Guild Wars 2

Put on a report on that bug too.

If they had to reduce the numerical amount of LF we have in exchange for healing in DS so our traits and ally supports actually WORKED, so be it… I’d take that in a second, in fact, it might be pretty good for the game.

Additonally, Necros out of combat REALLY need to generate up to 15% LF out of combat and not degenerate outside of combat. Starting without, and if your primary initial builder misses it swings a fight a very unrealistic amount.

Urug.2543:

Personally, I agree that 100% would probably be fine, but I figured that people might need to be eased into it

I get that, but the game is almost 3 years old and by now I don’t want to ease anyone into something that should’ve happened a long time ago.
Also, with the time it takes anet to implement changes I’d rather get straight to full healing instead of waiting another 3 years for that to happen.

ronpierce.2760:

If they had to reduce the numerical amount of LF we have in exchange for healing in DS so our traits and ally supports actually WORKED, so be it… I’d take that in a second, in fact, it might be pretty good for the game.

Additonally, Necros out of combat REALLY need to generate up to 15% LF out of combat and not degenerate outside of combat. Starting without, and if your primary initial builder misses it swings a fight a very unrealistic amount.

I want them to remove the second HP mechanic completely , siphons fit the attrition theme , someone mentioned retaliation healing for it’s damage it fits, it’s not hard to add reflect and other active defenses . SA can give block for 5 sec with max 3 attacks give protection if shield is not broken, removal of ICD on SoV and more, the roots are here make it happen. The DS skills can remain as F1-5 skills that use LF as a resource. Removal/replacement of the second HP bar mechanic would be the best thing to happen to us, I hope it’s flaw make the report please don’t ignore it’s flaws.

Sagat.3285:

ronpierce.2760:

If they had to reduce the numerical amount of LF we have in exchange for healing in DS so our traits and ally supports actually WORKED, so be it… I’d take that in a second, in fact, it might be pretty good for the game.

Additonally, Necros out of combat REALLY need to generate up to 15% LF out of combat and not degenerate outside of combat. Starting without, and if your primary initial builder misses it swings a fight a very unrealistic amount.

I want them to remove the second HP mechanic completely , siphons fit the attrition theme , someone mentioned retaliation healing for it’s damage it fits, it’s not hard to add reflect and other active defenses . SA can give block for 5 sec with max 3 attacks give protection if shield is not broken, removal of ICD on SoV and more, the roots are here make it happen. The DS skills can remain as F1-5 skills that use LF as a resource. Removal/replacement of the second HP bar mechanic would be the best thing to happen to us, I hope it’s flaw make the report please don’t ignore it’s flaws.

I’ve weighed in on ideas for a HEAVY remake of DS, its just not likely. Best we can realistically do is ask for some obvious (you’d think its obvious) changes to how it works. Look at the Blood line and then look at what they’re doing for Engineer. There isn’t christmas in the underworld lol…

ronpierce.2760:

Sagat.3285:

ronpierce.2760:

If they had to reduce the numerical amount of LF we have in exchange for healing in DS so our traits and ally supports actually WORKED, so be it… I’d take that in a second, in fact, it might be pretty good for the game.

Additonally, Necros out of combat REALLY need to generate up to 15% LF out of combat and not degenerate outside of combat. Starting without, and if your primary initial builder misses it swings a fight a very unrealistic amount.

I want them to remove the second HP mechanic completely , siphons fit the attrition theme , someone mentioned retaliation healing for it’s damage it fits, it’s not hard to add reflect and other active defenses . SA can give block for 5 sec with max 3 attacks give protection if shield is not broken, removal of ICD on SoV and more, the roots are here make it happen. The DS skills can remain as F1-5 skills that use LF as a resource. Removal/replacement of the second HP bar mechanic would be the best thing to happen to us, I hope it’s flaw make the report please don’t ignore it’s flaws.

I’ve weighed in on ideas for a HEAVY remake of DS, its just not likely. Best we can realistically do is ask for some obvious (you’d think its obvious) changes to how it works. Look at the Blood line and then look at what they’re doing for Engineer. There isn’t christmas in the underworld lol…

It doesn’t matter. @Gates if something had make the report first it should be DS’s flaws, as a necro player you should know, it’s the perfect time if they missed the other previous ones. Don’t make this casual and little tweaks there and there like they showed more than enough time, please include this on the report it has to be first.

Sagat.3285:

ronpierce.2760:

If they had to reduce the numerical amount of LF we have in exchange for healing in DS so our traits and ally supports actually WORKED, so be it… I’d take that in a second, in fact, it might be pretty good for the game.

Additonally, Necros out of combat REALLY need to generate up to 15% LF out of combat and not degenerate outside of combat. Starting without, and if your primary initial builder misses it swings a fight a very unrealistic amount.

I want them to remove the second HP mechanic completely , siphons fit the attrition theme , someone mentioned retaliation healing for it’s damage it fits, it’s not hard to add reflect and other active defenses . SA can give block for 5 sec with max 3 attacks give protection if shield is not broken, removal of ICD on SoV and more, the roots are here make it happen. The DS skills can remain as F1-5 skills that use LF as a resource. Removal/replacement of the second HP bar mechanic would be the best thing to happen to us, I hope it’s flaw make the report please don’t ignore it’s flaws.

While it might be for the best in the long run if they overhauled the mechanic totally like that, I really don’t think it’s going to happen (unless it’s that newfangled specialization). Better to think about how they might add active, scaling defenses in the existing framework of LF and DS.

Urug.2543:

Sagat.3285:

ronpierce.2760:

If they had to reduce the numerical amount of LF we have in exchange for healing in DS so our traits and ally supports actually WORKED, so be it… I’d take that in a second, in fact, it might be pretty good for the game.

Additonally, Necros out of combat REALLY need to generate up to 15% LF out of combat and not degenerate outside of combat. Starting without, and if your primary initial builder misses it swings a fight a very unrealistic amount.

I want them to remove the second HP mechanic completely , siphons fit the attrition theme , someone mentioned retaliation healing for it’s damage it fits, it’s not hard to add reflect and other active defenses . SA can give block for 5 sec with max 3 attacks give protection if shield is not broken, removal of ICD on SoV and more, the roots are here make it happen. The DS skills can remain as F1-5 skills that use LF as a resource. Removal/replacement of the second HP bar mechanic would be the best thing to happen to us, I hope it’s flaw make the report please don’t ignore it’s flaws.

While it might be for the best in the long run if they overhauled the mechanic totally like that, I really don’t think it’s going to happen (unless it’s that newfangled specialization). Better to think about how they might add active, scaling defenses in the existing framework of LF and DS.

It’s going to end up better than base necro then…or what would they take away to keep it equal…mmm I don’t want a wet noodle with active defenses or something like that. This is the perfect time to increase the pressure on this, if not now it probably will be another 3 years which someone predicted they did the same for GW1 mesmer. @Gates at least put it on their table even if ignored it could start earlier.

Axe training is a hard choice to make with spinal shivers as a trait competition as it is now. What I see is either a nerf to axe training or I don’t understand it. Even if it’s not a nerf, spinal shivers is still a significant competitor to the slot. I would change the trait to make axe #2 a whirl finisher and #3 a blast finisher (also affecting the GM trait Spiteful Spirit). I think this would make axe training a real choice.

flow.6043:

Emapudapus.1307:

The problem now is that ds 1 and staff 1 doesnt benefit condi necros with dmging condis. With dhuumfire change you actualy get viable ds 1 condi autoattack.

But would you pick this version of Dhuumfire over Foot in the Grave or Deathly Perception?

What about burning in a radious from a target to 5 ppl on ds 1 and single burning on staff 1 (unless it pierces) and 20% extra burning duration. Assuming the condi duration in spite isnt limited to scepter (which would be silly) i would definately consider it, at least for pve. Also if you take piercing lifeblast trait than each target could triger the aoe burn making some interesting situations.

Emapudapus.1307:

flow.6043:

Emapudapus.1307:

The problem now is that ds 1 and staff 1 doesnt benefit condi necros with dmging condis. With dhuumfire change you actualy get viable ds 1 condi autoattack.

But would you pick this version of Dhuumfire over Foot in the Grave or Deathly Perception?

What about burning in a radious from a target to 5 ppl on ds 1 and single burning on staff 1 (unless it pierces) and 20% extra burning duration. Assuming the condi duration in spite isnt limited to scepter (which would be silly) i would definately consider it, at least for pve. Also if you take piercing lifeblast trait than each target could triger the aoe burn making some interesting situations.

That sounds too fun and like to reasonable of an area denial to ever be considered. Let’s not teasing ourselves.

I’ve read through most of the posts here and I agree with the general vibe that things need to change.

If there is one thing that should be emphasised in your report, I think it should be improving the gameplay.

Most complaints seem to be coming from people not being able to enjoy the gameplay, to use certain builds and playstyles. What struck me watching the stream is that the devs always treat necro with lower standards (there’s always been a visible bias among the devs towards certain classes – Jon is a warrior guy, same Hugh, Grouch and Colin play engie, you know where it’s going…).

What I mean by that is the difference in design effor put into necro traits and skills compared to other classes. Most classes get game-changing traits that add effects to your actions, synergise and ultimately make the profession better and more fun. Most of necros traits are just passive buffs that in no way affect the way the profession is palyed… just numbers and numbers.

What is the better gameplay – to place a healing skill that makes a water field and then use your trait-modified dodge to blast it, healing you and your allies or having passive life siphon causing small discrete heals that cannot even be balanced because of the scale effect, making it much more limited. Is it more fun to be passively transferring conditions from allies every 3 seconds like some condi-bot, with no choice of which ally you’re helping, or cleansing those conditions with timed and aimed skills.

I’ve been saying this since the release – until ArenaNet decides to do some quality job with regards to necros, we won’t see improvement strong enough to make necros viable.

Another thing… I don’t know what others think, but I believe it is our job as customers to hold the devs accountable for what they say. For instance, they said they would incorporate the new tech into existing skills and we’ve seen some of it in changes to traits here and there (resistance/slow/taunt) but not for the necro.
Also, they’ve said they want to include some heals and elites in utility lines, did that for warrior, ranger and thief for example, but conveniently skipped the topic during the necro presentation.

Necro needs to have it’s own gameplay and things it uniquely is capable of doing. If the thief stealths, engie blasts and the mesmer interrupts and so on, then give necro its own niche that is actually fun. If your design was to make condition manipulation that thing, then it failed and needs to be reimagined. If things don’t work, then come up with something better. And please, stop with the ‘2 health bars by Jon Peters’ nonsense – it stopped working.This really needs to reach the devs and I hope people will keep pushing.

PS. this is golden -> http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/33tm66/new_necro_changes_are_underwhelming_any/cqojf4b

this also speaks my mind ->
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/33tm66/new_necro_changes_are_underwhelming_any/cqod3kv

I was on a roll today, and made some suggestions (in a format easier to digest than huge blocks of text). Tell me- is this a Necromancer you would be excited to play? (And suggest new Grandmasters, there are 3 empty slots…)

Well there’s certainly no shortage of ideas here, although I’m not surprised by that.

No excuses now.

Staff traits need to be condensed somehow. Trait changes for most classes seemed to be really on the ball with giving condensed and precise traits for certain weapons, but necromancer is suffering from a triple spec divide for general staff usefulness: curses “terrormancer” would always employ staff for the extra fear, death magic greater marks is necessary for radius and marginal for unblockable, and soul reaping has gained soul marks, the half condensed trait. Granted, not all staff users need terror to be effective, but as a condition-heavy weapon it’s hard to justify using it without the curses spec.

Soul marks and greater marks can be condensed, or something made baseline. The need for death magic just for radius is particularly bad, especially for necromancers that do not run minions. I believe the original pairing of staff with death magic came from very old iterations where minions would not heal and required the regen from mark of blood for some kind of weak sustain, but minions have changed; staff traits have not. Traits that rely on staff should relocate to at least 2 specs, if not 1, for there to be any hope of build choice there.

Looks like you got the big ones so far, TGA. Would be happy to see most of those pass.

@Gates I know I’m spamming this but this is big to us, mention Death Shroud as flaw in there it is the main one you know it too.

Urug.2543:

I was on a roll today, and made some suggestions (in a format easier to digest than huge blocks of text). Tell me- is this a Necromancer you would be excited to play? (And suggest new Grandmasters, there are 3 empty slots…)

Yes and no.
Most of it seems to be an improvment over anet’s preview of course.
Just a few of the things that cought my eye in a negative way:

Terror in master tier is just as bad as in grandmaster. It would basically mean that you can’t have Path of Corruption or Banshee’s Wail with a condi build anymore.

Greater Marks is gone? Or did you mean to merge it with Soul Marks?

Bloodmagic: even if Vampiric is as poor as it is now, I wouldn’t change its functionality completely because the trait itself isn’t bad, it’s the fact that the values are low in addition to not working at all when in DS.
Also, your Coven gm minor seems redundant when you need to get the entire line anyway.

I’ll just leave this here: August 2011 Dark Path

Anyone else notice a pattern with every class that their original ideas were actually the best ones?

Note
Engineer is getting stability put back onto juggernaut. The last time this trait had stability was August 2012 . The difference now? Now you can have stability while wielding flamethrower and have swiftness with how engineer traits are being adjusted. The old juggernaut had you move slowly . We’ll ignore the fact that it’s 1 stack – stability is stability. (Changes like this happen when devs actually play the class. cough Grouch mains engi cough)

So… honestly? Give us back ground targeted dark path that AOE blinds The “fix” that you made to dark path all those years ago to make it a crappy homing claw needs to be scrapped. We aren’t the necromancer of beta tests that was deemed unkillable, overpowered and invincible.

August 2011 Dark Path please.

We are never going to agree on each others specific examples of trait changes and re-arrangement (but who cares since we are all just trying to fix the necromancer for the better), but there are a few universal changes to the necromancer I think we can all agree on – dark path being one of them.

Crazy stupid off the wall ideas.

Straight up overhaul the DS mechanic. It is clear A.Net has no idea how to balance the mechanic because of this ‘second health bar’ – justified in calling it that or not. It is a pretty clear sign that something is wrong with a class mechanic when you have to disable a lot of that classes functionality from working while its mechanic is active. That is just bad design. No other class in the game has an ENTIRE trait line become useless because of their main class mechanic.

Here is my dumb idea.

• Change DS to an F1/F2 choice (think Revenant).
• Move Lich Form and Plaque into those slots. (F1 = Lich, F2 = Plague).
• Remove ‘second life bar’. Damage will always go to your real health no matter what.
• Hitting F1 or F2 activates that form and consumes the entire life force pool to do so.
• The form is active for X seconds. Life force pool percentage plus Traits / spec could determine length.
• Change Lich Form and Plague so their effectiveness scales with amount of life force on time of activation. Some examples could be: stability seconds scales with life force percentage, plague pulses more conditions if activated at 100% life force vs 50% life force, plague form condition pulse radius is bigger at 100% life forcevs 50%, etc. You get the idea. Basically more death == bigger life force pool == better Lich or Plague.
• Move some of the old DS abilities to either Lich Form or Plague where it makes sense.
• Remove lackluster abilities of Plague and make them an automatic and innate part of the form, and replace with active abilities. For example Plague form could be our ‘mobility’ form. Give it a good escape and gap closer.
• Come up with new elites to replace Lich Form and Plague.

Zefrost.3425:

I’ll just leave this here: August 2011 Dark Path

Anyone else notice a pattern with every class that their original ideas were actually the best ones?

Note
Engineer is getting stability put back onto juggernaut. The last time this trait had stability was August 2012 . The difference now? Now you can have stability while wielding flamethrower and have swiftness with how engineer traits are being adjusted. The old juggernaut had you move slowly . We’ll ignore the fact that it’s 1 stack – stability is stability. (Changes like this happen when devs actually play the class. cough Grouch mains engi cough)

So… honestly? Give us back ground targeted dark path that AOE blinds The “fix” that you made to dark path all those years ago to make it a crappy homing claw needs to be scrapped. We aren’t the necromancer of beta tests that was deemed unkillable, overpowered and invincible.

August 2011 Dark Path please.

We are never going to agree on each others specific examples of trait changes and re-arrangement (but who cares since we are all just trying to fix the necromancer for the better), but there are a few universal changes to the necromancer I think we can all agree on – dark path being one of them.

Didnt they already confirm multiple times in the past that it is too much mobility for a profession that isnt supposed to have mobility (or active defense)?

Anubis.7058:

Zefrost.3425:

I’ll just leave this here: August 2011 Dark Path

Anyone else notice a pattern with every class that their original ideas were actually the best ones?

Note
Engineer is getting stability put back onto juggernaut. The last time this trait had stability was August 2012 . The difference now? Now you can have stability while wielding flamethrower and have swiftness with how engineer traits are being adjusted. The old juggernaut had you move slowly . We’ll ignore the fact that it’s 1 stack – stability is stability. (Changes like this happen when devs actually play the class. cough Grouch mains engi cough)

So… honestly? Give us back ground targeted dark path that AOE blinds The “fix” that you made to dark path all those years ago to make it a crappy homing claw needs to be scrapped. We aren’t the necromancer of beta tests that was deemed unkillable, overpowered and invincible.

August 2011 Dark Path please.

We are never going to agree on each others specific examples of trait changes and re-arrangement (but who cares since we are all just trying to fix the necromancer for the better), but there are a few universal changes to the necromancer I think we can all agree on – dark path being one of them.

Didnt they already confirm multiple times in the past that it is too much mobility for a profession that isnt supposed to have mobility (or active defense)?

How did that end up for us? Did they also mentioned how well it would perform vs other classes?

devs exist in a vaccuum. They only think in perfect situations, as in the necro hits all his rotations pefectly, the enemy does not dodge, use condi clears, and heals late. HAHHA then, the necro is so op.

Roe.3679:

- I think Path of Corruption and terror should be reversed, putting Terror and Lingering curses on the same GM level hurt a lot of PVE necromancers (although for pvp, for example, it didn’t change anything so I missed this).

This has been mentioned by a few players, and honestly, I can’t imagine this ever happening. Imagine if Doom, Fear (necro downstate) and Reaper’s Protection was a 4s fear and Fear of Death, Spectral Wall, Corrupt Boon and Well of Corruption were 2s fears with terror! That sounds just awful to play against. I’m not totally sure why everyone is underestimating the potency of the new scepter trait.

There is a Anet condition necro in WvW in an opposite zerg any hopes :\? I’m trying to kill him is it wrong??

If anything the scepter trait is just so good that Terror can’t hope to keep up as is, and could deserve buffs (like merging Master of Terror into it) to compete. I can’t imagine anyone taking a bit of damage here and there over the massive strength of the scepter trait. The main reason condi duration doesn’t usually matter in PvP is because you usually give up quite a bit for it, but in this case a single trait gets you everything.

Dead hehe. /15 characters

Bhawb.7408:

If anything the scepter trait is just so good that Terror can’t hope to keep up as is, and could deserve buffs (like merging Master of Terror into it) to compete. I can’t imagine anyone taking a bit of damage here and there over the massive strength of the scepter trait. The main reason condi duration doesn’t usually matter in PvP is because you usually give up quite a bit for it, but in this case a single trait gets you everything.

The cleansing!!! Like someone mentioned if all conditions are super weak due to this trait more reasons to pick Terror.

Edit: In PvP and maybe WvW, terror is not that build defining you would use fear anyways it doesn’t feel GM worthy and again I’m ready for a nerf on all of our conditions just for that trait#nerfbatcollection

I think linger curses is a bad trait in the sense that it’s way to strong in a very specific way.

I fear that it’s going to effect the balance of the class very heavily, because anet has to think for every single condition we can apply, how it will perform when you have double duration from a single trait.

That is not healthy for build diversity or class balance.

On a side note, how is Axe Training allowed to be so bad when Warriors have Forceful Greatsword which not only affects more abilities, has much higher effective CDR, has non-conditional 10% damage increase (on more damaging abilities), but also grants might on crit. It is objectively a better trait in every single way, and yet it exists at the same tier in the same tree for Warriors.

Sagat.3285:

@Gates I know I’m spamming this but this is big to us, mention Death Shroud as flaw in there it is the main one you know it too.

I read every single post. No need to double post the same thing

Alright, so I feel like I’ve gotten the vast majority of points in. I want to get this in for monday so they can start to action on it ASAP. Also I have a 100.1 fever and feel like a necro minion. I will still be reading every single post and I’ll be sending another report about the other classes sometime next week. I’ll be sure to include any new ideas that pop up.

If we poke you enough, will you explode into a noxious cloud? :p

One more thing you should add to the report is that this is the perfect time to have profession specialists. Not sure why they apparently dumped the idea.

Two small things I want to add.

Well of Blood
Turning it into an ice field would fit much better thematically as many of our abilities are already cold themed. Frost aura and additional chills would also synergize with Bitter Chill though the vuln application might be a bit overkill.
Though this won’t work without a few usable finishers so without that, it’s a moot point.
Water would also work and they are stronger but don’t fit as well thematically.
Still don’t know why there’s a light field on a necromancer.

Vampiric
I don’t know why it’s far less effective than completely passive health regeneration options that are in similar positions for other classes even when you take additional traits to support it. Referring to Adrenal Health and Backpack Regenerator here.

I hope Arenanet is paying you something for doing their job Gates

Alexander.9810:

I hope Arenanet is paying you something for doing their job Gates

Or they’re about to fire him. “What did we tell you about wasting your time and ours with this Necromancer non-sense? We told you already, we’re not making a kitten necromancer class!”

Haha. I mean Necro does counter the current Engineer pretty hard, so in theory you would think this is the time to stack Necros, but I think its obvious how that ends up. People like me will just go Hambow or Mace/Shield, Longbow and laugh our way to downed state Necro.

Funnily enough people are more afraid of Necro autoattacks than their actual mechanics, the most deadly of which is when they have been cut off from all their utilities…

I can understand, albeit from a distance, the frustrations of the Necro community. It’s not enough to just counter the FotM in a 1v1… Necro needs to not have a neon flashing sign around their class icon that says CARRY ME, CARRY ME anymore.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Roe.3679:

- I think Path of Corruption and terror should be reversed, putting Terror and Lingering curses on the same GM level hurt a lot of PVE necromancers (although for pvp, for example, it didn’t change anything so I missed this).

This has been mentioned by a few players, and honestly, I can’t imagine this ever happening. Imagine if Doom, Fear (necro downstate) and Reaper’s Protection was a 4s fear and Fear of Death, Spectral Wall, Corrupt Boon and Well of Corruption were 2s fears with terror! That sounds just awful to play against. I’m not totally sure why everyone is underestimating the potency of the new scepter trait.

So, essentially the necro condi class as a whole will take a nerf to damage in a big way. Having a huge condi duration in wvw or pvp won’t mean junk with all the clears available today and anet is taking terror, originally an adept trait, and moved it up to grandmaster to compete with a one size fits all trait lingering curse. Yeah lingering curse will important now especially with no way to account for condi duration unless they are sticking it on amulets. If you think this wont effect condi builds you are sorely mistaken and the condi necro or terrormancer will not exist anymore in Pvp. terror is integral to all condi builds and the only reason they changed lingering curse is because they have no freakin idea how to deal with the net loss in condi duration now that it’s not the spite tree. Oh what does it matter, they won’t change crap so these changes are here to stay.

My overall points are :
- Necro should have more interesting mechanics than just spamming Dagger 1 auto attack (power necro), scepter 1 stacking bleed (condition necro), minions auto attack (minion master)
- Necro should be able to bring more support to a party

Thank you for helping us The Gates Assassin!

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Roe.3679:

- I think Path of Corruption and terror should be reversed, putting Terror and Lingering curses on the same GM level hurt a lot of PVE necromancers (although for pvp, for example, it didn’t change anything so I missed this).

This has been mentioned by a few players, and honestly, I can’t imagine this ever happening. Imagine if Doom, Fear (necro downstate) and Reaper’s Protection was a 4s fear and Fear of Death, Spectral Wall, Corrupt Boon and Well of Corruption were 2s fears with terror! That sounds just awful to play against. I’m not totally sure why everyone is underestimating the potency of the new scepter trait.

Doom would be 3 sec max. The rest isn’t that much more than what you can currently get with Nightmare runes and Master of Terror, you can get +95% if you have 6 points in Spite in addition to that. And that includes fear skills and procs when you’re on your staff as well.

Also, if you combine all these skills (which you never would because that looks like a terrible build) you’d pretty much get something similar to a warrior’s hammer stun rotation, only with less damage and with more counter play since fear is a condition.

So to me it seems, if anything, the duration buff of Lingering Curse should be looked at instead of making people choose between Terror and any of the grandmaster or master traits which could actually make condi necros decent for a change.

PS: Thanks for doing all of this though, Gates. Get well

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Alright, so I feel like I’ve gotten the vast majority of points in. I want to get this in for monday so they can start to action on it ASAP. Also I have a 100.1 fever and feel like a necro minion. I will still be reading every single post and I’ll be sending another report about the other classes sometime next week. I’ll be sure to include any new ideas that pop up.

It is okay, I am traited for Death Nova

Get well soon bro, that is right, you are now a bro, bro

As a power necro who plays strictly WvW group/zerg gameplay, I’ll give my feedback with regards to WvW gameplay with power necros only. First, thank you for the subtle but nice boosts.

-Spite minors are an across the line boosts to power necros. They’re small but nice changes.
-Old spiteful talisman becoming baseline is awesome, since I already use axe/focus in large scale WvW combat, increased range on focus is a nice change.
-The merged Vital Persistence is also nice, it’ll help necros that utilize death shrouds often.
-Wells use ground targeting by default, frees up yet another trait I had to take being a power necro in WvW. Thank you.

Now, some power necros are disappointed because we’ll essentially be taking the same traits after the revamp. Here are what I currently take:

Reaper’s Might
Chill of Death
Close to Death
Vital Persistence
Unyielding Blast
Death Perception

These 6 traits taking up 2 trait lines are essentially the same aside from Vital Persistence, and most power necros in WvW will be taking these before and after the revamp. It’s kind of boring to be taking the same things, so it doesn’t feel like we’re getting as big of a boost as some other classes. Some classes are getting some totally new, cool, powerful skills. But to be fair, we get to pick a new grandmaster after the revamp. So no matter how people spin it, power necros are definitely going to get stronger.

My criticism/suggestions:

-Soul Marks, you’ve taken staff recharge reduction out of death magic (the trait I likely will take after revamp), and put it in Soul Reaping. Soul Reaping is too overloaded, it contains too many essentials to power necros in WvW. I would like Soul Marks merged with Greater Marks. There’s no reason they should be separated for a weapon enhancing trait. There’s also no reason why marks shouldn’t generate lifeforce by default anyway.

-Shrouded Removal, if you want to make necros more useful in groups (and this is one of the weaknesses to necros), make Shrouded Removal remove a condition on the necro and 5 allies. This will make necros more group friendly all around. That or if stuck as a solo, selfish trait, it should remove at least 2 conditions.

-One of the common complaints is the lack of a good Grandmaster choices for power necros outside of Spite and Soul Reaping. If you take Spiteful Spirit and swap it to another trait line (like death magic for an example), I would gladly take that as a grandmaster. Unholy Feast is useful in WvW, and it’s a trait that works directly with death shroud. But outside of that, there’s really no good power necro grandmaster choices since you overloaded spite & soul reaping.

-I keep waiting for Axe Training to get better so I would take it. You’ve not made it better, but nerfed it. Please rethink this one. You know what would make Axe Training sexy? Give it 15-20% axe damage boost, and make axe 1 cleave.

-I think Unyielding Blast should shorten the cast time of life blast. Life blast cast time is just too long. To easily dodged in PvP/WvW, and too easily affected by terrain.

A theme that has recurred in these posts is the notion that the design theory for necromancer is of a class with low mobility, limited evasion, selfish mechanics, etc. It does appear that most decisions made regarding the class operate from this design theory. Consistent, perhaps, but not necessarily ideal. I would ask: Why is this the design theory? Is it working? Is it the best for the game? It need not be immutable.

As an example: I play every class in PvP. 8 classes have peels; only 7 classes can disengage. Even if one believes that the Death Shroud represents a “second health bar,” it doesn’t change the fact that all the hp in the world won’t save you if the fight is lost. Everyone else can escape; a Necromancer dies right there. That may be in line with the design theory, but it doesn’t make for good gameplay.

I don’t PvE much, but I have a good idea where the Necromancer stands there. Why must they be selfish? Because they’re Necromancers and they do bad juju? Come on! It’s your game world; you don’t have to conform to anyone’s stereotypes. One of the PvE world’s biggest heroes — obnoxious, whiny, and pedantic, but heroic nonetheless — is a Necromancer named Trahearne. He’s too selfish to give boons to his allies?

I recognize that there is offensive support in the form of cc, but other classes can provide that as well as defensive support. I can take any class — even bursty classes like Thief and Mesmer — and find a build that heals, that clears conditions, that gives boons to party members. With Necromancer, I cannot. You have a trait line just begging for party-wide assistance and instead it gives minimal self-healing that conflicts with the class’ core mechanic.

I like Necromancer, and I don’t mind playing the unexpectedly tough little fellow in the robe that can take a few punches to the face. But it doesn’t need to be expressed in the extreme. The design theory can change a little without the whole thing being scrapped. Look at Engineer: They aren’t going back to the well entirely, but they’re willing to completely rework traits and a trait line to find something that maybe plays better. The same can be done for Necromancer.

As for specific ideas, how about this?

Necromancer has a handful of self-healing and siphons, none of which work when in Death Shroud, meaning traiting for one diminishes the other. How about a trait — maybe deep in Blood Magic — that says that any healing you would receive while in Death Shroud, from siphoning, regen, allies, water blasts, etc., gets distributed amongst near by party members instead? It’s an investment, it’s helpful, and it means you’re not working against yourself.

It’s not game-changing, and it doesn’t fix the problem that Necromancer play is already too reliant on passive effects and looks to be moving further in that direction come the expansion, but it’s a thought to suggest a direction.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Roe.3679:

- I think Path of Corruption and terror should be reversed, putting Terror and Lingering curses on the same GM level hurt a lot of PVE necromancers (although for pvp, for example, it didn’t change anything so I missed this).

This has been mentioned by a few players, and honestly, I can’t imagine this ever happening. Imagine if Doom, Fear (necro downstate) and Reaper’s Protection was a 4s fear and Fear of Death, Spectral Wall, Corrupt Boon and Well of Corruption were 2s fears with terror! That sounds just awful to play against. I’m not totally sure why everyone is underestimating the potency of the new scepter trait.

Well of corruption? Really?
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Necro-Boon-Removal-Priorities/4252200

Fear is last priority if you have any boon on your stability is spared. Stability for corrupt boon is second last. With the addition of resistance and maybe quickness the priority will be even lower (because I believe Anet is competent enough to understand and make sure that resistance is prioritized).

Gryph.8237:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Roe.3679:

- I think Path of Corruption and terror should be reversed, putting Terror and Lingering curses on the same GM level hurt a lot of PVE necromancers (although for pvp, for example, it didn’t change anything so I missed this).

This has been mentioned by a few players, and honestly, I can’t imagine this ever happening. Imagine if Doom, Fear (necro downstate) and Reaper’s Protection was a 4s fear and Fear of Death, Spectral Wall, Corrupt Boon and Well of Corruption were 2s fears with terror! That sounds just awful to play against. I’m not totally sure why everyone is underestimating the potency of the new scepter trait.

So, essentially the necro condi class as a whole will take a nerf to damage in a big way. Having a huge condi duration in wvw or pvp won’t mean junk with all the clears available today and anet is taking terror, originally an adept trait, and moved it up to grandmaster to compete with a one size fits all trait lingering curse. Yeah lingering curse will important now especially with no way to account for condi duration unless they are sticking it on amulets. If you think this wont effect condi builds you are sorely mistaken and the condi necro or terrormancer will not exist anymore in Pvp. terror is integral to all condi builds and the only reason they changed lingering curse is because they have no freakin idea how to deal with the net loss in condi duration now that it’s not the spite tree. Oh what does it matter, they won’t change crap so these changes are here to stay.

Almost nothing is changing for condi necromancer. You can still spec into Curses for both PoC and Terror. You can still spec into Soul Reaping for Foot in the Grave and Master of Terror. The current meta terrormancer is 0/6/2/0/6 or 0/6/4/0/4, so it doesn’t have the additional fear duration from the power line. Nightmare runes aren’t changing. Dhuumfire got a big hit, but I put that in my report already.

The real power of Lingering Curse is that it’s gonna make fears crazy, while also taking short duration conditions and making them last long enough to be potent.

@The Gates Assassin.9827
Still, it makes no sense that a conditionmancer has to choose between THE condition trait, and Terror.
Terror has always been part of being a conditionmancer, splitting them and forcing people to choose either one is not the way to go.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Roe.3679:

- I think Path of Corruption and terror should be reversed, putting Terror and Lingering curses on the same GM level hurt a lot of PVE necromancers (although for pvp, for example, it didn’t change anything so I missed this).

This has been mentioned by a few players, and honestly, I can’t imagine this ever happening. Imagine if Doom, Fear (necro downstate) and Reaper’s Protection was a 4s fear and Fear of Death, Spectral Wall, Corrupt Boon and Well of Corruption were 2s fears with terror! That sounds just awful to play against. I’m not totally sure why everyone is underestimating the potency of the new scepter trait.

That build has no stun breaks, and this set up also loses Path of Corruption which is one of the better upgrades we’ve seen in the last year. So that build would be on par with like, warrior rifle right now. A gimmick.

If necro downstate fear was 2 seconds, I think that’s fine. I would also be fine with Reaper’s protection being completely re-worked. One of the better suggestions I’ve seen is giving the necromancer life force when CC’d, which fits in with an earlier post that it gives pause on mindlessly focusing necromancers. Well of corruption would never work without a long immobilize to well bomb, which condi specs don’t have unless you’re really banking on Tainted Shackles landing with that condition duration.

What if you axed Master of Terror, and made the switch? Re-work Reapers Protection so it’s more meaningful to Necros, but less annoying to fight against? It is a passive proc and sometimes it just goes off on a ranger pet or something.

I also want to pause for a second and point out that terror chains do have counter play, and things like spectral wall or well of corruption are so easily avoided.

I don’t mean this in any negative way because I appreciate your effort, but this response is exactly why we can’t have nice things. “But, then necros could have this crazy unviable build and pull off something against a horrible player!” That’s essentially the game the Devs seem to have been playing for years, so don’t fall into that trap. Chaining all of our utilities for some glorious fear chain isn’t rescuing the class or fixing any problems. It wouldn’t happen, especially not against a player with a brain.

The people complaining about Fear chains in GW2 never played Aion. I remember continous Fear chains as long as a minute and a half in that game. Not to mention Fear in Aion was unbreakable, here we have stunbreakers and condi removal.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Almost nothing is changing for condi necromancer. You can still spec into Curses for both PoC and Terror…

You say that like it’s a good thing. But the current condi necro meta builds are inherently flawed and highly depend on being carried by a strong team, and even then necros are more of a liability to them than other classes.

What happend in the preview is really just Anet teasing us with:
“Hey guys, look! Some nice new Curses grandmaster traits that would go really well with condition builds. Sucks you can’t use them because Terror is blocking that spot! lol :P "

If it stays like this Parasitic Contagion and Lingering Curse will take a back seat to Terror in PvP, and in PvE it will be a net nerf because there you can easily max bleeding duration with food anyway but you’ll no longer have extended base durations on scepter conditions.