Guild Wars 2

In current form the Death Shroud skill Tainted Shackles is too strong. I don’t mind the AOE Torment damage or the AOE immobilize, but it needs to have a longer cast time.

Currently you can cast Tainted shackles and do anything else while it plays out. with a 1/4 second cast you cannot really be interrupted, it doesn’t take any appreciable time to cast, and it works even if you drop death shroud or get stunned once cast. This makes countering this powerful ability nearly impossible and makes using it a no-brainer.

My Suggestion: Change the cast time from 1/4 second to 3/4 second or even a full second. Give a chance for it to be interrupted and use the cast time to help time gate it’s additional DPS a little bit.

This is the perspective of a WvW player mind you. I have no idea whether or not this is considered ok in sPVP but in WvW it is an insanely powerful ability no matter what build the necromancer is.

Are you baiting? We have enough long cast time abilities we dont need another.

If you don’t mind AoE torment damage and AoE immobilize, than why you think it should have longer casting time?

Sorry, but to me it makes no sense at all. There are a bunch of skills in this game that has as low casting time and can’t be countered by just going out of range.

This is a terrible idea. You can already dodge roll the end effect, leaving you with a whopping 3 stacks of torment, and that is it. You can also get out of range pretty easily, especially in group scenarios where the Necro can only stay near one person.

Is it strong? Sure. Does it need nerfing? Hell no.

sorrow.2364:

If you don’t mind AoE torment damage and AoE immobilize, than why you think it should have longer casting time?

Sorry, but to me it makes no sense at all. There are a bunch of skills in this game that has as low casting time and can’t be countered by just going out of range.

Because after testing it out for quite awhile it’s incredibly good and has nearly zero downside towards using. By comparison Life Transfer can be a powerful ability but isn’t near as useful if you are not power spec and you can be interrupted. Tainted Shackles isn’t as overtly powerful so I wouldn’t want it to be interrupted and go on cooldown, but at the same time the immobilize is really really strong in WvW and the damage is essentially completely free with it’s cast time.

Whether in a group vs group battle, 1 vs 1, or small havoc squad it’s a really strong ability regardless of your spec.

If I cannot laugh and cannot flame, i cannot make a constructive answer!

It’s a joke, right ? Necro’s Torment is already the slowest to stack UP to 3.

In a coordinated team, a venom thief is WAY better to apply torment: once, in tpvp, I was mid and took 16 stacks from 4 enemies in no time, because of a thief. They can apply 3 to 4 stacks instantly (EDIT: ok not instantly but felt like it) and spread that ability to teammates…

A huge spike on one person is generaly better than mild damage on everyone. The only way a necromancer could be scary in this case, is if he was able to spread these stacks with Epidemic. Thank god this skill is unreliable, and fail even when the target isnt dodging or obstructed… =_= Please nerf us.

The only time I felt “wow, this is really really strong” (as in, maybe needs tuning), was against other Necromancers that had minions (or pets in general), as not only do they take full stacks and happily keep moving around, but also always eat the immobilize and damage at the end.

However, I’ve 1v1ed quite a few necros since the patch. I don’t actually remember the last time the Immobilize landed (it is so easy to dodge) unless I didn’t really care about it or was already out of dodges. It is very easily avoidable, and is not OP at all; in fact I am very impressed by how balanced a brand new ability is.

Ralathar.7236:

Because after testing it out for quite awhile it’s incredibly good and has nearly zero downside towards using. By comparison Life Transfer can be a powerful ability but isn’t near as useful if you are not power spec and you can be interrupted. Tainted Shackles isn’t as overtly powerful so I wouldn’t want it to be interrupted and go on cooldown, but at the same time the immobilize is really really strong in WvW and the damage is essentially completely free with it’s cast time.

Whether in a group vs group battle, 1 vs 1, or small havoc squad it’s a really strong ability regardless of your spec.

Nearly zero downside?
It stacks only 3 torment, which is laughable at best, so I think it is not the problem.

Then there is the AoE immobilize and damage, which is, by far, the easiest effect to predict and dodge, second only to the elementalist’s Dragon Tooth.
You don’t only have an huge green spectral bind with the Necromancer yelling “prepare to dodge”, but you can also completely cancel the effect through going out of the skill range.

Zero downsides? I wouldn’t say that.

Speaking as a power necro this skill is marginally useful as-is. Increase the cast time and I doubt I’d use it at all…

Or increase the cast time and give it a decent direct damage coefficient when the immobilize hits. Then let Life Transfer apply a 1s bleed per hit so that’s useful for condi builds. I hate dead skills. They should all be useful for all builds. Maybe in differing ways, but useful never the less.

It’s only 4.5 stacks of bleed on a 40 sec base cooldown

The Immo. is dodged fairly frequently due to the very obvious binding link between me and my enemy.

It is a good ability, it is a fun ability, it is not an overpowered ability.

It’s our only way to properly kill a thief, and you wanna nerf it? Go figure. Longer cast time, would make it junk since people will find easy ways to not get hit with it.

I think too many other profession players have their preset counters to necros that are now obsolete or are not quite as effective as they were (thankfully). It really is a matter of modifying the anti-necro strategies by the other professions and NOT to assign the abilities themselve into the mediocre cauldron we were. As Bhawb said above it is EASILY avoided….do so. Posts like these are more the “noise” that comes with people needing to change preset ways rather than a valid analysis of the change itself.

only thing i find if useful is running away from blobs when soloing or help catching trolling stealth thieves.

it’s a good addition to death shroud and actually helpful, far from overly powered though.

i don’t really know if op actually realized this but if you have long cast times in DS it means you won’t be able to use those skills at all. as it currently is, you can mostly just flash DS before it’s gone unless you’ve particularly specced for LF generation which is really sad.

not a good suggestion and no real basis for any change for this soon tbh.

I have to agree with some others here.

The last thing Necros need is longer cast times. Especially against the very mobile classes that are not going to sit still while you try to slow them down.

Someone else pointed out that if it was longer it would just burn your Life force that much quicker making the use of it less than desirable. That is completely true. I would just avoid using it at all if it became easier to dodge or interrupt, and burned more of that very precious Life force I am trying to manage.

Tobbygnome.6793:

It is a good ability, it is a fun ability, it is not an overpowered ability.

This, so much this. The ability is good, it is tons of fun to use, but no way needs nerfing.

If the cast time was increased it would be another ability i never use in a dps rotation for pve.

sorrow.2364:

Nearly zero downside?
It stacks only 3 torment, which is laughable at best, so I think it is not the problem.

Then there is the AoE immobilize and damage, which is, by far, the easiest effect to predict and dodge, second only to the elementalist’s Dragon Tooth.
You don’t only have an huge green spectral bind with the Necromancer yelling “prepare to dodge”, but you can also completely cancel the effect through going out of the skill range.

Zero downsides? I wouldn’t say that.

This is a skill you didn’t even have shortly ago that can force a dodge and cause extra damage, both in an AOE. It’s cast time is almost nothing. No, there are no real downsides to it.

While it’s true it is easy to dodge in a 1 vs 1, WvW very much is not about that. If you read my post this thread is in regards to WvW. And in WvW not only will you have a billion other things to dodge and worry about, you will have multiple necromancers using this ability and others who use abilities that synergize with it. Example of this synergy is Ring of Warding and wells, which is currently being used constantly these days.

Draehl.2681:

Speaking as a power necro this skill is marginally useful as-is. Increase the cast time and I doubt I’d use it at all…

Or increase the cast time and give it a decent direct damage coefficient when the immobilize hits. Then let Life Transfer apply a 1s bleed per hit so that’s useful for condi builds. I hate dead skills. They should all be useful for all builds. Maybe in differing ways, but useful never the less.

As a power necro the usage of the skill would be in combination with your wells. Both Axe and Dagger have viable skills that can set up the landing of the immobilize unless they cleanse it or dodge. Dagger specifically already has an immobilize that this can stack with used with good timing.

Enemy immobilized in wells = dead enemy. This wouldn’t be a skill I’d give up utility skills for, but as an extra freebie it can still be used effectively for a power build. Any torment damage is just extra. Especially since if you are using life transfer you can just qued Tainted Shackles up before it for more damage and a possible immobilize.

WvW has never, is not, and will never be balanced, period.

Its nice to see that the counterproductive ideas didnt leave the forums while i was at the seaside.
If anything, TS needs to be instant so that it can be used as a defensive peeling tool instead of just another lockdown…
Like if you dont have a passive condi clear, a strong active/reactive condi clear and 2 stun breaks/a stun break and stability in pvp vs a mesmer necro or warrior, you deserve to die by standing in their burst.

Seriously, learn what they say about people in glass houses.

As i have achieved more a state of PvE excellence, ankitten ow moving towards high end PvP… i have something to say to any and all that will ever try to nerf/tone down any necromancer skill.

Play high end PvP rank 50+, preferably towards 60 for one day… then you will see what it is all about.
High end PvP is so much more different, and necromancer doesn’t have a lot of room in it.

Mobility and stability in high end allows strategies that are insane… run as a unit, bunker up before engagement… CC focus fire, then run as a unit.
Basically before you focus fire 1 person, by bunkering up i mean… you will hit and all you will see is immune, dodge, evade, immune, invulnerable, block block stealth dodge immune, and then you see you can’t move at all for the 5 seconds until you die… don’t blink now or you’ll not see the direction they all ran as a unit.

Necromancer can only focus fire, they can’t bunker up as other classes can even while having high damage or follow the unit… or escape the unit…

If you think fear – terror + burning + bleeding is OP, hahaha my friends… hahaha… you have seen nothing yet.

One moment they are one location point 10 seconds later they charge OUT OF STEALTH + ranger trap + moa + warrior stun into 100B + mesmer shatter and thief cleans out the rest, 10 seconds whiped team… and they stealth charge again so you can’t see which way they went.

Nemesis.8593:

As i have achieved more a state of PvE excellence.

*norn intro song in background* There will be songs of my leginnd, notu letze goa kill a bear, but not just annu bear, A ARMOIRE *badum tshhh* BEAR!!!

On a serious note dont declare such things, you cannot be perfect in fighting AI because only a good written ai can be that, not to mention some stuff about your mesmer "tutorial" that is pretty much trying to bend that side of the light armor caster coin into the necro...
So please Nemesis do use forum time for productive or funny/troll posts, not norn/asura boasting.

Andele.1306:

Nemesis.8593:

As i have achieved more a state of PvE excellence.

norn intro song in background There will be songs of my leginnd, notu letze goa kill a bear, but not just annu bear, A ARMOIRE badum tshhh BEAR!!!

On a serious note dont declare such things, you cannot be perfect in fighting AI because only a good written ai can be that, not to mention some stuff about your mesmer “tutorial” that is pretty much trying to bend that side of the light armor caster coin into the necro…
So please Nemesis do use forum time for productive or funny/troll posts, not norn/asura boasting.

If i wanted to brag i would fill the forums with screenshots of how many people thank me on a daily basis. People that know me know i don’t do that, the only reason i said that is because i felt that it was necessary.
I’m not just “a random necromancer” inviting people to do high end PvP before saying we are OP… that was the message i wanted to send.

Besides… after all the tests i’ve done, and all the things i know… i’m quite happy with how much i know about PvE necromancer.

ps: quick to jump me eh Andele ?
Also… my mesmer is doing fine, i use it… i enjoy it, i do great damage with him… as advertised. I don’t know what is wrong ? Except shatter mesmers in fractals that still do no damage and die in 1 shot… Oh well…

Nemesis.8593:

Also… my mesmer is doing fine, i use it… i enjoy it, i do great damage with him… as advertised. I don’t know what is wrong ? Except shatter mesmers in fractals that still do no damage and die in 1 shot… Oh well…

Phantasm mesmers are whats viable in fractals and even support/full shatter mesmers are fine. You must just be unfortunate with the quality of mesmers you get in your groups.

Nemesis.8593:

I’m not just “a random necromancer” inviting people to do high end PvP before saying we are OP… that was the message i wanted to send.

Besides… after all the tests i’ve done, and all the things i know… i’m quite happy with how much i know about PvE necromancer.

ps: quick to jump me eh Andele ?
Also… my mesmer is doing fine, i use it… i enjoy it, i do great damage with him… as advertised. I don’t know what is wrong ? Except shatter mesmers in fractals that still do no damage and die in 1 shot… Oh well…

I know what you wanted to say, you just said it in a way fitting for british politics talk (oh how topical based on living story) and not in a way to help and/or make a dimwit try to play a necro and see how squishy we are and how much cc hurts.
And no i never even implied you are even close to a bad or even medicore necro/pve player, just dont do statements like “PvE excellence”, noone wants nor respects that (and if you are sleepy/annoyed/bored just curse or troll people by derailing a thread like we currently are and i often do about something off topic X3 ).
Also about the mesmer thing we could make its own thread (or youtube comment chain), but whatever.

spoj.9672:

Phantasm mesmers are whats viable in fractals and even support/full shatter mesmers are fine. You must just be unfortunate with the quality of mesmers you get in your groups.

Memo form everyone ever – mesmers caused damage is medicore-good enough for most encounters depending on build, they are in fractals because reflections are op in there and people dont know how to jump/need portals, so utility over damage (reason why you only see 1 mesmer, but up to 2 guardians, thieves in speedruns and sometimes even a necro/ranger/ele depending on path of Arah AC CoE or CM.

Last little note for this not to be move, Nemesis do you actually agree with me that it should be a instant cast?

In WvW, if you can actually get the current channel off means either:

1) You hit them with CC first, leaving them unable to dodge/counter CC without a stun-break ready or stability. Cast time means little at that point.

2) They are out of endurance to dodge the effect. Cast time means little at that point.

2) Or there are so many people there on your side that the enemy can’t tell what you are doing in the middle of all effects spam going off….and the agony DoT+immob means very little at that point, as they are already getting AE CC+direct damage nuked, which will often kill them before you can even get into range, go all the way into DS, and start your animation. Note how this is already long enough to make it near worthless.

Basically this ability only has real value in small engagements that are drawn out enough for it to matter, or when someone is doing something wrong. It’s low enough on the balance totem pole that it’s difficult to even contemplate the point of making it weaker.

Andele.1306:

Memo form everyone ever – mesmers caused damage is medicore-good enough for most encounters depending on build, they are in fractals because reflections are op in there and people dont know how to jump/need portals, so utility over damage (reason why you only see 1 mesmer, but up to 2 guardians, thieves in speedruns and sometimes even a necro/ranger/ele depending on path of Arah AC CoE or CM.

I know this. Although mesmer isnt needed in fractals. The smoothest groups are usually 2 guards 3 warriors for high fractals. Necro is never taken for any speedrun path. LH ele can be taken when team comp supports it effectively with fire fields and melee frost spirit ranger is ok in dungeons where pet and spirit arent going to die constantly. I personally would never take a thief over a warrior in speedruns for damage due to their selfish nature with no buffs and only providing stealth which isnt needed for a competant groups to skip trash.

Anyway back on topic. Tainted shackles is far from op. Its balanced and the only change that should happen is making it instant cast (although its not that important). Id also like to see more cast time reductions, pretty sure devs said they would be looking into that but they havent yet.

Ralathar.7236:

This is a skill you didn’t even have shortly ago that can force a dodge and cause extra damage, both in an AOE. It’s cast time is almost nothing. No, there are no real downsides to it.

Putting aside that you have to get into range and stay there for the duration, so what if it’s relatively low investment? It’s hardly the only ability in the game like that.

spoj.9672:

Necro is never taken for any speedrun path.
Anyway back on topic. Tainted shackles is far from op. Its balanced and the only change that should happen is making it instant cast (although its not that important). Id also like to see more cast time reductions, pretty sure devs said they would be looking into that but they havent yet.

Necro for Ghost/turrets on AC and pretty much every CM helps quite a lot with mob control, since the bosses tend to be cheezy with one shots but still count LF as hp thus waste them on you and the annoying snipers/necros/dogs/gravelings are turned at least close to a normal pile of hp, thing is they aint run that much for gold/record kills/any general reason whatsoever). We are a poor mans situational mob control guardian with noone of the boons (ele being the reverse and rangers middle of the line with strongest max possible healing with the duration and finishers on spring with pets for additional meat). Overall not optimal for speed runs (nor is a thief as you stated), but people still tend to pick em up, only profession i never really saw in a speedrun is a engie for some reason…

The only problem I see with it is that it is un-dodgeable (the torment). The cast time is fine in my opinion, but since it is completely uncounterable, that is really a different problem. To me it is like old epidemic, which used to be uncounterable. The difference being epidemic didn’t hurt the target, while tainted shackles does.

I agree with the assessment that there really is no downside to using it. May as well just pop it every time you are in DS, which is sort of meh. I would prefer it had more risk/reward. So if you want to up the cast time and up the damage I am all for it. Or make it stack up to 5 as a channel, I am okay with that too.

40 second CD for a whole 3 stacks of torment is nothing. If Scepter 2 was on a 30 second CD people would be complaining that it is UP, and it wold be. It is about the second part of the ability, which immobilizes and deals fairly decent damage, that is important, and not easy to land.

Bhawb.7408:

40 second CD for a whole 3 stacks of torment is nothing. If Scepter 2 was on a 30 second CD people would be complaining that it is UP, and it wold be. It is about the second part of the ability, which immobilizes and deals fairly decent damage, that is important, and not easy to land.

I do agree with this. The immobilize pulse from tainted shackles is prob. the easiest thing to dodge I can think of. The timing on it is very easy to predict, and one dodge roll is all you need to avoid it.

There IS a marginal risk in using it, ever noticed that when you use it around a lot of enemies, 5 giant links come out of you like you are an alien spaceship? Ye that can be intimidating, i’ve noticed, more often so in WvW, that as soon as i use Shackles in a group/zerg i often times get instantly CCd, targeted or even focused.

Rennoko.5731:

The only problem I see with it is that it is un-dodgeable (the torment). The cast time is fine in my opinion, but since it is completely uncounterable, that is really a different problem. To me it is like old epidemic, which used to be uncounterable. The difference being epidemic didn’t hurt the target, while tainted shackles does.

The Torment is a very small amount of damage (equivalent to 4.5 bleeds at most), and you can avoid 2 of the 3 stacks by breaking the tether with a mobility skill if you want. Or you can just dodge the immobilize.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Rennoko.5731:

The only problem I see with it is that it is un-dodgeable (the torment). The cast time is fine in my opinion, but since it is completely uncounterable, that is really a different problem. To me it is like old epidemic, which used to be uncounterable. The difference being epidemic didn’t hurt the target, while tainted shackles does.

The Torment is a very small amount of damage (equivalent to 4.5 bleeds at most), and you can avoid 2 of the 3 stacks by breaking the tether with a mobility skill if you want. Or you can just dodge the immobilize.

I understand that, but how many effects can you think of in game that cannot be dodged or invulned to avoid? There used to be a few, and they are all gone now. It is just inconsistent. I guess you could consider the tether break as the only way to break it, but it still just seems strange to me.

I do agree that the graphical effect paints a big bullseye on your kitten though. I always get focused everywhere I got regardless, because most people are smart enough these days to recognize the necro for what it is, which is completely unable to avoid focus.

The torment can be dodge rolled just like any other skill?

I want to clarify that the tainted shackles immobilize on it’s own can be reasonably easily avoided, albeit it might cost you a dodge that you may need.

However Tainted Shackles when done by multiple necro’s staggered and/or combined with pulls, other CC, lines/rings of warding results in a death sentence. You’d be pretty much hosed before even considering that you’ll be eating wells too.

This is a team game and many things gain in power significantly with teamwork. Stability can stop pulls and lines/rings of warding, but immobilize/cripple/chill must be cleansed and chain immobilizing is very common.

Not only that but in the intense WvW game making someone waste their dodges, get immobilized, or be forced out of position often meets with fatal results if you are fighting good opponents.

WvW is not balanced around that type of play, this is why ‘Structured PvP’ exists. Please don’t critically analyze class balance based off a battlefield game mode.

Tobbygnome.6793:

WvW is not balanced around that type of play, this is why ‘Structured PvP’ exists. Please don’t critically analyze class balance based off a battlefield game mode.

Otherwise lightning field and a plethora of other abilities would be up for heavy nerfing.

Tobbygnome.6793:

WvW is not balanced around that type of play, this is why ‘Structured PvP’ exists. Please don’t critically analyze class balance based off a battlefield game mode.

WvW actually showcases more teamwork in more situations. While small scale is important, large scale is the ultimate driver of victory and as you going higher and higher tier the importance of large scale combat grows beyond just being very important and becomes nearly completely dominant.

While tactics can do a great deal to help turn the tide of battle, and execution can likewise do so, class composition has become increasingly important over the games life span as gimmicks such as turtling and arrow carts have been balanced out.

The majority of WvW is definitely balanced around large scale combat even if havoc squads do have their roles.

The developers have already admitted fault in not properly anticipating the popularity of WvW and that is why they have promised to have 3 sets of balance rules from here on out. sPVP is not the only mode classes are balanced around and you will see more individual mode balance changes as time goes on, as they have said themselves.

You are correct, however my post has nothing to do with that. My one and only point is that WvW is not a controlled PvP environment, it is a battlefield with unbalanced group numbers fighting each other with or without siege in or out of towers using level 1-80 characters and wearing any assortment of gear in the game.

This is not the correct environment to base judgements of class balance off. You said you have no idea whether or not this is considered ok in sPVP, as far as i know, it has been unmentioned.

To add, yes if something is so undeniably broken in WvW that it needs to be changed on a class, it will be, but not insignificant and strictly minor issues like a spell being 1/2 a second too long in cast time.

Tobbygnome.6793:

You are correct, however my post has nothing to do with that. My one and only point is that WvW is not a controlled PvP environment, it is a battlefield with unbalanced group numbers fighting each other with or without siege in or out of towers using level 1-80 characters and wearing any assortment of gear in the game.

This is not the correct environment to base judgements of class balance off. You said you have no idea whether or not this is considered ok in sPVP, as far as i know, it has been unmentioned.

To add, yes if something is so undeniably broken in WvW that it needs to be changed on a class, it will be, but not insignificant and strictly minor issues like a spell being 1/2 a second too long in cast time.

I can understand you saying that it is more difficult to ascertain judgements. But to say that the environment is not the correct place to judge a classes effectiveness in that environment is pretty illogical honestly.

If someone was so flippant to sPVP balance people would be outraged lol. Yet sPVP actually has a far harsher meta than WvW ironically, with many more builds and more classes left in the dust.

What he is meaning is that WvW is not a place to find balance. They cannot possibly balance WvW because of the enormous number of variables. It is chaos, and it can’t ever be fully balanced. All they can really do is make sure that there aren’t too many things that are overtly abusive.

It is illogical to totally ignore class balance in WvW, but to have it as the focus for such clutch gameplay balances is also illogical. Now i am pretty much just paraphrasing my own and Bhawb’s recent posts.

That is all i can add to this discussion, enjoy.

spoj.9672:

Are you baiting? We have enough long cast time abilities we dont need another.

This is so sad… ‘cause it’s true.

Are we not allowed to have skills that do damage with a 1/4 cast time anymore? Elementalists are in for a rude awakening.

An elementalist complaining about necros… i saw everything on this forum,

Rennoko.5731:

I understand that, but how many effects can you think of in game that cannot be dodged or invulned to avoid?

Precedence doesn’t matter, only the strength of the effect and the available counterplay matters. It’s a good thing to have variety in a game like this. In the case of Tainted Shackles, you basically can’t avoid the Torment, but a) the Torment is an almost meaningless amount of damage to begin with due to the low number of stacks and the slow application, b) you can end the effect early by making distance between you and the Necro, and c) you can dodgeroll at the end to dodge the immobilize. That’s plenty of counterplay. Actually, the ability gives the opponent some built-in “counterplay”: if the immobilize ends up going off, the Torment’s going to be dealing half damage.

All in all, it’s a good ability for causing havoc, adding another cover condition, and helping CC, but it has clear ways to deal with it.

Ralathar.7236:

Yet sPVP actually has a far harsher meta than WvW ironically, with many more builds and more classes left in the dust.

Sorry, I’m gonna have to grammar-kitten you on this: sPvP has a much more specific focus than WvW, with WvW explicitly designed to allow as many players as possible to participate in whatever capacity they are able and sPvP designed specifically for competitive play. It isn’t even a little bit ironic that sPvP would have a stricter meta. If anything, it’s the opposite of irony.

Bhawb.7408:

The torment can be dodge rolled just like any other skill?

You can dodge the pulse at the end that immobilizes, and you can break the tether, but if you are in range, you cannot dodge the torment stack applications. I seems to work similar to epidemic, in the sense that if you are in range, and you are a valid target (which means you are NOT buffed with the blue sword invuln icon like when you go into downed state), then you get the condition put on you.

Sure triple the activation time. Just double the dmg, double the torment, and double the immob duration. You don’t mind, right?