Guild Wars 2

The bleed formula was changed from .05 +42.5 to .06 + 20, which means you need over 2000 condition damage to break even. They announced that you’d need 700ish condi damage to break even. Nerf number one.

They removed built-in condition duration from traits and gave nothing in return. Nerf number two.

They gutted our bleed on crit trait to 33% chance. Nerf number three.

Epidemic has a 13½ cooldown, up from 12 seconds. Nerf number four.

Consume Conditions now blinds us, nerfing our damage output. Nerf number five.

Plague is unusable due to the stupid changes. Nerf number 6.

But hey, we can get to like 35 bleed stacks and do slightly more damage than we did before, so at least there’s that.

Was condi ever a thing in PvE?

condition necromancer is unviable in all game modes now. Kind of like Power Ranger pre rapid fire patch.

lujate.5432:

Was condi ever a thing in PvE?

It was pretty good in high level fractal pugs where stuff usually lived long enough for a Condi Necro’s AoE damage to shine. And they did better than most zerker specs at ranged fights, which there are a lot of. But they certainly weren’t part of the meta and they certainly didn’t belong in speedruns.

Where are you getting that bleed formula? The dev post here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/June-23-Specialization-Changes/first

Says it’s .075+26. That’s only 220 condi damage to break even.

Abnaxis.4593:

Where are you getting that bleed formula? The dev post here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/June-23-Specialization-Changes/first

Says it’s .075+26. That’s only 220 condi damage to break even.

Check the patch notes for today.

Bleeding, torment and confusion were lowered.

Maybe we can get our original Barbed Precision and Mark of Blood back!
Jk, never gonna happen…

Well, at least other classes get to keep their damage formula for burning, it’s not like those can be stacked for 8k/tick now.

Captain Unusual.9163:

Abnaxis.4593:

Where are you getting that bleed formula? The dev post here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/June-23-Specialization-Changes/first

Says it’s .075+26. That’s only 220 condi damage to break even.

Check the patch notes for today.

Indeed. The new one is 22+0.06*cdmg
break even point is 2050cdmg.

Afya.5842:

Captain Unusual.9163:

Abnaxis.4593:

Where are you getting that bleed formula? The dev post here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/June-23-Specialization-Changes/first

Says it’s .075+26. That’s only 220 condi damage to break even.

Check the patch notes for today.

Indeed. The new one is 22+0.06*cdmg
break even point is 2050cdmg.

Where are you getting this number?
From what I can tell in the patch notes the new damage is: 2+(0.3*Level)+(0.075 * Condition Damage)

Where are you getting the .006*cd? and at level 80 it becomes 26 not 22….
so it would be 26 + .075*cd
not 22 + .06*cd

On the bright side, that 2050 CD is quite doable if you run alongside a PS warrior…

On the less-bright side, you’re still only talking 9 DPS per stack extra on a ~130 DPS bleed, even in these ideal conditions, with full might and banners :\

One of these days I will figure out the source of all the hate for conditions

So they nerfed bleeding, conf and torment at last second! hah, so only classes with burning are now a viable condi classes.

Its actually weaker than I thought it would be. I’m not getting NEARLY the bleed stacks I did before and not only that poison isn’t making up for it.

i have ~2000 cd solo with pizza and a crystal and the damage in the field against mobs is pretty nice, most of the base stats are awesome too.

The only thing that i’m missing and am surprised by is that no condi-duration has been added to base stats, previously with curses i could easily run over +100% condi duration (meaning it capped at 100) for all conditions however now i’m capping at about +75%.

Still time to find epic combo’s though (pretty happy i don’t have to take spite for extra condi-damage anymore and can instead use soul reaping).

Bleeding:

The formula for this condition has been rescaled to account for the new behavior of damaging conditions and to put more focus on the condition damage stat.
New damage over time: 2 + (0.25 * Level) + (0.06 * Condition Damage)

at level 80 : 2+ 20 + (0.06* condition damage)

The bright side of it is that it’s style enough to kill yourself with Plague.

Mahalleinir.4073:

i have ~2000 cd solo with pizza and a crystal and the damage in the field against mobs is pretty nice, most of the base stats are awesome too.

The only thing that i’m missing and am surprised by is that no condi-duration has been added to base stats, previously with curses i could easily run over +100% condi duration (meaning it capped at 100) for all conditions however now i’m capping at about +75%.

Still time to find epic combo’s though (pretty happy i don’t have to take spite for extra condi-damage anymore and can instead use soul reaping).

If intothemists is correct, now without might, the only possible way to get over 2000 conditional damage is full ascended sinister gear with infusion. Even pizza/crystal isn’t enough.

I’m currently at 2100 condition damage exactly. With no food/utility, krait runes, and a malice sigil. No stacking sigil or might either.

That will put me at 2100+250+100+70 +300 = 2800 max with full might and stacks.

Edit: however with no duration you pretty much NEED 100% uptime of food/utility to maintain a decent stack of conditions on anything.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

I’m currently at 2100 condition damage exactly. With no food/utility, krait runes, and a malice sigil. No stacking sigil or might either.

That will put me at 2100+250+100+70 +300 = 2800 max with full might and stacks.

Edit: however with no duration you pretty much NEED 100% uptime of food/utility to maintain a decent stack of conditions on anything.

2100 is way more than 1087*1.3 (armor/weapons are supposedly 30% more stats) + 100 (runes) = 1540. Does condition damage have a base higher than 0 now? Where’s the other 600 coming from?

Soooo….they went back on the condition damage buff as well….really….I’m just at a loss of words right now. They started out so strong with reaper then it’s like they looked at it, said “what have we done?! We made necros viable now!” And then just started back pedaling from there.

As if you didn’t know that was going to happen. When they first previewed Reaper, did you not pay attention to Rubi and her reference to the off camera activities?

Yeah I noticed the shave from .075 to .06 as a ranger.

Before they announced the .075 I was thinking it would need to be ~.07 to come out favorably. .075 seemed pretty nice. .06 is lame.

Condition necro was never good in pve.
Actually necro itself was never good in pve either.

I dunno, I just ran around Silverwastes for a while then moved to Frostgorge. Didnt have any problems with my Condi build. If anything its working even better now.

Im liking this patch so far

try it in the live build first guys I’m noticing discrepancies I can’t explain

I don’t know where you got your number but before the patch I had 1899 condi damage with full rabid gear, pizza and crystals. Now after logging in with lingering curses and same setup im up to around 2.1k without might. Bleeds are ticking way higher then usual. On lv80 bosses I could maintain 5-6k bleeding ticks en have seen spikes as high as 9.4k ticks. When vuln spiked above 20 and full might stacks. I’m ready for my first 5 digit bleed tick!

Was doing SW event and was abusing Epidemic on targets with massive bleeds and burns, saw some burns ticks well over 12k…

Gexim.3289:

I don’t know where you got your number but before the patch I had 1899 condi damage with full rabid gear, pizza and crystals. Now after logging in with lingering curses and same setup im up to around 2.1k without might. Bleeds are ticking way higher then usual. On lv80 bosses I could maintain 5-6k bleeding ticks en have seen spikes as high as 9.4k ticks. When vuln spiked above 20 and full might stacks. I’m ready for my first 5 digit bleed tick!

Was doing SW event and was abusing Epidemic on targets with massive bleeds and burns, saw some burns ticks well over 12k…

Pretty much my exact experience here. Been working Epidemic like it’s…an epidemic…

Curious Gex, what’s your build and Utility Skills set up? I use Epidemic, BiP, and Spite Signet (due to Signets of Suffering in the Spite Line).

Necro feels stronger than ever. Only problem is that mobs lose aggro too soon. Can’t pull enough enemies.

Can I ask what builds you guys are using now?

Overall if you can epidemic some burn stacks our dps rocks.

Burn will obviously be nerfed into oblivion within a few days, but it is fun while it is here.

Bleed dps is improved, but you need duration utilities/food to get big numbers. Switching to staff seems to be a total loss in dps now. I open with staff then swap and never look back.

I was getting 5k bleeds on average, ticked up to 8k at one point, about 900 dmg from poison too. I think we are actually in an ok place in PvE now. PvP is a little more problematic.

Zaroua.2714:

The bleed formula was changed from .05 +42.5 to .06 + 20, which means you need over 2000 condition damage to break even. They announced that you’d need 700ish condi damage to break even. Nerf number one.

They removed built-in condition duration from traits and gave nothing in return. Nerf number two.

They gutted our bleed on crit trait to 33% chance. Nerf number three.

Epidemic has a 13½ cooldown, up from 12 seconds. Nerf number four.

Consume Conditions now blinds us, nerfing our damage output. Nerf number five.

Plague is unusable due to the stupid changes. Nerf number 6.

But hey, we can get to like 35 bleed stacks and do slightly more damage than we did before, so at least there’s that.

Hey, you can use condi duration food and make Consume Conditions blind you for longer!

There’s a build I’m running which kinda takes a little more of a selfish necro role again, however you can still transfer conditions from allies and help them out that way. Nevertheless, currently sitting on 1800 condition damage with full exotic gear, with food, potion, and the might you get from blood is power/signets of suffering it goes up to 2400 condition damage and 1800 toughness. (Runes of the undead).

http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgQBpAKYA7g~

Faction.4013:

Gexim.3289:

I don’t know where you got your number but before the patch I had 1899 condi damage with full rabid gear, pizza and crystals. Now after logging in with lingering curses and same setup im up to around 2.1k without might. Bleeds are ticking way higher then usual. On lv80 bosses I could maintain 5-6k bleeding ticks en have seen spikes as high as 9.4k ticks. When vuln spiked above 20 and full might stacks. I’m ready for my first 5 digit bleed tick!

Was doing SW event and was abusing Epidemic on targets with massive bleeds and burns, saw some burns ticks well over 12k…

Pretty much my exact experience here. Been working Epidemic like it’s…an epidemic…

Curious Gex, what’s your build and Utility Skills set up? I use Epidemic, BiP, and Spite Signet (due to Signets of Suffering in the Spite Line).

I’m running full rabid gear, krait runes, bursting and corruption sigils on both weapon sets to reach 200% bleed duration on scepter auto with pizza and crystals. Utilities are BiP, Epidimic and Corrosive Poison Cloud. Elite I swapped back to golem for now because plague is basically suicide with the condis that Im pumping out. Loving the blood magic trait for the siphons too. Usually I start in staff to drop marks and transfer BiP condis, then epidemic, swap to scepter and auto away. Corrosive Cloud is nice AOE poison for 5x 3 stacks too!

I dont think conditions really got nerf, in terms of coefficient probably, but conditions now stacks up to 1500 times… so i think this makes condi nercro totally viable in pve now, just imagine 100 stacks of bleeding and 50 stacks of burning and poison

So I’m the only one who sat at 1.2k+ condition damage (now 1.5k condition damage) and got a nerf to my bleeding damage, doing lower than before? lol >.>… my poor bleeding. you have failed me.

:(

I have full exotic rabid armor & weapon, with ascended rabid accessories. Condi damage is now 1.5K without any buff.

Are all these posters above having ascended gear with malice infusion?? Anything below seems to be nerfed.

Duration also got a small hit without passive trait from spite.

btw what specialization do you guys take? Curse is a no brainer. I think spite too for dhuumfire because now burning is quite powerful but expect it to be nerfed. The 3rd, I think blood for mark of blood plus more siphon here and there.

Sinister Exotic weapons & gear (Aristocracy runes) + Sinister Ascended backpiece/trinkets/rings/amulet and I have 2k Condi. Though I still have a Sigil of Bursting equiped, but still.

idk how that’s possible. sinister has the same condi damage as rabid and I can only achieve 1.5k from gears. I can get 2k from might and food and stuffs but overall it’s a nerf to mine.

If not because I have my personal story on my necro I’d be on other classes already.

you must all be playing a different game than I am. my full sinister necro is rocking the condition damage. burns for over 2k and bleeds almost to 4k in some fights. everything is melting.

roachsrealm.9284:

you must all be playing a different game than I am. my full sinister necro is rocking the condition damage. burns for over 2k and bleeds almost to 4k in some fights. everything is melting.

I don’t get it either also are the burns and bleeds simultaneous or just 2 potentials?

Kevin.5980:

I dont think conditions really got nerf, in terms of coefficient probably, but conditions now stacks up to 1500 times… so i think this makes condi nercro totally viable in pve now, just imagine 100 stacks of bleeding and 50 stacks of burning and poison

Wow … I didn’t know Necros could stack bleeding 100 times …

The new cap doesn’t matter at all. All that matters is how good each individual profession is at applying conditions. And we necros sadly still suck at that (unless we transfer conditions).

roachsrealm.9284:

you must all be playing a different game than I am. my full sinister necro is rocking the condition damage. burns for over 2k and bleeds almost to 4k in some fights. everything is melting.

hmmmm. We only get one stack of burning from dhuumfire.

2000 burn = 131.5 + 0.155* condi
1868.5 = 0.155* condi
condi = 12054

4000 bleed /20 stack (fair?) = 22+0.06* condi
178 = 0.06* condi
condi = 2966

So yeah I think we are playing a different game.

Just messing around on the indestructible dummies with around 8 stacks of might and less than 10 vuln my bleeds are hitting for almost 5k granted, theres no burning because in order to maintain that you cant get burning up to a decent level. It seems like a dps loss to apply burning honestly. But with 25 stacks of might and 25 vuln my bleeds are slightly over 6k which is pretty nice. My poison even hit 900 lol

Zalavaaris.5329:

Just messing around on the indestructible dummies with around 8 stacks of might and less than 10 vuln my bleeds are hitting for almost 5k granted, theres no burning because in order to maintain that you cant get burning up to a decent level. It seems like a dps loss to apply burning honestly. But with 25 stacks of might and 25 vuln my bleeds are slightly over 6k which is pretty nice. My poison even hit 900 lol

I have been playing around in PvE a bit, and find that with corrosive poison cloud and just my normal poison application, I can stack enough poison to more than make for the lack of burning. I’m in agreement that it feels like taking time to apply burning with life blast just feels more like a DPS loss than anything now, and with as many transfers as we have, and as much burning as other classes put out, we don’t really seem to need it haha.

Well i didnt mean a necro could do that, but just imagine in wvw or boss fight, where conditions could effectively stack much more than that, like several class applying conditions together its gaming changing for conditions players. Maybe not so much in necro prospect, but as compared to previous patch as to dmg conditions is capped at 25 or duration(main reason why people dont use conditions in pug) i think this patch would make necro bringing more team support in pve instead of killing it.

Kevin.5980:

i think this patch would make necro bringing more team support in pve instead of killing it.

It’s a buff in open world content for sure, but open world content is 100% trivial and not worth talking about.

In 5 man groups, bosses and trash die so fast now that a condi Necro doesn’t have time to stack up all his conditions and Epidemic them off.

You guys mind if i join the conversation ?

I’ve seen a lot of hard cold facts and accurate calculations around this thread, yet all of them are relative to/compared to the current berserker meta which is possible only in the context of corner stacking & bad AI/gameplay design.

In other words… did you guys honestly expected condition damage to be transformed into something that would match corner stacking bursting ?… This is not CS to one shot each other all over the place…

It would be wise to take into consideration how these changes will interact with proper PvE content, which we may get in HoT.

Conditionmancer was always about AoE, epidemic was always the highest hitting skill in the game in theory and with the removal condition stacks, it just became practice…

Epidemic is now the highest hitting skill in the game, period…

power builds – single target/AoE burst
condition builds – single target sustain/massive AoE sustain
… and thus, we all have our place in the game #balance

Nemesis.8593:

You guys mind if i join the conversation ?

Epidemic is now the highest hitting skill in the game, period…

lol…

Epidemic is now the highest hitting skill in the game, with these following qualifications:

1. Only in zergs of greater than 10 people
2. Only against targets that last longer than 45 seconds
3. Only against adds, does 0 damage to main targets

I suppose it is marginally useful for lane fights like VW, but it does 0 damage at most boss fights…. hardly the “hardest hitting skill in the game, full stop”

Nemesis.8593:

You guys mind if i join the conversation ?

I’ve seen a lot of hard cold facts and accurate calculations around this thread, yet all of them are relative to/compared to the current berserker meta which is possible only in the context of corner stacking & bad AI/gameplay design.

In other words… did you guys honestly expected condition damage to be transformed into something that would match corner stacking bursting ?… This is not CS to one shot each other all over the place…

It would be wise to take into consideration how these changes will interact with proper PvE content, which we may get in HoT.

Conditionmancer was always about AoE, epidemic was always the highest hitting skill in the game in theory and with the removal condition stacks, it just became practice…

Epidemic is now the highest hitting skill in the game, period…

power builds – single target/AoE burst
condition builds – single target sustain/massive AoE sustain
… and thus, we all have our place in the game #balance

Actually I have to disagree this time. Necro PvE condibuilds are bad. Engi and Guardian PvE condi-builds are pretty decent to frigging strong. For one because burning is ridiculously OP right now, and additionally Necros just apply bleed and poison way to slowly compared to other classes getting 6 or more stacks of bleed with a single skill. And then bleeding was hit with the nerfbat too while poison damage was made way too low… If the balance on applied stacks per profession and bleed vs poison vs burndamage was actually good, Condis would be viable in PvE.

After playing the patch for the last couple days I’m more inclinded to agree with Nemesis. While we don’t stack bleeds as quickly as other classes do, ours stick around for longer and hit harder. While burn damage is maybe a little high right now, I don’t necessarily see that as a problem because necros can multiply that same burn damage through epidemic.

For years now, Necro has been referred to as the king of conditions, but Anet never really made clear what the meant. I think their answer is finally starting to crystallize through our expanding condi transfers and boon corruption capability. Including our added support and condition damage multiplier through epidemic, I feel as though condimancer synergizes with other classes and playstyles better then before. We may not have top condi damage, but that isn’t necessary due to the sheer utility we bring to condition manipulation.

Part of the problem currently, as Nemesis points out, is the content we are playing is outdated. Enemies rarely have boons to corrupt and don’t use many conditions. However, in the Silverwastes we have bosses that torment, poison, and use large stacks of bleeds. I think ANet is moving towards PvE content where condition management will be more important, I just hope they also add PvE content where there is more opportunity to boon corrupt as well.

Nemesis.8593:

You guys mind if i join the conversation ?

I’ve seen a lot of hard cold facts and accurate calculations around this thread, yet all of them are relative to/compared to the current berserker meta which is possible only in the context of corner stacking & bad AI/gameplay design.

In other words… did you guys honestly expected condition damage to be transformed into something that would match corner stacking bursting ?… This is not CS to one shot each other all over the place…

It would be wise to take into consideration how these changes will interact with proper PvE content, which we may get in HoT.

Conditionmancer was always about AoE, epidemic was always the highest hitting skill in the game in theory and with the removal condition stacks, it just became practice…

Epidemic is now the highest hitting skill in the game, period…

power builds – single target/AoE burst
condition builds – single target sustain/massive AoE sustain
… and thus, we all have our place in the game #balance

epidemic is generally unchanged. The cap is still 25 stacks but now burning and poison can stack. You have to rely on other classes to stack those. Necro can stack poison but that mostly comes from utilities and the stack isn’t very high.

For other conditions to stack that high, it is usually boss content. And to benefit from epidemic, there has to be adds. Therefore I think the actual “buff” on epidemic is limited. It’s a great skill as before but it didn’t change much.

The buff to condi necro in this patch I think comes from better self mighting, and dps gain from vuln.

Vorgryn.9145:

After playing the patch for the last couple days I’m more inclinded to agree with Nemesis. While we don’t stack bleeds as quickly as other classes do, ours stick around for longer and hit harder. While burn damage is maybe a little high right now, I don’t necessarily see that as a problem because necros can multiply that same burn damage through epidemic.

For years now, Necro has been referred to as the king of conditions, but Anet never really made clear what the meant. I think their answer is finally starting to crystallize through our expanding condi transfers and boon corruption capability. Including our added support and condition damage multiplier through epidemic, I feel as though condimancer synergizes with other classes and playstyles better then before. We may not have top condi damage, but that isn’t necessary due to the sheer utility we bring to condition manipulation.

Part of the problem currently, as Nemesis points out, is the content we are playing is outdated. Enemies rarely have boons to corrupt and don’t use many conditions. However, in the Silverwastes we have bosses that torment, poison, and use large stacks of bleeds. I think ANet is moving towards PvE content where condition management will be more important, I just hope they also add PvE content where there is more opportunity to boon corrupt as well.

“Stays longer” is bad because it also means it takes longer to get the damage out (so many short stacks >>>>>>>> 1 long stack), and our bleeds definitly don’t hit harder because the damage-modifier is the same across all professions. You are being deceived by the tooltip-damage numbers, they don’t show the damage per tick but the full damage applied at the end of the duration. Meaning the only reason our numbers seem higher is because of the duration, which as mentioned before is actually bad in terms of damage. If bleeding had an additional debuff like poison, long duration would be good, but it is a raw damage-condition like burning, and as we can see by how insane burning currently is the “high damage low duration” condi is far superior to the “low damage long duration” condition. For the Necro’s bleed to actually do anything without buffing the other classes they’d propably have to make a “applied bleeds do double damage” trait, and even then burning would do more than twice the damage bleeding does. The only thing bleed has over burn is that it is supposedly “more readily avaiable”… only that Necros bleed-application cannot hold a candle to eg. engis or even warriors. And in the Engis case, their burning does 8k per tick after 4 seconds of ramp up and their 12+ stacks bleed only clock in for like 1.2k. Try stacking 12+ bleeds in around 2-3 seconds as a Necro. you can’t, not even close. And Engi does all that in like 3 skills.