Guild Wars 2

So it seems everyone is up in a tissy about the Necromancer being under powered. In response, one of the most common defenses is that people are saying that Death Shroud is not being used to its fullest potential.
Now I’m not quick to write off the Necromancer’s current state myself. I admit that I’m still fairly a newb and never did structured PvP in any of the betas. I’m a bit slow on reacting to animations and I end up forgetting to dodge a lot, but even I managed to get some kills in sPvP. Still, one thing is for sure is that I sometimes forget to use Death Shroud, and when I do, it doesn’t save me a lot of the time. Being the main mechanic and what not, I assume this is a skill that is supposed to be used a lot.

So far, all I know is that it can be a helper when surrounded, and is good for a last resort when you’re about to die.
So my question to anyone who managed to stick with Necromancers and end up being good with them, what are some situations that you have been in where Death Shroud has been frequently useful, Death Shroud build or not?

DS is a tricky thing, it’s a wonderful stun break every 10s that allows you to take no direct damage, and hurt people.

I’m not saying I’m an expert, however I like to believe I’m more of a strategist then most others so this is by no means law of the land just my opinion.

for the most part I use DS as a pure defensive/supportive ability. As stated nice stun break invun, but also a very good fear that can be casted during your sustain ability. Generally I use it for such instances as waiting on a pistol whip thief to blow haste so he’s out of his resource then punish him for poor timing, try to juke (by remaining low health which is dangerous) a mesmer shatter before a large consume condition heal, and the list goes on.

mainly you need to become comfortable with the abilities that do major damage of other professions before you can utilize DS to its fullest potential. Staying DS till your life force is depleted is probably one of the worst things you can do (unless the situation calls for it which is only during large teamfights or waiting on teammates to rez for a cap) considering you do exponentially less damage while DS as that bar becomes empty. Approach the ability more as a defensive utility rather then a damage/nuke, and you’ll see how flexible it is within the gameplay.

It does not break stuns anymore, you can however, go into shroud when stunned and Fear away the foe who is on you. You will remain stunned/on the ground though.

If you end up dying with life force left because you went in and out of shroud and wrong moments and couldn’t go back while taking hurt, then you’re doing it wrong.

The fear should be used more as an interrupt than “cc” being only 1s, it’s a quick displacement that can be used to stop stomps, kick heals or other red-alert skills.

It’s also a great way to stall for cool downs on your weapon sets or healing/utility skills in clutch moments. Since weapon swapping has a 10s CD inherently, being able to transition smoothly between shroud and both sets is a good way to have the most uptime on more powerful skills. I like to use it to lessen the amount of staff auto-attacks I need to fire before switching back to Scepter for example.

Transfusion is a great trait and makes Life Transfer one of the fatter team heals in the game, though the annoying part is you cannot receive any of it while channeling it.

I prefer weaving in-n-out throughout the fight to keep my life force reserve high for when the situation direly calls for it while still being able to utilize the skills in DS. This also means you can manage how fast you want to spend your dodges, and generally give them less access to your real HP.

1) Might stacking
2) Burst mitigation

How many times during PvE questing have you had a full life bar? Many times myself!

In sPvp/WvW it’s useful to absorb damage while making an escape or to fear an enemy away. I’ve found that I use it more in dungeons as you can set your traits up so that you can heal your nearby allies with life siphon which when combined with a dagger set for quick DS regeneration can provide a useful little boost to the team.

for me personally, I use Death shroud whenever life transfer is off cooldown for the transfusion AOE heal. It’s nice that it seems to heal an indefinite amount of targets (great for my minions). Once that’s all cast and done I get maybe 1-2 auto attacks out of it and then wait for the life transfer cooldown.
Outside of the life transfer heal, there isn’t any reason for me to use it as a minion master. My staff auto attacks hit for the same damage and can fly through multiple targets, while my scepter also applies bleeding with it’s auto attack making life blast pointless. Doom is really pathetic (only a one second fear without anything else done what-so-ever) so it isn’t even really a factor as to why I enter death shroud. Dark path is barely on board, if only because the chill+bleed+port make setting up life transfer easier. (btw, the teleport from dark path doesn’t interrupt your spell casting.)

death shroud doesn’t yield much survivability unless you’re specc’d into it.

I personally like to use death shroud (in PVE, with dual dagger) as a gap closer when grasp is on CD…… there are also situations where its simply better to be range….. some mobs tend to lay down AOE attacks around them.

Thanks a lot for your replies guys.
I completely forgot that DS get weaker when your life force is low and I had no idea that you could use doom while stunned.
It’s also good to hear that some people are giving the blood magic trait line as well as life transfer some love, those were some of the aspects that really attracted me to the class that seemed to be bashed quite a few times in this forum.

They are getting bashed because they are broke, not because people don’t like them. There are a ton of traits/effects in those trees that just flat out don’t work, don’t work as intended, or work somewhere in between not doing anything and doing what it says it does.

I really wish you could still heal up in deathshroud. Considering part of your tankiness as a necro comes from constant bits of regen it kind of contradicts your deathshroud as a way to beef up your survivability.

That and I would like to see Dark Path basically become Spectral Grasp. Only Dagger mainhand set up is one I can see that would actually WANT to teleport on a target. Like 90% of the time I don’t want to teleport into melee lol.

I tried WvW for the first time yesterday (and was pretty fail at it!), and noticed that DS seemed to be like a beacon which attracted concentrated enemy fire like nothing else. Is this common or is it just my noobosity?

In PvE, I still typically use DS as the third priority (after staff/dual-dagger) for either 1) maintaining dps while CDs are ticking or 2) escape. But in a group event killing a boss I try to lay down wells & bleeds and then spend as much time as possible in DS being a cannon.

I think the biggest problems with DS are that:

1) its essentially centered around power builds, and power builds are teh sux for necros due to extremly poor skills/weapon sets. DS for conditionmancers result in a huge net loss of damage, time spent in DS is time spent NOT spreading your conditions.

2) to get full benefit from DS you have to trait Soul Reaping to max, and then the handful of “when you get in/out of DS something happens” traits.

now the problem is that said traits are scattered thru many lines in varying positions
once your built that way, you will have a fairly useful and maybe even strong DS…but for the rest you are worthless, not enough points/traits spare to make anything else.

3) last but not least, you start with 0 lifeforce, that meaning a character centered around DS is an absolute kitten at the start of the fight…and many profs/builds need just a few seconds into a fight to wipe the floor with yourkitten

all in all JP was probably drunk when he said DS used to its full potential would make necros OP, or missed the memo that after BWE2 DS was nerfed into oblivion

All I’ll say that is if you think power builds are bad you need to learn to play. Necro power builds are not glass cannon builds. You still need some toughness and vitality.

With my current necro in WvW I am dominating. The only classes that give me trouble are mesmers and the occasional thief or warrior. As I get better using DS and dodging though, these fights are becoming easier and easier.

I use a power + wells build using mainly dagger + focus (warhorn swap for swiftness when travelling around) and a staff. Dagger + focus is the best at catching runners and the vulnerability from #4 really ups your damage. With a well of suffering you can easily have people at 12-18+ stacks of vulnerability.

http://www.gw2db.com/skill-builds/1169-power-wels

With such a huge number of people running glass cannon builds with only 2000 power I regularly hit crits of 2000-2500 on my third dagger strike. My lifeblast regularly crits for over 3k when my lifeforce is high. Hounds of Balthazaar AE also crits for over 3k. Since I have much more toughness and HP (over 30k when we hold 3 orbs) than most people I have no problems killing them.

Now WvW is a different beast than sPvP but I imagine this build could work there as well. I would probably run with flesh golem instead of hounds for the awesome charge ability. Also GT wells could probably be swapped out or curses avoided alltogether and points put into soul reaping.

My stats are ~2k power, ~1600 precision, ~1300 toughness, ~1500 vitality, 10% crit damage. I use runes of the pack and sigils of force. If I could I’d up my toughness and drop my vitality a bit. We scale really well with toughness because of our high vitality and deathshroud.

Now as far as using DS properly, it is both an offensive and defensive tool when you play a power build. For offense, life transfer and lifeblast both hit very hard and it can be used as a way to dive into a zerg and put down crazy AE (wells + hounds + life transfer) and absorb any burst punishment. In smaller skirmishes you can use it to kite while lifeblasting for big damage. When you get good with it you can use the #2 to chase, swapping out of DS while it travels and appearing on your foe with daggers ready to blow them up.

DS is a very good tool when you’re a power build and very bad when you’re not. I personally think condition builds on a necro need some serious love because of this as our base mechanic doesn’t work for them.

If power builds get a buff (which it seems they might) I can tell you 100% right now necromancers who know how to play a power build will be OP. Even now I feel on the verge of it. sPvP they don’t shine as much because you don’t have sieges or zergs to bust but I think that people just are trying to go glass cannon and/or aren’t very good at dodging and using DS to escape damage yet.

tPvP power for necro is just crap. The traits don’t really synergize well with the build and the amount of time it takes to put out the damage to kill another player specced and traited to do the same thing you do, will have done it 3 times over. Sure necros have more durability and the ability to apply massive amounts of vuln. The problem is, even with 2600 toughness 21k hp a thief still eats through it like it is nothing, a mesmer can just outlast you, a guardian will just sit there and have a cup of tea going lmao and /dance while you do next to no damage to him, a warrior will just charge you with a hammer knock you on yourkittenand then either use dual axes or gs to melt your hp away realitively quickly. A ranger will auto attack bleed stack you with shortbow or longbow knock you onto yourkittenimmob you use rapid fire then auto attack from max range. Power build for necro is just horrid without a zerg situation, and even in a zerg situation, you won’t be focused with that build because compared to other classes doing the same thing, you are just a minor annoyance.

You really don’t know what you’re talking about. The only warrior that kills me is a hundred blades lolwarrior when I’m not paying attention.

I don’t think you realise how much damage dagger and lifeblast put out against people who go for insta-gib builds or how much survivability you have compared to the damage you put out.

Every situation you pose is easily countered by good DS use and dodging. This is where necros have a huge advantage, our highest DPS attack has no CD. Dagger 1 does probably the most single target auto-attack damage in the game.

If you think a guardian can ignore a power necro you are sorely mistaken. Well of corruption strips them of all thier buffs and the vulnerability you stack will make them hurt. They cannot do much to hurt you back unless they spec for damage in which case you will destroy them quickly.

People are quick to trash power builds when they haven’t played one extensively. A person in my guild switched from ranger to necro just because of what he saw me doing in WvW. He is extremely happy about his switch.

I love death shroud. Mostly. But I’ll tell you what I don’t like.

For one thing, I think it offers too little for condition necros. Putting a bleed on DP was a nice try, but if you’re using the scepter or staff, you don’t want to be deposited right next to the enemy in all likelihood. In my opinion, the bleed should be part of life blast, or something along those lines.

Another thing I don’t like is how life blast loses damage as we tank hits with death shroud. It very quickly becomes less damaging than an auto attack if you’re under fire. Perhaps its numbers would need adjusted slightly, but I would like the flexibility of being able to go into death shroud even at 30% life force and not taking a huge hit to my damage output (of course I’m a power necro; if you’re a cond. necro LB hits for tickles anyway).

I love fear as an interrupt, but it is a huge letdown to see it lasting for 1 second when we were originally touted as the premiere fear class, and when other classes have access to fears that last substantially longer.

So, while it is evident that death shroud offers a good deal of utility, it seems like a very rough version of what it has the potential to be. There are certainly some good tactics to get a feel for with it (i.e. quickly DSing to interrupt someone), but I’m not really sure what Jon Peters sees when he says we have to “master it.” Master what? Autoattacking with a projectile and tanking damage?

Considering I leveled my necro with a power build, using dual daggers as weps and pretty much ignoring everything but 1 because it got the job done nicely, and the use of wells for survival I’m pretty sure I know what I am talking about.

I am not saying it isn’t good or that it is not viable, and as for being the single most auto attack damage in the game, I lol at that. A good greatsword war, whose not a rofl HB lololol, I’ve seen them using their combo with greatsword and unlike our entire roll through of dagger 1 for maybe a 3-3.5k crit, they do that amount of damage with each hit of the combo. My thief traited entirely to be tanky and only 10 points in the power build and no extra damage on weapons at all from traits sword auto attack hits for 7-800, and thats focusing mainly on toughness and Vitality as stats.

The power damage from a necro isn’t horrible, but it isn’t where it should be at when your speccing to that kind of damage either.

If the damage gets any higher I’m pretty sure we’ll be OP. Considering the only classes you compare to are warriors and thieves (the 2 best burst classes, and my guess is they’ll be nerfed) I think we’ll be fine. Mesmers are the only other class that can give me trouble but that’s just because they’re awesome duelists, which I don’t have a problem with give their relative lack of AoE.

I tried some sPvP today with a build and gear close to my WvW build and did very well once I got use to the flesh golem. I managed a 270 score on one map and was top score 3 out of 5 games. tPvP I can’t talk about but with only 5 players per side there’s always going to be certain classes that aren’t wanted. I personally think wells are so stupidly strong that you’ll start seeing more power builds out there.

The problems for power necros are: staff auto is way too slow, axe is 100% useless and some traits are bugged or bad.

The problems for condition necros or minion necros are actually much bigger. The biggest thing IMO for condition necros is DS is horrible for them. Lifeblast should get a bleed added to it from the curse line. That would be a good start.

I’m just worried about power builds getting buffed too much and then nerfed into oblivion afterward. I shouldn’t have started playing sPvP though, gonna take away from all my WvW time….

Karandor.4201:

If the damage gets any higher I’m pretty sure we’ll be OP. Considering the only classes you compare to are warriors and thieves (the 2 best burst classes, and my guess is they’ll be nerfed) I think we’ll be fine. Mesmers are the only other class that can give me trouble but that’s just because they’re awesome duelists, which I don’t have a problem with give their relative lack of AoE.

I tried some sPvP today with a build and gear close to my WvW build and did very well once I got use to the flesh golem. I managed a 270 score on one map and was top score 3 out of 5 games. tPvP I can’t talk about but with only 5 players per side there’s always going to be certain classes that aren’t wanted. I personally think wells are so stupidly strong that you’ll start seeing more power builds out there.

The problems for power necros are: staff auto is way too slow, axe is 100% useless and some traits are bugged or bad.

The problems for condition necros or minion necros are actually much bigger. The biggest thing IMO for condition necros is DS is horrible for them. Lifeblast should get a bleed added to it from the curse line. That would be a good start.

I’m just worried about power builds getting buffed too much and then nerfed into oblivion afterward. I shouldn’t have started playing sPvP though, gonna take away from all my WvW time….

Sorry but sPVP does not matter. you could remove all your traits and pick random weapons and still end at the top of the score if you know what your doing. Try playing tPVP were the game is balanced and you will see that power build do no damage.

Well, The use of DS changes from player to player. Some use it for damage, other use it as support/Sorb. Well to be honset i play a power necro, and im tired of people trashing it. Yeah a thief has burst. yea a warrior has burst. So does a power necro, But our burst not only just does dmg. If running for ex my build. I Get rid of boons on well use. And its not 1 boon every 1 pulse. is multiple. Im not much of WvW player myself, More of a Tpvper. People haveto understand that thiefs can get Shutdown in said “burst”, and warriors can be shutdown with the miss of Frenzy Hundred blades. Lets just make that clear, For my burst. IM never going to use it until i have secure Full 7 second burst. Since im not a warrior, i dont have to rush in and guess a chance if they have a stun break/etc. I just immobilize, Which can only be removed by removing conditions from said class.

Now back to OP, Death Shroud should be used for such said examples. We will start by skills #1-#4 in that order

1- Mainly used for dmg. Very good in 1v1 with low health against another low health player. Also can be used in teamfights, Preferably used against multiple targets, if traited right to pierce. And stacking vulnerabilty and Might. (if traited in such ways)

2- Great utility skill. Fighting someone but hes bursting you to fast, Simple Gap close to chill roll away continue what you were doing. Another example for Power builds is, They roll away and snare you, Gap close to kill. Another Good example of this spell, is in a outnumbered fight. Simply fear off the farthest target, make sure you have a clear shot, Gap close on Feared target, And roll away. Though you might not live. You sure do buy time.

3- This is where the true skill shows. This isnt wow, you cant just fear spam. You have a 20 sec cooldown fear. Use it right. For examples stopping burst, kicking heals, and simply to just push some one off point. KEY TO THIS MOVE (for spvp, and Tpvp) Your fear makes people run directly away from you. So on elevated points just Position yourself correctly and fear of node/point/Cliff.

4- As for life transfer, Well there’s a whole bunch. Life transfer if traited right, is great for teamfights. In addition it is great in team fights versing mesmers and thieves and just big numbers of enemies. For 1v1 cases, its a good move to take damage till cds are up. As well as fighting mesmers and Engineers. Mesmers use there clones, Simply life transfer and Spam #1 away to destroy clones/illusions ( For most mesmer builds this is probably there number outsource of damage. Engineers, when they drop there supply crate Just Ds to life transfer to spamming #1, turrents gone. In other words, just an all out great skill that we necros were given.

AS for DS itself. Yes we do start with none… If you do not know what your doing you will lose your first fight because you havent gained any life force. THAT is your fault. NOT THE NECRO OR THE BUILD. If you do not know what skills build life force than you shouldnt be complaining about starting with none. "but but… i get owned by burst* Did you know theres a skill that grants protection and 3% LF each time when hit. L2P is all i have to say to that Quote. This Implement of DS is also a great way to wait for Cds to come back up as said in thread earlier.

Under Water DS- Pretty op. Aoe fear, Poison, and a transfer ally conditions on to self. If thats not Good then i dont know what is.

As for comment above me. Power builds wont get buffed. People just dont know how to utilize it properly yet. Just wait people will master the class 1 by 1, and then the complaints will go down 1 by 1.

Did i break it?

I think so

Yeah, i’ve been making an effort to rely more on DS, and i gotta say it’s really nice. I’m currently playing with a minion build (20 0 30 20 0) for sPvP and trying to use DS any time i’m engaged with an enemy and have at least 50-75% life force. I have Reaper’s Might, Death Shiver, and Transfusion on to buff my DS. It’s important not to trait completely for it, otherwise you’re crippling your non-DS capabilities.

I think the #1 problem people are having with DS is that they aren’t using it at all until they need to save themselves. They sit on 100% life force until something is about to kill them, and then they just use the transformation to delay their end by a few seconds.

People who use it more proactively – either for offense or for a regular part of their defense – seem to enjoy it a lot more.

Karandor, its obvious from afar you have never done serious tournament PvP.
noone builds glass cannon there, and power necros are just a small step above minion necros. the enemy will point at you, laught at you, then kill you as if you were a fly

come back when you have some more experience on the game and you arent talking outta your ahole. I was DEMOLISHING in HotJoin pvp with my warrior 2 minutes after playing the char for the first time ever, I picked the skills and traits nearly at random, just skimming over their description, coming up with a build in 30 seconds.
99% players in HotJoin range from terribads to clinically diagnosed mentally challenged

Tony.2150 – post would be correct if the last trait in the SR line would give you stability while in DS not for just 3 seconds, since hard cc makes it pretty useless since you are stuck and cant use CC breaks half the time since depending on CC, the go out of DS button will/will not go on cooldown as your other skills.

Oh also making Life Blast not lose half the damage upon going under 50% Lforce, but scale for every 5 or 10% Lforce would make it ok to actually stay in DS for a longer amount of time, not justkitteni absorb a hit or do semi viable ranged damage for 4-5 seconds and get 6-7

Tony.2150 – post would be correct if the last trait in the SR line would give you stability while in DS not for just 3 seconds, since hard cc makes it pretty useless since you are stuck and cant use CC breaks half the time since depending on CC, the go out of DS button will/will not go on cooldown as your other skills.

I do not under stand where u got stability out of what i said. Not once did i quote stability.

Konrad………………
just … When i play a tourney.. yeah people under estimate me. Then i poop on thier face. Doesnt matter what spec they go. I still sit on them. Even tank engis and bunkers.
YOU need to learn to play your necro class properly before you come bashing on someone.

No i ment DS would be usable if the last Trait of Soul reaping would give stability while in DS, then and only then would the “ds helps necros as more than a meat shield” be viable.

Oh gotcha understood.

Am I taking crazy pills?

Who gets to use DS without taking any damage?

The moment I shift into DS I am stunned which makes 30 points in the DS line mandatory (for damage while in DS). Moreover, even on the off chance I am not CC’d down, or I have wisely brought stability with me, I am pulled out of DS incredibly quickly (typically by a thief, mesmer, or ranger).
If I use fear to push them off of me that gives me one more cast of life blast… which rarely makes the difference.
This all might be doable (although I doubt it) if LF generation was remotely decent. As it stands right now ‘Blood for Power’ is mandatory and the staff + mark traits is the only decent weapon for generation.
Finally, let’s not call it burst. It is more like pretty good sustain (for the few seconds it is up).

Are you doing spvp?

I see no mention of Weakening Shroud in this topic.

I am disappoint.

……. Not everybody traits curses.

Well in a topic discussing Death Shroud, I’m not saying everyone traits curses, but its akittengood trait. Especially when DS is used as a burst soaker.

Besides, the chance of someone taking this as their 10 point offshoot trait in a 30-30-10 build is pretty high, its one of the better adept master traits.

Jackal.7432:

Yeah, i’ve been making an effort to rely more on DS, and i gotta say it’s really nice. I’m currently playing with a minion build (20 0 30 20 0) for sPvP and trying to use DS any time i’m engaged with an enemy and have at least 50-75% life force. I have Reaper’s Might, Death Shiver, and Transfusion on to buff my DS. It’s important not to trait completely for it, otherwise you’re crippling your non-DS capabilities.

I think the #1 problem people are having with DS is that they aren’t using it at all until they need to save themselves. They sit on 100% life force until something is about to kill them, and then they just use the transformation to delay their end by a few seconds.

People who use it more proactively – either for offense or for a regular part of their defense – seem to enjoy it a lot more.

That is a problem with how Necro’s are played. And lots of players even come out and say that’s what they do.

I have said this in another thread but DS is so much more than that. Its much more than just a second life bar. Its a gap closer, cc, and aoe damage. Its just a matter of how you play it.

On my condition build I do not run stun breakers, have yet to find the need for them. I also do not put points into SR, again I have found i don’t need it. I also don’t use any utility that gives life force. My build is not a 1v1 build, its a team fighting build. I do this and still win most 1v1. And can hold a 1v2 for a while (depending on what the other prof are running). All this because of using DS. Am i using it correctly? who knows, but i use it well. Sadly i have yet to get any other build to perform as well.

Only Prof i have problems with are crossfire Rangers. They can out damage me and they heal more than i do. So i have yet to figure out how to counter them. Dodging their auto attack is kind of pointless and they don’t even have to dodge (sorry kind of off topic).

@Angry Flying Squirrel.3041

If your running the traditional sceptar+dagger build. Best thing to do is try to fear the crosssfire mid duration, to a dealthy swarm to transfer, let him stack again heal and continue to do your conditions. My best opinion on beating them. And as well Gap close to be in his face while manuvering so he misses.

Thats your best bet as a conditionmancer.

@kKagari.6804

Enfeebling Blood does nothing to stop burst….

Tony.2150:

@kKagari.6804

Enfeebling Blood does nothing to stop burst….

Weakness? Yes ok, crit ignores that, but not everyone has 100% crit. Actually according to wiki even crits can glance

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glancing not too sure about this though

kKagari.6804:

Weakness? Yes ok, crit ignores that, but not everyone has 100% crit. Actually according to wiki even crits can glance

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glancing not too sure about this though

PVE glancing doesn’t effect crits, has nothing to do with weakness.
The not everybody has 100% crit arguement doesn’t work when you’re talking about burst damage as the large crit hit is the burst damage and builds spec for crit damage. It’s like saying it mitages white damage on a condition build.