Guild Wars 2

Im becoming increasingly concerned about this class as it stands right now. I have played a necro since beta 1 and despite our problems, I just cant bring myself to play anything else as a main. I love the nostalgia surrounding this profession too much.

However, in map chat, concerning Fractals in particular, people are asking for only certain classes more and more. Even when I see a “LF2M (insert fractal lvl here)” and I respond, its either “what class are you”? I respond “Necro.” They respond, “Sorry but we need a Warrior or Guardian” or “Mesmer or Thief”. Sometimes they just simply put out a “LF_M, Warriors or Guardians only” or “Mesmers or Thieves only”.

Im very disturbed by this. I am afraid this will dwindle the necro play base even more or worse, cause people to not want us at all.

I believe the issue is that, we can do alot of things that any class can do better. Be it conditions, straight DPS, Healing….we are not the best at anything in this game. Guardians can protect grps so much better, Warriors can aoe better and deal better straight damage as well as thieves plus they all have much more useful utilities, Mesmers in particular.

I really hope this is a passing trend but in MMOs, this kinda thing only gets worse….not better.

I really think this profession needs re-thinking. We need something if not a few things that no one else can do. We need to be made unique. DS is not going to cut it…it really is pointless in Instances I think.

I hope someone is paying attention.

Here is a screen I took, 2 minutes after I logged in:
http://i48.tinypic.com/doqwl3.jpg

You should keep in mind that the groups who say they only want X class usually do the worst.

Do stuff with friends. We’ve done all the dungeons and none of us took a warrior, guardian, or thief. And I took my necro.

striker.3704:

You should keep in mind that the groups who say they only want X class usually do the worst.

Well, I hope youre right. I also must consider that they are doing it for a reason. If they feel or have seen that it is easier to run these instances with only certain classes, then the trend only gets worse as others not only see it, but experience it as well. I cant say for sure that they only do worse though. It wouldnt make much sense to ask for only certain classes if you do worse that way. It would make sense if they were asking for only certain classes because they in fact do better.

Then again, I am only speculating about that. It is happening though. I saw again today just as I logged in. Ill screen it if I can.

Unless the encounters change in such a way that the utility the Necromancer class brings to the table becomes important, it is unlikely to change, outside of drastic class balance changes. It is far easier to simply stack high burst/sustained damage (war/thief) or very tanky/support (Guardians), or Quickness/Condition cleansing (Mesmers).

Here we are:

Happened today right after I logged in…..

http://i48.tinypic.com/doqwl3.jpg <——also linked in original post for those who only read that.

It’s also a legacy of the whole “tank/healer/DPS” trinity. People still want a tank to hold aggro or at least being the one that gets the attention of the mobs.

Aexrael.5918:

It’s also a legacy of the whole “tank/healer/DPS” trinity. People still want a tank to hold aggro or at least being the one that gets the attention of the mobs.

I was about to say that. Probably people looking for warrior/guardian are of the mindset they need those to “tank.”

Aexrael.5918:

Unless the encounters change in such a way that the utility the Necromancer class brings to the table becomes important, it is unlikely to change, outside of drastic class balance changes. It is far easier to simply stack high burst/sustained damage (war/thief) or very tanky/support (Guardians), or Quickness/Condition cleansing (Mesmers).

Thats what Im afraid of. I wish we really had something that stood out as Necro only.

I pretty much knew that no one would even want Necros into Fractals so I didnt, and wont, bother with them until there is something more to us than “lol just master DS and you’ll be fine”

Meh, guardians are basically walking boon (aegis in particular) dispensers. Warriors, especially if they focus on crits, can put out non-limited direct damage (damaging conditions are hard capped in comparison). Same goes for thieves but in a slightly different fashion. Mesmers are for two things, portals (allowing the group to bypass stuff) and time warp (multiplying damage output).

Monarch.4026:

…I believe the issue is that, we can do alot of things that any class can do better. Be it conditions, straight DPS, Healing….we are not the best at anything in this game. …

Does this also include applying Vulnerability? (e.g., axe/focus)

This is kind of depressing.

For one… I prefer getting a necro that is well build then a Warrior full berserk no defence. Thief full berserk do way better then warrior who have nothing for them in melee, but they tend to drop very fast and make the whole… kill fast obsolut when you have to get them up every sec.

Guardian full tank do no damage… they are the worst class to get into Fractal… I dont want to take 3h for 3 maps… Yes they can get the aggro, but truly… 5 dps well construct can do way better then a tank, 3 dps and an healer.

Necro can do DPS, tank and heal well rounded… For me, it’s better! Yes you can find a better tank… but this tank do less damage then a Necro… Yes you can find a warrior who do better damage, but they are so weak… They drop like rock at the first veterant they see in duel. yes you can find a better healer… But also… they dont do much damage and are useless totaly…. You dont need an healer at all.

So… Why dont take a Necro that can do all, well rounded and also can survive, do damage and heal you if you are a kitten that need heal from other.

TheAgedGnome.7520:

Monarch.4026:

…I believe the issue is that, we can do alot of things that any class can do better. Be it conditions, straight DPS, Healing….we are not the best at anything in this game. …

Does this also include applying Vulnerability? (e.g., axe/focus)

This is kind of depressing.

Not that vulnerability really do much until you hit the 25% cap. Slap on fury and get instant double that or more for the duration. Vulnerability provide about as much as might pr unit, except might also boosts condition damage.

Why bring a class that
A. Slows everything down
B. Suffers from bleedcap if any other in group is speeced for it.
C. Doesnt add anything uniqe to help the group. Epedemic lol :>

But once you master DS im sure any group would want you, heck going solo is probely faster as the others would only slow you down.

But i do share the same concern as you but i lost pretty much all hope for this class when they added the downstate combofield, its like them saying this class makes no sense if more things make no sense maybe more people avoid it or reroll.

And yes ive also tried the “oh your necro im sorry your not welcome here”.

What exactly is the necromancer anyway, curses? nope its bleedstacking nothing about curses. Minions ? yeah they just stand there looking or go in dying instantly or the best one survive a fight and with no regen die instant next encounter.

I still dont get why anyone would want a necromancer with them, the only thing we could possible add to a group is epidemic.

Ombra you talk as if other classes can only spec for burst or tank while necro is in the middle, but guess what other classes have access to different builds.

Ombra.1234:

For one… I prefer getting a necro that is well build then a Warrior full berserk no defence. Thief full berserk do way better then warrior who have nothing for them in melee, but they tend to drop very fast and make the whole… kill fast obsolut when you have to get them up every sec.

Guardian full tank do no damage… they are the worst class to get into Fractal… I dont want to take 3h for 3 maps… Yes they can get the aggro, but truly… 5 dps well construct can do way better then a tank, 3 dps and an healer.

Necro can do DPS, tank and heal well rounded… For me, it’s better! Yes you can find a better tank… but this tank do less damage then a Necro… Yes you can find a warrior who do better damage, but they are so weak… They drop like rock at the first veterant they see in duel. yes you can find a better healer… But also… they dont do much damage and are useless totaly…. You dont need an healer at all.

So… Why dont take a Necro that can do all, well rounded and also can survive, do damage and heal you if you are a kitten that need heal from other.

Well rounded is another word for mediocrity, which is what it boils down to in the end. Why bring mediocrity when you can bring something which have far more of an impact.

The group asking for a warr/guard may all ready have a necro and/or ele or 2 or 3 and want another profession besides another light armor profession.

Raylina.7538:

The group asking for a warr/guard may all ready have a necro and/or ele or 2 or 3 and want another profession besides another light armor profession.

that was sarcasm right?

I see this trending as well. The problem with people is they just wanna rush through it and do everything as fast as possible. Well, with necro’s in the group we just slow them down because we are a DoTs class whether specced for prec, condition, power, whatever you want we are DoTs.

Also, this is why, when I get into a group for a dungeon I ask them, do you want me to tank/heal, or be dps?
I have two armor and weapon sets that allow me do both all it costs me is a measly 3s and some copper and i can switch. Well rounded is mediocrity so i go all or nothing in one aspect.

Eh, I was one of two necros on my first run through it. We did quite well (barring the cliffside fractal where half the party couldn’t make it past the wind…) Necros are not bad at it, but if people are wanting speed clears, we will get left behind.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Eh, I was one of two necros on my first run through it. We did quite well (barring the cliffside fractal where half the party couldn’t make it past the wind…) Necros are not bad at it, but if people are wanting speed clears, we will get left behind.

I would say that makes us Bad. If a class requires alot more effort to just manage while other classes need half the effort and do better then something is horrible wrong.

Its like when i played swtor i had scoundrel and sentinel dps, scoundrel required a ton of effort and management of resources while the sentinel was the easiest thing to play and did 40-50% more dps. Now dps isnt everything and every class should be uniqe in their own way but my scoundrel added nothing to the group while sentinel also added group healing + self healing + best dmg reduction abilities in the game.

Here we have a necromancer thats more of a burden to a group than wanted, which also makes us the users of necromancer unwilling to play and join groups. There is nothing uniqe about necromancers that makes us wanted.

High base hp + ekstra lifebar is impossible for em to balance the class around and they should have scrapped that idea long ago.

wiazabi.2549:

Raylina.7538:

The group asking for a warr/guard may all ready have a necro and/or ele or 2 or 3 and want another profession besides another light armor profession.

that was sarcasm right?

It wasn’t. Would you want to do an instance with 3 necro’s and 2 ele’s?

wiazabi.2549:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Eh, I was one of two necros on my first run through it. We did quite well (barring the cliffside fractal where half the party couldn’t make it past the wind…) Necros are not bad at it, but if people are wanting speed clears, we will get left behind.

I would say that makes us Bad. If a class requires alot more effort to just manage while other classes need half the effort and do better then something is horrible wrong.

Necros don’t require any effort above the other professions to manage/do well. The only thing is that necros are NOT speed-clearers. They clear reliably, not quickly. As such, when people want to do speed runs, they won’t pick up a necro.

@Raylina no i would most likely do it with 3 warriors 2 guardians.

@Drarnor Kunoram dont understand if speed runs arent reliable why would people do em. And if speedruns are what people wanna do then why shouldnt a necro be viable to do this?

wiazabi.2549:

@Drarnor Kunoram dont understand if speed runs arent reliable why would people do em. And if speedruns are what people wanna do then why shouldnt a necro be viable to do this?

Speed runs require glass cannons and a tank, for the most part. If the aggro gets pulled by the wrong person, the reliability drops very rapidly.

It’s not that necros shouldn’t be viable for speed runs, it’s that their kit makes it so they can’t be viable for them. Yes, this is a problem. No, I don’t think it’s as massive as people make it out to be.

Its already been happening. I posted this in another thread already but last night I got turned down for a FotM group because “Necromancers can’t DPS”. FotM is already hard enough getting a group for because of the stupid level mechanic. This just makes things even worse. I honestly don’t know why I keep playing this class any more.

I have never had a problem getting into groups for normal dungeons or fractals on my necro, well except that time they had 3 necros already
I can understand them asking for guardians, they really make everything easier IMO, thieves, mesmers or warriors I dont get though.

digiowl.9620:

TheAgedGnome.7520:

Monarch.4026:

…I believe the issue is that, we can do alot of things that any class can do better. Be it conditions, straight DPS, Healing….we are not the best at anything in this game. …

Does this also include applying Vulnerability? (e.g., axe/focus)

This is kind of depressing.

Not that vulnerability really do much until you hit the 25% cap. Slap on fury and get instant double that or more for the duration. Vulnerability provide about as much as might pr unit, except might also boosts condition damage.

A rather irrelevant remark when we have 1 way to “slap on fury.” And that’s the Furious Demise trait in Curses.

Fury is very strong but that’s probably part of the reason it’s not particularly easy to get. Necros are the best at vulnerabiltiy stacking, especially with Well of Suffering and Epidemic. I actually just retooled my build to make it focus on Epidemic and spreading vulnerability, chills, weakness and immobilizes. In a group setting it’s very easy to keep up large vulnerability stacks on your own. The question is if that utility makes you worth bringing. On top of damage and survivability, I think the offensive boost and defensive boost to your whole group is excellent. But it’s hard making those claims without more definitive proof and without numbskulls who will always take the most obvious route thinking roles are as simple as 1, 2, 3.

I think we’ll have a better idea of who is capable of what when Fractals start hitting walls in what level people are maxing out at.

I think the guy saying because we’re good at everything that just makes us mediocre is mistaken because class roles are not as rigid as they are in other MMOs.

digiowl.9620:

Not that vulnerability really do much until you hit the 25% cap. Slap on fury and get instant double that or more for the duration. Vulnerability provide about as much as might pr unit, except might also boosts condition damage.

A full stack of vulnerability doesn’t make you do 25% more damage. It makes EVERYONE do 25% more damage.

Fury makes you crit more. That means you do 50% more damage (assuming you’re hitting 100% crit chance).

Vuln makes your whole group hit harder, including you. I guarantee you that 25% of your party’s damage is greater than 50% of your damage. Vuln stacking is worth it in a group setting. Solo, it doesn’t make as much sense. Even so, I swapped away and then back to a vuln build because it made dungeons go so much faster (25% faster, to be exact).

Monarch.4026:

striker.3704:

You should keep in mind that the groups who say they only want X class usually do the worst.

Well, I hope youre right.

He is not right thats just called wishful thinking, hardcore gamers know what classes are weak and will avoid grouping with them.

A necro very versed in the class is fine, however an average necro is going to be alot worst then a average War guard mes etc… Gamers notice these things, most necros I have grouped with are useless and I would rather have a faceroll warrior guardian mes or thief.

Well, I don’t know how you keep 25% up all the time, but you can get quite a lot of vuln regardless. And also it doesn’t affect condition damage since that is already negating all armor. But I agree with your overall point.

In that ‘other’ MMO the design of making others better has been debunked, players want to be great themselves. Simply saying this class adds Vulnerability or removes conditions or removes boons so others don’t get hurt as much and building a class around that WoW has proven to fail…Think Shadow Priest when they simply buffed others!

Inside of a dungeon each and every class needs to feel great and powerful its that simple.

Come on, I have 3 pg at lvl cap, including the necro. it is clear that he has serious problems, just look at the amount of complaints on this forum. I came to think that Anet hate his necro remaining completely indifferent while sinking into the abyss. Soon there will be many dropouts, then anet insert a ridiculous patch that will increase the damage. They decided to create something interesting and has remained just an idea. Yes, true, it’s really fun for me to use my necro but not much. With my other pg do everything faster and better. Anet will continue to remain indifferent for much longer, since it probably does not read the topic of the necromancer.

@PinCushion , there are other classes that are better at vulnerability stacking and do more dmg in the process.

(25% faster, to be exact). <- exact ? how do you keep 25% stacks on an entire dungeon, bypass the process of stacking up to the 25 and avoid the long cooldown on well of suffering.

Vulnerability does nothing for condition dmg so i hope your entire group is power based.

I’ve never had a problem running my necro in Fractals. Guild or PUG. Speedclear or otherwise. Probably just lucky, I suppose. I’m genuinely sorry to see that this is a problem, though. Sucks.

I think it’s also a problem we bring upon ourselves to a certain degree.

If you go through the forums and claim we are the most bugged and useless
profession in the game, people might start to believe it.

We aren’t useless and the parties i have joined so far were happy to have me around.

while I don’t do dungeons seriously enough to really judge, I always inwardly sigh if the person I invited turns out to be a thief.. maybe I just got the bad ones, but their main skill seemed to be stealthy and everything and then instadowning every freaking time because they went glass cannon.. I’ve only had 1 or 2 random groups with necros but they were exceptionally useful, didn’t die and ressed the thiefs (which were down ofc).

usually achievement points > player class. did a pug once where everyone except me was below 1k, some even below 500, the AC path 1 run took forever – but we made it through and the people were really nice, which is preferable to some 3k+ guys who think they know everything and try to run past mobs but instead pull them and get the group killed…

so: if you want to be effective, by all means find a ‘steady’ group or guild and use the classes working best together, if you pug, ignore classes and points, just look for nice people and even a longer run will be enjoyable…

@everybody not wanting necros in a pug: l2p, they probably are more useful than you… and if not, they’d be just as useless as a warrior (4 sigil probably?).

I don’t yet have the time on a Necro to make definitive statements, but I’ve seen this kind of “we’re mediocre and every other class can do what we do, but better” talk repeatedly in MMOs … when it wasn’t true. I also think that Dulon nailed it on the head when he mentions that people doing research on party makeup come to places like this and see the comments and walk away with “Necros are weak and the buggiest profession, so why bring them?”

In talking with my buddies, I mentioned that Necros were the buggiest class. I’d bought into that. Then I started actually comparing bugs with my Elementalist and Mesmer to Necro bugs, and it’s about the same. Long-term, class-defining bugs in all three classes. Some Elementalist bugs were finally fixed in the latest patch — though at least two major abilities were broken by the “fix”. Mesmers had their one OP skill “nerfed” in a stupid way that fixed nothing, while another skill that was being abused in WvW resulted in a “fix” that’s made illusions very unreliable.

People want Guardians because they have so many protection/healing skills and heavy armor so anyone can make them work and you’d have to really try very hard to not benefit the entire party. Personally, the only class I’d be biased against in a dungeon are Rangers, and there mainly because of pet issues.

Mega Skeleton.8259:

digiowl.9620:

TheAgedGnome.7520:

Monarch.4026:

…I believe the issue is that, we can do alot of things that any class can do better. Be it conditions, straight DPS, Healing….we are not the best at anything in this game. …

Does this also include applying Vulnerability? (e.g., axe/focus)

This is kind of depressing.

Not that vulnerability really do much until you hit the 25% cap. Slap on fury and get instant double that or more for the duration. Vulnerability provide about as much as might pr unit, except might also boosts condition damage.

A rather irrelevant remark when we have 1 way to “slap on fury.” And that’s the Furious Demise trait in Curses.

I was looking at it in general, not specifically for necromancers, as a way to explain the choice of warriors. A warrior have multiple ways to gain quite a bit of time with fury, one of them being the greatsword burst ability (9 seconds at level 3).

Sure, it is just for one. But that one can then produce damage that can match 3-4 with a full vulnerability stack, a stack that a necromancer is hard pressed to fill on his own btw, if he has geared for crit damage.

In essence, the crit mechanic at present favors choosing warrior over necro in a group if the aim is DPS.

And similarly for thief, they can gain 10 seconds of fury via a traited steal. And if they use said ability without a target, they still get those 10 seconds, but the cooldown is only 5 for the ability. Never mind that a out of stealth attack can be made to always crit (never mind that the trait line to gain that grants both precision and crit damage percentage).

Raylina.7538:

wiazabi.2549:

Raylina.7538:

The group asking for a warr/guard may all ready have a necro and/or ele or 2 or 3 and want another profession besides another light armor profession.

that was sarcasm right?

It wasn’t. Would you want to do an instance with 3 necro’s and 2 ele’s?

I’ve done instances like that and the were very quick.

See it like this: Those people are simply not good enough to manage the dungeon with a necromancer
Now, do you really want to play with people who have such a narrow mindset?

My guild keeps running dungeons with at least 3 necros, works just fine…

Also, I believe I need to keep mentioning this: Every profession has problems, and every profession forum is full of people complaining how their profession is worst off and unplayble and oh so bugged…we’re just nothing special that way.

I wouldn’t consider the presence of Necromancer a handicap.

Unless it’s a pure conditionmancer. Aside from the usual drawbacks of a pure
condition spec, necromancers also suffer from the fact that it renders Death Shroud
pretty much useless.
Scepter is one of the main weapon when it comes to conditions but even that has a
power based attack.

Don’t get me wrong, i think a pure condition spec can still work, but it requires the
party to sync up their abilities to ensure the bleed cap isn’t a problem. But in a pug
this can’t be taken for granted .

Unfortunately, a lot of necromancers consider some all out condition spec their only
option.

If Anet allowed us to have multiple template trait sets on hand and easy to switch to (likely at the same fee as the current retrain cost pr switch) people would perhaps be more willing to swap to a non-condition build for dungeons and such.

i love necro, i just angry becouse need huge fix. I hope in future.Soon future

Funnily enough, all my best groups this past week have had multiple Necros in them.

Epidemic is rigged for speed clearing IMO

I agree with OP.

-it feels like heavy armor classes aka guard/warrior just get more free base stats than other classes, while, at least for warrior, getting the same high damage. Guardian maybe not quite as much damage but similar boon stacking and healign to elementalist while being less squishy. Other classes have less stats and seemingly don’t get much in return. I don’t actually think it is anything to do with wanting a tank, just these classes have good grp support via shouts, banners, etc, good survivability and good/decent damage
-i don’t know much about rangers. Water field is very good, I don’t know what their dmge is like.
-Mesmers: I think the mesmer player has to be good. Actually for me mesmer is the class I am wary of in dungeons. I don’t really see how great they can be given how easy clones die+lack of spammable aoe. The advantage they bring is some good utilities+elite
-Ideal dungeon group probably mostly heavy armor
-Also I would like to say, I got no problem with spammable damage abilities, or very simple rotations for pvp or pve. I prefer classes like this because you don’t have to think about what you’re doing, u can simply spam ur easymode damage rotation and instead pay attention to your surroundings, to using your survival/situational/utility moves at the right time, etc. I do not find this boring at all. Unfortunately in this game there is a lack of ANY kind of ability full stop lol. not a fan of how limited it is.

If I keep playing this game, and mainly playing pve , then i find myself inevitably drawn to playing a warrior. my warrior is lvl 20 but i may lose interest before i level it. (i quit pvp until i see massive nerfs/buffs/major fixes; at the rate they are going this will be in 2 years time)

I think a lot of people still have a heavy vs. light armor mindset they got in other games
where the difference is something like 20% vs 50% basic damage reduction.

Here in GW2 it’s something like a difference of 200-300 armor in the end.

A saw warriors who honestly believed that when they go glasscannon, they still
can take more damage than any light armor class that gets toughness.

It’s simply not true.

Dulon.9347:

I think a lot of people still have a heavy vs. light armor mindset they got in other games
where the difference is something like 20% vs 50% basic damage reduction.

Here in GW2 it’s something like a difference of 200-300 armor in the end.

A saw warriors who honestly believed that when they go glasscannon, they still
can take more damage than any light armor class that gets toughness.

It’s simply not true.

You don’t think 10,8k hp vs 18,3k hp or
2,7k armor vs 3,1k armor
doesn’t make a difference?
That is a kitten ton of stats.
I’m not saying a heavy armor who goes glass cannon isnt going to be squishy, but I am saying they have the luxury of more choice of stats rather than it being almost compulsory to get some vit/tough. I already play glass cannon thief, why not play glass cannon warrior and get a bit more buffer room for free. Those new items with the tough/pow/crit dmge seem almost designed for warrior who have easy access to health and fury.

If the max hp is an issue, guardian is disqualified too since it shares the lowest base
health pool with elementalist and thief.

Let’s compare Warrior and Necromancer since this topic is about Necromancers
being subpar.
They both have the same base health pool, Warrior has more armor because of
their armor class. Their profession mechanic however is primary offensive, while
DS is better as a defensive ability.
That helps to even it out.

But since you also consider Guardian good, it’s easy:
The difference between heavy and light armor is 291.
They difference between Guardian and Necromancer health pools is 7567.

In order to have the same armor as a Guardian, a Necro has to spend 291 extra
toughness.
If the Guardian wants to have the same health pool as a Necro, he has to spend extra 756 points in vitality.

Warrior seems to have the best of both worlds, but i think it’s lacking a bit on the
health regeneration department in return.

i am not an expert or anything. And i dont really do dungeons too much but anytime in pve world doing champion killing its me a guardian with my little engineer buddy and we usually run into random necros let me tell you necros are awesome partners in getting into things. just because a class is not flash dont make it bad just understated elegance.