Guild Wars 2

MisterWonka.8796:

I may have actually found a way to make the previous meta build somewhat competitive at the cost of about 4000 hp and almost no lifeforce gain in comparison to before.
…
Maybe it’s not that terrible of a nerf after all.

So… same build, but -4k hp and no life force?
Sounds like the definition of a terrible nerf to me :P

Sun Lian.4075:

How hard do you think it is to stack bleeds?

I already tested in a 1v1 with an engi that knows what he’s doing and he says the same, it’s not really a damage nerf but you just might need a bit different build or skill rotation in order to make sure that you stack enough bleeds.

Is there some sort of secret build that we haven’t found????

There isn’t really a skill rotation to necro, everything for the most part, is opportunistic.

I can’t listen to somebody who sounds like they know nothing about necro.

Again.. try to work something out. I already did and I really don’t feel a dmg nerf.

Also, have you thought about having 2 necros in a group that now stack more bleed? Since chill didn’t stack, 2 necros now synergize conditions more.

So what really makes us feel nerfed is not just this chill damage to bleed thing. I constantly see these posts and they ignore the other NERFS. If you dont think less stability in deathshroud and less chill output combined with this change isnt a nerf your crazy.

In PvP the only reason Necro’s were going toe to toe with other classes is because we had decent stability, more chill with high damage output. Our weapons are slow stacking bleeds by a single necro isnt going to happen as quick because we put out less chill. And, we have less stability then before.

I got on my necro that I have mained for 3k hours. The struggle to survive to do the former damage is real. Then I got on mesmer that I have maybe 500 hours on, and I can blast so many condis while blocking and evading constantly. I survived and killed 2-3 times easier., and more.

From a PvP perspective the reduction of necros even those that mained and switch over to mesmers is real.

So yes when you look at all combined giving us a paltry second condi that does low damage doesnt make up for the nerf to survivabilty and damage in general.

The pro-leaguers are right they know its better to roll a mesmer , rev, ranger, engi or ele.

Because we cant compete at that level. Your fine in lower skilled tiers.

Sun Lian.4075:

Again.. try to work something out. I already did and I really don’t feel a dmg nerf.

Also, have you thought about having 2 necros in a group that now stack more bleed? Since chill didn’t stack, 2 necros now synergize conditions more.

Having two of something =/= balance

we were arguably just as much of a threat as a condi rev or a condi mes, now we are laughable.

Sun Lian.4075:

Again.. try to work something out. I already did and I really don’t feel a dmg nerf.

Also, have you thought about having 2 necros in a group that now stack more bleed? Since chill didn’t stack, 2 necros now synergize conditions more.

I just can’t anymore. It’s like trying to argue evolution to religious people.

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

Again.. try to work something out. I already did and I really don’t feel a dmg nerf.

Also, have you thought about having 2 necros in a group that now stack more bleed? Since chill didn’t stack, 2 necros now synergize conditions more.

I just can’t anymore. It’s like trying to argue evolution to religious people.

I think even if anet showed him overall stats that condi dmg oer match droped from 300k to 100k, hed praise the “new buff”.

Dmg drop of 200k just because chill dmg turned to bleed? Mate you are doing something wrong.

..From the OP it is clear you have not played necromancer in pvp seriously and do not understand how chill and chill dmg is an intergral part of condi necro pvp.

Im sure in ur “testing” on training dummies that dont dodge, block, Cleanse, move out of ur AOE whirl combo, that you can stack a lot of bleeds on.

I am glad that some players here are looking to try and turn a bad thing into the next good thing.

Yes, the combined changes to Necro make it look like there was an overall nerf to the profession, especially with changes to other profs getting some love. I understand that can be frustrating, I was pretty disappointed at first as well, but people will keep playing this prof and trying to make the most out of it, and someone like Sun Lian will come up with a brilliant build and all y’all will be back to being mostly happy.

So rather than repeatedly pointing out how Necro got nerfed, try expanding your minds and look for viable solutions. Or go play another Prof, I am pretty sure nobody would miss all that negativity.

Mungo Zen.9364:

I am glad that some players here are looking to try and turn a bad thing into the next good thing.

Yes, the combined changes to Necro make it look like there was an overall nerf to the profession, especially with changes to other profs getting some love. I understand that can be frustrating, I was pretty disappointed at first as well, but people will keep playing this prof and trying to make the most out of it, and someone like Sun Lian will come up with a brilliant build and all y’all will be back to being mostly happy.

So rather than repeatedly pointing out how Necro got nerfed, try expanding your minds and look for viable solutions. Or go play another Prof, I am pretty sure nobody would miss all that negativity.

Not all of us are being as negative as you think. Most of us are on the “right change, but a bit undertuned” boat. And it is. We’ve offered many subtle changes to make it viable again, but it gets a bit frustrating to deal with people who ignore real math and prefer to substitute it with unrealistic hypotheticals. To say it’s fine or especially some how a “possible buff” is just entirely wrong, even if you can get moments where the bleed stacks deal more damage than a single tick of chill would have, it’s still by FAR a numerical nerf.

This has even been admitted by Devs who said “We realize this is a large power swing, and we’re keeping an eye on the trait.” (Paraphrased).

ronpierce.2760:

Not all of us are being as negative as you think. Most of us are on the “right change, but a bit undertuned” boat. And it is. We’ve offered many subtle changes to make it viable again, but it gets a bit frustrating to deal with people who ignore real math and prefer to substitute it with unrealistic hypotheticals. To say it’s fine or especially some how a “possible buff” is just entirely wrong, even if you can get moments where the bleed stacks deal more damage than a single tick of chill would have, it’s still by FAR a numerical nerf.

This has even been admitted by Devs who said “We realize this is a large power swing, and we’re keeping an eye on the trait.” (Paraphrased).

Very well said, I agree 100%. I hope the Devs listen to feedback and make appropriate changes.

I still really dislike the Whirl Finisher nerf though, it was one of the only useful Finishers we had and was really useful in PvE and Raids. I feel this was only done to avoid causing too many Chill projectiles with RS5 —> RS4, and a not well thought out at all.

The Stability change I can understand, even though I didn’t think it was that overpowered to begin with (especially since Reaper is supposed to be Melee and in the thick of things), but I think just increasing the Recharge would have sufficed, hitting both the Duration and the Recharge is quite harsh. It also already had the restriction of being in-Shroud-only, and now after the nerf it’s half as effective 8/20=0.4 vs 5/25=0.2

Another change I dislike is the Duration nerf of the Ice Field from RS5, now it is much harder to get both RS4 and RS2 off (maybe impossible? I haven’t tested it yet), which reduce synergy overall.

Sun Lian.4075:

Because I imagine those players are like Brokensunday, giving up already after 1 day. It’s sad.

Necro players, especially the ones in the pro scene, are some of the most stubborn single-class players in the game. Very few of them swap classes, and when they do its because the profession has been so significantly nerfed that they simply can’t make it work and have to swap to not screw over their teammates.

Just played a few PvP matches again, you’re telling me this is bad?

https://gyazo.com/9c0d59ebb023bf673b406ee5d20c55bb
https://gyazo.com/6f27f767c4cba0588bf2208bbe6a7fee

I know some of you will just repeat that it’s RS 5+4 and after that you got cooldowns, but see at what moment I do that? Yes, he dies after that because I time it right, and then it’s pretty good and the cooldowns don’t matter then. And no I didn’t only do that to the rev, I even did that to the engi.

And the damage drop? Where is it cause I don’t see it..
First match was obviously not as much pvp as the second but still.

https://gyazo.com/c4072fed0c7e5548bf164c4a4fa01d7b
https://gyazo.com/1a962e3c9a912a11f8be58d14be6cf5d

I won’t lie, this is a misleading post. There is zero way we will ever see that type of concentrated bleed stacking on an enemy player that allows us to see the kind of damage we had with chill. I frankly am astonished you haven’t considered the fact that getting 10 stacks of chill/bleeds onto a target within a few seconds is very difficult, and any pvp/wvw player who blows every chill ability they have in order to stack a couple bleeds is out of the their mind. You use the abilities when the time comes for it, not to stack a few bleeds.

Also, before you rejoinder with “whirl on your ice field dummy!”, keep in mind that it is much more effective to burst whirling on your poison field as the damage is much higher. BEefore, we could have both 20+stacks of poison ticking + chill damage. Now we need to choose whether to whirl on a poison or ice field, either way you look at it your burst damage just got nerfed hardcore. Oh yeah, and our whirl just got nerfed! The news keeps getting better!

Sun Lian.4075:

Just played a few PvP matches again, you’re telling me this is bad?

Get Gud…. Ok ok, this was Stronghold so there’s some HP pools that are far meatier for me to achieve such high numbers. Output wise this may have been my best performances in S2 on my Necro. I do not believe this is possible now with the chill nerfing.

This nerfing was required more to go back to the original definition of what chill is, a control condition, than a damaging condition. Though I liked the concept of Chill on a Reaper doing damage. I liked this far more than the theme of Terror doing damage. I’m affraid so I’m hurt??? Cold, not that can freaking hurt you!

I don’t get the point of those pictures. In the first two pictures you show that your build managed to kill someone in unranked. Cool, but totally meaningless balance wise. In the third/fourth you show that you can lose games and get mid-tier scores, but again nothing meaningful balance wise. Those aren’t proof of anything we’re talking about.

I used to win some 1v1s against top players with my MM build (pre a lot of buffs), does that mean my build was super amazing? No, it means I was a decent player with a build focused 100% on 1v1 that happened to win some 1v1s. They still would have mopped the floor with me in actual games (and often did).

Bhawb.7408:

I don’t get the point of those pictures. In the first two pictures you show that your build managed to kill someone in unranked. Cool, but totally meaningless balance wise. In the third/fourth you show that you can lose games and get mid-tier scores, but again nothing meaningful balance wise. Those aren’t proof of anything we’re talking about.

I used to win some 1v1s against top players with my MM build (pre a lot of buffs), does that mean my build was super amazing? No, it means I was a decent player with a build focused 100% on 1v1 that happened to win some 1v1s. They still would have mopped the floor with me in actual games (and often did).

Yeah.. I had a feeling you would whine about me losing those games and that it’s unranked, even though you know that has nothing to do with the point, namely that it clearly shows that you’re wrong, you can stack a lot of bleeds and you can turn this change into something good, you just don’t want to see it.
But no big deal, apparently there’s no way of proving that it’s not such as big nerf as you all say it is, unless I was a tournament winner or something, I get it. Sad tho.

its a clear nerf. I might be inclined to believe it wasn’t if all of our chill duration wasn’t dropped by a minimum of 20%. Maintaining chill is much harder now and the fact that the damage was put into bleed as well cripples the trait. Now if this was something else like poison or torment along with the nerfs it would be okay. But no, its bleeding. The weakest damaging condition in the game.

Sun Lian.4075:

Bhawb.7408:

I don’t get the point of those pictures. In the first two pictures you show that your build managed to kill someone in unranked. Cool, but totally meaningless balance wise. In the third/fourth you show that you can lose games and get mid-tier scores, but again nothing meaningful balance wise. Those aren’t proof of anything we’re talking about.

I used to win some 1v1s against top players with my MM build (pre a lot of buffs), does that mean my build was super amazing? No, it means I was a decent player with a build focused 100% on 1v1 that happened to win some 1v1s. They still would have mopped the floor with me in actual games (and often did).

Yeah.. I had a feeling you would whine about me losing those games and that it’s unranked, even though you know that has nothing to do with the point, namely that it clearly shows that you’re wrong, you can stack a lot of bleeds and you can turn this change into something good, you just don’t want to see it.
But no big deal, apparently there’s no way of proving that it’s not such as big nerf as you all say it is, unless I was a tournament winner or something, I get it. Sad tho.

Youre whining.

You dont have to win a tournament to win a brain and use it to realize that

you cannot stack the “chill-bleeds”:
- as reliably
- AS FAST (main part was front loaded non ramp up dmg)
- without doing a otherwise weird or bad skill rotation
- on a competitive enemy with a competitive build and class.

I appreciate that u took time to do and post the screenshot, and i will make a even simpler and clearer point, with ignoring the problems we have with unrank etc….

Scenario A
1) you stacked like +15x bleeds on a revenant
2) that rev is dead.
That rev would be dead anyway, since he ate the +10k that spin2win move does by itself.
That rev ONLY GOT BLEEDS since he ate the whole spin2win.

Scenario B
1) you did not make rev use all CDs
2) rev used his 13th dodge to avoid the long telegraphed melee spin2win of shroud#4.
That rev is alive.
That rev is 120% hp.
That rev feels zero pressured, he only has like 1x bleed ticking for 100 on him. ok magic, he has 3, wooooow
That rev autos you to death with 2k DPS or
THat rev can precision strike + evade you for 10k.

Scenario B happens 9/10 times.
Youre using a onetrick DPS finisher skill, to reach what was your CONSTANT MINIMAL dps.
Even in pveland, you could actualy use those finshers on another field instead.
——-
Conclusion:
——-
I, everyone here and the proleague players made this all up because i personally hate your forum name and the trait is actually buffed.

What I actually haven’t heard is from that most people justity the nerf by stating that you just need to combo RS#5 and RS#4 to get a decent return back. But isn’t that in itself a nerf because you have to input more to get the same result? You can’t use that whirl finsiher for something else. What about someone who actually combo’s RS#4 with another field isn’kitten nerf to them because they will not get their return in bleeds back since they didn’t combo the ice field?

Tim.6450:

What I actually haven’t heard is from that most people justity the nerf by stating that you just need to combo RS#5 and RS#4 to get a decent return back. But isn’t that in itself a nerf because you have to input more to get the same result? You can’t use that whirl finsiher for something else. What about someone who actually combo’s RS#4 with another field isn’kitten nerf to them because they will not get their return in bleeds back since they didn’t combo the ice field?

Thats logic and we have a freedom not to believe in it.

Only good thing that DC change brought is that if you running DC no reason to run Geomancy sigil. You actually wanna run Hydro for chill and bleed. And it’s still less dmg than old hydro sigil.

samulihei.1952:

Only good thing that DC change brought is that if you running DC no reason to run Geomancy sigil. You actually wanna run Hydro for chill and bleed. And it’s still less dmg than old hydro sigil.

I run both for an mlg burst of bleeds

OP is clearly trolling, nobody is that stupid.
/end thread

Tim.6450:

What I actually haven’t heard is from that most people justity the nerf by stating that you just need to combo RS#5 and RS#4 to get a decent return back. But isn’t that in itself a nerf because you have to input more to get the same result? You can’t use that whirl finsiher for something else. What about someone who actually combo’s RS#4 with another field isn’kitten nerf to them because they will not get their return in bleeds back since they didn’t combo the ice field?

True, but that’s not the only combo to apply many stacks of bleed in only 2-3 seconds..

I don’t know what you guys are on about, I’m not trolling lol.
All I know is that when I PvP now, no matter how much cleansing is done etc. I see a pretty constant bleed dmg of around 600, without combo’ing.
That’s just as much dmg as chill would do, and it’s at the same rate, so what are you talking about that it’s harder?

And this is not because I focus my entire build on bleed now, because I don’t. You only have to change a few things to make DC good. You couldn’t do so much bleed before with the same build.

So I really don’t get why you guys call it such a big nerf, the dmg loss from chill is easily gained back.

flow.6043:

MisterWonka.8796:

I may have actually found a way to make the previous meta build somewhat competitive at the cost of about 4000 hp and almost no lifeforce gain in comparison to before.
…
Maybe it’s not that terrible of a nerf after all.

So… same build, but -4k hp and no life force?
Sounds like the definition of a terrible nerf to me :P

You have to take into consideration that it does more damage.

Sun Lian.4075:

Tim.6450:

What I actually haven’t heard is from that most people justity the nerf by stating that you just need to combo RS#5 and RS#4 to get a decent return back. But isn’t that in itself a nerf because you have to input more to get the same result? You can’t use that whirl finsiher for something else. What about someone who actually combo’s RS#4 with another field isn’kitten nerf to them because they will not get their return in bleeds back since they didn’t combo the ice field?

True, but that’s not the only combo to apply many stacks of bleed in only 2-3 seconds..

I don’t know what you guys are on about, I’m not trolling lol.
All I know is that when I PvP now, no matter how much cleansing is done etc. I see a pretty constant bleed dmg of around 600, without combo’ing.
That’s just as much dmg as chill would do, and it’s at the same rate, so what are you talking about that it’s harder?

And this is not because I focus my entire build on bleed now, because I don’t. You only have to change a few things to make DC good. You couldn’t do so much bleed before with the same build.

So I really don’t get why you guys call it such a big nerf, the dmg loss from chill is easily gained back.

we are not talking of the bleed combos for that you have scepter dagger 5 staff etc, is the bleed you get from chill that is the problem it is really bad damage compared to the old trait, 10 bleed from reaper combo is terrible and that is if it all land perfectly and in a fight is never gonna happend yes you have sigils and other skills but the damage compared is a huge nerf

don’t forget 1 cleance and all your hard work is gone

the problem with necro is they always balance on the perfect scenario same problem scince beta =[

Flumek.9043:

samulihei.1952:

Sun Lian.4075:

Again.. try to work something out. I already did and I really don’t feel a dmg nerf.

Also, have you thought about having 2 necros in a group that now stack more bleed? Since chill didn’t stack, 2 necros now synergize conditions more.

I just can’t anymore. It’s like trying to argue evolution to religious people.

I think even if anet showed him overall stats that condi dmg oer match droped from 300k to 100k, hed praise the “new buff”.

Now you’re overreacting. My condi damage dropped by around 50k per match.

A well placed nerf. The implementation of condi dmg felt even more broken with this arround. Oh and just because you can’t face roll the cp any more does by no stretch of the definition mean you are useless. You want useless? Try shout heal frontline warrior after the last 2 years of balancing. Necro is a viable class. It still is a force to be reconed with.

Silberfederling.9302:

A well placed nerf. The implementation of condi dmg felt even more broken with this arround. Oh and just because you can’t face roll the cp any more does by no stretch of the definition mean you are useless. You want useless? Try shout heal frontline warrior after the last 2 years of balancing. Necro is a viable class. It still is a force to be reconed with.

Exactly, with a few minor changes to your build and a bit more effort in timing your conditions, necros are still good.

I’ll say this one more time that you understand. It was never about the bleed stacking. Necro can stack bleeds that is known. Infact our main source of condition damage comes from bleeds and that is the problem. I can burn my CD’s and stack them bleeds on foes but the thing is after one cleanse the stacks and damage is gone. That is why it would have been better to replace the bleed on chill with another condition like torment or poison which both would have been better. Torment would have brought extra damage to moving foes and poison would have brought some utility in terms of hampering healing. Now all of our damage is again shoved into bleeds. If you really can’t understand that this change wasn’t good then I’m all out of explanations to give you.

Before: 6-9x bleeds worth of dmg + 5x base bleeds
Now: 1-2x bleeds worth of dmg + 5x base bleeds

Were not talking about the total bleeds you see, but about DeathlyCHill the trait only generates 2x bleeds which makes it a garbage trait.
Was this what your stupidity was based on?

I’m not stupid, of course if you literally compare the bleed effects vs chill considering that bleed has a much lower base dmg and only considering the skills apply chill, then the dmg output is lower.

But bleed doesn’t work like chill, it’s a condition where the dmg adds up because it stacks. Which means it has more synergy with any other skills that cause bleed, you can’t leave that out.
That’s why I think you can burst easier now for example.

Chill didn’t even have synergy with other skills that apply chill, because it only increased the duration not the dmg. And considering that classes can cleanse so much, the duration increase was useless which means you’re basically left with a condition that you just reapply with literally nothing else to it.

Yeah I guess it was a really nice condition dmg vs bleed, if you’re lazy and unable to time your skills.
But bleed can be just as good, if you’re willing to do some effort.

Sun Lian.4075:

I’m not stupid, of course if you literally compare the bleed effects vs chill considering that bleed has a much lower base dmg and only considering the skills apply chill, then the dmg output is lower.

But bleed doesn’t work like chill, it’s a condition where the dmg adds up because it stacks. Which means it has more synergy with any other skills that cause bleed, you can’t leave that out.
That’s why I think you can burst easier now for example.

Chill didn’t even have synergy with other skills that apply chill, because it only increased the duration not the dmg. And considering that classes can cleanse so much, the duration increase was useless which means you’re basically left with a condition that you just reapply with literally nothing else to it.

Yeah I guess it was a really nice condition dmg vs bleed, if you’re lazy and unable to time your skills.
But bleed can be just as good, if you’re willing to do some effort.

Stop it please, for the sake of all necro players, just imagine if Anet actually takes you seriously.

With chill there really wasn’t a need to unload every chill skill at once to try and stack dmg. You could chill them, cash in on an extra and immediate 850/900 tick full condi and then chill again if they cleanse.

It’s soft cc and very useful. It was actually pretty scary (hence the nerf) and made fear crazy good as well. Getting chilled for even 2 or 3 ticks hurt, as did getting feared for even 1.5.

You could land 1 hit from a skill with a relatively large cooldown and have it be meaningful dmg. Yeah now you can stack higher damage on training golems but this completely changes fights. You have to spam 3 or 4 chill skills in the same 2 or 3 seconds to try and lay down even close to the same pressure.

You can still wreck people if you catch them with enough but in many cases they’d be dead with or without this trait.

Krysard.1364:

Sun Lian.4075:

I’m not stupid, of course if you literally compare the bleed effects vs chill considering that bleed has a much lower base dmg and only considering the skills apply chill, then the dmg output is lower.

But bleed doesn’t work like chill, it’s a condition where the dmg adds up because it stacks. Which means it has more synergy with any other skills that cause bleed, you can’t leave that out.
That’s why I think you can burst easier now for example.

Chill didn’t even have synergy with other skills that apply chill, because it only increased the duration not the dmg. And considering that classes can cleanse so much, the duration increase was useless which means you’re basically left with a condition that you just reapply with literally nothing else to it.

Yeah I guess it was a really nice condition dmg vs bleed, if you’re lazy and unable to time your skills.
But bleed can be just as good, if you’re willing to do some effort.

Stop it please, for the sake of all necro players, just imagine if Anet actually takes you seriously.

it feels like he is trolling at the moment atleast it feels like it, or he does not understand what the nerf was really, he is stuck with bleed application but thats not the problem is the damage you get from chilled foes that is now 1 bleed one miserable bleed plus you have to sustain it

Sun Lian.4075:

But bleed doesn’t work like chill, it’s a condition where the dmg adds up because it stacks. Which means it has more synergy with any other skills that cause bleed, you can’t leave that out.
That’s why I think you can burst easier now for example.

All condis stack and therefore add up the dmg, even chill. The difference is between stacking in duration and stacking in intensity. And it has less synergy with other bleed skills, not more, because a stack of bleeds can be removed easier than bleed + chill, so a single cleanse has the chance to remove more dmg than before (necro has still plenty of access to cover condis though).
If you have 5 stacks of bleeding for 500 dmg (100 per stack) and add 1x pre nerf chill for 600 dmg you got 1,1k dmg/second, which needed 2 cleanses to be fully removed. Now you get 500 + 100 = 600, which can be removed with 1 cleanse instead. To get the same dps you have to apply ~ 6x more chill than before. Massive nerf, idk how this is something to argue about.

(Note: Not arguing whether the new deathly chill is better or worse.)

I’m seeing it said that it’s still better to whirl in a poison field than an ice field with deathly chill. Is it certain that this is the case? The numbers don’t seem to add up that way (correct me if I’m wrong).

Whirl in Ice = 1s Chill = 8s Bleed
Whirl in Poison = 2s Poison
Whirl in Fire = 1s Burn (Assuming we can use an ally’s fire field)
(Per whirl bolt)

This is a direct comparison of 1s Burn vs 2s Poison vs 8s Bleed

0 Condi damage
Burn = 131.5 * 1s = 131.5
Bleed = 22 * 8s = 176
Poison = 33.5 * 2s = 67

1000 Condi damage
Burn = 286.5 * 1s = 286.5
Bleed = 82 * 8s = 656
Poison = 93.5 * 2s = 187

2500 Condi damage
Burn = 519 * 1s = 519
Bleed = 172 * 8s = 1376
Poison = 183.5 * 2s = 367

For condi PvE, it’s no contest that Ice field wins out (assuming the wiki’s data and how I believe whirling works is correct). Soul Spiral adds a lot of poison on its own, perhaps this masked the amount of damage we were getting from the poison field? In addition, with the old Deathly chill, uptime was already more than adequate for chill so whirling in poison made a lot more sense.

Glacial.9516:

For condi PvE, it’s no contest that Ice field wins out (assuming the wiki’s data and how I believe whirling works is correct). Soul Spiral adds a lot of poison on its own, perhaps this masked the amount of damage we were getting from the poison field? In addition, with the old Deathly chill, uptime was already more than adequate for chill so whirling in poison made a lot more sense.

Fair point. Overstacking bleed as a necromancer should not be an issue aswell unless you’re playing with two other condis~ (#anetplzfixmatchmakinggroups)

Cmon guys papercutmancer would hurt like hell, get me a bandage. MY FINGERS BLEEDING!

Lol

Thanks for using numbers Glacial!

People need to remember all the sources of chill we can apply. For example… I’m playing a certain build, and I don’t notice any significant “omg I can’t play anymore” damage drop.
I use Spectral Wall, and each time an enemy bumps into it, they get 1 bleed, from the chill. I can stack one bleed from using Infusing Terror, and two more bleeds from staff #3 and #5. Sure, you used a lot more abilities, but the amount of bleeds I can stack is at times a lot higher than it was with the old Deathly Chill. With the above scenario, the enemy will have at least 5 bleeds on them and you didn’t even use RS #5 or #4. If we count in sigils, he can have 7+ bleeds.

Another thing, don’t forget Frost Aura. Sure, you can only use it when you do RS#5, but Frost Aura = more bleeds when the enemy hits you (at least 2-3 bleeds from it if he keeps attacking). And allied eles can give you frost auras too.

Edit: I am very much not against changing the effect to something like Torment (Runes of Torment synergy) or changing it to something like “apply bleed when you hit chilled foe” with a 1 sec internal CD.
I haven’t tried roaming after this nerf but I’m pretty sure it has taken a hit.

too bad the reaper runes are power based :p

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Sun Lian.4075:

But bleed doesn’t work like chill, it’s a condition where the dmg adds up because it stacks. Which means it has more synergy with any other skills that cause bleed, you can’t leave that out.
That’s why I think you can burst easier now for example.

All condis stack and therefore add up the dmg, even chill. The difference is between stacking in duration and stacking in intensity. And it has less synergy with other bleed skills, not more, because a stack of bleeds can be removed easier than bleed + chill, so a single cleanse has the chance to remove more dmg than before (necro has still plenty of access to cover condis though).
If you have 5 stacks of bleeding for 500 dmg (100 per stack) and add 1x pre nerf chill for 600 dmg you got 1,1k dmg/second, which needed 2 cleanses to be fully removed. Now you get 500 + 100 = 600, which can be removed with 1 cleanse instead. To get the same dps you have to apply ~ 6x more chill than before. Massive nerf, idk how this is something to argue about.

You’re comparing it wrong, okay if you got 5 stacks of bleed plus one pre-nerf chill u got 500 + 600 dmg, makes sense.
But chill did not stack damage, I don’t know why you think even chill adds up damage but really in a setting where conditions are cleansed so much, you basically just re-apply it, it didn’t increase dmg by stacking.

If you assume a bleed build pre-nerf, you would definitely not get as much stacks as you do now, that’s the difference. You can get 20 stacks on people now if you do it right, and I think those extra stacks can make up for the chill dmg loss, that’s just how you should see it.
And whether people cleanse or not before you hit those high ticks of dmg, the extra stacks are still there.

albarinos.6135:

too bad the reaper runes are power based :p

Theyre more bad cz of smaller range, its 360 iirc.
And cz youre giving up a rune effect to reach lower medium effectivness than before.

Sun Lian.4075:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Sun Lian.4075:

But bleed doesn’t work like chill, it’s a condition where the dmg adds up because it stacks. Which means it has more synergy with any other skills that cause bleed, you can’t leave that out.
That’s why I think you can burst easier now for example.

All condis stack and therefore add up the dmg, even chill. The difference is between stacking in duration and stacking in intensity. And it has less synergy with other bleed skills, not more, because a stack of bleeds can be removed easier than bleed + chill, so a single cleanse has the chance to remove more dmg than before (necro has still plenty of access to cover condis though).
If you have 5 stacks of bleeding for 500 dmg (100 per stack) and add 1x pre nerf chill for 600 dmg you got 1,1k dmg/second, which needed 2 cleanses to be fully removed. Now you get 500 + 100 = 600, which can be removed with 1 cleanse instead. To get the same dps you have to apply ~ 6x more chill than before. Massive nerf, idk how this is something to argue about.

You’re comparing it wrong, okay if you got 5 stacks of bleed plus one pre-nerf chill u got 500 + 600 dmg, makes sense.
But chill did not stack damage, I don’t know why you think even chill adds up damage but really in a setting where conditions are cleansed so much, you basically just re-apply it, it didn’t increase dmg by stacking.

If you assume a bleed build pre-nerf, you would definitely not get as much stacks as you do now, that’s the difference. You can get 20 stacks on people now if you do it right, and I think those extra stacks can make up for the chill dmg loss, that’s just how you should see it.
And whether people cleanse or not before you hit those high ticks of dmg, the extra stacks are still there.

When I was usually seeing 17 stacks on people beforehand with Krait runes vs. Grenth, that’s still a heavy DPS loss.

The fact is, it takes 5 bleed ticks to equal 1 tick of Chill. Considering we had nearly 100% Chill uptime, that means to break even, we would need to perpetually add 5 stacks on to our bleed count. Not in “burst” scenarios, but all the time. Deathly Chill cannot accomplish this.

Dps nerf aside, I still like the idea of condition damage through bleeds more than a unique chill-based condition

On the other hand, Deathly Chill would be better if it applied a bleed on critical hits against chilled foes with a short ICD. That way, Necromancer/Reaper would not need to bring chills and still have an opportunity to add a bleed.

Yeah if we had to drop the whole chill thing altogether to get something meaningful I’d be for that. Right now this really doesn’t matter unless you land shroud 5/4. And they’d likely be dead anyway.

Without that combo you have to blow all your cooldowns, traits, runes and sigils for maybe 5 or 6 bleed stacks and then maintain it somehow with no cooldowns left. It needs a lot to prop the trait up.

Or maybe have a tempest handy for frost armor.