Guild Wars 2

I have been using epidemic since the start of the game and have always loved using it. Even when it was still a bit of a challenge to land an epidemic due to a 1 second cast time, now you have made it blockable, able to be dodged, can’t be used while they are in invulnerable and have to be in line of sight. I understand this “nerf” and agree with it completely because it leads to more intelligent gameplay. However now with all the new additions to the spell (which not many people where complaining about in the first place). It makes it really difficult to land a good epidemic now due to all the ways it can be avoided as well as mass AOE condition clear in this game. This has made the condition necromancer that runs epidemic not as viable which is incredibly unfair. There is a simple fix to it; reduce the cast time of the spell to 1/4 or 1/2 of a second cast (and possibly increase the cooldown by 5 or 10 seconds). Those changes would make it a higher success rate while still making it so the player has to pay attention with what is going on. It can still be avoided hence forth making it balanced. Anet in the future please balance out what needs to be balanced out instead of blindly nerfing/buffing things.

If any of you Necromancers are in favor of having epidemic keep the block aspect to it but reducing the cast time to 1/4 or 1/2 of a second please post and make this thread be heard.

Yes, Please change the cast time.

Before when epidemic couldn’t be blocked or dodged and you didn’t even have to be in LOS the 1 second cast time was fair (even though it was still difficult then to land a solid epidemic before condi clear). Now that all these were changed 1 second is just far too long in any competitive pvp match. It’s close to impossible to land a huge epi now.

I agree a simple fix for this would be just to slightly reduce the cast time.

Cast time needs to be reduced.

I agree with the nerf in some respects. Not requiring LOS was perhaps too good. However, big epidemics were still rare and hard to land.

1/2 cast time with a 20sec recharge rate would make for much better play.

I didn’t know that anything changed other than the LOS change, but I could tell from playing that something was up. My focus is WvW, not PvP, and I still find Epidemic to be quite useful and I get big epidemics off all the time, but every so often I notice its just a total fail when I try. I guess that’s the block? Honestly I’d be happier if a blocked Epidemic just recharged faster so I could cast it again sooner (oh how I hate seeing an enemy loaded with conditions and not be able to pop it onto everyone else around; I could care less about the cast time as I tend to stand with a buffer between me and my target when I’m WvW anyway.

I’ve always thought Epidemic needed a cast time reduction.

Edit: What’s the point of fixing the cast time if you increase the CD??? We are talking about a skill correction, not about a skill boost which requires some offsetting skill reduction.

Ya I believe 1/2 second cast time and a 20 second cooldown on Epidemic would make it a good trait but still balanced. It would force you to use it intelligently.

Agree with 0.25" cast time, but not because the nerf is “unfair”, rather because 1" cast time does not allow you to transfer some of the deadliest conditions like Fear or Immobilize due to their (usually) extremely short durations. Back when it had no LOS requirements and unlimited range we could hardly complain about the cast time, but with all the nerfs it’s gotten recently I would much rather make sure it does maximum damage and has a better chance of landing when you cast it, so I’d gladly trade off increased recharge for a 0.25" cast time!

Frankly, there is no reason to increase the CD just to warrant decreased cast time (come on guys, you don’t bargain away CD right away, you have to hardball this).

Seriously though, it shouldn’t need to have increased CD. A reduced cast time would simply bring it’s reliability more in line with what it used to be; it still retains counterplay but at a more realistic level for the caster.

I’m 100% against increased cooldown at the expense of any “buff”. That said, it would definitely be nice to epidemic fear.

I know the increased cooldown does not seem nice however you don’t want to make the spell overpowered because the goal is to keep the game balanced. I would hope that they would start off by just reducing the cast time to 0.25 or 0.5 seconds and keep the cooldown how it is, and then if epidemic is becoming too overpowered increase the cooldown slightly. (Adding 5 seconds making it a 20 second cooldown won’t make that much of a difference, especially if you trait making it a 16 second cooldown, all in all you lose 1 second). However I still think it should be taken in steps to see how it affects the rest of the game.

Reducing cast time merely brings Epidemic reliability closer to what it used to be, which wasn’t OP, while still keeping the counterplay they introduced with the ability to avoid getting hit by it.

Bhawb.7408:

Frankly, there is no reason to increase the CD just to warrant decreased cast time (come on guys, you don’t bargain away CD right away, you have to hardball this).

You’re assuming that we have some kind of bargaining power!

I’m pretty sure one of the reasons Epidemic has a 1s cast time so that we can’t turn our 20s CD single target instant cast fear into a 20s CD instant cast AoE fear with 600 radius, which is what it would be with a 0.25s cast time.

I’m not sure why you think just because it got nerfed/fixed that it is now underpowered. It is still pretty much a must bring for condition necros in tpvp. Yes it is harder to land now, and I can’t count how many times the conditions were cleansed right before it did land, but I feel that is counterbalanced with the low CD and the sheer strength of the skill in team fights. To keep it balanced at short cast times you’d have to significantly increase the CD (much more than 5s) and make it not be able to spread fear.

The reliability of Corrupt Boon OTOH is something that needs to be fixed.

The nerf/fix reduced reliability significantly though, and that is the problem. While I believe it was a good fix for consistency’s sake, reducing the reliability on an already semi-reliable skill isn’t good.

The only thing unreliable about it previously was if they cleansed their conditions (or died) in the 1s span from when you started casting it since it couldn’t even be dodged or LOS’ed before (which does happen quite a bit yes).

Reducing the cast time to something really fast like 0.25s would change the dynamic of the skill completely. It would be nearly instant cast and take no effort to spread conditions like crazy and would without a doubt in my mind be incredibly OP in team fights if nothing else is changed about the skill.

Is something like a slight reduction to a 0.75s cast time justified? I guess that depends on if you think the skill is underpowered and deserves a buff or not. I do not see anybody in this thread suggesting that even as currently implemented that Epidemic is underpowered.

Epidemic is not underpowered IF YOU CAN LAND IT. I land my epidemic often however that amount of times have dropped a significant amount due to all of the additions. In terms of Corrupt Boon, it now works nearly exactly the same which makes it just as unreliable.

I agree with the idea of not letting fear being spread by epidemic, that would just be a stupid idea and would make it way overpowered. Epidemic is a great spell but has a too low of a success rate right now due to just randomness that is incredibly difficult to anticipate or control.

Personally, I believe that Epidemic should be a 0.5 second cast and a 20 second cooldown; that is my point of view about how the utility should behave.

I said this before, but it is my hope that this Epidemic nerf opens up room for future buffs on other necro skills.

hai gaiz Schnigle here! :P

I don’t post often because I hate forums, but I had to sign in to support gibbwy’s post.

I don’t think people realize how bad or to what length this nerf to epi ruined the condi build because it isn’t just the LOS change. The mechanic is now very similar to corrupt boon (which most Necros also complained about, but we accepted it because it was still somewhat effective) in all areas save the fact you can evade on the AOE spread and not take anything for it. (IE it is worse than corrupt boon mechanically.) The percentage it is actually going to connect effectively is weakened by a pretty good amount.

Also take into account the fact a lot of the way we could put conditions on so well was we would combo it off of someone we would boon to spread more conditions. Now we are popping a broken mechanic on top of a broken mechanic so the actual setup in a team fight for AOE sometimes won’t even be there or relevant. Not only will the boon not connect now, but the epi won’t in certain scenarios so there is a chance we blow all our utilities save our elite with NO gain. (Yes “all” utilities because to be useful in PvP we are dumb not to run a res sig which has no dmg attributes.)

Some Necros used to be able to get by without running Master of Corruption, but now just to get half way decent cast effectiveness out of epi you are basically forced into it just for the extra small reduction u get on the CD thus killing build diversity within the build and the class for some.

At this point I don’t know many people that really bother running condi that much anymore NA because it just isn’t viable anymore and Necro class as a whole for viability in a team now is just not really there.

It is a shame really however, all of this could be corrected with Gibbwy’s suggestion so support and don’t hate till you test similar builds for yourself. Us Necros have had very little to hang onto since we got destroyed in beta so don’t take what little we have away that is viable especially when we are one of the most targeted classes in the game.

Signed most adorable Necro NA,
Schnigle

P.S. <3 Gibbwy

P.S.S. <3 all you other Necros

Yeah I don’t know what it is with those two skills, maybe it’s the projectile speed or something because I swear there were times I cast them and was CERTAIN that there was neither blind on me nor aegis on my target, they didn’t dodge, and it still didn’t connect!
Epidemic, however, is a lot worse off than Corrupt Boon, because it’s not just the fact that it might simply not connect that you have to worry about, but that you might be interrupted or the target becoming unavailable during its long cast time. (I can’t believe that coming from GW1 I now consider 1" cast time “long”! :P )Additionally, Epidemic targets effectively get 2 chances to dodge: they can dodge out of the aoe, but if the initial target dodges then NONE of t he secondary targets gets hit! That’s pretty bad for a utility skill, imagine if Mesmer’s Feedback bubbles failed if the guy at the centre of the aimed area got out of the way or stealthed!

Occasionally failing skills is acceptable on a quick-casting spammable autoattack skill, because what matters is your average DPS, not whether one individual attack connects, but on a utility skill, well, you use those to turn the tide of battle, to get out of scrapes or to ensure a kill. That’s why I suggested an increased recharge, because I would much rather have a utility that I KNOW will work when I need it to than one that I can pop twice every fight for a chance at increased aoe dps!

Really good comments guys, keep it up. Lets have this thread heard. Been playing the past few days with epidemic still and it is much more difficult but still fun. I hope to see some changes to this spell. One of my friends came up with an interesting idea, let me know what you guys think. Epidemic on same cooldown, an instant cast but only transfers 3 conditions instead of all of them. I thought it was interesting, wonder what you guys think.

Gibbly.5480:

Really good comments guys, keep it up. Lets have this thread heard. Been playing the past few days with epidemic still and it is much more difficult but still fun. I hope to see some changes to this spell. One of my friends came up with an interesting idea, let me know what you guys think. Epidemic on same cooldown, an instant cast but only transfers 3 conditions instead of all of them. I thought it was interesting, wonder what you guys think.

While interesting I think in theory it wouldn’t work and would be negated somewhat by other classes like ranger with bond. Also you would have to worry about which actual viable conditions would transfer on the epi if someone was loaded up with a ton. (The target you cast epi on.) I would be inclined it would take quite a few test runs before half way viable. I like your original suggestion a lot more still because epi still is effective it just can’t be spammed as hard where it was abused in the past.

While epi was overpowered somewhat I don’t think it was the and all be all where Necro as a profession was OP. I honestly think this nerf was done in some ways to push us to utilizing the semi buffs we got last patch because they were being ignored since feardot was outright still the most viable spec. The fears are what makes the spec strong because it gave us some staying power in 1v1’s that we never had before. (Necro is not a 1v1 class typically.) The epi was just the lynch pin that held it all together in the team fight and when combined with those fears as the interrupts during a team fight and they could transfer them it just would wipe some lesser teams off the map. (Terror 50% dmg buff when a condi applied is very nice.) It wasn’t the only build for condi as you can run bleed bomb or a tankier condi, but it was the main one circulating for most.

The biggest problem with this nerf is the buffs last patch weren’t significant and they have still yet to contribute anything to the Necro to make it viable so when the lynch pin of the build is nerfed and we got nothing else to really trend to it makes it all way worse.

There is a reason why polling shows this class as the least played right now. We have nothing viable to really work with and to many bugged mechanics left unchecked. The one build we did have that was good just had its most stable utility nuked on it from the patch.

I really hope balancing in the future for Necro takes into account all aspects of how a nerf can effect a build not just the utility itself or we’re doomed. (Although it feels like we are doomed somewhat already.)

Seems fair to reduce the cast time, maybe even get rid of it entirely. The nerf was fairly harsh.

Apply the + condition duration bonuses to conditions applied by Epi to really punish people for letting you get the long cast off.

Any buffs to cast time must result in a nerf to the cooldown. It wasn’t so much of a nerf as it was a fix. It hasn’t nerfed any of my builds in the slightest, just made it so that I can’t use epidemic whenever I want.

I’ve been a condi necro from the start, and I reluctantly agre that the los epidemic change was needed. However, to off set the many changes to the skill, I am in favor of a small reduction to cast time. The cooldown is already suitable and should be changed one way or the other, but a cast time reduction would be welcome.

+1 for the LoS change needing a fix as it was OP when sieging. However in WvW I have pretty much given up trying to get an epi off on an “up” player – the number of times it misses because of the cast time + cleanse, cast time + down as it did previously was bad enough, now it has the added unreliability of being able to be dodged and blocked means I rarely hit with it. It’s a gamble rather than a calculated choice – is that guy going to be alive/in range/in the same place in 1s time? Players dodge and run away when getting focussed after all. I tend to use it on downed players almost exclusively now.

Let’s see.

Epidemic off cooldown….Check
Have LOS….Check
Target has tons of conditions AND is close to other targets….Check
1 second Epidemic cast isn’t going to be avoided….Check

I think Epidemic already has an operational cooldown already loaded. Not like the skill gets spammed now is it.

Swamurabi.7890:

1 second Epidemic cast isn’t going to be avoided….Check

I think Epidemic already has an operational cooldown already loaded. Not like the skill gets spammed now is it.

I would love to know how you can check that one off. Since most classes have multiple dodges, skills that give them dodge/block, invulnerabilities, passive invulnerabilities, on and on and on. (Vigor)

Also you cannot see their dodge bar, to know when their next dodge is up again, and can… maybe…. guess… if someone chained two dodges in a row like a kitten

I am with the poster just above now…. just focus on a downed player and use it on them… they can’t block it themselves or dodge it or cleanse it themselves. I have to ask people to politely not speed-stomp so this can happen.

After thinking about this a bit more though, I realized this is exactly what happen to (most) of the mesmer summon skills. They used to summon Izerkers on people without LOS, ignoring immunities/block/blind/dodges. They patched in the fixes a few patches ago and they wailed about it for a few weeks and eventually gave up… my prediction is that will happen the same way here.

The difference is…. an Izerker whirling you for 6k damage out of nowhere is quite a bit more devistating than a black swirl that doesn’t even damage you, and potentially does nothing/next to nothing to those around you.

I dunno if it was really needed considering the AOE cap, long cast time, the situation mechanics behind Epidemic being deployed (ie: it doesn’t blow people up on its own like a meteor storm, its a force multiplier for existing conditions) and then leaving the Vulnerability, plus the cool down still there so you get penalised even if it doesn’t work.

Its still fairly useful in open field for pounding people who overextend and then blowing up their surrounding friends, however, in keeps/towers (where it was an often used wall-clearer) the hit box of players is literally their feet and will be blocked unless they are all the way on the edge- despite 70-80% of the target being visible.

Aside from that, it gets blocked, dodged and misses about as much as Corrupt Boon… which is not a good thing and I’d like the hear the justification from Anet why and if they’ll ever have a look at conditions being as viable as power/crit- based damage.

For me, Epidemic was my play style. I would dive in, load up some conditions on somebody, maybe corrupt boon and pray that it works, and then epidemic. But playing this way requires balancing a bunch of variables and having a number of things occur for the strike to be successful. First, I have to be aware of player positioning as I am inherently diving into a dangerous area with multiple enemies. I have to load up the conditions and then start the LONG epidemic cast while 1) staying in range 2) target does not go down 3) one of the zillion condition removals doesn’t cleeanse everything off 4) I do not get interrupted. Now we have to add target stays within LOS, does not dodge, and does not block to the list. And the LOS thing is completely wonky with seemingly stumps in the ground preventing it from being successful even though 90% of the target is visible.

So, while I do get a successful cast off every now and then, ANet has indeed completely nerfed my play style. It just isn’t reliable enough to be much fun anymore. So I’m just hoping that they realize how profound the impact of this nerf has been and find some way to make it viable again.

Rennoko.5731:

Swamurabi.7890:

1 second Epidemic cast isn’t going to be avoided….Check

I think Epidemic already has an operational cooldown already loaded. Not like the skill gets spammed now is it.

I would love to know how you can check that one off. Since most classes have multiple dodges, skills that give them dodge/block, invulnerabilities, passive invulnerabilities, on and on and on. (Vigor)

Also you cannot see their dodge bar, to know when their next dodge is up again, and can… maybe…. guess… if someone chained two dodges in a row like a kitten

I am with the poster just above now…. just focus on a downed player and use it on them… they can’t block it themselves or dodge it or cleanse it themselves. I have to ask people to politely not speed-stomp so this can happen.

After thinking about this a bit more though, I realized this is exactly what happen to (most) of the mesmer summon skills. They used to summon Izerkers on people without LOS, ignoring immunities/block/blind/dodges. They patched in the fixes a few patches ago and they wailed about it for a few weeks and eventually gave up… my prediction is that will happen the same way here.

The difference is…. an Izerker whirling you for 6k damage out of nowhere is quite a bit more devistating than a black swirl that doesn’t even damage you, and potentially does nothing/next to nothing to those around you.

What I meant by my post is that you can’t balance Epidemic with an increased cooldown because in order for Epidemic to be effective there has to be several other factors that have to happen for it to work.

I’m sure that there’s stats on how many times Epidemic is used and actually transfers conditions. If players find that Epidemic isn’t worth adding to the skill bar because the skill isn’t working as the player intended then the Dev’s will make changes.

In GW1 most necro skills can cast right through walls. Vampiric Gaze and Dark Pact to name a few. That was, in a way, a necro speciality.

Gone were the good old days.

Epidemic used to have unlimited (?) range and no los. Targeting the grub in wvwvw from the other hill and watch the bags drop at your feet, that were the days

CHIPS.6018:

In GW1 most necro skills can cast right through walls. Vampiric Gaze and Dark Pact to name a few. That was, in a way, a necro speciality.

Gone were the good old days.

Sorry Chips, but as a GW1 veteran I have to let everyone know that casting through walls\objects was indeed possible for most spells. There were very few “spells” that fired a projectile which required line of sight.
But I agree, it is a real shame that those awesome gw1 mechanics are gone now. The biggest shame is that there are no curses any more.
DIVA

No need to discuss in the necromancer forums as no dev is reading/replying here anyways. But yes, epidemic in it’s current state is absolutely useless in WvW or PvP and so the condition based necromancer has been silently nerfed to death.

If any dev is reading this and can let us know that they are at least looking into this or if they are any future plans for this spell that would be really appreciated.

Also great ideas guys, keep them coming!

D I V A.6018:

But I agree, it is a real shame that those awesome gw1 mechanics are gone now. The biggest shame is that there are no curses any more.
DIVA

Yeah, Curses were my favourite gw1 skills too. The closest you can come to similar type of gameplay in gw2 is confusion mesmer.

manveruppd.7601:

D I V A.6018:

But I agree, it is a real shame that those awesome gw1 mechanics are gone now. The biggest shame is that there are no curses any more.
DIVA

Yeah, Curses were my favourite gw1 skills too. The closest you can come to similar type of gameplay in gw2 is confusion mesmer.

Very true… I wish we had a reliable source of confusion as well… It would be cool if we simply had more skills to choose from instead of having 5 solid weapon skills. That core mechanic is REALLY sucky in gw2.
DIVA

So been talking about the idea of a 1/2 second cast and a 20 second cooldown amongst a lot of necromancer friends I have in tPvP and so far it has been a really positive feedback. I know a lot of you would be against the idea of having a 20 second cooldown but it is still not that much; especially when traited it would only be a 16 second cooldown. I would take that any day over what it is now.

Your playing a single class that is completely defined by utilities from damage to everything else with weapons being 1/3 to 1/4 of your spec… and you want longer cooldown? Guess having tipple times of every other classes stun breaks no stability and half a day long cooldowns wasn’t enough. Lol.
And why are you all wasting time posting here? Anet never been either honest about necro or caring. They don’t even bother talking to this side of the fence. So what purpose does all this serve? I guess if one is miserable at least its not as bad in a company but that’s about as far as I would take it.

They read the forums, they just don’t post, so him posting here is getting his ideas (even if you don’t like them).

Bhawb.7408:

They read the forums, they just don’t post, so him posting here is getting his ideas (even if you don’t like them).

Lies.
My personal opinion is that it should not be blockable nor have a los. Dodge and invul are fine but blocks and aegises etc no.
So pretty much it should be as it was. 1 sec cast time so people that pay attention can dodge but can’t just sit behind a floating leaf with impunity.

HiSaZuL.2843:

Your playing a single class that is completely defined by utilities from damage to everything else with weapons being 1/3 to 1/4 of your spec… and you want longer cooldown? Guess having tipple times of every other classes stun breaks no stability and half a day long cooldowns wasn’t enough. Lol.
And why are you all wasting time posting here? Anet never been either honest about necro or caring. They don’t even bother talking to this side of the fence. So what purpose does all this serve? I guess if one is miserable at least its not as bad in a company but that’s about as far as I would take it.

No need to be an emo slash wristing necro, but you have to be realistic about how the spells work and the dynamics of the game. Before posting and being negative about other people’s idea, learn how the game works in the aspects of the game. The idea is not to make the spell overpowered but BALANCED. A spell with a 12-15 second cooldown (based on traits) with a 1/2 cast would be an incredibly powerful spell that would make the condition aspect of this game even more ridiculous which in tPvP is not necessary at the moment with the current “meta”. I encourage people to use their brains before posting about things they have no idea about; of course as always if you disagree with it, at least give a suitable resolution that way the thread remains constructive.

Please make this ability and corrupt boon unblockable.

Lowering the cast times would be nice too!

JonathanSharp.7094:

So, we do read the forums.

Right now we’re thinking this ability will go back to being unblockable, as will Currupt Boons. We still want you to need LOS to your target, however. We want these skills to have fun back/forth play on them, while being fair for both sides (the attacker and defender). Keep in mind, these abilities can still be evaded.

And thanks for all the constructive debate in here, great job!

Woohoo!! A dev feels safe enough to reply in the forums again! I feel so happy now!!

I think there is a bigger question here, Jonathan. When are you going to appear on the Necro Podcast? And how big a fan are you of the show? I have no ulterior motive in asking those questions ;P Those are more important than is epidemic nerfed!!!!

Haha!

All kidding aside, I am glad to hear the blocking mechanism will be removed. We did an all-necro fight against a team with two guardians, and we had so many blocks it was ridiculous.

Thanks for taking the time to comment.

JonathanSharp.7094:

So, we do read the forums.

Right now we’re thinking this ability will go back to being unblockable, as will Currupt Boons. We still want you to need LOS to your target, however. We want these skills to have fun back/forth play on them, while being fair for both sides (the attacker and defender). Keep in mind, these abilities can still be evaded.

And thanks for all the constructive debate in here, great job!

Its not so much the fact that they’re blockable, but it is nice that you’re changing that. My problem with these two skills is the wonky invisible projectile and direction facing mechanic these skills have. It makes it very difficult to land these skills, and honestly it feels like I’m fighting the mechanics of the game rather than my opponents. In PVE this is much less of an issue obviously.

Maybe there is some internal reason or a game engine limitation which requires both skills to function like this. Both of these skills would be much more reliable and easier to use, and would go a long way in addressing this issue if they at least didn’t require you to face your target.

Its nice seeing a dev post here again. I would like to see more from you guys, but I can understand the lack of visible presence what with so many angry necros around here.

JonathanSharp.7094:

So, we do read the forums.

Right now we’re thinking this ability will go back to being unblockable, as will Currupt Boons. We still want you to need LOS to your target, however. We want these skills to have fun back/forth play on them, while being fair for both sides (the attacker and defender). Keep in mind, these abilities can still be evaded.

And thanks for all the constructive debate in here, great job!

Thanks for your response, it means a lot to the community seeing posts like this.

JonathanSharp.7094:

So, we do read the forums.

Right now we’re thinking this ability will go back to being unblockable, as will Currupt Boons. We still want you to need LOS to your target, however. We want these skills to have fun back/forth play on them, while being fair for both sides (the attacker and defender). Keep in mind, these abilities can still be evaded.

And thanks for all the constructive debate in here, great job!

Now that there is an confirmation that we are not forgotten, I will wait eagerly for the next patch to see the obviously broken necro downed state in pve being fixed. (See the thread for proof with empirical testing and math)

As for the epidemic… I never really felt the blockablity of this was the problem of corruption skills. It is the simple failing without any good reasons. (line of sight, dodge, block, miss, out of range, even if they falsely claimed to have failed because one of those.)

JonathanSharp.7094:

So, we do read the forums.

Right now we’re thinking this ability will go back to being unblockable, as will Currupt Boons. We still want you to need LOS to your target, however. We want these skills to have fun back/forth play on them, while being fair for both sides (the attacker and defender). Keep in mind, these abilities can still be evaded.

And thanks for all the constructive debate in here, great job!

Thank you so much for taking the time to give us a comment <3

Bas.7406:

I think there is a bigger question here, Jonathan. When are you going to appear on the Necro Podcast? And how big a fan are you of the show? I have no ulterior motive in asking those questions ;P

^^^This

<3