Guild Wars 2

Shaogin.2679:

Anchoku.8142:

Shaogin, spectral traits have significant opportunity cost so I do not think of them as highly as you might. There is definitely a trade for DS and dps to use spectral traits and, without the traits, spectral skills are not attractive.

Traiting wells fits better for power builds than spectral and offers team support.

Overall, I feel like specral skills need one more little tweak for a bit more defense or offense to pay for the opportunity cost. Wall is kind of a one good trick pony but a lot of professions with similar skills have that problem. Walk or Armor are candidates for a tweak, imo.

Walk, because it can be made redundant by SoL or horn, may be the better candidate for an additional effect. Perhaps an effect that is only enabled by taking both spectral traits. The opposite of Taunt comes to mind.

Tman.6349:

Yeah and you have to spend 8 trait points into defensive lines just to get that measly 3 secs of Protection and leech 300 HPs on a 50 sec cooldown. And I’m talking about only adding 5 secs of projectile destruction to the base skill. Hardly OP. As for stacking effects on skills, one look at traited Steal and eh w/e. To get the maximum out of wells would require 12 pt investment. Two are defensive, one power based, and one condi based. I don’t really see the problem with WoD taking on this role. Unless you use condi Necro and would prefer CPC for biased reasons, then I could understand that and am fine with it. WoD just seems better thematically and it’s not very popular really.

It’s not about how much you have to trait for it, it’s about what you can get if you did trait for it. Sure it may not be practical, but the possibilities are still there. Taking Spectral skills may not be as popular in pve, but in pvp they are highly used. It would be over the top to add reflection to them from a pvp standpoint. Wells are in the same category, may not be practical to trait for, but you can. And wells currently see plenty of use in all game modes for Necros. The point is to stop overbuffing skills that already perform well and start making less valued skills more practical. And no Tman, I play power Necro.

So what you are saying is, Arenanet should continue balancing around PvP only where necros still are kitten anyway if you meet anyone with 5 braincells, so yeah let’s not buff the worst PvE profession because a mediocre profession as the necromancer does crap at best in PvP.

Makes sense.

Bhawb.7408:

I don’t think lowering the CD is necessarily the answer (though a slightly reduced one might be appropriate), I’d much prefer it be really strong and have a long duration but have a “cost” of not being able to use it associated. Dropping the CD is certainly a power boost, but it is also one that dumbs down skill usage, and also limits how strong skills can be per-use.

The thing is, it’s already quite good at what it’s supposed to do: provide good defense against foes in an area. That is even something that Necros sorely need.

But the cooldown is just way too long to be useful. While remaining a well, I’m not sure how much function could really be added to make it strong enough to use without making some of our other skills obsolete.

I agree for Corrosive Poison Cloud. It could use the boon, and I’ve really been loving it in spvp these days. The 12 second duration is just so good. It’s good on most maps except LoF.

Bhawb.7408:

I don’t think lowering the CD is necessarily the answer (though a slightly reduced one might be appropriate), I’d much prefer it be really strong and have a long duration but have a “cost” of not being able to use it associated. Dropping the CD is certainly a power boost, but it is also one that dumbs down skill usage, and also limits how strong skills can be per-use.

Nah, I’d rather have it up more often. 50 sec cd is dumb the uptime on blind from black powder vs. WoD is not even close.

And the thing is, BP’s radius difference is mitigated if you have a guardian/mesmer to pull the mobs into it.

It is true that for example in PvP WoD’s radius is an advantage, but Black Powder can be used for an easy guaranteed stomp every single time. Or to deny melee range effectiveness to someone.

All the wells in general should have cd’s no longer than 25 sec, especially in PvE.

And quite frankly for taking up a utility slot, Spoj is right in that it should do more. Glyph of Storms can either stack vulnerability, do extra aoe damage, or aoe blind.

It’s a matter of the value of the utility meriting the sacrifice of precious utility slots.

Take lightning spirit for example, why is it the first spirit rangers will forgo? Because swiftness procs are not really worth the sacrifice of a utility slot compared to 7% extra damage or the protection or in the case of spvp the burning.

The problem is ALL the utility of a necromancer is concentrated in those wells, because the weaponskills themselves do NOTHING for the group. Playing my ele or engineer, I got myriad fields I can set down to my groups benefit.

Look at D/F or Staff ele, I can set down anaoe chill field, 2 water fields, one of which applies regen and clears conditions, I can do a line of warding, a ranged root with a blast finisher on earth 2, an aoe CC stun field and a knockback on air+ aoe swiftness on the same cd as Locust Swarm which is just single target. And then there’s the fire fields. Projectile deflection for the group.

Same goes for guardian or mesmer. Guardian has roots and pulls and blocks for the group. Mesmer at least has the offhand focus for some utility with a pull/projectile deflection and some cc to take off defiance stacks on the greatsword or use illusionary wave to ghetto push mobs into a spot as well. Warrior has an aoe cc on mace from his axe/mace set, with easy high vulnerability application, or he can bring his warhorn to cure the party of movement impairment and grant them vigor.

But necromancer, and to a slightly lesser extent rangers, have no real utility built into their weaponskills. And this is why if the utility will not be given to their weaponskills, then their utility slots need to have condensed utility greater than what other classes bring in their utility slots to make up for the emptiness of group utility in their weapons.

I know everyone wants all of our skills to have nearly nonexistant CDs, I’m saying it isn’t necessarily the best idea from a game health point of view. A 24s CD WoD is insanely strong, even if they changed nothing to how it works now (and it does need a field change).

It would be strong, but would it force other skills out of use? I don’t think so. Corrupt Boon, for example, would still be locked onto skill bars. CPC would likely be replaced by WoD, but few don’t agree that skill needs a bit of extra utility anyway. Other skills, I just don’t see getting replaced.

So, even with a short cooldown, I don’t see it making it onto a lot of skill bars.

Bhawb.7408:

I know everyone wants all of our skills to have nearly nonexistant CDs, I’m saying it isn’t necessarily the best idea from a game health point of view. A 24s CD WoD is insanely strong, even if they changed nothing to how it works now (and it does need a field change).

WHICH IS WHY I SAID PVE.

You know, the much larger chunk of content likely the majority of people are playing outside WvW. Yet all the balance we see seems to come from the spvp/wvw side instead of splitting the kitten skill balancing.

Except in PvE it would most likely do better as a long duration long(ish) CD. kitten CD with a 10s duration still gives it a high uptime, but allows it to be far stronger per cast. Its not about crowding out other skills, but if two skills are equal in power but one is high CD high effect and the other low CD low effect the first makes for a much more interesting play situation to me.

I think instead of having the wall reflect, have it destroy projectiles and turn them into life force. That would be a lot of fun and not as overpowered as full reflect. Having poison cloud destroy projectiles too would be nice.

Bhawb.7408:

Except in PvE it would most likely do better as a long duration long(ish) CD. kitten CD with a 10s duration still gives it a high uptime, but allows it to be far stronger per cast. Its not about crowding out other skills, but if two skills are equal in power but one is high CD high effect and the other low CD low effect the first makes for a much more interesting play situation to me.

Not really. There are far more thrash pack pulls than you think, and a long cd only lessens the value of the utility if you only use it for a tiny fraction of the run.

It only gets worse when you consider fractals when mob packs come in intervals that make the well kind of pointless as a 10 sec duration skill because the lengthened duration virtually does nothing for you when those very mobs are dying in under 5 seconds anyways.

Blind fields are not used to protect against sustained damage, it’s about protecting against getting spiked down by 3-4 cultists who just leaped at you for 5-6k damage each, and then they shortly die when they miss their burst and more come in shortly after. Same applies for Urban fractal, really.

spoj.9672:

PvE has a heavy reliance on projectile defence. Not having any is a major disadvantage to the class. Especially when you consider things like orrian turrets in arah, Mai trin, Imbued shaman and just about every trash mob group in the game. :P

Thats only naming a few obvious examples. There are literally projectile attacks everywhere in game. Some which you would not even normally associate as projectile attacks. Yet despite that they can be reflected and blocked with projectile defence. One really obscure example is the grenth wraiths life drain attack in arah p4. There are also melee attacks on some mobs which can be blocked with reflects.

Only issue with that Anet has been known of just making attack ignore reflect/destruction if/when it gets viewed as a problem. Reflection really should just be reworked to function similarly to retaliation in which the stats of the reflector is used for the damage as to remove gimmicks that completely favor some profession over others.

Bran.7425:

spoj.9672:

PvE has a heavy reliance on projectile defence. Not having any is a major disadvantage to the class. Especially when you consider things like orrian turrets in arah, Mai trin, Imbued shaman and just about every trash mob group in the game. :P

Thats only naming a few obvious examples. There are literally projectile attacks everywhere in game. Some which you would not even normally associate as projectile attacks. Yet despite that they can be reflected and blocked with projectile defence. One really obscure example is the grenth wraiths life drain attack in arah p4. There are also melee attacks on some mobs which can be blocked with reflects.

Only issue with that Anet has been known of just making attack ignore reflect/destruction if/when it gets viewed as a problem. Reflection really should just be reworked to function similarly to retaliation in which the stats of the reflector is used for the damage as to remove gimmicks that completely favor some profession over others.

All the people in the group are in berzerker/assassin stats so I’m not sure how that would change the damage…. even if damage where not even reflected back at the mob the fact that you’re defending against something like an Orrian Hunter’s bouncing axe that nukes people for 6k+ damage per bounce would still make it so classes are favored.

The harpy fractal would be no different, or Mossman, or the amount of mobs and bosses with lethal projectiles. The damage from reflection is really the icing on the cake, the not getting downed in 2-3 hits from a projectiles is the actual motivator.

King Kraken.2863:

I think instead of having the wall reflect, have it destroy projectiles and turn them into life force. That would be a lot of fun and not as overpowered as full reflect. Having poison cloud destroy projectiles too would be nice.

Good point if reflect is too strong. Some projectile defense is more than enough for me in this time. All these pew pew rangers are kittening me off :P

Here’s my thing……for a group of abilities called “Spectral” why is it that none of them make you immune to projectiles? like perhaps giving you a form in which the projectiles pass right through you, doing 0 damage? The CDs could be shorter on some of these as well, like spectral walk. I think spectral wall however should have it’s……size increased? I’d say bigger a radius but it’s not exactly a circle now is it….oh well….SMILE!

No but you can get my infinite supply of no’s also available in capital letters.

Do not power creep this utility, give it to CPC it’s almost “useful” just like SoL needs a stun break.

Zenith.7301:

All the people in the group are in berzerker/assassin stats so I’m not sure how that would change the damage…. even if damage where not even reflected back at the mob the fact that you’re defending against something like an Orrian Hunter’s bouncing axe that nukes people for 6k+ damage per bounce would still make it so classes are favored.

The harpy fractal would be no different, or Mossman, or the amount of mobs and bosses with lethal projectiles. The damage from reflection is really the icing on the cake, the not getting downed in 2-3 hits from a projectiles is the actual motivator.

The mob have inflated stat just to have a chance because the behavioral design is generally poor (see how the Jungle Wurm in Caledon had to be adjusted as it would could kill itself with a reflected attack).

As for wanted access to it I can understand that, but how angry would you be if they gave you addition ways to deal with projectiles, then suddenly there are nearly no projectiles or those that used are not subject to the reflection/absorption.