Guild Wars 2

Hey guys

I’ve been thinking about making a necromancer alt for quite a while now and so I was wondering, how are they doing at the moment?

Are they fun/versatile for leveling and how well do they fare in dungeons/WvWvW/PvP? Would you recommend me making a necro if I say I love the idea of being a minion master because I heard minions suck, is that true?

Thanks in advance!

Minions don’t suck, I can vouch for how strong they are at pure bunker builds, Bas can vouch for heavier damage MM; atm they are a very strong build in the right situations.

Necros are absolutely fine in every part of the game. WvW we have strong AoE damage/support, PvP we are great at just never dieing, and if you never die, then your opponent auto loses. PvE we are awesome too.

You won’t be able to bring minions into every situation, but they work well; plus they are cute as heck.

The only thing we have, and this will frustrate you a little, is we have (to my knowledge) the most bugs of any class. It will take a while to fix them, but they will be fixed, and in the mean time we are still strong and can only get stronger. Also be prepared for a challenging (in a fun way) class.

Minions are perfectly fine for leveling and some PVE encounters. They suffer horribly in AOE fights and WvW. They are somewhat more responsive now people say (I haven’t tested), but still not quite up to snuff with their response rate.

Really they are fine in all pvp/pve aspects, though not really the best at anything. Depending on if you run a power or condition build, you are likely somewhere in the middle of capabilities (higher with conditions). The only area I would not suggest necro for would be roaming. They tend to do very poorly against zergs (in a small group), but fair fine in zerg vs zerg.

All in all I enjoy the class, but split most of my time fairly equally with a mesmer. Having no access to even a single target break means the 2 spamming zerker thieves come for you every time. One is easy enough to handle, but 2 or 3 are nearly impossible to deal with.

That being said, you will get gloom and doom from half the forum, and you will get told they are the best class ever from the other side. So just average it out

Bhawb.7408:

Minions don’t suck, I can vouch for how strong they are at pure bunker builds, Bas can vouch for heavier damage MM; atm they are a very strong build in the right situations.

Necros are absolutely fine in every part of the game. WvW we have strong AoE damage/support, PvP we are great at just never dieing, and if you never die, then your opponent auto loses. PvE we are awesome too.

You won’t be able to bring minions into every situation, but they work well; plus they are cute as heck.

The only thing we have, and this will frustrate you a little, is we have (to my knowledge) the most bugs of any class. It will take a while to fix them, but they will be fixed, and in the mean time we are still strong and can only get stronger. Also be prepared for a challenging (in a fun way) class.

Quite honestly there are few “bugs” still effecting the class other than the focus and a few tooltip errors. I have DS2 bug out all the time, which I can’t explain, but most of our big game breaking bugs were fixed, or have been acknowledged as working as intended (silently or audibly).

Good to hear, I had stopped playing right as they rolled out a lot of content, so I’m sure I missed a lot in there.

I had played necro since release. I got full exotic on her and even bought her a commander tag. But I find necro highly stressful and very frustrating at times. Yes there are moments when my necro shrines. But those times are far in between. Most of the time I had to work much harder to get so little done.

I find myself rage quitting and rage afking a lot nowadays. They are a combination of a few things. One is not being able to hunt down an enemy that I would have no problem killing on my thief. Another is not getting away in a situation when I would easily have escaped on my thief. I think about all the money I spent on her that would be better spend on another character. But I am too committed to her right now to switch. I think about all the time I spent designing her traits and items, that all leads to nothing. Often I just feel so useless that I just rage quit or rage afk.

If you do not handle stress and frustrations well, stay away from the necromancer. Necro is all about enduring though your disappointments and do the best that you can.

Bhawb.7408:

Minions don’t suck, I can vouch for how strong they are at pure bunker builds, Bas can vouch for heavier damage MM; atm they are a very strong build in the right situations.

Necros are absolutely fine in every part of the game. WvW we have strong AoE damage/support, PvP we are great at just never dieing, and if you never die, then your opponent auto loses. PvE we are awesome too.

You won’t be able to bring minions into every situation, but they work well; plus they are cute as heck.

The only thing we have, and this will frustrate you a little, is we have (to my knowledge) the most bugs of any class. It will take a while to fix them, but they will be fixed, and in the mean time we are still strong and can only get stronger. Also be prepared for a challenging (in a fun way) class.

Sounds awesome, thank you so much!

My main is an engineer so I know everything about buggy/broken mechanics anyways

As Rennoko said, you will run into a lot of players who consistently complain and advocate that Necromancers are terrible and need lots and lots and lots of buffs to even be viable. The truth is, they aren’t perfect and it’s arguable that some of their class mechanics are fairly questionable at the moment, particularly Dark Shroud and Minions. However, most players are attempting to turn the Necromancer into a class that it isn’t.

In my opinion, Necromancers are caught in a strange position in the current DPS driven environment simply because Necromancers don’t have a high enough burst output at their core to truly make a difference compared to most classes. It’s obvious that the developers are pushing for Necromancers to build for condition but the issue being is that it seems every class in the game has a way to remove conditions at an alarming rate. Obviously, condition builds suffer quite a bit in terms of reliability, particularly in tPvP where condition removal is a must if you wish to win on a consistent basis.

That being said, if you want to judge the Necromancer’s potential as a class you need to analyze it’s strengths. The Necromancer has, next to the Warrior, the highest base health pool of any class and as a caster class it benefits more from Toughness than medium or heavy armor wearing classes. DPS wise the Necromancer has one of the lowest base attack and falls behind a few classes in terms of condition damage. In a nutshell, the Necromancer excels at tanking targets.

It’s a matter of perspective but I think the Necromancer is doing quite well for itself but most players want a burst driven class and are upset when their Necromancer can’t hit for 4k. I play a very resilient Dagger/Focus/Staff Necromancer and I have made my traits center on healing both myself and my allies at an alarming rate while still maintaining a pleasant amount of DPS.

Only bugs that really affect my gameplay still are DS 2 bugging out. Though I did have it work hilariously on a boss the other day. I used it to close a gap after diving away from an aoe, and it ended up pulling the boss to me.

The randomness of Focus 4 is a bit of a headache. I actually dropped dagger because it is so hard to stay withing 100m of someone who moves that I figure it’s not worth it.

DS dropping on stuns and kb’s if used before the kb, but it’s usable after.

I think there are a few spectral skill bugs and one or two signets, but we are way better off than Rangers and Elementalist who have a littany of talents and utilities taht don’t work correctly.

First of all ignore Bhawb and Bas, they are probably some russian duo that live just for trolling around the forums with stupidity.

For fractals and explo dungeons on a general scale in comparison to other classes
Rabid condition damage Necro: 6/10
Condition control necro with hybrid itemization: 9/10
DS based p/v/t build going for utility (Life transfusion, invogration, plague form, etc):10/10
Pure direct damage crit necro: 5/10
Minion Master: 1/10 (you might survive but chances are you are ruining your team
Minion Bomber: 3/10 (works… kinda…)
Well Necro: 8/10 (your team can go into higher level fractals with 5 less agony with no problems since aoe heals you can dish out in timed bursts are pretty strong, you can keep up protection on allies in 9/10 of the important cases and the aoe blind is a “kitten you” to mobs)
Siphon necro: 4/10 (works but would be better of with another build)

Leveling is insane fun no matter the build if you go with aoe and group mobs and then watch em explode, minion aggro pulls are ususally a nice thing then and probably second best explorers by DS combined with spectral walk (jumps), well of darkness (no more veterans stopping you from getting a skill challenge) and flesh wurm (port back to a safe place).

1. I ain’t no stinkin’ commie, the only red I like is smothered with blue and white like a bald eagle’s baby in its Freedom nest.

2. Please enlighten me on how we don’t contribute to these forums in a meaningful way; especially when the median post is “wtf gais, necros suck, I want full boon upkeep, 50k crits, full condition stacks on enemies 25/7, with 14k armor”.

Andele.1306:

First of all ignore Bhawb and Bas, they are probably some russian duo that live just for trolling around the forums with stupidity.

For fractals and explo dungeons on a general scale in comparison to other classes
Rabid condition damage Necro: 6/10
Condition control necro with hybrid itemization: 9/10
DS based p/v/t build going for utility (Life transfusion, invogration, plague form, etc):10/10
Pure direct damage crit necro: 5/10
Minion Master: 1/10 (you might survive but chances are you are ruining your team
Minion Bomber: 3/10 (works… kinda…)
Well Necro: 8/10 (your team can go into higher level fractals with 5 less agony with no problems since aoe heals you can dish out in timed bursts are pretty strong, you can keep up protection on allies in 9/10 of the important cases and the aoe blind is a “kitten you” to mobs)
Siphon necro: 4/10 (works but would be better of with another build)

Leveling is insane fun no matter the build if you go with aoe and group mobs and then watch em explode, minion aggro pulls are ususally a nice thing then and probably second best explorers by DS combined with spectral walk (jumps), well of darkness (no more veterans stopping you from getting a skill challenge) and flesh wurm (port back to a safe place).

I stopped reading when you said “Condition control necro with hybrid itemization: 10/10”.

And you said Bas and Bhawb were trolling. SMH.

I see the incorrect opinion inquisition is in fine form today. You guys probably actually believe “Not perfect” is an honest evaluation of the class.

OP, here’s how to evaluate the truthfulness of the assertions on this thread:

You can get 3 whole seconds of protection, per well, each on a 32-48 cooldown timer (traited). Blind doesn’t function on bosses. How is this described?

“Well Necro: 8/10 … you can keep up protection on allies in 9/10 of the important cases and the aoe blind is a “kitten you” to mobs.”

You might want to consider taking people from the necro forum with a grain of salt. We have a group of people who’re convinced that they’re not getting dev attention because they haven’t silenced enough naysayers. For a more honest answer, ask another class forum if they fear us as an enemy or favor us at their side in a dungeon above other professions.

Manticore Five.9867:

For a more honest answer, ask another class forum if they fear us as an enemy or favor us at their side in a dungeon above other professions.

I’d take this a step further, if you want really unbiased views. Go ask your guild what they think. Forums tend to have the extremes of both sides, people who really love the class, or people who really hate it, and every class forum will be like that. Your guild, however, is more apt to give you a decent opinion.

I’d also suggest you ask people after you play with them in a situation. For example, do a dungeon run, then talk to the people and see how they liked having a necro with them.

That’s even better advice, Bhawb. Thanks.

There’s certainly going to be a knowledge problem asking guildies, but I don’t think it would be worse than the bias gap between guildies and forumers.

I like Necromancers, but compared to other professions necromancers feel like they’re missing something or weren’t designed in the same coherent fashion as most of the other professions.

This isn’t to say that necromancers are bad so much as it is to say many of the other professions feel much more polished, especially in regards to their profession mechanics.

The first time I rolled a necromancer, I never really felt compelled to use Death Shroud, where as with mesmer I’m always shattering, or an elementalist I’m always switching attunements, or with a engineer I’m always whipping out my tool belt.

This is my second time playing necromancer, but despite specing fully into DS and trying to built my character around it, a lot of them it’s just easier and more effective to just stay out of DS and hit things with my daggers.

The long and short of it is; Necromancer is good, it’s fun, but I don’t think it’s necessarily Guild Wars 2 good or as fun as it could be, and it’s frustrating that the game has been out some five months now and Anet hasn’t displayed much movement in the direction of changing it.

Necromancy 4 undeath yo!

Bhawb.7408:

Manticore Five.9867:

For a more honest answer, ask another class forum if they fear us as an enemy or favor us at their side in a dungeon above other professions.

I’d take this a step further, if you want really unbiased views. Go ask your guild what they think. Forums tend to have the extremes of both sides, people who really love the class, or people who really hate it, and every class forum will be like that. Your guild, however, is more apt to give you a decent opinion.

I’d also suggest you ask people after you play with them in a situation. For example, do a dungeon run, then talk to the people and see how they liked having a necro with them.

Yeah don’t ask the dungeon question unless you are with friends. The general opinion of necros in dungeons from the populace is we are trash. And in certain fractal fights (in a condition build) we are.

Looking at a cross section of your guild really isn’t great advice either. The problem is people will take the path of least resistance, and the necro is most certainly NOT the path of least resistance. My guild is full of necro alts, but only 2-3 people who sort of main necro. While we have dozens of thief/guardian/ele/mesmer mains.

Granted we are a WvW guild…. but the point still stands.

I will say it again and again, that the problems with this class are always around ease of use of the skills – fluidity, effective overall power in the hands of an average player, “fun” factor.

1. Easy to use and fluid skills – No not really, most skills have cast times, and most utilities have cast times. It is hard to “react” when you need 3/4 to 1.5 seconds to retalitate (outside of DS/DS3). Its very easy to step on your own toes when trying to land a combo and swap your weapon too quickly, dodge roll a cast, interrupt your own cast by turning past the 180 degree line. The skills/class are very unforgiving if you misuse skills.

2. Overall power in the hands of a moderate player – Passable, but not good. An average player is going to have a very hard time dealing with burst classes that attack them on a necro, and even worse time trying to fight anyone with target breaks. I get that the vast majority of forum folks understand how to deal with a zerker thief, but the general necro public doesn’t. Without a target break, there is no OH NO button for us. DS is just a delay/panic tactic for most moderate players.

3. Fun factor – Here necro wins in my opinion. The class skills and what it can do are pretty cool in their intent and effects. Minions are cool, and many of the utilities are cool. Fear is fun, and its nice having it available all the time. Marks are enjoyable and easy to land, very moderate player friendly.

So what keeps the necro numbers down out in WvW? Its 1 and 2. When you can roll a class that can deal 18k damage with 3 key strokes, the average player is going to do that, instead of the necro which might take 2-3 dozen key strokes to deal that same damage. Not saying necros should deal 18k in 3 hits, but just pointing out why the class isn’t popular.

To expand on what Rennoko said above regarding WvW, it should be noted that the necromancer isn’t designed to win, it’s designed to make sure your opponents don’t win. It is full of ways to say “No, you don’t do that.” However, this playstyle is not as popular as the “I will melt your face” one. Hence, the opinions you get may be skewed.

Most of the people saying the necro is horrid try to use it for the “melt face” playstyle. Most that say it’s great (though could use some bug fixes and buffs to a couple of skills that currently never see use) are of the “no you don’t” playstyle.

By bug fixes, I mean improvements on minion AI, fixing the death shroud issues that popped up with this last patch, and making Corrupt Boon not fail for no reason whatsoever. A couple others, but these are the big ones right now. The skills that need to be buffed (in my mind) are Spectral Armor (needs something more to justify such a long cooldown) and Signet of Spite (ditto).

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

To expand on what Rennoko said above regarding WvW, it should be noted that the necromancer isn’t designed to win, it’s designed to make sure your opponents don’t win. It is full of ways to say “No, you don’t do that.” However, this playstyle is not as popular as the “I will melt your face” one. Hence, the opinions you get may be skewed.

Most of the people saying the necro is horrid try to use it for the “melt face” playstyle. Most that say it’s great (though could use some bug fixes and buffs to a couple of skills that currently never see use) are of the “no you don’t” playstyle.

By bug fixes, I mean improvements on minion AI, fixing the death shroud issues that popped up with this last patch, and making Corrupt Boon not fail for no reason whatsoever. A couple others, but these are the big ones right now. The skills that need to be buffed (in my mind) are Spectral Armor (needs something more to justify such a long cooldown) and Signet of Spite (ditto).

Agree with this.
From a tpvp perspective, Necro is not a class you take to ouright kill the opponent but to make sure you win the teamfight in the long run. Though, necros have some problems regarding mobility and survivabilty. They have no hard-escape and that is a huge drawback in tpvp. Also, the condi-removal abundance in pvp hurts necros and condi builds in general.

Overall, necro is a good class but still needs some buffs (not huge ones) to really compete in high level tpvp.
Great class on the fun side though !

Love the class, it’s my main and I can’t seem to focus on any other class long enough to level them to 80. Closest I got was a Guardian to level 64. That being said, I will say there are frustrating aspects that I suppose you could chalk up to ‘quality of life’ issues that I hope Anet get around to sooner or later.

The number of enemies that are immune fear, making our most available CC useless in certain fights. Staff Marks not effecting objects, which in turn make them useless against certain boss fights (I’m looking at you Ice Elemental in the Fractals). Then there’s the whole ‘we suck at destroying objects that make a LOT of PvE content a chore’ issue. I’ve never really liked MMing so I tend to avoid the little meatpuppets, so I wouldn’t know how they’re doing. I keep seeing mixed opinions on the Forum on whether their fixed or not, so if you go that route hope for the best but expect the worst.

Overall, I enjoy the class. I’ve never been denied a Dungeon group and nobody’s ever told me Necros are trash in one. I tend to switch between a Condition spec and P/T/V spec these days now that I got two sets of Armor/trinkets to jump between.

EDIT: Also lawled hard when I read a complaint about Necro mobility and then comparing it to a Thief of all things. Of course a Necro can’t keep up with a Theif, they’re the most mobile class in the game.

Ratphink.4751:

EDIT: Also lawled hard when I read a complaint about Necro mobility and then comparing it to a Thief of all things. Of course a Necro can’t keep up with a Theif, they’re the most mobile class in the game.

I don’t think anyone is asking for thief mobility, I think most rational people just want more than we have now, which is very little. Even some mobility we could trait into would be nice just as an option. Knowing that when you click on a necromancer, you can spam any skill you have and not even worry about re-targetting is a pretty big disadvantage.

If you have ever tried organized duels at 2v2 or 3v3 or 4v4, you will notice the necro gets focused down first every time, because it can’t break target or run away or passively heal enough to survive. Being able to trait for something other than “soak up more damage” would be nice.

Wanting more mobility is one thing. However the comparison being used (Necro vs. Theif mobility) is like comparing a 16 wheeler to a Sportscar. They’re completely different, and the truck will never be able to accelerate or tear down at the same speeds so pining over the difference is a useless gesture that gains nothing. If you like the Theifs mobility, then cool, play a theif. Just don’t go onto another classes forum and complain that other classes can’t give that kind of mobility when the class is designed to be one of if not the most mobile class in the game.

Or the disparity between the most mobile and least mobile classes could just be less severe, which I think was the point he was trying to make. Not speaking for him, just saying.

By that logic there should be some trade-off in damage (lol) or survivability to account for that disparity (or something else). Since they are possibly one of the most sustainable classes in a fight, in the top three in direct damage, in the top three in condition damage, you get where I am going with this.

Not saying thieves are OP, but I am saying they have a great toolkit for getting things done in a variety of ways, and a low enough skill cap to appeal to the average joe, with multiple valid and useful builds. Thieves are very popular for a reason, and it isn’t just because people like big critz.

Necro class philosophy is fine in my opinion, and I don’t want a major class overhaul, but like many want a few quality of life improvements to our less useful specs, and our less useful utilities, would go a long way towards adding flavor to the class.

Thieves are far from top three in condition damage, they are also the easiest to kill. Their mobility is their ownly survival tool. They are popular because they are easy to pickup, and the aesthetic is pretty cool.

The Necro has a significantly easier time in a face to face battle, and in controlling the fight after the initial attack. if you have ever fought a good theif you will notice they spend a majority of the time running away from necro’s attempting to avoid being hit.

Necro’s have middle of the road burst. High sustainable damage, high health, and a lot of slows and ways to control and hinder a player.

Thieves have high burst, low sustainable damage, high mobility, weak defense, and low health making them easily beaten.

Bas.7406:

Thieves are far from top three in condition damage, they are also the easiest to kill. Their mobility is their ownly survival tool. They are popular because they are easy to pickup, and the aesthetic is pretty cool.

The Necro has a significantly easier time in a face to face battle, and in controlling the fight after the initial attack. if you have ever fought a good theif you will notice they spend a majority of the time running away from necro’s attempting to avoid being hit.

Necro’s have middle of the road burst. High sustainable damage, high health, and a lot of slows and ways to control and hinder a player.

Thieves have high burst, low sustainable damage, high mobility, weak defense, and low health making them easily beaten.

Normally I find your aruguments to be pretty well placed, but this one is not. You don’t seem to be very familiar with the P/D thief and its traits at all. They have numerous condition clears, (on invis and on heal), regen on invis and on heal, and only need to use initative on going invis more. Everytime they attack out of stealth they drop 5 more bleeds on you. For single target conditions they are easily top 3.

P/D is easily one of the most powerful condition builds in the game, and by no means is it “easy” to beat for anyone. And the whole thief class is based around not having a face to face fight, hence the stealth.

I have fought numerous amazing thieves, P/D, D/D, S/D, D/P, and ALL of them know how to control a fight. When you are the one going invisible and initiating attacks, YOU control the fight. While I find S/D, and DD much easier to deal with as a necro, both D/P and P/D are nearly impossible to outlast, or out damage.

Completely ignoring the insane stealth healing mechanic of the thief is the only way you can call their defenses weak. They have higher armor than we do. Yes they have low HP, but its easily made up with avoidance since you know, we can’t burst them down.

EDIT: “making them easily beaten.” – I have a thief friend who would love to prove you wrong if you find some time.

Rennoko.5731:

Normally I find your aruguments to be pretty well placed, but this one is not. You don’t seem to be very familiar with the P/D thief and its traits at all. They have numerous condition clears, (on invis and on heal), regen on invis and on heal, and only need to use initative on going invis more. Everytime they attack out of stealth they drop 5 more bleeds on you. For single target conditions they are easily top 3.

P/D is easily one of the most powerful condition builds in the game, and by no means is it “easy” to beat for anyone. And the whole thief class is based around not having a face to face fight, hence the stealth.

I have fought numerous amazing thieves, P/D, D/D, S/D, D/P, and ALL of them know how to control a fight. When you are the one going invisible and initiating attacks, YOU control the fight. While I find S/D, and DD much easier to deal with as a necro, both D/P and P/D are nearly impossible to outlast, or out damage.

Completely ignoring the insane stealth healing mechanic of the thief is the only way you can call their defenses weak. They have higher armor than we do. Yes they have low HP, but its easily made up with avoidance since you know, we can’t burst them down.

EDIT: “making them easily beaten.” – I have a thief friend who would love to prove you wrong if you find some time.

It has less to do with not understanding thieves and more to do with never running a condition build. I run minions so I never worry about conditions being removed. I dislike the way Necro Conditions work.

I have run into really good thieves who are a pain to kill, but I consider any time they run away to be a win. If I force you away from your objective, I win. If you kill me you win. Since I am never going to run because as a necro that’s just not really possible.

The deal with theives is that a majority run D/D and or S/P which I find to be irksome, but not a problem. As a minion mancer single target S/P aren’t an issue because when they come out of stealth I blind or charge them down and then hit them as hard as I can. When I sense them going to stealth I pop ds and hit life transfer. Channels follow in stealth (perhaps a bug, but beautiful). I swap to staff drop the marks, and wait them out. If they return I swap back to axe/focus and hit them with a chill, they will usually invis and cleanse, I hit them with axe 2 for a cripple and retail

Now we are in a battle of attrition, they are annoyed and I still have ds. Against theives i uses DS as buffer. As for P/D theives, I rarely find them a big issue, but that’s because I use DS to offset the damage stacking, and the more you send them into stealth the less they can hurt you.

I have lost to quite a few theives. There is one guy I routinely see in tPvP. He is a hassle and a half. He kills me more often than I kill him, but I chase him off his target more often than he kills me. His team has made killing me their number one priority because I can force their burst to retreat defensively. Their ele and condition ranger on the other hand ugh.

The only classes I can routinely beat are guardians, warriors, and Power build rangers. Guardians are actually the funniest to build, because they never expect it. They are so used to being bunkers and sustaining through a large amount of burst that when I hit them, and all their boons are gone and their health drops fast. They freak and start wasting CD’s :P.

I think in spvp man thief issues vanish, mainly because points can’t be flipped in stealth. P/D I can imagine is certainly less effective there, though again I base all my posts off wvw logic. Also minons can block (I think) the stealth bleed unload skill. Warriors have a really hard time in spvp because with insane attack damage they are too easy to cc or kite.

I find it odd that your build with boon ripping mions doesn’t work on bunker eles. That would be easy I would have thought , on paper. Maybe the aoe scraps the minions.

Rennoko.5731:

I think in spvp man thief issues vanish, mainly because points can’t be flipped in stealth. P/D I can imagine is certainly less effective there, though again I base all my posts off wvw logic. Also minons can block (I think) the stealth bleed unload skill. Warriors have a really hard time in spvp because with insane attack damage they are too easy to cc or kite.

I find it odd that your build with boon ripping mions doesn’t work on bunker eles. That would be easy I would have thought , on paper. Maybe the aoe scraps the minions.

I rarely do sPvP anymore. I prefer free or paid tourneys. I can wreck bunker ele’s because their aoe damage is weak, but they build boons so fast it’s a constant work to keep them off. They are a bugger to kill because attunement swapping dodging for heals d/d bunkers are so mobile and can heal so well. The ele’s that make me go ugh are Glass cannon S/D or there is a certain D/D build that wrecks my minions. I don’t do a lot of WvWvW so I can’t comment on it.

The two builds that destroy my minions so fast I can’t really do much are Condition Trap Rangers and Grenade Engineers. If I run into either one, I typically head in another direction to pick on an easier target and leave them to someone who can deal with them.

People like, and I mean really like, complaining about the limitations of any profession so that is why the forum seems filled with whiners but those same people are usually the ones who love the job enough to have put a lot of time into it.

The technical points raised in this thread and many others have a lot of merit. However, the Necromancer is, perhaps, the ultimate farming machine. It takes more skill than a botter wants but if you want a thief to “clean up,” think of Necromancer.

Ratphink.4751:

Wanting more mobility is one thing. However the comparison being used (Necro vs. Theif mobility) is like comparing a 16 wheeler to a Sportscar. They’re completely different, and the truck will never be able to accelerate or tear down at the same speeds so pining over the difference is a useless gesture that gains nothing. If you like the Theifs mobility, then cool, play a theif. Just don’t go onto another classes forum and complain that other classes can’t give that kind of mobility when the class is designed to be one of if not the most mobile class in the game.

In this analogy, a thief can both accelerate faster and tow more weight than a necromancer. Necromancers has the advantage of having a slightly better fuel economy but that aren’t nearly enough to make up for the differences.

Bas.7406:

Thieves are far from top three in condition damage, they are also the easiest to kill. Their mobility is their ownly survival tool. They are popular because they are easy to pickup, and the aesthetic is pretty cool.

The Necro has a significantly easier time in a face to face battle, and in controlling the fight after the initial attack. if you have ever fought a good theif you will notice they spend a majority of the time running away from necro’s attempting to avoid being hit.

Necro’s have middle of the road burst. High sustainable damage, high health, and a lot of slows and ways to control and hinder a player.

Thieves have high burst, low sustainable damage, high mobility, weak defense, and low health making them easily beaten.

Sorry but mobility+stealth is always better than hp+armor. You should look up why in WW2 that aircraft carriers with high mobility aircrafts totally outclassed battleships with heavy armor and large hulls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ten-Go

Hint: Battleships can rarely hit the aircrafts, while the aircrafts can easily hit the battleship. US only lost like 10 planes and 10 aircrew before sinking the Yamato and its 4,000 men crew.

Every time I face a thief in wvw I feel like that I am the Yamato fighting aircrafts. I can only randomly fire my underpowered AA guns (AoE nukes) to pray that they hit. And even if they do hit, the thief won’t die because my weak AA guns are not strong enough to blast them down. The best I can do is force that aircraft to run away for 10 seconds, and then he will come back fully healed to try sinking me again. At the same time the aircrafts use their torpedoes (6k damage attacks) against me which I got no defence against (no skills like stealth or Ride the Lightning) and they deals way too much damage for my damage control (healing).

There is a reason why modern jetfighters are known for their mobility and stealth, not ability to sustain damage.

CHIPS.6018:

In this analogy, a thief can both accelerate faster and tow more weight than a necromancer. Necromancers has the advantage of having a slightly better fuel economy but that aren’t nearly enough to make up for the differences.

What sports car have you seen that can out-tow a semi? I’m genuinely curious on this.

CHIPS isn’t claiming a sportscar out-hauls a semi. What he’s claiming is that my analogy is incorrect because a theif pulls more weight (ie is more valuable in a team fight). I may not agree with the man, but he’s not a lunatic. :P

The analogy was fine; wrong, but fine.

Minions are fine for leveling and 1v1 encounters but thats about it. When the going gets tough, your pets get…dead. Instantly. Only flesh wurm is useful in dungeons when you can prop him up on a ledge somewhere out of the way, the rest of them get smoked in poison/fire/circles/boss cleaves/wvw zerg aoes/a stiff breeze from any mob veteran or tougher. Its infuriating, they need some kind of aoe resistance and a way to heal them outside of staff 2 and life transfer once every 40 seconds or whatever. I think a great way to do it would be to make the blood fiend’s heal affect himself and all the other minions along with you. That would ramp up survivability considerably. Then just some kind of blanket aoe reduction for all summons/minions/spirit weapons/etc and we’d be good to go.

Any issues besides you cant win vs theif?

CHIPS.6018:

I had played necro since release. I got full exotic on her and even bought her a commander tag. But I find necro highly stressful and very frustrating at times. Yes there are moments when my necro shrines. But those times are far in between. Most of the time I had to work much harder to get so little done.

I find myself rage quitting and rage afking a lot nowadays. They are a combination of a few things. One is not being able to hunt down an enemy that I would have no problem killing on my thief. Another is not getting away in a situation when I would easily have escaped on my thief. I think about all the money I spent on her that would be better spend on another character. But I am too committed to her right now to switch. I think about all the time I spent designing her traits and items, that all leads to nothing. Often I just feel so useless that I just rage quit or rage afk.

If you do not handle stress and frustrations well, stay away from the necromancer. Necro is all about enduring though your disappointments and do the best that you can.

This is EXACTLY how I was feeling earlier; my story is very similar to yours – full exotics, commander, so much work put into the character… I have a thief character now, and I was getting so frustrated playing my necromancer…

Problems with the Necromancer:

1) Nearly no stability; no evades, blocks, invulnerabilities, stealth…

2) No mobility – no way to chase enemies down (EVERY other class is better at this)

3) No way to escape enemy zergs (No mobility, no stealth, no stability, no invulnerability, no blocks, no evades (only dodge), slow movement speed even with 25% extra signet) (On my thief, I have no problems escaping zergs. Nor do I have problems escaping zergs on my ranger, my mesmer, my warrior, or my elementalist… all of them have nice abilities to dash and/or blink and/or stealth away and escape zergs safely.)

4) Even if we deal high damage with daggers, there’s no way to keep up with an enemy to use that damage whatsoever; plus, enemies deal more damage with their weapons while having the mobility, invulnerability, blocks, evades, stealth, etc.

5) Our staff is terribly designed; it has 4 circles and necrotic grasp. Necrotic grasp is a cool ability, but one circle is enough; the fact that they have of basically the same looking/feeling ability on the same weapon is just ridiculous.

6) Even if minion AI is fixed, they still will die instantly in WvW/Dungeons, leaving you without an Elite, Utility, or a Heal skill. Completely useless abilities that need complete remakes to ever be viable in WvW or Dungeons or against pretty much any Champion/Legendary with AoE damage. My minions will literally die before their summoning animations are even finished.

In the end, Necromancers may be okay in SPvP, but in WvW they will never be great simply because they have nothing. No invulnerabilities, no evades, no mobility, no stealth, barely any utility; they suck and I suggest staying away from this class.

You can’t just bunker build as a necromancer with Plague form in WvW; enemies will focus you down, immobilize and cripple you – making you a dead necromancer within seconds.

Also: I’ve played Necromancer since the release of this game; the class hasn’t gotten much better; a few bug fixes here and there, but it’s never going to improve as a class. Arenanet only seems to balance around SPvP, so they don’t care that it’s a bad class for WvW – it will stay this way forever.

Caveth.3268:

3) No way to escape enemy zergs (No mobility, no stealth, no stability, no invulnerability, no blocks, no evades (only dodge), slow movement speed even with 25% extra signet)

Full stop. For actual movement speed NOBODY can beat a necromancer. Permanent swiftness (and even if not permenant, very long duration) means you are always moving at the max possible speed.

Sticking to your target with a dagger? Try using a warhorn offhand. Locust Swarm is the ultimate in sticking tools.

Gap closing? Dark Path is available to every necro regardless of build. Unless they dodge it or block it (dang Guardians), it is very reliable now.

Escapes require more thought than on other classes, but they are definitely possible via spectral walk and flesh wurm. Or go cliff diving.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Caveth.3268:

3) No way to escape enemy zergs (No mobility, no stealth, no stability, no invulnerability, no blocks, no evades (only dodge), slow movement speed even with 25% extra signet)

Full stop. For actual movement speed NOBODY can beat a necromancer. Permanent swiftness (and even if not permenant, very long duration) means you are always moving at the max possible speed.

Sticking to your target with a dagger? Try using a warhorn offhand. Locust Swarm is the ultimate in sticking tools.

Gap closing? Dark Path is available to every necro regardless of build. Unless they dodge it or block it (dang Guardians), it is very reliable now.

Escapes require more thought than on other classes, but they are definitely possible via spectral walk and flesh wurm. Or go cliff diving.

Swiftness is only 8% more of a movement speed buff than the signet, and it doesn’t stack with the signet; so, I only use the signet and gain swiftness from other players when possible.

Trying to gap close against any good player is nearly impossible unless you hold spectral grasp (which I do), and that doesn’t help against many enemies (like thieves/(d/d)elementalists, which make up a huge portion of WvW players).

Escapes are very bad on necromancers and require us to take a utility skill like spectral walk or flesh wurm; flesh wurm can be killed by an enemy and can only teleport you after being summoned – many times, I can walk to my location faster than this thing can be summoned to teleport to it – you pretty much have to presummon it in a location before a fight; otherwise, it’s pretty much useless for escaping. Spectral walk is okay if you want to jump of an extraordinarily high cliff or if you want a bunch of swiftness.

In the end, other classes have better mobility abilities and yet they also have more damage, invulnerabilities, evades, stability, stealth, vigor… just everything about other classes is better.

I suggest for anyone that hasn’t started playing this class to just never start at all.

If you’re using the wurm as an escape, you summoned it somewhere safe some time ago. Spectral Walk is great for jukes, even without any cliffs.

And yeah, Specrtal Grasp is good, usually better than Dark Path (I’d rather make them come to me than go to them most of the time), but Dark Path is more reliable in 1v1 situations due to its homing and fewer terrain problems. It can also be used for escapes on a mob or a straggler. I haven’t been counting how many times they have saved me, but the escapes a necro does have are very good, they just require thinking more.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If you’re using the wurm as an escape, you summoned it somewhere safe some time ago. Spectral Walk is great for jukes, even without any cliffs.

And yeah, Specrtal Grasp is good, usually better than Dark Path (I’d rather make them come to me than go to them most of the time), but Dark Path is more reliable in 1v1 situations due to its homing and fewer terrain problems. It can also be used for escapes on a mob or a straggler. I haven’t been counting how many times they have saved me, but the escapes a necro does have are very good, they just require thinking more.

Necromancer escapes aren’t ‘very good’ by any standards. Clearly you haven’t played any of the other classes to see just how easy it is to escape as the other classes in the game compared to this horrendous class – and to see the amount of power loaded into the other classes compared to necromancer.

I don’t post much in these forums but have pvp’ed since release, about half the time on a necro. I think anyone who doesn’t recognize that necros are the worst all around class are delusional. That being said they are complex and challenging to play which is why I keep at it. Fixing the broken classes/builds ie thief, mesmer and d/d ele and exploits are the first needs. After that necros still obviously need more damage output and more mobility. When I can’t even catch guardians … I don’t expect anything at this point as it’s been months and I pay them nothing and I’ll admit my interest is waning.

@the above mobility complaints.

1. There are three high evasion classes – Thief, Ranger, Mesmer. Comparing any other class to them in terms of ability to evade an attack is ridiculous. No other class has as much access to as many different abilities to evade damage or abilities as theses three.

2. There are two high mobility classes – Thief and Elemenatlist – The Mesmer is not mobile it’s an evasion class. It’s only method of escape is to evade, evade, and confuse you until you give up. The ranger does not have high mobility, it also has high evasion. It cannot escape a fight well it can prevent fights. Comparing the mobility of any other class to these two is ridiculous because both classes most have the mobility in order to survive.

3. There are three defensive focus classes (defensive meaning they are built around the design to survive hits (not evade them) and outlast) – Engineers, Guardians, and Necromancers. The problem with defensive classes is they can never have the mobility of the high mobility classes or they will be impossible to kill this is balance.

4. The Warrior is the only class that can spec into any of the above skills, but it’s also why they severely lose value in the other areas once they spec into them.

If you have trouble catching guardians and engineers in a fight, the problem is not with the Necro. The problem is with you. Every class has problems catching Elementalists and Thieves because that’s their class design. It’s called balance the tradeoff for that mobility is the ease at which they die when caught (bunker ele’s not with standing, but bunker ele’s do no damage).

Forget comparing us to other classes, learn to balance around your class. Ele’s, Theives and rangers are the top WvWvW classes for a simple reason. Mobility and the ability to avoid fights in a zerg world are awesome. Rangers have the best range. Engineers and Necromancers are defensive classes so they will see the least amount of play because a majority of game players run around with Kill! Kill! Kill! playing in their head.

When you compare escape mechanisms, you have to compare us to similar classes. The engineer outside of those who spec for it have almost no ability to avoid or escape a fight. They have to specifically spec into Elixirs. I have an 80 engineer and have played WvWvW with him, trust me it’s not very easy. Guardians outside of stability have zero ability to survive a zerg or avoid a fight once spotted. Again they have to have stability because they are very boon dependent and they don’t have access to a second life bar.

Learn to think about us in terms of attrition and defensive, and you will find that the class is not frustrating but very well balanced.

What? The guardian evades skills with about the 4-5 blocks they can get on demand. The ranger IS a mobile class — maybe you’re not making a good use of monarch’s leap and the double-pounce gap closer mechanic.

Surviving a zerg as a guardian on cleric gear is stupidly easy. I don’t know what horrible spec guardians you run with, but a properly specced and geared guardian in wvw can pretty much stay in a zerg for a good 10 seconds under focus fire and get out with a smart leap of faith or renewed focus.

Guardians can get away fine. They’re just bad chasers and vulnerable to ranged specs. Ranger range means nothing when their damage is garbage.

Zenith.7301:

What? The guardian evades skills with about the 4-5 blocks they can get on demand. The ranger IS a mobile class — maybe you’re not making a good use of monarch’s leap and the double-pounce gap closer mechanic.

Surviving a zerg as a guardian on cleric gear is stupidly easy. I don’t know what horrible spec guardians you run with, but a properly specced and geared guardian in wvw can pretty much stay in a zerg for a good 10 seconds under focus fire and get out with a smart leap of faith or renewed focus.

Guardians can get away fine. They’re just bad chasers and vulnerable to ranged specs. Ranger range means nothing when their damage is garbage.

Evasion is not blocking. Evasion is the ability to avoid damage in a fight using high vigor return. Rangers, Mesmers, and Theives can dodge repeatedly. Blocking is a defensive trait. 10 seconds in a zerg is still death. They cannot flee or chase an opponent. We can last 5-10 seconds using proper specs. A smart Leap of faith is simply a delay of death it’s not a flee. They can’t break off a fight, and they know this. leap of faith takes you still within range of just about every classes attack.

Rangers can avoid combat all together because they can range and flee, but they do not have the mobility to break a fight off completely once it starts like Thieves and Ele’s. They are high evasion, decent mobility class with awful utilites.

I believe the bottom line is; without a spammable gap closer (Dagger 2 on thief), invisibility, or ride the lightning, you can’t disengage from a fight.

Thief/mesmer/ele – can do.

You could make the argument that engineers get invis, but they generally move so slow it isn’t going to allow them to break enough distance unless they juke effectively while invis.

Oh and norns… norns can all disengage…. should have rolled a norn necro.

Bas.7406:

@the above mobility complaints.

1. There are three high evasion classes – Thief, Ranger, Mesmer. Comparing any other class to them in terms of ability to evade an attack is ridiculous. No other class has as much access to as many different abilities to evade damage or abilities as theses three.

2. There are two high mobility classes – Thief and Elemenatlist – The Mesmer is not mobile it’s an evasion class. It’s only method of escape is to evade, evade, and confuse you until you give up. The ranger does not have high mobility, it also has high evasion. It cannot escape a fight well it can prevent fights. Comparing the mobility of any other class to these two is ridiculous because both classes most have the mobility in order to survive.

3. There are three defensive focus classes (defensive meaning they are built around the design to survive hits (not evade them) and outlast) – Engineers, Guardians, and Necromancers. The problem with defensive classes is they can never have the mobility of the high mobility classes or they will be impossible to kill this is balance.

4. The Warrior is the only class that can spec into any of the above skills, but it’s also why they severely lose value in the other areas once they spec into them.

If you have trouble catching guardians and engineers in a fight, the problem is not with the Necro. The problem is with you. Every class has problems catching Elementalists and Thieves because that’s their class design. It’s called balance the tradeoff for that mobility is the ease at which they die when caught (bunker ele’s not with standing, but bunker ele’s do no damage).

Forget comparing us to other classes, learn to balance around your class. Ele’s, Theives and rangers are the top WvWvW classes for a simple reason. Mobility and the ability to avoid fights in a zerg world are awesome. Rangers have the best range. Engineers and Necromancers are defensive classes so they will see the least amount of play because a majority of game players run around with Kill! Kill! Kill! playing in their head.

When you compare escape mechanisms, you have to compare us to similar classes. The engineer outside of those who spec for it have almost no ability to avoid or escape a fight. They have to specifically spec into Elixirs. I have an 80 engineer and have played WvWvW with him, trust me it’s not very easy. Guardians outside of stability have zero ability to survive a zerg or avoid a fight once spotted. Again they have to have stability because they are very boon dependent and they don’t have access to a second life bar.

Learn to think about us in terms of attrition and defensive, and you will find that the class is not frustrating but very well balanced.

First of all, saying that rangers have no mobility is absolutely false; use a greatsword on your ranger, and Swoop has a 12 second cooldown and almost instantly dashes you 1100 range; it works the same way Ride the Lightning (on d/d elementalist) does, but on a lower cooldown. I have no problems whatsoever with escaping and evading enemies with this weapon.

When it comes to warriors, they can use their greatsword with 2 amazing abilities to run when they’re in danger; their spin and their 5 ability, which causes them to run incredibly fast in the direction they choose. Plus, they have other abilities that can dash/invulnerable(indure pain)/stability/block for them as well on their utility/elites.

If necros have such immobility, no way to avoid damage, low damage, and low utility – necros are simply underpowered. Necros have less than every other class in the game. Engineers can spec for amazing damage and even stealth; sure, they aren’t the greatest either and need work as well, but definitely not as bad as the necromancer.

As for your final statement “Learn to think about us in terms of attrition and defensive, and you will find that the class is not frustrating but very well balanced.” There is no attrition when a zerg comes and kills you in 1 second regardless of how much health/tougness/abilities/dodges you use to escape. Even in plague form with blind going, a zerg could easily kill any necromancer in 1 second or less. Clearly you must be on a low tier server where the zergs have no idea what they’re doing, because ever since I joined blackgate with my guild in tier 2/tier 1 matchings, the zergs are fierce and instagib any supposedly ‘high health’ or ‘tanky’ necromancer. Never once have I seen a necromancer escape a zerg, yet I have seen most other classes escape with ease (with the exception of engineers who don’t spec for stealth).

Rennoko.5731:

I believe the bottom line is; without a spammable gap closer (Dagger 2 on thief), invisibility, or ride the lightning, you can’t disengage from a fight.

Thief/mesmer/ele – can do.

You could make the argument that engineers get invis, but they generally move so slow it isn’t going to allow them to break enough distance unless they juke effectively while invis.

Oh and norns… norns can all disengage…. should have rolled a norn necro.

Simply put a necromancer is the “Yamato without those big guns”. Necromancer is not quick/tricky enough to engage an enemy. Necromancer’s firepower is very weak in the engagement. Necromancer is not quick/tricky enough to disengage a fight. All the necro is good for is drawing fire away from his/her allies.

I often sacrifice myself to buy my allies time. For example let’s say my group of 15 got caught by a group of 40 foes. It is obvious that we have to retreat. Since I know I can’t run anyways, I would actually charge head first into the enemy, and then run in another direction. That will draw maybe 20 enemies to chase me. I would survive and tank for about 10 seconds before dying. That buys my allies 10 extra seconds to get away.

So yes Necromancers does fight like the Yamato, even how they dies.

Rennoko.5731:

I believe the bottom line is; without a spammable gap closer (Dagger 2 on thief), invisibility, or ride the lightning, you can’t disengage from a fight.

Thief/mesmer/ele – can do.

You could make the argument that engineers get invis, but they generally move so slow it isn’t going to allow them to break enough distance unless they juke effectively while invis.

Oh and norns… norns can all disengage…. should have rolled a norn necro.

Bingo! There are numerous side arguments you can make about the other classes, but those three are really the only ones that can successfully break combat repeatedly.

Caveth.3268:

First of all, saying that rangers have no mobility is absolutely false; use a greatsword on your ranger, and Swoop has a 12 second cooldown and almost instantly dashes you 1100 range; it works the same way Ride the Lightning (on d/d elementalist) does, but on a lower cooldown. I have no problems whatsoever with escaping and evading enemies with this weapon.

When it comes to warriors, they can use their greatsword with 2 amazing abilities to run when they’re in danger; their spin and their 5 ability, which causes them to run incredibly fast in the direction they choose. Plus, they have other abilities that can dash/invulnerable(indure pain)/stability/block for them as well on their utility/elites.

If necros have such immobility, no way to avoid damage, low damage, and low utility – necros are simply underpowered. Necros have less than every other class in the game. Engineers can spec for amazing damage and even stealth; sure, they aren’t the greatest either and need work as well, but definitely not as bad as the necromancer.

As for your final statement “Learn to think about us in terms of attrition and defensive, and you will find that the class is not frustrating but very well balanced.” There is no attrition when a zerg comes and kills you in 1 second regardless of how much health/tougness/abilities/dodges you use to escape. Even in plague form with blind going, a zerg could easily kill any necromancer in 1 second or less. Clearly you must be on a low tier server where the zergs have no idea what they’re doing, because ever since I joined blackgate with my guild in tier 2/tier 1 matchings, the zergs are fierce and instagib any supposedly ‘high health’ or ‘tanky’ necromancer. Never once have I seen a necromancer escape a zerg, yet I have seen most other classes escape with ease (with the exception of engineers who don’t spec for stealth).

You are requesting WvWvW changes when the entire conversation has been based around tPvP and sPvP. We have already conceded that wvwvw is a zerg fest, and therefore subject to it’s own rules.

However, my server is Tarnished Coast, and so I do know really good wvwvw battles. I don’t partake in them a lot, but the zergs are extremely strong, and if you don’t get away you will die.

As for the ranger part, the first time a ranger is able to escape from a zerg using GS (rarely equipped on ranger since WH and SB are standard or LB with Axe/WH) will be a first for me. The next time it happens in a hot join or tournament will be the first time. Rangers are hilariously easy to trap and prevent from running. The good ones run double dogs, but since the recent change to ther pet abilities double dogs was nerfed.

I also listed warriors in their own category because they have the tools of all three categories, but aren’t fantastic at any of them. Next time please read closely before trying to argue since I mentioned warriors can be highly mobile or highly defensive or high in evasion depending on utility or traits taken. Thank you for pointing it out in more detail what I had already stated.

Finally, we deal very good damage, have a high survival (almost nothing can survive a 10 v 1 for long except maybe a mesmer) I have never died in 1 second against any zerg. I have died in 4 and up, but never one. DS plus two dodges plus a Spectrals = pretty decent survival. I don’t run minions in WvWvW zergs though I am tempted to try it. We cannot escape a fight once it’s started, but this game is not built around who can escape zergs. It’s built around tPvP.

In tournaments we are strong. In defense of keeps and cooperative team play in wvwvw we are very strong. In zerg fests and trying to flee we are very weak as are guardians and engineers (the first time an engineer is able to get away from a 40 man zerg same with guardians once the fight began will be the first time). In order for an engineer to have limited invisibilty, he has to go elixir builds, which means no grenades or grenade elixir build which means no defensive abilities outside of elixirs.