, not discourage. The fact that burst damage can take an enemy down fast enough to prevent escape does not speak to the value of burst, but rather to the value of unpredictability. And that doesn’t necessarily have to come from a frustratingly effortless autoproc.

In short, I couldn’t agree more.

Replace Dhuumfire with Chill. Call it Creeping Death or Foreboding Chill or something thematic like that.

Do a rebalance pass on the cool downs of Necro weapon skills and utilities to favor up-time more than burst.

More Chill would satisfy multiple needs of the role assigned to Necros in that it would enable a well played Necro to better dictate the flow of the battle once the enemy comes within engagement range; as well as keep them there if they stay too long.

It would allow a Necro to stay outside of the range of an assist train better if there was more on demand uptime available on Chill and Immobilize, which also increases their value in team composition without adding yet another burst class.