Guild Wars 2

What do you guys think of this idea?

edit:

Problems with applying reveal:
Needs to be gated heavily (ICD, range, other conditions) because it is more powerful than personal detection for team utility. Necro needs more help in duels and roaming than for team situations so personal detection with less gating (ie. just always active in shroud) would help the necro more than reveal.

Problems with it being a trait:
- Completely useless in PvE, a wasted trait. There are no traits in the game that have no PvE use. Some are weaker and more situational in PvE but they all have some conceivable use. I’m pretty sure ANet wants to keep it this way.
- If it’s not applying reveal, it is unclear to the opponent whether or not the necro has the trait.

If it’s baseline in shroud then the stealth user doesn’t have to guess, and they know when the necro sees them because shroud is obvious. Also, then the necro can’t switch back to normal mode to take advantage of the revealed debuff.

So I think it should be personal stealth detection baseline while in shroud. That helps the necro the most and is sufficiently limited to make it fair for stealth users.

Love it. Do it.

I never thought of this. Actually shroud should give aoe reveal.

Seeing/target would be nice reveal no…come on now.

No reveal would be better. I’d be all for being able to see the target, but in actuality it wouldn’t work. Nothing gets too class specific and then other classes would get it, just like what happened with reveal. 600 range aoe reveal is the way to go, but I personally would have no problem with seeing in shroud, it just wouldn’t work out well imo

I like the idea, but this fits as a trait much better. Reveal is a bit over the top, unless it’s a GM or something. But in terms of programming it makes more sense for it to be a reveal.

Reveal is too much. It would mean thieves/mesmers can’t even function near a necro. If only the necro can see them it’s fair because then if they can deal with that necro until the shroud runs out they stand a chance.

The Wizland.8435:

I like the idea, but this fits as a trait much better. Reveal is a bit over the top, unless it’s a GM or something. But in terms of programming it makes more sense for it to be a reveal.

Said trait would be useless in most situations unless it were a bonus effect on a trait that does something else. Maybe just add it to death perception.

But I think baseline would be better for clarity purposes for the necro’s opponents.

Revealed sounds kinda op, but interesting if implemented nicely.

For example it could be toned down to “See stealthed enemies (300 radius) that are lower than 33% health while in deathshround” and combine it with the Close to Death trait or something. Fits with the whole ‘familiarity with death’ concept anet pushes with necro traits and skills.

IDK why people are suggesting it as traits. There are serious issues with that.

1. It would be a mandatory trait in PvP, but borderline useless in PvE.

2. It would be unclear to enemies. You can’t tell if the necro is using the trait until your stealth fails against him. It’s a lot more clear if it’s baseline on shroud so you know if a necro is in shroud he can see you. Then you can make decisions around it instead of guessing.

I like the idea of putting revealed on people too. Not that we need it, as necro does ok against thieves now, but it would be interesting as an optional trait, and useful to your team. I don’t think it would be unclear to enemies: if someone puts revealed on you, you de-stealth and you can see a revealed icon on your status bar. It’s not like they’d think they were still stealthed. And of course any such trait would have a range, so you could just back off if you see they’re about to go into shroud.

I agree and I really love this idea.

I don’t think it should apply Revealed but I think it would be nice if, only while in Shroud, we could see stealthed enemies the same way an allied player would see them. Just as a transparent outline, but we would be able to target them. Suits the theme of bonding with souls, death and what not by being able to see through the shadows.

LotR style or X-ray vision?
Agree it should not reveal. Should also not be targetable.

manveruppd.7601:

I like the idea of putting revealed on people too. Not that we need it, as necro does ok against thieves now, but it would be interesting as an optional trait, and useful to your team. I don’t think it would be unclear to enemies: if someone puts revealed on you, you de-stealth and you can see a revealed icon on your status bar. It’s not like they’d think they were still stealthed. And of course any such trait would have a range, so you could just back off if you see they’re about to go into shroud.

Applying the revealed debuff isn’t unclear, but it’s overpowered. The necro’s whole team can see you. So this would have to be gated hard like a long ICD or a condition like they have to be low health or something.

Or you could just see invisible during Shroud baseline. Much more personal satisfaction for the necro without being a complete shutdown against the stealth users.

And btw I think we’re ok against thieves but we really need this against mesmers.

Anchoku.8142:

LotR style or X-ray vision?
Agree it should not reveal. Should also not be targetable.

Well think about the implications of not being able to target them…

- AoEs like marks and wells still work.
- Dagger (and soon to come Greatsword) still work.
- Staff, Axe, Scepter, and Shroud autoattacks don’t work.
- Reaper’s Shroud autoattacks DO work.

Now what’s the point of that when Dagger is our best damage in the first place? It limits which kinds of necro builds would be able to use this anti-stealth tool.

Yes, build and skill selection should matter. Even then, revealing and doing any damage should require a costly build.

Anchoku.8142:

Yes, build and skill selection should matter. Even then, revealing and doing any damage should require a costly build.

Well my point was the dagger is the highest damage we have and it would work without being able to target them. That seems unfair to the other weapons which are already weak in the first place so untargetable doesn’t seem like a smart way to limit it.

Revealing isn’t overpowered at all just give it 600 range and a 20 icd.

This might be the only thing that would make me give up death perception; well at least for roaming.

Make it in a 280° cone in front of you. That way you have your counter defense in front of you while teefs don’t get nerfed in the ground because they can’t stealth while a “wall hack” is active.

I don’t really see the point, it’s not like necros have a problem with thieves. Main thing is they can just disengage from us but seeing them doesn’t help with that.

Mesmer stealth it could help a little, but we still get stunlocked for day or countered by moa regardless and ranged pressured to death.

Engi and Ranger doesn’t have enough prevelant stealth to care about it.

how about shroud makes you immune to ranged attacks?

arenta.2953:

how about shroud makes you immune to ranged attacks?

Would be a bit to OP IMO, but having it offer an immunity for the first 2 seconds or so would help close the gap when facing lb rangers.

I could see revealing for like 3 seconds or something. Perma reveal during death shroud would eliminate stealth as a counter to necros and teams with one which wouldn’t be balanced. We already do a pretty good job depth charging stealthed players with Marks if you equip Staff. More so since the AoE buff of greater marks was made baseline.

For a new specialization, sure.

You represent the essence of death while in death shroud, so why not. But it should be a master trait.

In DAoC, you could see enemies in stealth if they were really close to you. Like really close; if you saw someone in stealth, you had about half a second to react before they stabbed you. It was exciting since it made it possible to actively protect yourself against stealth by others means than spamming AoE mindlessly. Of course, if you were in stealth yourself, you really hade to be careful not to get too close to your target until you were ready to go all in.

Death perception is already really strong, otherwise I think it would fit nicely with that trait. Perhaps it could be added to spectral mastery. Have it “ping” like a sonar every 3 seconds or so while in shroud, and if a stealthed foe is within range, the necro can sense their life force. It should give a hint as to where the stealthed person is, but it shouldn’t reveal to others, as that would just ruin stealth. Then add a similar ability to a ranger pet or two and it’s no longer class specific.

@Anchoku.8142

I made a big mistake in replying to your idea of not allowing the necro to target them. The necro weapons and utilities are irrelevant since the idea is you can only see invis people while in shroud.

If it’s only during shroud, then your only attack for sustained damage is Life Blast. You need to be able to target them, otherwise only reapers could do anything with it.

Xaros.3986:

In DAoC, you could see enemies in stealth if they were really close to you. Like really close; if you saw someone in stealth, you had about half a second to react before they stabbed you. It was exciting since it made it possible to actively protect yourself against stealth by others means than spamming AoE mindlessly. Of course, if you were in stealth yourself, you really hade to be careful not to get too close to your target until you were ready to go all in.

Death perception is already really strong, otherwise I think it would fit nicely with that trait. Perhaps it could be added to spectral mastery. Have it “ping” like a sonar every 3 seconds or so while in shroud, and if a stealthed foe is within range, the necro can sense their life force. It should give a hint as to where the stealthed person is, but it shouldn’t reveal to others, as that would just ruin stealth. Then add a similar ability to a ranger pet or two and it’s no longer class specific.

Well I explained several times why making it a trait is a bad idea. So I edited my OP just now to explain it.

Well the engineers have the trait lock on, which no one ever even takes because streamlined kits gives them permaswiftness. So no I don’t think revealed would be too much, although I’d rather have it on a weapon skill than a trait, so we wouldn’t have to give up something more useful just to proc revealed.

Probably better as a skill, revealed is a really strong mechanic and Necros are already more than capable of killing Thieves through stealth.

Bhawb.7408:

Probably better as a skill, revealed is a really strong mechanic and Necros are already more than capable of killing Thieves through stealth.

Revealed is also a bad mechanic as shown over and over in every game that has stealth.

That’s part of why I suggest just personal detection.

And it’s more about being able to fight mesmers.

The reason something like what you suggest will NEVER be baseline is simple: it changes the basic rules of the game on multiple levels. You’re either stealthed or visible, putting in single-instance exceptions (“except for that ONE class when it does that ONE thing, but then ONLY FOR THEM and not even for any of their teammates”) is what turns MMOs into labyrinthine flustreclucks of obscure rules that become impenetrable to new players.

The closest this could get to “baseline” is if it were a minor trait. But even then, I personally wouldn’t like if it was something that only applied to the necromancer and not to any of their teammates.

I personally would make it a baseline trait but make the visibility of stealthed players/mobs dependant on being in shroud. Leaving shroud would restealth them. Would still give a general idea of which direction the enemy is for the sake of putting down marks or dagger 5.

Necro just need to see Stealthed enemies while in shroud, period. Anything more would be OP.

Necroes are already strong against thief or mesmer without reveal.
Stop being greedy and we need axe buff more than this.

MidoriMarch.8067:

Necroes are already strong against thief or mesmer without reveal.
Stop being greedy and we need axe buff more than this.

Necro is in no way shape or form strong against mesmer

dagger sucks. long live axe

I don´t think this would be a good idea. Imo the whole stealth system needs to be reworked so it actually requires some skill to get invisible. For example that you can´t vanish in front of somebody or in other word have to take care about positioning yourself. Maybe give people a stat where they can invest in which gives you a chance to reveal somebody in stealth (like in warhammer with initiative). And last but not least reveal people in stealth when they take damage (also like in warhammer).

But most important, remove stealth from classes who do not need it (Mesmers !!) and limit stealth to thiefes. There is way to much stealth in this game right now.

MidoriMarch.8067:

Necroes are already strong against thief or mesmer without reveal.
Stop being greedy and we need axe buff more than this.

While i agree that we need an Axe buff, We are not strong against mesmers in anyway, shape or form. Mesmer is the hardest counter to us currently, Probably with hammer warrior coming up a close second.

mordran.4750:

Maybe give people a stat where they can invest in which gives you a chance to reveal somebody in stealth (like in warhammer with initiative).

Oh god no. Anyone who wants to fight stealth classes shouldn’t have to lose a ton of stats to get an anti reveal mechanic. It’ll never be balanced.

mordran.4750:

And last but not least reveal people in stealth when they take damage (also like in warhammer).

Wouldn’t work due to any channeled skill following you in stealth. You already take a ton of damage, Basically any channel or projectile skill hitting you when your stealthed and your insta revealed again.

mordran.4750:

But most important, remove stealth from classes who do not need it (Mesmers !!) and limit stealth to thiefes. There is way to much stealth in this game right now.

I was going to comment and say how squishy mesmers will be without stealth, I still agree with that statement. That being said their role seems to be swaying more into interrupting enemy skills as of late yet they manage to keep the strongest burst in the game, Whilst also filling that role. It would be interesting to see. On the topic of thiefs, I just think their blinding powder-> heartseeker combo could go. Repeatable stealth that you can’t stop without ranged instacast CC sucks. Ontop of that i think missing your backstab should reveal you.

Ontopic, This is a really cool idea. I think it would be nice if it was baseline, Not reveal but able to target (Otherwise we are yet again making reaper stronger than necro.) I don’t think it will solve our issues with mesmer but it would give for some counterplay at least. Maybe we could have a trait for reveal on fear? Perhaps it can be rolled in with terror. So we have some synergy but not tons of reveal uptime.

It would make us the only class able to actually pull someone OUT of stealth. Currently nobody is able to do that. You can only prevent them from stealthing.

Edit: Engi passive trait actually can do this, Although it seems a little buggy.

This is actually a VERY good idea, considering necros are not the escape type profession and basically gets mowed down by zergs you might as well make necros a weapon of mass destruction. Instead of actually seeing them in stealth it would be nice to see like a blurred spot to signify that the person is there instead of actually seeing the person that way it wouldn’t be that easy. Or better yet the person will fade in and out of stealth. As a mesmer main I do like the idea that necros should have somewhat of a stealth detect ability.

Bad Bad idea.

Why not just ask devs to delete stealth?

I play power shroud necro and i dont even need reveal buff to wreck thieves and mesmer. It’s true PU mesmers a bit op but thieves after the patch is super squishy and easy to kill. this is more likely l2p issue u can easily predict where they are when they go in stealth just by entering shroud cast number 5 and then 4. Also staff marks procs when they come near/step on it. so easy

we need axe buff + better utility skills more than this. stop being greedy necroes are already top tier in pvp/wvw after the patch.

x Charlie.4820:

Oh god no. Anyone who wants to fight stealth classes shouldn’t have to lose a ton of stats to get an anti reveal mechanic. It’ll never be balanced.

I am not talking about everybody, i am talking about options. If somebody want to run an anti stealth build they should be able to

x Charlie.4820:

Wouldn’t work due to any channeled skill following you in stealth. You already take a ton of damage, Basically any channel or projectile skill hitting you when your stealthed and your insta revealed again.

The question is what do you think stealth is good for. Stealth should give you the moment of surprise as a tactical advantage. In GW2 it´s a guaranteed “go out of jail” card. The problem is how classes are worked around stealth and how they rely on it. You can´t touch stealth without touching how these classes work and that´s the main reason why this discussion is hypothetical at best. Arenanet will never ever touch stealth here. Imo it´s the most stupid mechanic in this game.

x Charlie.4820:

I was going to comment and say how squishy mesmers will be without stealth, I still agree with that statement.

Mesmers squishy without stealth ? Nope never ever, they have so much utility they don´t need stealth to survive.

x Charlie.4820:

but it would give for some counterplay at least.

And exactly that is what GW2 in general needs and not only the Necro. Counterplay against stealth

Could be a good idea as long as Necromancers are the only ones who can see any invisible players & npcs in ds so that their vision won’t be seen over powered and it still will be powerful and ,most importantly, different. Giving reveal effect will cause problems imo.

mordran.4750:

I am not talking about everybody, i am talking about options. If somebody want to run an anti stealth build they should be able to

Having to counter a gameplay mechanic through stats is just bad. You’re going to have a stat that effectively does nothing when your fighting classes without stealth. Theres no way anet would do that.

mordran.4750:

Mesmers squishy without stealth ? Nope never ever, they have so much utility they don´t need stealth to survive.

I disagree, Your nothing but free kills for any glass ele, thief or even engineer.

Mesmers would defiantly have to change amulet. Not that i’m against that.

Necro literally cannot defeat a mesmer in single combat. The best you can hope for is the mesmer makes a bunch of mistakes and decides to retreat, but you won’t kill him.

Even if Anet took my suggestion and we could see invisible enemies, we’d still lose to mesmers but it would be a step in the right direction for the necro vs mes matchup.

Khristophoros.7194:

Necro literally cannot defeat a mesmer in single combat. The best you can hope for is the mesmer makes a bunch of mistakes and decides to retreat, but you won’t kill him.

Even if Anet took my suggestion and we could see invisible enemies, we’d still lose to mesmers but it would be a step in the right direction for the necro vs mes matchup.

There is no us verses them. You think to much in 1v1 . I support the ESP in shroud , I would add it to deathly perception. That way you can be cced and you dont get to use DS as a stunbreaker and xray vision.

Khristophoros.7194:

And it’s more about being able to fight mesmers.

This is the biggest issue I have with proposing for reveal – the thief’s class mechanic and pretty much all of its damage and essential utility comes from its stealth attacks. Throwing reveal around willy-nilly, especially now of all times (thief is bottom-tier with necro atm, if not worse) without comping up with some huge compensation for the thief in regards to its damage potential/stealth attacks is just a really bad idea.

If the problem is mesmers being OP in stealth, but not thieves (which as a class require it for the most part aside from a few builds like P/P and S/P), then just nerf mesmer stealth, not stealth as a whole.

DeceiverX.8361:

Khristophoros.7194:

And it’s more about being able to fight mesmers.

This is the biggest issue I have with proposing for reveal – the thief’s class mechanic and pretty much all of its damage and essential utility comes from its stealth attacks. Throwing reveal around willy-nilly, especially now of all times (thief is bottom-tier with necro atm, if not worse) without comping up with some huge compensation for the thief in regards to its damage potential/stealth attacks is just a really bad idea.

If the problem is mesmers being OP in stealth, but not thieves (which as a class require it for the most part aside from a few builds like P/P and S/P), then just nerf mesmer stealth, not stealth as a whole.

That’s why I’m suggesting personal detection not the reveal debuff. In that case the worst it does to the thief is now he has to play around the necro’s shroud more carefully instead of “oh that necro popped shroud now his team can see me and I’m dead” of course that would be dumb.

x Charlie.4820:

Having to counter a gameplay mechanic through stats is just bad. You’re going to have a stat that effectively does nothing when your fighting classes without stealth. Theres no way anet would do that.

Well it’s better than no counter at all or giving a counter to only one class. I can not see why Anet should do that

x Charlie.4820:

I disagree, Your nothing but free kills for any glass ele, thief or even engineer.

As i have said they have than enough utilities to reset a fight witout stealth at all, the rest i am sorry is a learn to play issue.

Khristophoros.7194:

DeceiverX.8361:

Khristophoros.7194:

And it’s more about being able to fight mesmers.

This is the biggest issue I have with proposing for reveal – the thief’s class mechanic and pretty much all of its damage and essential utility comes from its stealth attacks. Throwing reveal around willy-nilly, especially now of all times (thief is bottom-tier with necro atm, if not worse) without comping up with some huge compensation for the thief in regards to its damage potential/stealth attacks is just a really bad idea.

If the problem is mesmers being OP in stealth, but not thieves (which as a class require it for the most part aside from a few builds like P/P and S/P), then just nerf mesmer stealth, not stealth as a whole.

That’s why I’m suggesting personal detection not the reveal debuff. In that case the worst it does to the thief is now he has to play around the necro’s shroud more carefully instead of “oh that necro popped shroud now his team can see me and I’m dead” of course that would be dumb.

Why dont u ask devs to remove stealth completely from the game?

Will u be satisfied when every single profession get reveal/detection debuffs?

Necro is already strong against the thief after the patch since thief’s survivability has been nerfed to the max.

Just because u are having hard time against PU mesmers doesnt mean u need the detection/reveal buff.

Every single professions now are having hard time vs those mesmers not only necroes.

It would be way too unfair for thief/mesmer and no point of having stealth when every single professions start to cry about “we need reveal/stealth detection”