Guild Wars 2

“Necro: DS weapon swap change was not intended but is likely going to stay. According to devs necro has tons of build options and they want to bring other classes close to that.”

So they accidentally removed a simple piece of functionality, and now don’t want to (or don’t know how to) change it back. We already have multiple restrictions on functionality while in DS and I don’t understand why they are putting more limits on it. This makes DS less interesting and simply dumbing it down, lowering the ‘skill cap’ of using our class mechanic.

Functionality they have denied us in DS include:
*Stomp
*Revive
*Heal (be it from regeneration, allies or where ever)
*Use spectral buffs (you completely loss the buff when you go into DS, why don’t it just not function if they don’t want people using it in DS?)
*View our buffs and debuffs
*See condition damage ticks (this applies to the guy casting the conditions as well, they removed the visible ticks in some patch a while ago, gods know why)
*change weapons

Some necro’s already don’t enjoy DS as much as they could (mainly condition builds) and this lack of functionality only punishes people for using our class mechanic, they should be making people want to use DS more, too enjoy DS more.

And I’ll just leave the statement about lots of viable builds as ‘debatable’.

For a class defining feature it sure does seem awfully awful and limiting

Chronoslol.7514:

Wow so entitled, anet doesnt have to give you any functionality they dont want to, check your priviledge

This, and… DS is designed to be a transformation.
When transformed (and most times, when carrying an item) you cannot do basic actions because you’re busy with what you’re doing.
Infact the dev also said DS is designed to be a transformation to use when on low health to continue fighting or to prevent spikes when fighting – not a tool to “bypass” some fundamental mechanics such as being vulnerable while ressing or buying yourself seconds of cooldown with in-transformation swapping.
DS was never meant to be a normal state you use for every purpose.

Red Falcon.8257:

Chronoslol.7514:

Wow so entitled, anet doesnt have to give you any functionality they dont want to, check your priviledge

This, and… DS is designed to be a transformation.
When transformed (and most times, when carrying an item) you cannot do basic actions because you’re busy with what you’re doing.
Infact the dev also said DS is designed to be a transformation to use when on low health to continue fighting or to prevent spikes when fighting – not a tool to “bypass” some fundamental mechanics such as being vulnerable while ressing or buying yourself seconds of cooldown with in-transformation swapping.
DS was never meant to be a normal state you use for every purpose.

I was joking, you should feel bad for having an opinion that stupid

Red Falcon.8257:

Chronoslol.7514:

Wow so entitled, anet doesnt have to give you any functionality they dont want to, check your priviledge

This, and… DS is designed to be a transformation.
When transformed (and most times, when carrying an item) you cannot do basic actions because you’re busy with what you’re doing.
Infact the dev also said DS is designed to be a transformation to use when on low health to continue fighting or to prevent spikes when fighting – not a tool to “bypass” some fundamental mechanics such as being vulnerable while ressing or buying yourself seconds of cooldown with in-transformation swapping.
DS was never meant to be a normal state you use for every purpose.

“use when on low health to continue fighting” is how kittens use it.

Well, maybe they’ll pursue making it a more potent transform. As it is, it doesn’t have the “oomph” factor that a lot of transformations do.

In any case, not expecting much this patch. Maybe some tweaks to the numbers of some skills, maybe a few bug fixes, but no big changes.

“Necromancers are a bit slower as a profession, they need to move into that kill radius in order to get somebody locked down, but once they start pounding on somebody it should be that that person should have to run away or die.”

This statement is what interested me the most, how accurate does everyone feel it is?

Haha “lots” of builds to use?

If Anet is serious about balancing DS, they should make the following change:

“While in DS, Lich Form and Plague, the necro losses all his/her weapon and armor. DS skills can only be affected by character traits. The DS skills and characters stats are balanced accordingly so its fair.”

Now DS benefits the different necro builds more fairly. No longer would power builds get the most advantage from DS.

This make sense in lore. When transformed, the necro is not using weapons or armor.

I still lol at the part about Necros have alot of builds to use.

MrHaze.3690:

“Necromancers are a bit slower as a profession, they need to move into that kill radius in order to get somebody locked down, but once they start pounding on somebody it should be that that person should have to run away or die.”

This statement is what interested me the most, how accurate does everyone feel it is?

1) Slower – Actually we are pretty fast. We have 25% walk signet. We also got swiftness. It is the lack of things like leap skills that’s the problem.

2) Kill radius – We do have a kill radius, and that’s dagger melee range. The problem with that is in wvw zerg vs zerg we cannot survive long enough to get there. Not to mention our dagger is purely single target and so for all intends and purpose is useless in zerg fights.

3) Lock down – Sorry, but our lock down and snares sucks when compared to many other classes. It is hard to keep the foe at dagger range.

4) Pounding – Unless we use dagger our damage is way too low to be consider pounding.

5) Run away or die – Most people have no problem getting away from a necro. See point #3.

I am sorry but that description sounds more like a thief or warrior. I am more worry now that, after half a year, Anet still doesn’t seem to know what they really want with the necro.

Banjal.7328:

I still lol at the part about Necros have alot of builds to use.

I don’t know about sPvP in particular, but in general Necros do have many different builds.

Meanwhile think about how many Thieves you’ve seen who went Traps instead of Stealth.

Necromancers easily have the largest number of viable builds.

LastDay.3524:

Banjal.7328:

I still lol at the part about Necros have alot of builds to use.

I don’t know about sPvP in particular, but in general Necros do have many different builds.

Meanwhile think about how many Thieves you’ve seen who went Traps instead of Stealth.

To be fair that example is more because stealth is very strong as opposed to their traps aren’t good.

MrHaze.3690:

“Necromancers are a bit slower as a profession, they need to move into that kill radius in order to get somebody locked down, but once they start pounding on somebody it should be that that person should have to run away or die.”

This statement is what interested me the most, how accurate does everyone feel it is?

Say that as a Necromancer using a dagger/wh or focus to a Guardian or a Warrior using Hundred Blades on you…

I’m crossing my fingers that the whole ‘making utilities more useful’ thing they’re doing will also apply to Necromancer, rather than the class being as seemingly ignored as it is.

I’m crossing my fingers moreover in the hope that ‘useful utilities’ doesn’t just mean yet more minion bugfixes.

Because we all know how amazing 100b is in PvP, thats why every good team runs a warrior… oh wait.

“Necromancers are a bit slower as a profession, they need to move into that kill radius in order to get somebody locked down, but once they start pounding on somebody it should be that that person should have to run away or die.”

This is what I was referring to, I wasn’t trying to insult warriors or anything. As a Necromancer using a Dagger in PvP can you honestly say that this is 100% accurate?

What this Dev here said applies to most classes. No one is going to stand around and let you melee them… The auto attack from Dagger 1 honestly doesn’t scare a lot of people.

Red Falcon.8257:

Chronoslol.7514:

Wow so entitled, anet doesnt have to give you any functionality they dont want to, check your priviledge

This, and… DS is designed to be a transformation.
When transformed (and most times, when carrying an item) you cannot do basic actions because you’re busy with what you’re doing.
Infact the dev also said DS is designed to be a transformation to use when on low health to continue fighting or to prevent spikes when fighting – not a tool to “bypass” some fundamental mechanics such as being vulnerable while ressing or buying yourself seconds of cooldown with in-transformation swapping.
DS was never meant to be a normal state you use for every purpose.

So that only applies to necros right? because every other class transform can do all those things you say we shouldn’t be allowed to do, and that was intended. They also said DS is the core mechanic of our class and once we learn how to use it we unlock our class potential, yet they continue to limit it and you say it’s supposed to only be an OS button….something isn’t adding up here…

Can someone post a link to where the “state of the game” is? I cannot find it. In the only link I found they didn’t talk about necro at all.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/March_2012:_State_of_the_Game

It’s at Guildwars2guru.com

…Does anyone at ANet actually play this profession?

Build diversity? Sure, 3 ~5 different builds, because we don’t have ANY that actually stand out so we still have to puzzle a way to make Necro work.

Making Utilities more useful? Necros are already pretty much defined by what utilities they have equipped, I’d say more-so then weapons.What are our more famous builds, Well-bomber, MM, Conditions->Epidemic… do you have any idea how freaking constricting that is? A build being defined by 3 of the 10 skills available and all of them with high cooldowns and long casting times?

Using DS when low in health? Now I know no one there knows how to actually play as Necromancers or against.

And when I get to immobilize not supposed actually stop people, that pretty much kills our only way to actually maintain damage with dagger, our only high DPS weapon.

I love DS whether im playing power or condition. I almost exclusively use it for offence rather than soaking up damage. People that say DS is bad for condition necro arent using it to its full potential.

shroud stomping is just a matter of practice.

CHIPS.6018:

Can someone post a link to where the “state of the game” is?

Here:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/news/1070-gurus-spvp-state-of-the-game-w-tyler-bearce-jonathan-sharp-and-karl-mclain/

The transcribed notes for necro:

“A bit slow, need to move to kill radius to lock down. Need to have heavy control on boons for removing or converting them.

Deathshroud more of a transform skill, not an actual down-state. No weapon swapping deathshroud will come back.

Build Diversity; necromancer in a place where other professions should be.

Evading while immobilized, not just for necromancer, up for discussion. Immobilize shouldn’t become a “sort of” stun, where you are completely locked out and can’t dodge during it. Need to keep an eye on this."

Bhawb.7408:

Because we all know how amazing 100b is in PvP, thats why every good team runs a warrior… oh wait.

And that is the core of the problem, the balance focus is stuck on SPVP and the rest of the game is suffering for it.

Btw, i am getting the impression that minionmaster is much more viable in SPVP than it is in PVE thanks to the mess that is the games targeting UI. This is however not something unique to necromancers as it also apply to mesmers with clones out.

All in all, SPVP and PVE plays very differently and so far the necromancer brokenness is most visible in PVE.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

Red Falcon.8257:

Chronoslol.7514:

Wow so entitled, anet doesnt have to give you any functionality they dont want to, check your priviledge

This, and… DS is designed to be a transformation.
When transformed (and most times, when carrying an item) you cannot do basic actions because you’re busy with what you’re doing.
Infact the dev also said DS is designed to be a transformation to use when on low health to continue fighting or to prevent spikes when fighting – not a tool to “bypass” some fundamental mechanics such as being vulnerable while ressing or buying yourself seconds of cooldown with in-transformation swapping.
DS was never meant to be a normal state you use for every purpose.

So that only applies to necros right? because every other class transform can do all those things you say we shouldn’t be allowed to do, and that was intended. They also said DS is the core mechanic of our class and once we learn how to use it we unlock our class potential, yet they continue to limit it and you say it’s supposed to only be an OS button….something isn’t adding up here…

If ANet had fixed the forum ignore function rather than disabling it, i would say you should have just put RF on ignore and move on as he is of the clear opinion that anything ANet does it holy and right.

DS is for jumping off cliffs, running from zergs, or maybe long range dps for Axe users….

If I see a person pop DS for any other reason, I actually take the time to whisper them, and explain just how stupid I think they are.

Ezeriel.9574:

DS is for jumping off cliffs, running from zergs, or maybe long range dps for Axe users….

If I see a person pop DS for any other reason, I actually take the time to whisper them, and explain just how stupid I think they are.

I’m guessing you just forgot gap closing/chill stacking and quick interrupts with doom?

The smallest change such as slightly reducing life blasts base damage, but adding a small bleed tick would be a step in the right direction to making DS viable for more than just one build.

Mist.3208:

The smallest change such as slightly reducing life blasts base damage, but adding a small bleed tick would be a step in the right direction to making DS viable for more than just one build.

Or give it a damage increase depending on the amount of conditions on the target.

Ezeriel.9574:

DS is for jumping off cliffs, running from zergs, or maybe long range dps for Axe users….

If I see a person pop DS for any other reason, I actually take the time to whisper them, and explain just how stupid I think they are.

What an atrocious thing to do.

I have to say that of the characters I have played, Necromancer does have the most options when it comes to builds that actually work. Even just looking through class forums, there is far more debate in the necro forums as to which build is best, whether it be minions, conditions, wells, etc. For other classes, it’s pretty obvious what works and what doesn’t, and while you can run builds other than the mainstream, they are either far less effective, or have too narrow a focus.

When it comes to Death Shroud, they need to decide what they want it to be. If it’s a transformation, then make it like the others. Frankly, necromancers SHOULD be able to DS rez and stomp, etc. Our class mechanic is this. We don’t have the ability to swap all our weapon skills, or heal/protect a team, or deal extra damage with the touch of a button. We have an extra health pool. What we do with that health pool should be up to the creativity of the necro.

Am I the only one that had a heart attack when they said they were buffing Mesmer GS because they suffer from AoE damage when fighting class like Minion Master Necro?

Seriously?

You buff mesmer because you think they have a hard time killing a Minion freaking master Necromancer?

Was that a joke that I didn’t catch?

I think it is a misconception that we have more viable builds than other classes. Our builds are just more normalized across the board than other classes. When a class has a really REALLY strong build (like shatter mesmers), all the other builds are looked at as not viable, because of that. It is very hard to like a mesmer build that doesn’t have 30 points in their fifth tree.

It isn’t an issue of viability, but rather of balance. If all the classes builds were as balanced as the necro (in traits), they would have the diversity we do. Of course the flip side of that is, those classes better get ready for the nerf bat on their favorite builds. Based on that state of the game conversation, it looks like thieves sub. builds are finally going to get the hammer in WvW, which should encourage them to branch out and try other things, same with the shatter mesmers if they change that build.

As far as DS is concerned, no matter how you are using it, the problem with it is that it restricts excellence. There is only so many things you can do in DS (4 things to be exact). No matter how good you are, you can only do those 4 things. You lose access to utilities, passive healing, activing healing, ultimate, your normal UI screen.

On a personal note, I don’t mind all that, except the loss of the UI. Losing information on my debuffs/buffs makes me want to cry. I can’t even make an informed decision on if I should drop out and transfer/eat conditions because I don’t know what is on me.

Kardiamond.6952:

Am I the only one that had a heart attack when they said they were buffing Mesmer GS because they suffer from AoE damage when fighting class like Minion Master Necro?

Seriously?

You buff mesmer because you think they have a hard time killing a Minion freaking master Necromancer?

Was that a joke that I didn’t catch?

You certainly didn’t catch something. They said that they were going to make the beam attack more reliable in big fights by letting them hit targets along the way instead of getting blocked. They also said that they would be toning down shatters to compensate. I think it’s a good change. A shatter mesmer either does 16k damage or 0 damage to you depending on if you know what to look for. If they make shatter worse and other things better, that helps build diversity.

Rok.5260:

This is what I was referring to, I wasn’t trying to insult warriors or anything. As a Necromancer using a Dagger in PvP can you honestly say that this is 100% accurate?

Yes. I bunker near point for my tPvP team, and it is very rare that I will die. The only times I do (barring just playing bad against a thief) are when they send 2 glass cannons that can nuke me down in a second, or 3+ players.

Just because other players aren’t afraid of your dagger hitting for 2k DPS in a bunker build doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be afraid. Especially if I have minions to complement it, you will literally have a few players come to your point, get wrecked, and then you’ll see them later in the game run close to your point, look at you, and run on back to mid instead.

@Lettucemode

They said they would eventually look at shatter.

Do you know how long it can takes? It’s not like they have an habit of doing fast balance.

And I was just laughting at the fact that they took Minion Master as an example. That’s the part you didn’t seem to catch.

And don’t try to get any sympathy from me for the mesmer class.

Kardiamond.6952:

And I was just laughting at the fact that they took Minion Master as an example. That’s the part you didn’t seem to catch.

Really? Because that is certainly not how your post reads. To be honest, you sounded mad.

Minions are probably our strongest 1v1 build in PvP (at the very least our strongest commonly used build), and have become really popular in the new patch.

Bhawb.7408:

Minions are probably our strongest 1v1 build in PvP (at the very least our strongest commonly used build), and have become really popular in the new patch.

Sometimes I wish you and Bas were right. I would love to use minions.

Death Shroud is pretty pathetic considering the above and also considering it’s actually 60% of your actual HP. No utility for stability/invulnerability, long cooldowns on stun breaks, no access to vigor, a not reliable blink, no way to reflect. DS does not make up for these things that a lot of classes have plenty of access to, Guardian/Mesmer has access to all even multiple times and on such short cooldowns. They really need to take a look at Death Shroud because it is not making up for these things we are lacking.

@Bhawb

And yet a Warrior whirlwind and one shot all our minions.

@Softspoken

Not at all. Pretty hard to read someone via the internet I concure.

I’m only going to speak from a sPvP perspective because the SotG was about sPvP, not PvE or WvW:

-Necro’s weapon sets are in a good place. They have buffed Axe, Focus, and WH last patch, and now every one feels useful for different reasons. Imbalance b/w weapon sets is a core reason why some classes have little build diversity, and this is what I think the devs meant about Necro build diversity.

-There are of course still many underpowered traits and utilities. This can be said about every single class in the game though unfortunately. This is the next area ANet needs to look at. The blood line (and life siphoning in general) is very underwhelming in sPvP.

-The other big thing ANet needs to tackle is the DS UI (which they said they are already working on), and healing in DS. I think you should be able to be healed in DS, so that life siphoning, regen, etc. can work while you are in DS. This will only be a slight bump to Necro survivability, make life siphoning in general more viable, and promote more DS use. I have no issues with the DS abilities themselves.

-Lastly they need to work on minion AI, but this goes hand-in-hand with ranger pet and mesmer clone AI as well.

I stopped reading at “using ds when you are low on health”. If thats what you do… you have no right to complain. NONE. I’m sorry but in this case the famous “l2deathshroud” – by mr. John Peters actually does apply even if it makes me cringe at the thought.
Mesmer clones don’t have same AI… its blatantly obvious in more ways then one.

Rennoko.5731:

I think it is a misconception that we have more viable builds than other classes. Our builds are just more normalized across the board than other classes. When a class has a really REALLY strong build (like shatter mesmers), all the other builds are looked at as not viable, because of that. It is very hard to like a mesmer build that doesn’t have 30 points in their fifth tree.

It isn’t an issue of viability, but rather of balance. If all the classes builds were as balanced as the necro (in traits), they would have the diversity we do. Of course the flip side of that is, those classes better get ready for the nerf bat on their favorite builds.

I agree that its more lack of a clear powerful build that makes us seem diverse. We have 3 or 4 others that ‘work’ or I guess you could say viable depending on one’s definition of it, but none that really stand out as powerful in the way many other professions do.

But I don’t think those singular powerful profession builds are really in line for a nerf. DD ele is just getting tweaked very minor these last few patches, instead they seem to leave powerful builds where they are but throw some bones to other professions to try and catch up (like our Focus was given damage per boon it removed being one example).

Now that they brought axe up on damage they appear to think we are fine. I think we have 3 or 4 manageable builds but all of them could use some minor tweaks yet, if they aren’t going to ever quickly whack a mole the strongest builds.

As I’ve said before they need to focus on more than just the tourney meta, as indeed, even one of the players in the interview noted something like the mass abundance of thieves in hot join and how this isn’t good long term for bringing people in to the game.

DS has some sinergy with condition builds, you just need to get in and get out all the time, and use your attack number #4 smartly,

Aside from that you can use DS to diminish some damage, but it sucks, i’m completly sure our LF bar is smaller than our HP pool, because after the third hit your LF is caput,

In fact, I don’t like to use DS as a defensive asset, (sometimes I prefer to take some hits instead of burning my life force), instead i use it as a offensive one,

Anyway i’d love to see some “bleeding” on the attack #1, (or poison),

Oh… and dark path needs to be more reliable and faster,

In that case the necromancer would be a real attrition class,

And +1 to this,

Rennoko.5731:

I think it is a misconception that we have more viable builds than other classes. Our builds are just more normalized across the board than other classes. When a class has a really REALLY strong build (like shatter mesmers), all the other builds are looked at as not viable, because of that. It is very hard to like a mesmer build that doesn’t have 30 points in their fifth tree.

It isn’t an issue of viability, but rather of balance. If all the classes builds were as balanced as the necro (in traits), they would have the diversity we do. Of course the flip side of that is, those classes better get ready for the nerf bat on their favorite builds. Based on that state of the game conversation, it looks like thieves sub. builds are finally going to get the hammer in WvW, which should encourage them to branch out and try other things, same with the shatter mesmers if they change that build.

As far as DS is concerned, no matter how you are using it, the problem with it is that it restricts excellence. There is only so many things you can do in DS (4 things to be exact). No matter how good you are, you can only do those 4 things. You lose access to utilities, passive healing, activing healing, ultimate, your normal UI screen.

On a personal note, I don’t mind all that, except the loss of the UI. Losing information on my debuffs/buffs makes me want to cry. I can’t even make an informed decision on if I should drop out and transfer/eat conditions because I don’t know what is on me.

They did mention they were going to look at cast times with something like the ele heal, I wish they would look at reducing just maybe 1 to 3 of our longer cast time abilities.

If they are interested in increasing ‘play’ in a class, such in the way described, you need to have access to some fast twitch abilities that aren’t locked out so much due to being stunned, chilled or w/e, in situations you only have micro seconds to do something reactive.

A skill like Epidemic, because of how massively dangerous it can be, is justified in its cast time. And often you’ll suffer the target dying before it lands if you aren’t careful. But some other stuff doesn’t need to be so long I think. Enfeebling blood, Spinal Shivers, Dark Path, etc.

It’s also clear how much community feedback factors into some changes. If Necros are content with being ‘almost there’ and some trying to pooh pooh anyone that still sees some issues, maybe just because one person’s particular build or chosen playstyle is doing fine, then that is where we will always remain.

HiSaZuL.2843:

Mesmer clones don’t have same AI… its blatantly obvious in more ways then one.

They dont need to (leveling a mesmer now), all they are worth is maybe 1-2 attack and just shattering them, unlike minions they can run on uneven terrain. Also infinite constant supply.

Kiriakulos.1690:

…Does anyone at ANet actually play this profession?

Build diversity? Sure, 3 ~5 different builds, because we don’t have ANY that actually stand out so we still have to puzzle a way to make Necro work.

Making Utilities more useful? Necros are already pretty much defined by what utilities they have equipped, I’d say more-so then weapons.What are our more famouse builds, Well-bomber, MM, Conditions->Epidemic… do you have any idea how freaking constricting that is? A build being defined by 3 of the 10 skills available and all of them with high cooldowns and long casting times?

Using DS when low in health? Now I know no one there knows how to actually play as Necromancers or against.

And when I get to immobilize not supposed actually stop people, that pretty much kills our only way to actually maintain damage with dagger, our only high DPS weapon.

Of all things, the most painful thing they said was “using DS when low on health”. My heart sunk when I read that. Seriously that’s how they think that DS is supposed to be used, half a year after the game’s release?

Sorry boys. It is becoming clear 100% fact now that Anet does not have anyone that plays the necro to any serious extend. They might play the necro for 5 mins for fun, and then pop back on their favourites thief, ele or mes.

Obviously they don’t have anyone reading this forum neither. I mean they don’t even need to play necro. Just by reading this forum they should know very well that DS isn’t used this way.

: Sad panda :

Have to realize these guys aren’t as good as the top sPVP players. And therefore don’t know the strengths and weakneses to the same degree, other than what the community tells them, and whatever they can make out of all their internal data tracking about who is playing what and w/l records and such.

Then even in PVE/WvW they can have the requisite skill to understand the class in those modes, but that still isn’t enough if you don’t have people playing it every day for an extended time frame. And where the issues aren’t exactly the same. It takes becoming familiar with every aspect to really be able to see the fine tuning that needs done. It’s obvious just by looking at how many weapon sets are failures across every class that not enough time was able to be done for this prior to release. Now that the dev team is even smaller, post release, its still not able to get done.

Kardiamond.6952:

@Bhawb

And yet a Warrior whirlwind and one shot all our minions.

Yes, those super powerful warriors that are a requirement on every good PvP team… oh wait. All you need to do against a warrior is hit him with your CC before he comes in close, unless you are bad and miss your golem charge, you will win every fight with a warrior. Why? Because warriors are in a terrible place in PvP right now.

Terok.7315:

Sometimes I wish you and Bas were right. I would love to use minions.

I am right, minions are one of our best 1v1 builds, especially in the current boon-heavy meta.