Guild Wars 2

Somoe.3621:

I never called using these skills in every/any build “the norm”, I’m simply pointing out that Necromancers do in fact have them. Also, “we don’t have access to multiple fears if we don’t take multiple fears” isn’t a very good argument.

Pointing out that necros have them presumes they are readily or somewhat available. Being tied directly to one weapon specific skill is not readily available. Tied to say two or all weapons (like potentially bleed and poison) would be readily available. Technically correct may be the best kind of correct, but come on.

And that is actually an excellent argument, becuase I cannot take utilities for fear. Does a mesmer have to use any specific weapon to get confusion and daze? No. Does it have to take staff to get burn? Nope, it can take torch. Does it need sceptor for block? Nope, has sword offhand for that too. A utility AND a weapon skill that gives a blink effect, sure! 4 different ways to go into stealth? Okay! All of that available in a multitude of trait lines and weapons sets. Are you following me here at all?

If all the necro problems were REALLY in the minds of the forum community, which is a very small subset of the population, necro would be a more well represented class in wvw/pve/pvp.

I get that you are countering intense forum negativity here, but you need to be realistic about the prospects of how limited our toolkit is under normal circumstances. And for the third time this forum topic I will point out that there is a REASON why the class is significantly under-played. Do you have a good reason for that? (L2P isn’t the answer btw)

The main necro issue isn’t what we are able to do, it is how we do it, and how good we are at that.

Bunker – we can somewhat bunker with our base health and DS – however it gets limited by its own decay rate. It helps against burst damage but bunker against bunker for example its flat out self limiting. It also prevents you from being healed, which severly cripples 2 of our 3 heals. The HOT effect of bloodfiend and well are what could make them good – if Deathshroud wouldnt prevent it. Also all siphon life effects through traits, runes, food, sigils, are useless. Our class mechanic takes a big part of that builds potential. Also the natural decay makes it really bad. Bunker means stay alive, prevent damage, recover from damage – our lifeforce decays naturally. And that decay is very big factor against other bunkers.

Burst Damage / Glass Cannon: Our damage can we somewhat okay. Not as bursty as Thief, Warrior, Mesmer but decent. However, what makes us weaker then the mentioned classes are our ways to prevent damage – we have no real damage prevention other then DS. Also the most reliable source of burst (DS #1) gets lower and lower if we try to migiate damage. We then are left with wells and dagger AA / axe #2 for damage, this damage is still okay, but takes a lot of effort in terms of utiliy skills. All other burst classes deal more damage trough weapon skills alone – means 3 utility skills to migiate damage or adapt the build.

Conditions:
Again we are only average. We apply conditions rather slow – compare our scepter AA with other condition based auto attacks – its reliable because it hits instant without a projectile but apart from that its pretty lackluster. We have some skills that are good – scepter #2 , dagger#5, staff #2 on our weapon sets and also some nice ways to play around with conditions which makes that part most likely the strongest overall choice in spvp and wvw. Still our class mechanic adds nothing to this kind of builds. We have a gapcloser chill/bleed as only bleeding in DS. The buff to Fear with Terror damage helps a bit though. We handle and inflict conditions in a different way then other similar minded builds, which is great in terms of class diversity and with some more tweaks that kinda builds will be in a good spot.

The Metagolem build with p/v/t gear is somewhat decent – and most likely the way the necro is meant to be played as it gives the best “attrition” feeling, however if we can get an enemy down enough to finish him chances are good that they stealth/port/dash/leap away. We cant keep up with that – not even the slightest. We have 4 “teleport” skills, but how usable are they? The only halfway reliable gapcloser is DS#2. Where all other movement skills can be used offensiv and defensive alike we get stuck in one direction.

I wont comment much on our utility skills – some are good, some are too situation dependet, and most are just terrible. The thing i want to point out is – our class mechanic is the only in the entire game that interacts negative to some utility skills. DS cancels other sprectal skills – Thats just pointless and stupid – skills should get a good synergy, not the opposite.

Our elite skills also behave strange. Plague Form and Lich Form destroy minions and spectral effects – 2 of our profession based utility skilltypes – our third elite skill the Golem is really only viable if you specc for the minion improvements. This part doenst matter that much untill now as every class has weak elite skills (except mesmers)

We have “many” combo fields and finishers – most are tied to our utility skills. On land we have 2 finishers and one field – all tied to our staff. If we want to combo more then once each bluemoon, we are forced to pick the staff.

If i play the necro in WvW and get a nice 1 vs 1 duel i rarely loose. But that doenst make me feel good or strong at all. The factor isnt my skill – its the enemy skill. Most people are either upleveled, use a metafaceroll build and get panic if the one button mashing method doenst work or doenst know how to play against necros because they are encountered so rarely.

We would have so many potential to be an really awesome, interesting, and complex class. Yet we are said to be the “hardest to learn” class. Of course, we get a mix of terribad standalone skills and are forced to get something decent wotking withthem – and THAT is hard. The rest are simple skills or simple gtaoe – no sequences, no multiple uses, no timing needed, hell our own profession mechanic is just so generic and limiting its horrible.

Deathsroud looks good on paper, it also can be used decently but in most situations its so borderline useless its not even funny.

I love the necro, and even though they have so many wasted potential i enjoy playing it – i like that playstyle much more then the more simple classes – i just hope they realize and fix the coreproblems before the release of Guildwars 3

Quillixx.7034:

You do realize that the “difficult to master” comment you are parroting, is a running joke on the necro forum due to its satire, right? GW2 classes in general are very linear, and none of them are difficult to master, especially when pared up against some other MMOs.

When folks spout the “difficult to master” and its inverse “wants to push 2 buttons to win” memes, what they are actually doing is evading the need to explain what 3, or 6, or 19 buttons the other person should be pushing instead. This way, they present no rebuttable information and contribute nothing to the thread but their braggadocio.

Anyone who thinks necros are even remotely “difficult to master” needs to spend time on an engineer or a elementalist.

While I agree in spirit the d/d ele is more complicated and requires significantly more key strokes, it is also significantly more forgiving, with the plethora of buffs and heals. You botch a move on dd ele no big deal. You accidentally hop out of DS before your heal
comes off cooldown, or double tap DS and you may outright die.

Glass cannon shatter mesmer works the same. If you accidently shatter 1 instead of shatter 4 and you are being focused you die. The only reason necro lacks complexity is because the profession skill is so boring and restrictive. Since we get no immunities or blocks or target breaks, the class is more difficult because there is no oh kitten button. However since DS can just be used as a damage soak, it isn’t very tactical.

Anyone stating necros are fine have either not played a necro or haven’t played the other classes. Necros are far from fine.

Necromancer traits are a flat out mess. I absolutely struggle to pick traits because they are all so terrible. Most of the blood magic traits are far worse than a food buff. The soulreaping line is so mediocre and most of whats in it deals with DS, which is mediocre at best. Curses contains our precision but only has 3 traits that deal with crits, all of which are not great. 33% chance on crit to get 1% lifeforce? REALLY? 25% chance on crit to get weakness, it isn’t awful but certainly not grandmaster level. And then we have the 66% chance to cause a 1s bleed, a whole 1s. Let’s look at the same adept level trait of a warrior, 33% chance to cause a 3s bleed. So 50% less chance to cause the bleed but 300% the duration, that seems balanced! It gets better though! Both classes have traits for longer bleeds, the necromancers is 20% and the warriors is 50%….wait what? They get 30% longer bleeds on the same level trait? So now that 3s bleed turns into 4.5s vs our 1.2s, that’s fair right?

The whole trait tree is a jumbled mess with incredibly low synergy. Most builds revolve around 2-3 traits synergizing where other classes have builds were every trait synergizes. The devs honestly need to be ashamed of themselves for releasing the necro traits this way(more so since most of them were broken at release and some still are) and the fact they still are months later just makes me lose more conidence in ArenaNet.

Then there are the weapons we get which are frankly barely better than our traits. Our power scaling is awful. We lose a ton of damage because we have conditions(good or bad) added to almost every skill where other classes have good damage on top of the conditions. Why does a 1s fear mean we have to do abysmally low damage? Most of our utility skills are garbage, especially since minions are awful and we have more than a few buggy ones.

The ONLY good things a necromancer brings to the table is condition conversion and transfer. That hardly makes up for all the shortcomings of the majority of traits, weapons, death shroud, utilities, and elites. I could go further into detail about a ton of stuff but honestly it’s all over these boards already.

Jknifer.6803:

Somoe.3621:

XiL.4318:

sorrow.2364:

Somoe.3621:

cut

This guy clearly doesn’t play Necro, or probably he hasn’t played it enough.
There is no point to argue with him.

Some people think Wiki makes them an expert.

I’m not saying the Necromancer is perfectly balanced but yall are being complete drama queens about this. Conveniently ignoring what the class has going for it and exaggerating its weaknesses wont make buffs come any sooner. Oh, and pretending that everyone outside of the “Necromancer-Main Master Race” is too ignorant to comprehend your “plight” doesn’t help you either.

Please, get over yourselves.

I wouldn’t waste your time with these trolls. They are obviously terrible at the class and are jealous of better players who can make the necro work.

Normally, I would call you a fanboy for a post like that but I think you may be right. There’s some serious exaggerating going on in here.

OP
The necro is (mostly) an attrition class. That is, you stay alive to kill. It just takes time because you need your conditions to work.

This is similar to my build at level 70 (I haven’t finished her yet, and the build is not perfect but I don’t care). I have played her for 68 hours. Not all of that time was spent leveling. That’s faster than I leveled my warrior by far.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/

Rennoko.5731:

Pointing out that necros have them presumes they are readily or somewhat available. Being tied directly to one weapon specific skill is not readily available. Tied to say two or all weapons (like potentially bleed and poison) would be readily available. Technically correct may be the best kind of correct, but come on.

Have you actually read anything I’ve posted?

Pointing out that Necromancers have these abilities presumes they’re available to the class, period. It doesn’t matter how readily accessible or balanced they are, the class still has them. This is ALL I was trying to point out in my posts.

Rennoko.5731:

And that is actually an excellent argument, becuase I cannot take utilities for fear. Does a mesmer have to use any specific weapon to get confusion and daze? No. Does it have to take staff to get burn? Nope, it can take torch. Does it need sceptor for block? Nope, has sword offhand for that too. A utility AND a weapon skill that gives a blink effect, sure! 4 different ways to go into stealth? Okay! All of that available in a multitude of trait lines and weapons sets. Are you following me here at all?

I’m not even going to bother with this.

Rennoko.5731:

If all the necro problems were REALLY in the minds of the forum community, which is a very small subset of the population, necro would be a more well represented class in wvw/pve/pvp.

I get that you are countering intense forum negativity here, but you need to be realistic about the prospects of how limited our toolkit is under normal circumstances. And for the third time this forum topic I will point out that there is a REASON why the class is significantly under-played. Do you have a good reason for that? (L2P isn’t the answer btw)

- I never said or implied that Necromancers were well represented in WvW/PvE/PvP
- I never said or implied that Necromancers didn’t have limited toolkits.
- I never said or implied that Necromancers aren’t underplayed.
- I never said or implied that I have a “good reason” for why Necromancers are underplayed.

Just because I’m not wallowing in self-pity, like the rest of this forum apparently is, that doesn’t mean I think Necromancer’s are fine.

@Somoe

Those abilities you listed before do look impressive when viewed like that..a list.

Now try and work those into a viable build and you start tripping over all sorts of issues like lack of weapon/trait synergy, excessive cooldowns, pitifully short durations (fear anyone), broken mechanics and really lackluster damage (attrition comes at a cost).

I don’t think anyone is arguing we have don’t access to some great abilities but we are arguing that we cannot access enough of them to be competitive other than in a few niche areas….and many don’t like being painted into small corners.

Somoe.3621:

- I never said or implied that Necromancers were well represented in WvW/PvE/PvP
- I never said or implied that Necromancers didn’t have limited toolkits.
- I never said or implied that Necromancers aren’t underplayed.
- I never said or implied that I have a “good reason” for why Necromancers are underplayed.

Just because I’m not wallowing in self-pity, like the rest of this forum apparently is, that doesn’t mean I think Necromancer’s are fine.

When you pull data to show that we have access to more combo fields and finishers than other classes, and act like that is evidence we are “balanced”, everyone shakes their head. Because that was your implication. The OP says we have no fields and finishers, you state we have MORE than other classes. Ignoring how much more accessible the leap/field finishers are for those other classes.

If all you wanted to do was prove the OP wrong on that point you succeeded. But he isn’t wrong on the practical use/application of those fields/finishers. Coming into a post and making a comment like that is exactly the kind of thing to make a forum troll dev pat himself on the back for a job well done in class balance.

The point of the OP was we as a class are weak in that area, reguardless how many “options” the wiki says we have.

Oldbugga.7029:

@Somoe

Those abilities you listed before do look impressive when viewed like that..a list.

Now try and work those into a viable build and you start tripping over all sorts of issues like lack of weapon/trait synergy, excessive cooldowns, pitifully short durations (fear anyone), broken mechanics and really lackluster damage (attrition comes at a cost).

I don’t think anyone is arguing we have don’t access to some great abilities but we are arguing that we cannot access enough of them to be competitive other than in a few niche areas….and many don’t like being painted into small corners.

Rennoko.5731:

When you pull data to show that we have access to more combo fields and finishers than other classes, and act like that is evidence we are “balanced”, everyone shakes their head. Because that was your implication. The OP says we have no fields and finishers, you state we have MORE than other classes. Ignoring how much more accessible the leap/field finishers are for those other classes.

If all you wanted to do was prove the OP wrong on that point you succeeded. But he isn’t wrong on the practical use/application of those fields/finishers. Coming into a post and making a comment like that is exactly the kind of thing to make a forum troll dev pat himself on the back for a job well done in class balance.

The point of the OP was we as a class are weak in that area, reguardless how many “options” the wiki says we have.

When did I ever act like my lists where evidence that Necromancers are “balanced”? Could you PLEASE stop putting words in my mouth? The entire point of my lists was to show that Necromancers have these abilities because the OP said that they didn’t, that’s LITERALLY IT. In no way did I imply “Necro’s are balanced, here’s a list of good skills that they have as proof”.

The OP used generalized statements to try and make Necromancers look worse off then they actually are so I proved them false. This does not mean I think Necro’s are balanced. For the love of god, how many times do I have to repeat myself? I’ve said this roughly 3-4 times already and I’m still getting the same replies. Apparently no one in this thread has any reading comprehension, I give up.

Somoe.3621:

Guardians:
Fields – 9 skills, 2 types
Finishers – 8 skills, 4 types
Necro’s have 3 more finisher abilities and 2 more types of combo fields.

Mesmers:
Fields – 7 skills, 2 types
Finishers – 9 skills, 4 types
Necro’s have 2 more finisher abilities, 2 more field abilities, and 2 more types of fields.

Implication – Necros are better off than mesmers and Guardians for combo fields an finishers. In practical play – not true.

OP told a false story to make necros look worse off. You quote facts that while true painted a picture that makes necros look like they are fine. While I appreciate that you are acknowledging you do not agree that necros are fine, the implication (note – IMPLICATION) of your post was “get over it OP, you are wrong, and its not that bad”. Reality? It is pretty bad.

If you had really wanted to contribute effectively to expanding the content of the OP, you could have compared each of the finishers available to those classes and their practical applications (or lack there of). Or you could just throw out there that necros get more….

Just an an FYI, the ‘count’ of combo fields and finishers in the OP was based on the pre-Dec 14th patch. In which case it was accurate in both count and functional participation of the combo game mechanics. The lists I was using were originally from last summer, and remained accurate (for the most part) up through the Dec patch. The Dec patch added quantity, but didn’t actually give the necro any more practical involvement in the combo system. I was also going off of the wiki sources, which haven’t been updated for a while, but illustrate the point.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Table_of_necromancer_combo_skills

The actual value and meaning behind the comment is, accurate. If the only point you can add to the discussion is the literal quantity is now off, while the content and implication of the statement holds true, then in the end, you really haven’t added anything of consequence to this discussion, which IS based on balance and class design.

The same holds true for the “burst movement speed” statement. The community at large (not just the necro community sub-set) refers to abilities that allow for fast travel pursue & escape as “burst movement”. While the literal definition does hold true for some of the necro abilities, none of the abilities the necro possesses actually fulfill those roles. Again, the comment holds true, and this discussion is about balance.

Unless you have any dispute on the balance aspects the OP comments describe, your contribution to this thread has been wasteful.

Quillixx.7034:

The same holds true for the “burst movement speed” statement. The community at large (not just the necro community sub-set) refers to abilities that allow for fast travel pursue & escape as “burst movement”. While the literal definition does hold true for some of the necro abilities, none of the abilities the necro possesses actually fulfill those roles. Again, the comment holds true, and this discussion is about balance.

Okay I get it: nobody likes Dark Path. But how does it not count as a pursuit skill? It has a deceptively short range (if you cast it from around 900 it’s a bit too easy for the target to move the projectile path enough to be obstructed) but when successful it still teleports you to the target while also chilling them.

Dark Path is unreliable enough that I’d say a large number of Necromancer players don’t bother using it as a pursuit skill; the conclusion being that if it doesn’t get used as such, then it effectively does not count as such.

Edit:

Now if the chill duration was longer or (preferably) the base recharge shorter, it might see more use as a gap closer/pursuit skill.

edit: This of course does not address the issue that many Necromancer players may not want to close to melee range. So it gets relegated to niche use.

I would just like to request that people like the OP keep whining about Necro. Your personal failures and/or shortcomings ensure that one of the most powerful classes in the game remains safely away from the nerf bat.

just my 2¢

I agree with every single point on OP. I just don’t understand how someone could argue that Necros are powerfull at all, at least on a PvP/WvW point of view.

Fozer.2139:

I agree with every single point on OP. I just don’t understand how someone could argue that Necros are powerfull at all, at least on a PvP/WvW point of view.

It’s simple… when someone else is playing one everyday in WvW with plenty of success.

Do you roam or zerg? I have a hard time dealing with theifs, no matter what my build is, how do you deal with them?

Fozer.2139:

Do you roam or zerg? I have a hard time dealing with theifs, no matter what my build is, how do you deal with them?

Depends on the thief build. P/D ones I just ignore. I dont use my necro to go solo, but do use it in havoc and zerg equally fine.

Given that two of my favorite Necro builds include plenty of SR, a thief wont be able to kill you quick enough before he/she gets scared. For Necros having trouble, I would suggest that you ignore most of what you have seen/heard re: builds and think outside the box.. You may discover some fun things

The reason why dark path doesn’t count as a “burst” movement skill is because it has a cast time and a travel time, making it both avoidable and unreliable and slow. Take the warrior leap, or thief HS abilities. They are nearly instant, cover a nice distance, and don’t have any target requirements. Strong and reliable gap closers, much like shadowstep and blink. I am not saying necros NEED this, I am just pointed out what the OP is trying to say.

Talentless.5708:

I would just like to request that people like the OP keep whining about Necro. Your personal failures and/or shortcomings ensure that one of the most powerful classes in the game remains safely away from the nerf bat.

just my 2¢

One of the most powerful classes in the game is a significantly debatable point. I use necro to great effect, and when I drop a fire buffed guild claimer at a camp in 30 seconds solo everyone ooo’s and ahhh’s, but calling necros one of the most powerful…

Maybe I just have yet to see you in the battlefield effectively fending off 5+ people, like a thief, mesmer, DD ele can? Or single handedly bombing siege off a keep like a staff ele/ranger? Or safe stomping people out in the open?

No one flips a buffed camp like a condition necro, but any other necro build in WvW (say one that focuses on Dagger/Axe), is going to have a very hard time finding an effective niche when fights are often 2v10, 10v2, or 40v40.

But don’t get me wrong. Necro is very strong in small skirmish fights in a condition build/duration build. 10v10 is where having a necro and not having a necro can mean victory or defeat. That effectiveness starts to wear off with the numbers get too large and its too easy for people to sink back in the amorphous blob that is the zerg.

I am curious about your outside the box build though, because I have been up and down everything available to the necro in runes/sigils/traits/equipment, and have a really hard time finding anything that works in WvW as well as a duration condition spec traited for 100% bleeds and 100% fears. People still insist on not running fear breaks, which I take advantage of.

Now for 1v1, dueling, there are all kinds of nice, fun, and interesting builds. And even 2v2/3v3 interactions. But seeing as how WvW does not allow you to control the scale of the fight, building for that kind of fight seems like poor planning. Starting a fight with a long duration chill from DS2 and staff3, spread to 5 targets can shift a fight in your team favor in a hurry.

Talentless.5708:

I would just like to request that people like the OP keep whining about Necro. Your personal failures and/or shortcomings ensure that one of the most powerful classes in the game remains safely away from the nerf bat.

just my 2¢

Srsly? No information to back up your vague comments? How is the neco one of the most powerful classes? Or does completing a thought cost more than 2¢?

Talentless.5708:

Depends on the thief build. P/D ones I just ignore. I dont use my necro to go solo, but do use it in havoc and zerg equally fine.
Given that two of my favorite Necro builds include plenty of SR, a thief wont be able to kill you quick enough before he/she gets scared.

So let me get this straight. You don’t solo, you run around in multi group, or zerg form in WvW, and you say the necro is just… fine? A post ago it was “one of the most powerful classes in the game”.

Your SR build can’t out survive/DPS my D/D Ele. The fight itself is pre-determined due to game mechanics. D/D Ele even trumps a duel build necro, thanks to game mechanics. My Cleric/Shout Guard is drastically superior over your SR necro. But you really aren’t to blame. ANet has done nothing to curb the current class/build meta which is why everyone has already rolled Ele and Guard alts.

Your grand advice on one of the most powerful classes in the game is to ignore a thief?
I’m truly awestruck by the profound depth of your insight.

As for everyone that really wants to know the quality of this player… Here is a bit of insight of my own. After SBI was pushed out of Tier 1 WvW, and after SBI again lost to Tier 2 servers, SF (this player’s guild) server hops back into Tier 1 onto JQ. As it turns out, SF’s need to be in T1 WvW trumps server loyalty, challenging game play, and hard work to get back into T1 as a server. But again, you’re really not to blame, ANet made it easy to jump ship (*Looks at a broken statue of liberty and shouts, “ kitten those filthy game mechanics…. kitten them!”). Now that you’re on JQ, would you please roll an Ele or Guard alt so we aren’t carrying your necro?

Edit: Uhh… D. A. M. with an N. is a filtered word? So much for my Planet of the Apes parody… Even the mechanics of the necro forums are keeping the man down!

@Quillixx
Serious question:
Why did you make this post?

I assume it is for:
“This thread was created to show discrepancies in class balance at the design level.”
“The shortcomings are a list of design pitfalls, and not open to interpretation or opinion, as you seem think they are. It’s simply stating a fact.”

While you make some good points and are certainly entitled to your own opinions regarding the current state of necros, discounting others’ opinions of the class just because they do not conform to your expectations is not constructive.
This of course can be turned around to the other side of the argument as well. Pointless arguing on both sides is doing nothing to help our class.

I did not post on this thread to be trolled or create conflict. When people resort to personal attacks they dont warrant a response.

Rennoko, since you appear to be a like-minded reasonable person, I will respond to your post

If you are interested in some of the builds I have made that, in my opinion, are very effective, I will PM you, but I dont share such things on an open forum – see the immature responses you get from some others…

I will say that a build that works for one person is never guaranteed to work for another, as finding a build/class that suits your playstyle is more important.

Also another disclaimer – my view of balance issues is apparently different than the OP. I dont consider whether a Necro can solo 5 people to be a requirement of being a balanced class. In every MMO there will be classes that are built more towards solo capabilities (like Thief in this game), and classes that are more supportive.

I view the Necro’s ability to spam blind and chill in a large area for 20 seconds while doubling your HP as a game-changer for havoc or zerg fights. I view a Necro’s ability to pop into Shroud and instantly obtain what amounts to a second HP bar, in addition to a good source of DPS, to be very powerful and useful for many Necro builds. Necro’s design is around having higher survivability than other casters – now a D/D ele or even a Mesmer with a bunker build could be comparable, of course. People should not discount the Necro’s ability to improve their team as evidence of their strength. In DAoC, were Druids, Clerics & Healers weak because they werent as good as stealthers in killing folks 1v1? No. In GW2 the fact that most Necro builds are better suited as a disabling and supportive DPS role equally does not mean they are weak.

This post is already too long, and the longer you make posts, the less likely people are to read them. In short, I enjoy my Necro; have found a couple of builds that work well; and dont think they need any assistance. If you disagree, so be it. It’s a video game and an online forum.

Talentless.5708:

“In short, I enjoy my Necro; have found a couple of builds that work well.”

I think we all have found a couple of niche builds that work well in limited circumstances...outside of those pigeonholed scenarios we certainly do need help.

@Kyskythyn.6471

The thread was written to provide a compilation of pitfalls from a view where the necro is compared with all other classes, as a whole. It was also designed to bring to light that due to many of these issues, the necro as a class, has less performance at the highest levels, than all of the other classes.

The downside is, several individuals decided it would be more productive to post the typical; L2P, Necro is fine, I’m amazing on my necro you all are terrible, and other rhetoric. And it was getting old rather quickly. Which was never what this thread was about.

It’s about performance of a class based on game mechanics, not about opinion or skill.

Take Talentless’ comment as an example, “Necro’s design is around having higher survivability than other casters”. And no, I’m not picking on you, i’m actually returning to the topic of the thread.

There is a difference between design, and mechanics. At a glance, that statement is true, but it is also false. Does having higher starting hitpoints equate to having higher survivability? No.

Survivability is determined by so much more than hitpoints.

• It’s determined by avoidance, and the ability of a class to maintain avoidance throughout combat
• It’s determined by healing, and the amount a health per second a class can regain over time
• It’s determined by damage reduction or mitigation
• It’s determined by movement, and the ability to extend outside your opponent’s reach/LOS
• It’s determined by utility, and the ability to adapt to your opponent, and to counter
• It’s determined by anti-CC and escape mechanisms
• It’s determined by CC and extending combat

Now, back to that comment, “Necro’s design is around having higher survivability than other casters”… When comparing the necro to just the other 2 casters, can you tell me with absolute belief, that the necro (under any build variation) actually has higher survivability?

Design != mechanics
Survivability != hitpoints

Survivability does not = hitpoints… no one suggests that. Even using your bullet points, I would advise that the Necro is perfectly suited for survival as I stated. If you’re too ignorant to listen to advice that doesnt fit into your idea that the class sucks, that is your problem, but dont turn this around to being my problem when you made a post whining about the class.

You have a different opinion. You are welcome to keep posting your opinion on these forums in hopes that Anet makes the class OP. Some of us dont want that to ever be the case. If you dont like your class, and dont want to experiment with builds that would help you, try something else… a different class or game perhaps.

Oldbugga.7029:

Talentless.5708:

“In short, I enjoy my Necro; have found a couple of builds that work well.”

I think we all have found a couple of niche builds that work well in limited circumstances...outside of those pigeonholed scenarios we certainly do need help.

Please dont quote me if you plan to pretend I say something different.

In short, I enjoy my Necro; have found a couple of builds that work well in almost every situation…

There’s an interesting conversation to be had there though. How would you consider the survivability of a Necromancer to compare to other caster classes? Or even just other classes in general?

I’m personally a little frustrated by it, because while the Necromancer has excellent condition control, they don’t seem to have any real control over direct damage. There is no Block, no temporary invincibilities, not even a consistent way to get Vigor for more dodging.

Of course, the Necromancer also has a huge amount of health, (both base and in the form of Death Shroud) but I’m still annoyed that while Mesmer and Elementalist (and most classes of the game) have very solid active defense options and can build to emphasize dodging or blocking skills, Necromancers are essentially forced to take the hit. Taking the hit probably means less for a Necromancer than an Elementalist or Mesmer, but I still mourn the absence of that defense type from the class.

@Talentless

Do you have anything outside of vague rhetoric to substantiate your comments? Cold, hard, facts? Not “I have a super secret build that works wonders in most situations” If you’re not going to discuss the topic, or actually prove your comments with abilities/stats/builds/screenshots/ect, then there’s the door. Have a nice day.

I already know you have nothing. Post your build(s). I dare you. Prove so many others wrong, and yourself right. Back up your claims. We both know you’re not going to, because you can’t.

No one is whining, though many are frustrated, and no one is requesting the necro be bumped up to OP status. That’s just you, in a failed attempt to deflect. Please stay on topic.

Here has been your list of advice, please let me know if I’ve missed anything.

• Depends on the thief build. P/D ones I just ignore
• Given that two of my favorite Necro builds include plenty of SR, a thief wont be able to kill you quick enough before he/she gets scared.
• think outside the box
• spam blind and chill in a large area for 20 seconds
• pop into Shroud and instantly obtain what amounts to a second HP bar
• I enjoy my Necro; have found a couple of builds that work well; and dont think they need any assistance

So you ignore thieves; and putting points into SR somehow causes thieves to be scared; learn something new every day. So, you mentioned spamming blind/chill for 20s, I actually thought that one made sense, and thanks for letting everyone know what happens when they hit F1. As for that last comment.. that little gem is signature worthy.

@Softspoken

That’s the point I’m hoping players begin to see.

Take a direct comparison between necro and ele. The base hitpoints for an ele @ 80 is 10,805 while the necro comes in @ 18,372. That is a difference of 7,567 in favor of the necro. But what about the other areas?

Avoidance

• Ele wins by a clear margin. Multiple means of gaining vigor, can maintain 100% uptime during combat. End result is twice the avoidance of a neco

Healing

• Ele wins by a clear margin. The culmination of water abilities, Signet of Restoration, and regen uptime dwarfs the necro vamp+healing.

Damage reduction/mitigation

• Necro wins here, but it’s very close. DS is essentially a mitigation ability, and if you go for a well build that traits protection, those can add up. However, the Ele does have more natural uptime of protection than the necro does.

Movement

• Ele… no contest.

Utility and adaptation

• Ele wins here. Necro utilities are extremely focused and generally regarded as weak. The ability to manipulate conditions and boons is only useful on a condition build, and are extremely lacking on a power build. Ele has a sold addition of survivability built into their utilities without relying on specific builds.

Anti-CC and escape

• Ele hands down winner. Necro has one 30 pt trait and lack luster “breaks stun” abilities. Necro has no means of escaping combat.

CC and extending combat

• Necro wins here, but it’s almost solely based on 1 elite ability.

So the questions are, how many extra dodges does it take to make up the 7,567 hitpoints? How much healing to be equal the extra hitpoints? How many fights can be determined by moving and LOS? What about invincibility to counter burst? and so on…

There’s too many areas where the necro doesn’t compete. And none of these take skill into consideration. Skill doesn’t generate additional dodges from nothingness. Skill doesn’t give a class movement capabilities.

Condition damage doesn’t do enough damage when most classes can wtf pawn you in seconds, thief for example, warrior and guardians can remove it and adding 5 stack or less of bleeds won’t scratch them. Bunker build is useless since you won’y kill anyone but will soak enough damage to stay a live a little longer then the other class can just spam their skills. Glass cannon..ha beside dagger main hand we do kitten damage with full zerker gear.’

This is from WvW experience.

Oh and did i mention how specing for vampiric is useless or going minion master is useless?

and btw i can show you a screenshot where a thief did 20k damage in seconds with haste and assassin signet.

Gw2 balancing team at work here people.

Quillixx.7034:

@Softspoken

That’s the point I’m hoping players begin to see.

Take a direct comparison between necro and ele. The base hitpoints for an ele @ 80 is 10,805 while the necro comes in @ 18,372. That is a difference of 7,567 in favor of the necro. But what about the other areas?

-snip-

So the questions are, how many extra dodges does it take to make up the 7,567 hitpoints? How much healing to be equal the extra hitpoints? How many fights can be determined by moving and LOS? What about invincibility to counter burst? and so on…

I just want to make clear that I’m not certain the Necromancer has less of a defense than an Elementalist, just that I wish they had more of what I call Active Defense options. (Things to encourage dodge, for example.) Death Shroud alone is probably worth a full health bar, changing those 7,500~ life points to around a 25,900~ life point advantage.

Granted, health and dodges are incomparables. There are times that a dodge will do you more good than a solid chunk of health, (Incoming spike damage!) and times that more health is worth more than a dodge (Bleeding a lot, but I already used my cleanse!)

Softspoken.2410:

I just want to make clear that I’m not certain the Necromancer has less of a defense than an Elementalist, just that I wish they had more of what I call Active Defense options. (Things to encourage dodge, for example.) Death Shroud alone is probably worth a full health bar, changing those 7,500~ life points to around a 25,900~ life point advantage.

Granted, health and dodges are incomparables. There are times that a dodge will do you more good than a solid chunk of health, (Incoming spike damage!) and times that more health is worth more than a dodge (Bleeding a lot, but I already used my cleanse!)

True, except that conditions can and are cleansed too frequently. I personally believe that the abundance of condition cleanses, worse AoE condition cleanses, was one of the bigger lapses in design that screwed Necromancers. We can deal alot of damage over-time with bleeds, BiP alone can stack up to over 2.5k+ damage without any condition damage, but does that ever happen against players? Almost never.

I will agree that Necro needs a big re-evaluation of its traits and some skill cooldowns reduced/tweaked.

However Im going to have to disagree that the profession as a whole is weak and/or underperforming.

Necro survivability is really insane. The fact that I can have 20k HP with 0 vitality on my gear, and max out toughness with plenty of stat points left for damage is awesome. Not only that, but the same trait line that increases crit damage also increases our secondary HP pool!

Yes I curse at my moniter sometimes when a zerg catches me in wvw because I have 0 burst mobility or other escapes, or I own some thief/ele and they just teleport away. But I believe that to add instant mobility via teleport or leap would make this already durable class a little too powerful. Perhaps if Dark path didnt require a target, that would be fine since you dont really teleport all that far.

I also do not agree that Necro dps is low. My dagger auto attack chains in dps gear match those of my thief in dps gear… almost, but then, thats to be expected. The main difference is we lack burst like backstab or 100 blades. But from a raw damage viewpoint, I notice similar loss in dps on both of my 80’s when changing from dps gear to toughness gear, I dont believe Necros are somehow gimped. Axe does suck and needs a boost.

I dont really care about not having Vigor on my Necro, and my thief has 0 ways to generate protection for himself. I would take prot any day over vigor.

I dont think we need more avoidance, whether its from evades or immunities. I do think Spectral armor would be 1minute, and grant a short stability.

Necro has a lot of control/utility that I dont think is being considered for its worth. Corrupt Boon/spinal shivers is amazing against ele’s/guardians, and useful against any prof. Wells are extremely useful, however I personally think they deserve a shorter cooldown. Transferring our conditions to a foe on such a short cooldown as dagger4 and staff4 is also amazing imo.

The main issue I have with Necro’s in GW2 is that sooooo many of our skills dont work properly and/or are bugged. Also, many of our traits are incredibly underpowered compared to other professions, and should be buffed. I mean, compare the spite grandmaster minor trait to like, any other professions grandmaster traits(the thief and warrior ones are crazy good in comparison).

To summarize my thoughts: I think that once our traits are balanced, and our skills work properly(mostly projectile pathing and minion AI), the Necro should be in a good place. I also think one of the reasons people think Necro’s suck is simply because currently Eelementalists are a little too powerful/flexible, and in pve, Ele’s/Warriors/Guardians are lightyears ahead of the other professions power wise, which also needs to be fixed.

Good post Stx ^ ^

Just as a question: Have you tried running 30 Spite with Axe Training?

I agree about the traits… I have trouble convincing myself to put more than 15 in Curses for almost any build because the trait abilities are… meh – Disclaimer: I dont play a condi necro, so I dont care about condition damage. I focus on the disabling conditions and mixing vulnerability with might.

If you want some fun along those lines… run 30/10/0/0/30 for a bit. I’ve even run around with spectral wall and spectral grab if you’re soloing… easy way to get instant 25 stacks of vul on your target and axe #2 then rips em up.

I actually have tried 30spite10curse30reaping, and its not really my style. Even with traits supporting it, axe damage doesnt match dagger damage.

Recently I have found a build/gear combination that lets me play a hybrid in wvw pvp.
25 curses 25 death 20 blood.

2900 atk rating, 45% crit, 700 condition dmg, 2900 armor, 22000HP.

Its a really flexible playstyle that can go toe to toe with anything in melee, and spread conditions like a scepter user.

I switch out weapons and utilities all the time, I really havent found anything I cant take down. Even d/d eles melt pretty fast when I switch to d/focus+scepter/d, add corrupt boon, gives me plenty of control/stripping and condition manipulation to fend them off. cant always catch them, but i usually go by the logic that if you force someone to retreat, youve won the fight.

I only started my necro and got him up to lvl 40, only ran PvE so far, and run a condition spec. While I haven’t ran D/D or Axe much, I do run S/D and staff quite a bit. I have 4 other char’s (2 80’s and 2 over 70), so this is just going to be an initial observation of the class so far…imo PvE wise.

S/D- So far for me, this has been a great combo. Am able to kite 4-6+ mobs at least 5 lvl’s higher than me and kill them all without working up much of a sweat. Killing Vet’s at my lvl or 1-2 higher is also rather easy as well. Between S2 and D5, Staff 2-4, and S1 spam, I’m pretty much able to kite and kill without taking much damage. Bleed stacking and dmg at this lvl is rather amazing imo and makes for fast killing of just about anything.

Staff- While Staff 2-4 seem alright (radius seems a bit small), the fear on staff 5 seems to be a bit weak and Staff 1 feels REALLY weak. It doesn’t hit much harder than Sceptor 1, it’s travel time is slow, and unlike Sceptor 1 it doesn’t stack a bleed. Speeding up the projectile travel and either upping the dmg or adding a bleed stack to it would make it more useful than it is now.

Minions- I haven’t seen a Pet AI this bad in a LONG time. Between their ADD and lack of attacking half the time, I completely avoid using them all, minus the Flesh Golem. The only reason i use this one is that it can act like a tank when I need it, that is if it actually attacks…

Lich Form- I only really use this as an “OH ****” run away ability as it acts as a 2nd health bar. The 4 abilities seem rather lackluster and hastily thrown together.

Combo Fields/Finishers- We seem to have a decent amount of Combo Fields, but the lack of Finisher’s seems a bit off. Would like to see them add a bit more in the way of Finishers to our weapons.

Group support- Haven’t had much time to really get into this, but Condi removal seems to be our biggest function. I want to get more into this later, and I run support quite a bit on my Guard when needed.

While I think the Necro is a great bleed class, I think we’re somewhat hampered in group play when there’s more than 2 other condi classes. Anymore than this, it seems that the Stack/Duration limits, this can really hamper our overall dmg output. The lack of dmg that Staff 1 puts out on top of our bleh Lich Form abilities seems to hamper any type of Pow/Pres/Crit set up (although I need to really try this out more esp with Daggers and Axes).

Now, this is just my initial thoughts on playing a necro. I may change my mind at later lvl’s and some may disagree, but eh…it’s just an opinion.

Stx.4857:

I actually have tried 30spite10curse30reaping, and its not really my style. Even with traits supporting it, axe damage doesnt match dagger damage.

Recently I have found a build/gear combination that lets me play a hybrid in wvw pvp.
25 curses 25 death 20 blood.

2900 atk rating, 45% crit, 700 condition dmg, 2900 armor, 22000HP.

Its a really flexible playstyle that can go toe to toe with anything in melee, and spread conditions like a scepter user.

I switch out weapons and utilities all the time, I really havent found anything I cant take down. Even d/d eles melt pretty fast when I switch to d/focus+scepter/d, add corrupt boon, gives me plenty of control/stripping and condition manipulation to fend them off. cant always catch them, but i usually go by the logic that if you force someone to retreat, youve won the fight.

Good to know, I havent tried much with dagger as mainhand for a while.. think i’ll run around with that tonight.

So many people think the necromancer is the worst class in the game. I would invite all of you to watch the tutorial on this forum… It’s under “Necromancer tutorials” pinned on the top of the page. If you are not interested in class mechanics skip to the dedicated videos on each build type… after that if you still see necromancer as such a bad class…
i don’t know…

What i do know is that i’ve red a lot of your comments the past 15 minutes, and a lot of you are complaining that builds that aren’t suppose to work… aren’t working…

Nemesis.8593:

So many people think the necromancer is the worst class in the game. I would invite all of you to watch the tutorial on this forum… It’s under “Necromancer tutorials” pinned on the top of the page. If you are not interested in class mechanics skip to the dedicated videos on each build type… after that if you still see necromancer as such a bad class…
i don’t know…

What i do know is that i’ve red a lot of your comments the past 15 minutes, and a lot of you are complaining that builds that aren’t suppose to work… aren’t working…

+1.