Guild Wars 2

@ Lopez, I don’t mean to single you out or anything but, to your point of any build succeeding in a AoE PvE setting because build doesn’t matter – have you played with a thief before the increased radius of clusterbomb was implemented? AoE was a huuuuuuuuge pain in the kitten before the radius buff even though single target DPS was through the roof. I mean no offense but I think you’ve become a bit too spoiled playing a class that has access to a ton of AoEs, and thats just the thing: everything has a role, AoE on mobs is invaluable.

I do like your suggestion of going into well support over life siphon, in terms of personal preference I don’t like how siphon health works – even though in practice it works fine with this build, its a matter of personal preference. I’m generally not worried about trying to keep my health topped off to tank minor hits in PvE, im more concerned about the big hits for which I want burst heals, siphoning is of minor use there.

Lopez.7369:

…

I also think Nemesis is slightly undervaluing power in the video. It’s obviously not the ideal stat for condition necromancers, but the 200 power he’s not picking up is about 15 percent less direct damage. That’s not huge because of how poorly scepter and dagger scale with power, but it does make an impact.

I’m not trying to belittle or speak down to anyone here, but most of PvE is a math problem. In the case of this video, it unfortunately gets the math problem wrong. Some of the concepts Nemesis discusses, such as cleverly using Epidemic, are good and helpful, but a lot of the video is frankly misleading and mathematically unfounded.

Seriously now… i do a sustained DPS of about 30000 on 6 targets in a good scenario, and 200 power is going to increase my direct damage by 15% ?… What direct damage ?

Fear has a 20 second CD and lasts 3 second, it can not be counted towards “sustained DPS” and even if it is it would do about 1400 damage x 3 every 20 seconds, that is like… another 4200 damage ?… When you look at how much you do on AoE those numbers seem laughable… 900 DPS from burning on single target…

Mathematically unfounded… i have demonstrated everything that i have said, i also used the condition damage calculator that Hazno made (and he works with ArenaNet… and i already checked if the calculator is actually accurate, and it is)… then i use a normal calculator to multiply those values as required.

So unless you tell me that in a proper team composition it’s impossible to have 25 stacks of bleeding on a target, burning, poison, around 5 stacks of confusion and some torment every now and then… then my math is not flawed…

I do not understand why you push so hard to force the conditionmancer shine in single target DPS, when he can shine so easily in AoE and help others do higher single target DPS… much higher then you could ever do…

There’s a reason CoF p1 fast runs were not done with 4 condition necromancers and 1 mesmer… there’s also a reason why heavy AoE required fractals… in fact all fractals are not tackled with 5 glass cannon thieves…
I also believe that ArenaNet had planned that the build system would generate builds for various locations and scenarios in the PvE world… otherwise they should have just made us all power build 3 buttons GG.

You dismiss my video and math with “frankly misleading and mathematically unfounded”… you don’t really do that to someone’s work unless you are trolling. You don’t just come and say “well that’s not good cause… you know”.

The passive healing you gain in some cases is actually greater then your normal healing from consume conditions… but overall it’s almost as if you had 2x consume conditions healing value. I would not dismiss that lightly…

I also took the time to add your burning and 25 stacks of bleeding and fear damage together… and even if you somehow manage to get 6k sustained DPS single target, which is sort of impossible… (because fear is not permanent) it’s still lower then what a power build would do…
Fear is not something that goes into the category of DPS… it’s a 3 second DOT every 20 seconds… that’s really low DPS uptime, for something to enter the sustained DPS calculations it has to be at least half the time up, and it’s not…

Oh god if i ever see some necromancer trying to do a CoF p1 fast run with “but i do fear… i = best DPS” i am going to kick him so hard his internet connection will go down.

I already said all of these in a my previous answer. So… this is going to be my last answer… i take the time to post actual facts calculate by condition damage calculator and i get “frankly misleading and mathematically unfounded”.

Seriously now…

Whether I’m “spoiled” or not, the point is that in many of the game’s challenging fights, AOE takes a secondary role. There’s really no reason to sacrifice a bunch of great single-target damage just because AOE can kind of make up for it, especially when the sacrifice is being made for a bunch of self-healing that’s completely unnecessary unless the necromancer is playing poorly.

Lopez.7369:

Whether I’m “spoiled” or not, the point is that in many of the game’s challenging fights, AOE takes a secondary role. There’s really no reason to sacrifice a bunch of great single-target damage just because AOE can kind of make up for it, especially when the sacrifice is being made for a bunch of self-healing that’s completely unnecessary unless the necromancer is playing poorly.

You are not the only one in the team mate… i would say that fractals 48 would go a lot faster, smoother, safer and more enjoyable if you cover all basis…

You need single target DPS, you need AoE DPS and you need a bit of proper tanking or proper support to ensure DPS uptime on both fronts…
It’s better to finish fractals 48 in 40 minutes… then to get to the end boss in 30 minutes and stay at it for another 20 minutes… or the other way around, barely get to the end boss with like 20 wipes and doing single target DPS on 2342342 mobs… just to reach the end boss and one shot him…

These values ARE exaggerated this time just to prove a point…

You don’t at all need the self-healing to survive in lv. 48 fractals.

You seem to be making this false dichotomy that a 30/30/0/0/10 build gives up a bunch of survivability and AOE damage for single-target damage. That’s false. It actually gains AOE damage on top of single-target damage, and the loss in survivability is negligible with proper play.

Again, taking 30 points in Blood Magic over 30 points in Spite just makes no sense. Taking Lingering Curse over Terror is mathematically inferior. Not taking Signet of Undeath is losing out on the best utility skill necromancers have for PvE.

Like I mentioned earlier, even if you don’t want to go into Spite, getting well traits is much better for group utility and survivability.

Really, your build essentially wastes half its traits.

Lopez.7369:

Whether I’m “spoiled” or not, the point is that in many of the game’s challenging fights, AOE takes a secondary role. There’s really no reason to sacrifice a bunch of great single-target damage just because AOE can kind of make up for it, especially when the sacrifice is being made for a bunch of self-healing that’s completely unnecessary unless the necromancer is playing poorly.

OR – they don’t want to play the same power DPS as EVERY OTHER CLASS, and want to play an interesting / different playstyle that involves massive AOE condition damage with and for group support and sufficient self-healing to make soloing dynamic and fun.

Because I’m getting a few messages based on this thread, here are the condition builds I would suggest for PvE:

Pure DPS: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=;00;3kHVB044RI-K0;9;4TT;0938A168;42;0K-F4aJG4LPd_LPd_k-F81-NYUsb183V7WD1IYN3T_0q-Fk1e;57V-1cV-9;9;9;9;9;0k0;3V6s5G

Support: http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=;00;4IVB044RI-K0;9;5T9J9;11683;037-2;0K-F4aJG4LPd_LPd_k-F81-NYUsb183V7WD1IYN3T_0q-Fk1e;57V-1cV-9;9;9;9;9;0k0;3V6s5k

The utility skills should be changing out a lot, but I’ve slotted the default options that are good in most situations.

I hope that’s helpful to some people. I’m seriously considering bringing back my guides after reading this thread.

Good video Nemesis, well thought out and explained like all your vids.

xD I’ve been reading this “discussion” and I’m sorta on the fence about 30/30/0/0/10 and 0/30/0/30/0. While I play the former most of the time, I have actually tried both and I have to say, both are just as effective. I agree 100% with Nemesis, don’t forget your party comp. But here’s the thing, if I’m in an organized party, and I know for a fact they know what they’re doing, taking 30/30/x is what I prefer, just because the condis I epidemic will last longer without the need for duration runes (I prefer damage runes), and I know my teamies are good enough to keep themselves up. I mainly run fractals on my necro, and always in an organized group, so there isn’t much need for me to be rezzing most of the time, the guard does it better, and should we find ourselves in a bit of a pickle I can just use my Undeath signet

Where I see Nemesis’ build being way more effective is in pugs, where you aren’t sure what sort of group comp you’re going to have, and the need to be in the thick of things, rezzing people is probably going to make you a more effective team player.

Neither of your build are “wrong”, they both have their place in the game. But remember that while damage is important, there ARE classes/builds which will definately provide better DPS than us, and the more we allow them to pile on that DPS the better. If I can let my zerkers stay alive 25% longer through mass weakness, chill, cripple, poison, etc, then I’m being an effective member of the team.

One of the major reasons I prefer the 30/30/x setup is that should I end up in a party comp with too much bleed stacking, I can quickly switch things up to a more hybrid/zerker build, just by changing gear.

Hello Nemesis,

Thank you for this new helpful build. Once again you’ve done great job for all the necro community
Simple , efficient. Great job dude

Sincerely – Your biggest french fan (Haha)

I also want to chime in and thank you, Nemesis, for the work and time you’ve put in on this guide. My own necro is level 26, a long way from endgame, but I’ve found your build advice very useful and I’m really starting to enjoy him.

What runes are you using? I only saw 3 runes of afflicted (or I missed the other three).

Thanks again Nemesis!

Sylpheed.5034:

What runes are you using? I only saw 3 runes of afflicted (or I missed the other three).

Thanks again Nemesis!

3x rune of the Kriat and 3x rune of the afflicted.

As for all those who were offended by going 30 into blood, there are some players who are not 100% selfish in there play style and feel taking along support for the party is actually helpful.

If my goal of max condition DPS is met by 30 points and i have a whole other trait line to go down, why not take skills that benefit myself and my party ? Instead we get the selfish players who think in just solo play terms, and not group makeup. Expecting a guard or another player to always worry about your glasscannon build just goes to prove the point of that mentality.

Thanks a ton for the very well thought out build Nemesis, i actually listened to the entire thing and totally understood the reasoning behind it all.

Theres nothing selfish about building full dps. Burning mobs down fast before they can do damage is more supportive than giving people a mediocre heal that keeps them alive for a few more hits before they die due to an inability to dodge.

But then I wouldnt run a condi build in pve because its just not good enough with either trait distribution.

Thank you Nemesis for this build. It’s my favorite of your builds. It’s well done and fits really well with my playstyle. I love the play and manipulation of the conditions and this works really well with the things I enjoy about it. Thank you again for the well-crafted guide.

I agree with Lopez in this one. Also, one thing I like about 30/30/0/0/10 is that you can change your gear and traits on the run in case you end up with another condition guy to avoid being useless or just for a single target situation (I prefer change gear&traits insted of hybrid setup approach).

Dire stats and scavengers runes are new interesting options… anyone taking either of those for PvE with this build now?

Dire seems more geared towards WvW, but the scavenger runes + Carrion gear instead of rabid may be interesting due to our already high vit. Has anyone run the numbers on this combo to see how it compares?

Just skimmed the video before replicating it and I have say…

Wow. That hits really, really hard (even with only Exotic stats). I was also trying out Epidemic on the champions during the final frenzy of Aetherblade farming and the mobs around the champs pretty much instantly burst into wet sacks of dying meat when all those conditions copied out to them.

I was able to pick up 3 piece of the Rabid armor from temples being flipped (yay Dragonite farming!), and the rest of the armor I picked up at the WvW vendor. Very impressed with its performance so far.

Thank you for your efforts – I wouldn’t have thought Precision was a good call for a condition build, but I do not argue with success. I hope I can take some of these insights with me to other classes as I tweak my alts .

LOL… I actually found the video while doing some research for my character last night via web searches, and then just now found this thread while scanning the site.

Great Video! Really apprecaite the time you put into it, and I look forward to using it myself

hey nemesis, how you doing, I’ve seen a lot of your videos and the like and I wonder if you could suggest a PvE Leveling wellomancer build or focused on daggers, thank you very much

Anet said they will buff the blood trait line. kitten! Lucky Nemesis! Lol. sincerely congrats Nemesis. Another great work.

Nemesis, thank you for this build. For a while I ran the hybrid, I spent 60 gold on the runes of divinity, tried the conditionmancer, and now I don’t like playing any other build or class.

I have not found a time when I wish I had direct damage, and as everyone else hates running conditions I tend to get the whole stack of bleeds to myself, and with the new condition floaters, it is beautiful seeing 3k bleeds everywhere.

I’m assuming the threat mechanics work on damage because with this build I do find myself focused so much more than before, and this kills faster than the other necro builds (for me at least). So that’s my only complaint.

On another note, I agree with going into blood magic. But I choose to use transfusion for spike healing the team every 40 seconds.

Once again Nemesis, thank you

Elitism is no way to play the game. After reading the comments, this is what I’m seeing. You can optimize if you like, or you can play how you want. A bit of this will determine how well preform. I respect Nemisis’s opinion and his videos have proven he has had some superior ideas. I don’t disagree with his build as it is a decent way to play. I Do however prefer 30/30/0/0/10. I have my reasons.

The parts I can’t agree with Nemisis are his choice of Sigils and disturbing lack of a stunbreak. Although I would never use sigil of corruption I can understand the appeal. If one thing goes wrong you can lose those 25 stacks in an instant. And this is something I’m not going to risk.

Stun breaks is another thing. I wouldn’t suggest running without one. Nemisis most defiantly has the skill to run in groups effectively without one, however for people with less experience with reading foe patterns or poor reaction time, I would not suggest running without one.

Actually I do tend to run well of power in my 3rd utility. Hate getting stun locked.

saxmachine.6024:

Actually I do tend to run well of power in my 3rd utility. Hate getting stun locked.

I know! it is just the worst!

I’m inclined to agree with Lopez on the build. Nemesis has done a good job with the video and has gotten so many things right. The build’s dps performance is mathematically inferior to 30/30 in good case scenarios (arguably).

Let’s look at the arguments for 10/30:
- conditionmancers excel at aoe
30/30 has higher condition durations, which means after spreading the conditions it takes longer before ticks start to drop off. Those ticks can not be refreshed (aoe) until epidemic is up again, so assuming most of the bleeding/conditions are necromancer conditions (and thus affected by his condi duration stat), 30/30 actually beats 10/30 at aoe. You can not look at a 25 stacks of bleeding only from the dps point of view (the calculator), but you have to take into account the actual damage that is ‘stored’ in the stack and waiting to tick, a.k.a. how long will those bleedings last before gradually dropping off. This gets even more important when looking at aoe, which arguably is the condimancer’s right to exist.
10/30 gains a bit of single target dps through siphons. With siphons not being triggered by condition ticks, there is no way to turn this damage into aoe damage.
30/30 has access to dhuumfire. As long as your group’s burning slot isn’t ‘blocked’ by a guardian or similar low dmg burning, this is a single target gain, that can be spread to be an aoe dps gain.

- 10/30 is there for team support
From what I see you gain a bit of siphoning. It is better at self-sustain, but that’s about it.
Both have access to Mark of Evasion.

So unless your group is blocking the slots for damaging conditions (pushing off long ticking bleedings and blocking the burning slot with their berserker burns), I’d argue that both are on par on single target dps, and 30/30 wins out on aoe dps.
The 10/30 is more forgiving and better at facetanking, plus offers a little more direct damage through siphon hits, but that’s about it for advantages.

I appreciate you guy’s interest in my build and your comments… i just want to point out that this build is a PvE build designed to fight monsters… not players.

For WvW i have a separate conditionmancer build, you can find it here.
For TPvP i also have a separate conditionmancer build which you can find here.

Lopez.7369:

The biggest flaw with the video and build is the assumption that burning is useless in group settings. That’s simply false. Burning is prioritized based on the source’s condition damage, so a well-geared condition necromancer’s burning will usually take priority over burning from the rest of the group.

Which is apparently not true https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI_iXF03VHo (unless the necro lied about his or ranger’s condition damage).

tazer.4982:

Lopez.7369:

The biggest flaw with the video and build is the assumption that burning is useless in group settings. That’s simply false. Burning is prioritized based on the source’s condition damage, so a well-geared condition necromancer’s burning will usually take priority over burning from the rest of the group.

Which is apparently not true https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wI_iXF03VHo (unless the necro lied about his or ranger’s condition damage).

I get to be wrong a lot… but I never lie.

Not sure why anyone would assume one condition follows a different set of rules when it comes to priority. First come first serve.

Tricare.2946:

Not sure why anyone would assume one condition follows a different set of rules when it comes to priority. First come first serve.

I read it somewhere longago that suggest duration stacked boon/conditions, including burning, healing, poison, etc, follows condition damage/healing power priority. And from observation, my necro really has a much higher chance of landing burning compare to my guardian. Hence the assumption.

Now that it proves to follow FIFO priority but given how often burning appear on my screen, I still think Dhuumfire is worth taking.

tbh, I don’t get these arguments. It’s just two different build set up. Heck, just two condition builds and necros are going crazy. I don’t know what would happen if given 4,5 guardian builds.

Tricare.2946:

Not sure why anyone would assume one condition follows a different set of rules when it comes to priority. First come first serve.

Actually for a long time, and not sure if it is still there, the Wiki said something to the effect, that a burn would always take the highest available condition damage coefficient, and just apply the damage to whoever had the burn ticking.

So if someone had a weak burn and someone else had a strong burn in the queue, the weak burn would in fact use the stronger burn players condition damage, and just pass that damage back to the weaker player.

It doesn’t work this way, but I do remember historically at some point it was listed that way. The wiki isn’t exactly the best tool for accuracy though.

Rennoko.5731:

Tricare.2946:

Not sure why anyone would assume one condition follows a different set of rules when it comes to priority. First come first serve.

Actually for a long time, and not sure if it is still there, the Wiki said something to the effect, that a burn would always take the highest available condition damage coefficient, and just apply the damage to whoever had the burn ticking.

So if someone had a weak burn and someone else had a strong burn in the queue, the weak burn would in fact use the stronger burn players condition damage, and just pass that damage back to the weaker player.

It doesn’t work this way, but I do remember historically at some point it was listed that way. The wiki isn’t exactly the best tool for accuracy though.

Just checked. It’s still there. Probably where I get that idea from.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Effect_stacking#List_of_duration-stacking_effects

Really a shame GW2WIKI isn’t anywhere near its predecessor. Maybe I’d update that page when I got the time.

Rennoko.5731:

Tricare.2946:

Not sure why anyone would assume one condition follows a different set of rules when it comes to priority. First come first serve.

Actually for a long time, and not sure if it is still there, the Wiki said something to the effect, that a burn would always take the highest available condition damage coefficient, and just apply the damage to whoever had the burn ticking.

So if someone had a weak burn and someone else had a strong burn in the queue, the weak burn would in fact use the stronger burn players condition damage, and just pass that damage back to the weaker player.

It doesn’t work this way, but I do remember historically at some point it was listed that way. The wiki isn’t exactly the best tool for accuracy though.

Oh so you read it on the Internet? It must be true then…

Tricare.2946:

Rennoko.5731:

Tricare.2946:

Not sure why anyone would assume one condition follows a different set of rules when it comes to priority. First come first serve.

Actually for a long time, and not sure if it is still there, the Wiki said something to the effect, that a burn would always take the highest available condition damage coefficient, and just apply the damage to whoever had the burn ticking.

So if someone had a weak burn and someone else had a strong burn in the queue, the weak burn would in fact use the stronger burn players condition damage, and just pass that damage back to the weaker player.

It doesn’t work this way, but I do remember historically at some point it was listed that way. The wiki isn’t exactly the best tool for accuracy though.

Oh so you read it on the Internet? It must be true then…

The internetz never lies.

Tricare.2946:

Rennoko.5731:

Tricare.2946:

Not sure why anyone would assume one condition follows a different set of rules when it comes to priority. First come first serve.

Actually for a long time, and not sure if it is still there, the Wiki said something to the effect, that a burn would always take the highest available condition damage coefficient, and just apply the damage to whoever had the burn ticking.

So if someone had a weak burn and someone else had a strong burn in the queue, the weak burn would in fact use the stronger burn players condition damage, and just pass that damage back to the weaker player.

It doesn’t work this way, but I do remember historically at some point it was listed that way. The wiki isn’t exactly the best tool for accuracy though.

Oh so you read it on the Internet? It must be true then…

And you obviously don’t read at all. Or at least not the posts you make sarcastic comments about. Re-read the parts that I’ve bolded, and especially the parts which I’ve underlined.

Rennoko said nowhere in his post that it works that way because the wiki says so. If you want to play smart… (eh…smart-kitten I guess), make sure that you don’t make yourself look like a fool instead.

Same goes for Brando, who just jumped on the bandwagon without properly reading the post himself.

I enjoy your videos Nemesis but I think sometimes you try too hard to come up with “different” builds. Creativity is a good thing and should be embraced, but in this case its just false advertising.

There is no practical reason to go 30 into blood with an optimized PvE build, period. 30/30/x/x/x will always be the best setup, simply for the stats and traits available for damage. Necro support simply isn’t good enough to trait for, and the best traits for support can be obtained by only going 10 deep in Blood anyway.

To be honest, looking at how detailed were the examples that wiki mentioned you’d really think someone tested that thoroughly. Maybe it initially was the case, but got changed in some ninja patch?

@Stx, maybe if you’re obsessed with raw power damage, but it’s a condition build.
It is also not a support build like many seem to imply, Nemesis clearly said that support is a secondary role and 30 in blood is for better survival, period.
I guess it really comes down to people’s playstyle, I used to play a Dhuumfire build for a short time and while it was OK I still like this one more.
And if I feel I want to play more power dependant class I get my warrior :P

Saturn.6591:

Tricare.2946:

Rennoko.5731:

Tricare.2946:

Not sure why anyone would assume one condition follows a different set of rules when it comes to priority. First come first serve.

Actually for a long time, and not sure if it is still there, the Wiki said something to the effect, that a burn would always take the highest available condition damage coefficient, and just apply the damage to whoever had the burn ticking.

So if someone had a weak burn and someone else had a strong burn in the queue, the weak burn would in fact use the stronger burn players condition damage, and just pass that damage back to the weaker player.

It doesn’t work this way, but I do remember historically at some point it was listed that way. The wiki isn’t exactly the best tool for accuracy though.

Oh so you read it on the Internet? It must be true then…

And you obviously don’t read at all. Or at least not the posts you make sarcastic comments about. Re-read the parts that I’ve bolded, and especially the parts which I’ve underlined.

Rennoko said nowhere in his post that it works that way because the wiki says so. If you want to play smart… (eh…smart-kitten I guess), make sure that you don’t make yourself look like a fool instead.

Same goes for Brando, who just jumped on the bandwagon without properly reading the post himself.

Oh I read his post all right. However, I was referring to anyone that read the wiki or the information anywhere else and took it as fact.

Do some testing on your own, find things out for yourself. That’s the reason I helped him with his video, testing the burn on a guard.

Stx.4857:

I enjoy your videos Nemesis but I think sometimes you try too hard to come up with “different” builds. Creativity is a good thing and should be embraced, but in this case its just false advertising.

There is no practical reason to go 30 into blood with an optimized PvE build, period. 30/30/x/x/x will always be the best setup, simply for the stats and traits available for damage. Necro support simply isn’t good enough to trait for, and the best traits for support can be obtained by only going 10 deep in Blood anyway.

I kept saying for months… there is no best, only best at…

In the video, if you watched most of it, you will see some facts and math calculations that show… that even though you don’t apply the burning to a target yourself, you can still spread it, with YOUR condition damage attached. So you lose ONLY the single target burning damage… which is so small, it’s negligible…

The survivability of the build is not to the taken lightly either… have you tried the Tower of Nightmares with this build ?… It’s like a piece of cake… with the hybrid or the glass cannon you will encounter difficulties… not with this build though.

You take constant damage in the tower… and the build offers constant heal…
Sadly we don’t have more dungeons like these so that the build shines more, everyone likes to hide around the corner and spam burst skills… because you can do that in dungeons, it’s just sad…

Tricare.2946:

Oh I read his post all right. However, I was referring to anyone that read the wiki or the information anywhere else and took it as fact.

Do some testing on your own, find things out for yourself. That’s the reason I helped him with his video, testing the burn on a guard.

Yeah, this morning when I woke up and was laying in my bed, I actually suddenly realized that you could have meant it this way. And I was like “dang, I hope nobody has read my post yet” xD. Meh. It’s just that I can’t stand the kind of behaviour I mistakenly accused you of, and I was tired. I’m sorry.

Thank you Nemesis, very well thought out video, and I have been running this build exactly and have had so much fun with it. I read the other comments and I get what they are saying, I think this build and their variations are viable, depends on the person and their play style. I don’t solo, I compose a party where we all have our part and when I play my necro to it’s full potential all my team mates agree, they wouldn’t change a thing. Looking forward to seeing more from you as the state of the game changes.