What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Zoltreez.6435

Zoltreez.6435

If they allowed multiple shades to pulse on a single target, they’d have to balance on the assumption that people would be trying to stack the shades so as to get multiple triggers on their primary target, so they’d have to make the individual triggers sufficiently weak that getting three or four triggers on a single target on one skill use does not become OP.

Which would essentially make them so weak that you have to stack them to be worthwhile. They have to forbid it or it will become mandatory.

Not allowing shades to stack their effect on a single target means that they can make each strike powerful on its own, rather than balancing on the assumption that important targets will be being hit two, three, or even four times.

Isn’t it a test of skill to see if you can catch a target in multiple small AoEs? One Shade = decent, Triple Shade = dead. Poor positioning should be punished against a area control class.

Why would you need to nerf the procs at all? Does 100 blades need to be nerfed because you can get a full channel on some targets?

Why shouldn’t someone get blown up if the Scourge blows all their CDs and the target stands there and does nothing?

Add to that its a great way to balance PvE and PvP. Only NPCs and bad players get caught in multiple Shades.

Most capture points, Foefire middle excepted, are small enough that you could put down three shades that overlap the majority of the point while leaving very little of the point, if any at all, outside the area of effect of at least one, and don’t forget that the Scourge themselves count as a shade. If it was possible to hit a single target with multiple shades, then all the Scourge needs to do is be on the point themselves and anyone who contests the point will be being hit by at least two, and quite likely four, blasts.

At anything even close to the power of this weekend, that’s not ‘skill’. That’s ‘I own this point now, anyone who tries to say otherwise will die as I faceroll F2-F4’. It’d make the old turret engineers and full trap dragonhunters look like easily countered amateurs at point control.

And that’s just considering PvP, where your opponents can be reasonably expected to try to avoid being hit by multiple shades if they can reasonably avoid it. There are raid bosses that are stationary, or close to it…

Anyway, to go back to the original topic of the thread, the big shade trait is balanced according to how the shades actually behave, rather than how you’d like them to behave. If ArenaNet was to change them to be able to stack damage, they’d probably have to adjust how the big shade works to compensate. But I’d be willing to bet that if they made them stack damage, than the effect of each individual strike would be nerfed by at least 50%.

so what ??? kill the necro then cap the kitten point….
again people want necros to be useless and be facerollable….

I read a story on here or reddit on how players were hesistating when they saw a Scourge defending a point. People were actually afraid of Necromancers for once.

I mean what are some of the nerf herders hoping for? Do they think that if they act all meek that somehow Anet will take pity on Necro and be merciful? 5 years of GW2 tells me that ain’t going to happen.

I swear some players are so used to being kitten on that have come to accept it as normal and that they are noble martyrs for supporting the nerfs. If Scourge does get nerfed are they going to cheer?

I for one welcome the Scourge overlords. Time to put some real fear into GW2.

agree im playing necro since GW2 release… and other classes also but necro is the main.
and with scourge was the 1st time people actualy could not facetank and roll necro over…

people actualy tried to avoid necro abilities instead of just facetanking everything you throw at them while killing you…. even tough even NOW there are some classes and builds that can almost facetank shades….

right now scourge is good only in ONE thing and thats area denial…
nerf that and necro AGAIN will left with nothing….

people will again just facetank everything a necro throw at them with their billions of blocks/evades/immunes/heals/Resistance then kill the encro…

-Stellaris
-Total War: Warhammer
-Guild Wars 2

(edited by Zoltreez.6435)

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

It’s a pve raid trait imo, most skills will only affect your own subgroup in raids, with having shade skills affect 10 people, it effects the entire raid, making necro a super viable raid barrier support. Since whatever subgroup he is in he can barrier 10 people. With the shade skill and condi remove 10 people and heal 10 people with the blood sinergy.

total effected people is the same 5 for each regular shade plus 5 for you is 20 or 10 for mega shade 10 for you is 20 either way you can effect 20 players

You don’t understand how raid subgroups work. A skill affecting 5 people prioritizes the 5 people in your subgroup, it doesn’t matter if you have 2 shades out and are next to them yourself, if your subgroups are sorted so there are 5 people in your subgroup, wich is mostly the case in raids, the skills will not affect the other subgroup unless you target 10 players.

And you don’t understand how Shades work. If you have one regular shade out, all of your F skills are now hitting 10 targets.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
I’m a Geeleiver

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Lahmia.2193

Lahmia.2193

It’s a pve raid trait imo, most skills will only affect your own subgroup in raids, with having shade skills affect 10 people, it effects the entire raid, making necro a super viable raid barrier support. Since whatever subgroup he is in he can barrier 10 people. With the shade skill and condi remove 10 people and heal 10 people with the blood sinergy.

total effected people is the same 5 for each regular shade plus 5 for you is 20 or 10 for mega shade 10 for you is 20 either way you can effect 20 players

You don’t understand how raid subgroups work. A skill affecting 5 people prioritizes the 5 people in your subgroup, it doesn’t matter if you have 2 shades out and are next to them yourself, if your subgroups are sorted so there are 5 people in your subgroup, wich is mostly the case in raids, the skills will not affect the other subgroup unless you target 10 players.

And you don’t understand how Shades work. If you have one regular shade out, all of your F skills are now hitting 10 targets.

But aren’t the only effects that can hit more than once per shade the ones that don’t affect allies (aka manifest sand shade effect)? So if you were all stacked up, having multiple shades wouldn’t make a difference but Sand Savant would?

Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Zoltreez.6435

Zoltreez.6435

It’s a pve raid trait imo, most skills will only affect your own subgroup in raids, with having shade skills affect 10 people, it effects the entire raid, making necro a super viable raid barrier support. Since whatever subgroup he is in he can barrier 10 people. With the shade skill and condi remove 10 people and heal 10 people with the blood sinergy.

total effected people is the same 5 for each regular shade plus 5 for you is 20 or 10 for mega shade 10 for you is 20 either way you can effect 20 players

You don’t understand how raid subgroups work. A skill affecting 5 people prioritizes the 5 people in your subgroup, it doesn’t matter if you have 2 shades out and are next to them yourself, if your subgroups are sorted so there are 5 people in your subgroup, wich is mostly the case in raids, the skills will not affect the other subgroup unless you target 10 players.

And you don’t understand how Shades work. If you have one regular shade out, all of your F skills are now hitting 10 targets.

But aren’t the only effects that can hit more than once per shade the ones that don’t affect allies (aka manifest sand shade effect)? So if you were all stacked up, having multiple shades wouldn’t make a difference but Sand Savant would?

puting down 2 shades into your group eguals puting down 1 big shade into your group… if we ignore your own aoe arround you….

-Stellaris
-Total War: Warhammer
-Guild Wars 2

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Drarnor Kunoram.5180

Drarnor Kunoram.5180

It’s a pve raid trait imo, most skills will only affect your own subgroup in raids, with having shade skills affect 10 people, it effects the entire raid, making necro a super viable raid barrier support. Since whatever subgroup he is in he can barrier 10 people. With the shade skill and condi remove 10 people and heal 10 people with the blood sinergy.

total effected people is the same 5 for each regular shade plus 5 for you is 20 or 10 for mega shade 10 for you is 20 either way you can effect 20 players

You don’t understand how raid subgroups work. A skill affecting 5 people prioritizes the 5 people in your subgroup, it doesn’t matter if you have 2 shades out and are next to them yourself, if your subgroups are sorted so there are 5 people in your subgroup, wich is mostly the case in raids, the skills will not affect the other subgroup unless you target 10 players.

And you don’t understand how Shades work. If you have one regular shade out, all of your F skills are now hitting 10 targets.

But aren’t the only effects that can hit more than once per shade the ones that don’t affect allies (aka manifest sand shade effect)? So if you were all stacked up, having multiple shades wouldn’t make a difference but Sand Savant would?

No. F2-F5 will all only affect a target once per cast, no matter how many Shades cover that target.

Dragonbrand |Drarnor Kunoram: Charr Necro
http://www.twitch.tv/reverse830
I’m a Geeleiver

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Zefiris.8297

Zefiris.8297

I swear some players are so used to being kitten on that have come to accept it as normal and that they are noble martyrs for supporting the nerfs. If Scourge does get nerfed are they going to cheer?

You are projecting very hard. Most people do not have persecution complexes like this. They are just smarter than you.

See, let’s say you get your will, and we ship totally overpowered. People fear us! The forums get flooded with whines.

Arenanet will then have to nerf us to the ground. We’ll be OP for a week, and useless forevermore. Last five years should have tought you this outcome, it happened every time we had a few overpowered days.

A more intelligent approach is ensuring we’re great, not OP. That’s why I’m advocating to fixing solely the extremes (such as shades stacking when they shouldn’t, and perhaps removing a tick from our F5). At that point we’d still be awesome.

You can cry about “nerf herding”, but it’s simply the sensible solution.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Maxzero.4032

Maxzero.4032

I swear some players are so used to being kitten on that have come to accept it as normal and that they are noble martyrs for supporting the nerfs. If Scourge does get nerfed are they going to cheer?

You are projecting very hard. Most people do not have persecution complexes like this. They are just smarter than you.

See, let’s say you get your will, and we ship totally overpowered. People fear us! The forums get flooded with whines.

Arenanet will then have to nerf us to the ground. We’ll be OP for a week, and useless forevermore. Last five years should have tought you this outcome, it happened every time we had a few overpowered days.

A more intelligent approach is ensuring we’re great, not OP. That’s why I’m advocating to fixing solely the extremes (such as shades stacking when they shouldn’t, and perhaps removing a tick from our F5). At that point we’d still be awesome.

You can cry about “nerf herding”, but it’s simply the sensible solution.

You think Anet is going to approach this reasonably? A quick check of Necro’s history shows that heavy handed is the default response regardless of forum sentiment. Tell me what response did the well reasoned posts asking for buffs recieve?

It seems like we have more calls for nerfs from inside the class then externally. Probably why the class is in the state its in. You way does not work clearly. Time for something different. Why not have a look at the professions that are the perennial favourites? I notice Ele’s don’t seem to have the amount of self loathing that this forum has. When is the last time Ele’s called for self nerfs to appear ‘reasonable?’

You don’t negotiate with Anet. There is no give and take barginning. Were are going to have accept what Anet does whether we like it or not and we get no say.

I am not going to waste my time trying justify any possible future nerf. Anet doesn’t so why bother doing their job for then?

Basically leave balance to Anet. They don’t use the forums for balance feedback anyway. They have dev tools and server statistics for that.

(edited by Maxzero.4032)

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

The thing is you can’t keep 3 Shades up perma. You blow your three Shades then you have nothing for 15 seconds. Its all burst and no sustain.

so what ??? kill the necro then cap the kitten point….

The same, mutatis mutandis, could be said about dragonhunter trap stacks, and we saw how popular having that in a point cap game was…

Regarding PvE…

If we’re talking about a raid situation, it’s probably pretty much guaranteed that Alacrity is in the picture, so maintaining 2 shades should be fairly achievable, which means three strikes (including the scourge themselves) per activation, along with good party support. ArenaNet have shown themselves to be pretty sensitive regarding raid balance, so they’re probably not going to allow that without it having some ramifications on the numbers.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Maxzero.4032

Maxzero.4032

The thing is you can’t keep 3 Shades up perma. You blow your three Shades then you have nothing for 15 seconds. Its all burst and no sustain.

so what ??? kill the necro then cap the kitten point….

The same, mutatis mutandis, could be said about dragonhunter trap stacks, and we saw how popular having that in a point cap game was…

Regarding PvE…

If we’re talking about a raid situation, it’s probably pretty much guaranteed that Alacrity is in the picture, so maintaining 2 shades should be fairly achievable, which means three strikes (including the scourge themselves) per activation, along with good party support. ArenaNet have shown themselves to be pretty sensitive regarding raid balance, so they’re probably not going to allow that without it having some ramifications on the numbers.

Why is assumed that being able proc F1 multiple times is automatically OP? In a PvE setting all it gives is an extra 2 sec Torment per Shade.

Whats the raid DPS of a Scourge with two Shades up? Does anyone know?

Imagine getting nerfed for PvE before you even play it.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

It does flat damage too, Torment stacks intensity not duration, you also get stacking cripple, and that’s before you consider traits such as Dhuumfire and Unyielding Blast. From my experimentation on the weekend, the damage done with the non-stacking hits seemed to be pretty significant given that F2-F4 are instant activation skills with lowish cooldowns.

Not being able to stack hits means that they can balance the individual hits to be fairly strong. Personally, I prefer that to having to stack shades to be strong.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Maxzero.4032

Maxzero.4032

It does flat damage too, Torment stacks intensity not duration, you also get stacking cripple, and that’s before you consider traits such as Dhuumfire and Unyielding Blast. From my experimentation on the weekend, the damage done with the non-stacking hits seemed to be pretty significant given that F2-F4 are instant activation skills with lowish cooldowns.

Not being able to stack hits means that they can balance the individual hits to be fairly strong. Personally, I prefer that to having to stack shades to be strong.

Dhuumfire does not stack from multiple Shades.
Vul is already at 25 in raids.
The limitation on F2-F5 isn’t CD but Lifeforce.

You have yet to provide any evidence that multi proccing F1 is OP. Its interaction with F5 may need work but multi proc F1 on its own seems fairly tame damage wise especially in PvE. An extra 2 second Torment isn’t what you would expect to be OP.

(edited by Maxzero.4032)

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Dhuumfire does not stack from multiple Shades because multi proccing the Manifest Sand Shade attack (which also happens around each shade on pressing the other function skills). If you allowed multiproccing, Dhuumfire would multiproc unless they changed how Dhuumfire worked.

Lifeforce, in my experience with testing, didn’t seem a major hindrance. Different builds and circumstances might change that, of course.

At the bottom line, they will balance it. If multiproccing is possible, then it’s going to be balanced according to the assumption that your primary target is going to be being hit by at least two procs (one from a shade and one from the Scourge), which means the individual procs will be weaker.

So essentially it’s a question of whether you want the playstyle to be around setting up multiprocs, or one of spreading around your area of influence to cover as much as possible without worrying about getting multiprocs because they’re not a thing. Personally, I prefer the latter, and from what they said on GuildChat, that seems to be what ArenaNet think as well.

Regardless, I can guarantee this: If multiproccing is a thing, than the individual procs will be less powerful than if multiproccing is not a thing. It doesn’t matter if the present balance is OP, UP, or just right. If the present balance is OP or just right, then the possibility of multiproccing will naturally make it stronger, pushing it into OP territory, requiring reduction in power to balance it. If the present balance is UP, then allowing multiprocs will be at the cost of not simply making the individual procs stronger. There will be a balance between the strengths of the individual procs and the ability to multiproc. If you can multiproc, the individual procs will be weaker than if you can’t. There’s no free lunch here.

(I would note here, since you seem to be forgetting it, that each proc doesn’t just give Torment. It does a decent amount of direct damage as well for an attack with zero activation and a low recharge. Stacking just two would be like an Unholy Feast you can release with each press of a function key, in addition to the additional benefit of the function key itself, if you have the Unending Corruption trait.)

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Kam.4092

Kam.4092

I see Sand Savant being used over Demonic Lore when doing Support roles. When doing DPS roles I see Demonic Lore being used over Sand Savant.

Sand Savant will not always be used as support though, because I see group stacking being an issue. If you need to spread out on fights, then single Shades would be better, for stacking Barrier on people far away past the 300 radius with Sand Savant.

Overall it may just come to personal preference for what you prefer in each game mode. I for one will use Demonic Lore probably mainly, then Sand Savant when I switch gear to fill a support role.

Both Traits are great to me.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Maxzero.4032

Maxzero.4032

Dhuumfire does not stack from multiple Shades because multi proccing the Manifest Sand Shade attack (which also happens around each shade on pressing the other function skills). If you allowed multiproccing, Dhuumfire would multiproc unless they changed how Dhuumfire worked.

Lifeforce, in my experience with testing, didn’t seem a major hindrance. Different builds and circumstances might change that, of course.

At the bottom line, they will balance it. If multiproccing is possible, then it’s going to be balanced according to the assumption that your primary target is going to be being hit by at least two procs (one from a shade and one from the Scourge), which means the individual procs will be weaker.

So essentially it’s a question of whether you want the playstyle to be around setting up multiprocs, or one of spreading around your area of influence to cover as much as possible without worrying about getting multiprocs because they’re not a thing. Personally, I prefer the latter, and from what they said on GuildChat, that seems to be what ArenaNet think as well.

Regardless, I can guarantee this: If multiproccing is a thing, than the individual procs will be less powerful than if multiproccing is not a thing. It doesn’t matter if the present balance is OP, UP, or just right. If the present balance is OP or just right, then the possibility of multiproccing will naturally make it stronger, pushing it into OP territory, requiring reduction in power to balance it. If the present balance is UP, then allowing multiprocs will be at the cost of not simply making the individual procs stronger. There will be a balance between the strengths of the individual procs and the ability to multiproc. If you can multiproc, the individual procs will be weaker than if you can’t. There’s no free lunch here.

(I would note here, since you seem to be forgetting it, that each proc doesn’t just give Torment. It does a decent amount of direct damage as well for an attack with zero activation and a low recharge. Stacking just two would be like an Unholy Feast you can release with each press of a function key, in addition to the additional benefit of the function key itself, if you have the Unending Corruption trait.)

Your whole reasoning is based upon your assumption that multi proccing is automatically OP and therefore must be nerfed.

Considering we have spent a grand total of one weekend playing with the specialisations with zero PvE testing I think that is an extreme assumption to make.

When you combine that with the fact that Necro is one of the weakest classes DPS wise in PvE any assumptions of OPness with zero testing verges into the fanciful.

How can you ask to nerf something when you have no idea if its actually OP?

Until some actual PvE testing occurs I will make zero concessions as to what is balanced in PvE. Its quite possible that the class is very strong in PvP and weak in PvE.

(edited by Maxzero.4032)

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Zoltreez.6435

Zoltreez.6435

The thing is you can’t keep 3 Shades up perma. You blow your three Shades then you have nothing for 15 seconds. Its all burst and no sustain.

so what ??? kill the necro then cap the kitten point….

The same, mutatis mutandis, could be said about dragonhunter trap stacks, and we saw how popular having that in a point cap game was…

yeah the difference is that Hunter traps are invisible so you cant just move arround them

and there are traps and even DH bow abilities that LOCK you inside their traps radious…

Scourge has neither of this so just move arround a bit or just straight run through a necros shade fast with the bloated def CDs most classes have and nuke the necros ass……

or just outright Blink/tele to the necro and pound him to the dirt…..

-Stellaris
-Total War: Warhammer
-Guild Wars 2

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Your whole reasoning is based upon your assumption that multi proccing is automatically OP and therefore must be nerfed.

Wrong.

My reasoning is based on the following assumptions:

Assumption 1: If the effect of each proc is the same, a scourge with multiproccing will be more powerful than one without. (I don’t think there’s any disputing this assumption.)
Assumption 2: ArenaNet is going to aim for the Scourge to be at the same power level overall regardless of whether they have multiproccing or not.
Conclusion: Allowing multiproccing will need to be paid for by the effect of each proc being lower once the balancing reaches the point where ArenaNet is happy with it.

In this line of reasoning, it does not matter if the Scourge is currently god-tier and in need of a nerf, trash-tier and in need of a buff, or anywhere in between. If you’d actually read my previous post, rather than just repeat essentially the same argument (that I can’t prove that it’s overpowered), you would note this:

I included a scenario where the Scourge is currently underpowered and in need of a buff.

In this scenario, in addition to any other changes they might make, they can either buff the base damage or allow multiproccing. If they really need to buff it a lot, they could theoretically do both. However, in the end, all else being equal, once the balancing has reached the point where ArenaNet is happy with it, a Scourge with multiproccing will have weaker individual procs than one without.

Because otherwise, a Scourge with multiprocs would clearly be stronger than one without.

As a balance consideration, therefore, multiprocs do not really matter. ArenaNet will balance the profession towards a point where they’re happy with it regardless of whether there are multiprocs or not. Instead, it’s a question of playstyle. Do they want to promote a playstyle which emphasises attempting to get multiprocs? Or do they want to emphasise a playstyle that emphasises battlefield control by spreading your shades out to influence multiple strategic points?

Based on the Guild Chat, ArenaNet has chosen the latter. Which means multiproccing won’t be a thing, but the individual procs will be tuned such that the full intended effect is achieved on one proc, not two or three or however many ArenaNet thinks are reasonable to assume the player will be able to trigger on a single target at once.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Maxzero.4032

Maxzero.4032

Your whole reasoning is based upon your assumption that multi proccing is automatically OP and therefore must be nerfed.

Wrong.

My reasoning is based on the following assumptions:

Assumption 1: If the effect of each proc is the same, a scourge with multiproccing will be more powerful than one without. (I don’t think there’s any disputing this assumption.)
Assumption 2: ArenaNet is going to aim for the Scourge to be at the same power level overall regardless of whether they have multiproccing or not.
Conclusion: Allowing multiproccing will need to be paid for by the effect of each proc being lower once the balancing reaches the point where ArenaNet is happy with it.

In this line of reasoning, it does not matter if the Scourge is currently god-tier and in need of a nerf, trash-tier and in need of a buff, or anywhere in between. If you’d actually read my previous post, rather than just repeat essentially the same argument (that I can’t prove that it’s overpowered), you would note this:

I included a scenario where the Scourge is currently underpowered and in need of a buff.

In this scenario, in addition to any other changes they might make, they can either buff the base damage or allow multiproccing. If they really need to buff it a lot, they could theoretically do both. However, in the end, all else being equal, once the balancing has reached the point where ArenaNet is happy with it, a Scourge with multiproccing will have weaker individual procs than one without.

Because otherwise, a Scourge with multiprocs would clearly be stronger than one without.

As a balance consideration, therefore, multiprocs do not really matter. ArenaNet will balance the profession towards a point where they’re happy with it regardless of whether there are multiprocs or not. Instead, it’s a question of playstyle. Do they want to promote a playstyle which emphasises attempting to get multiprocs? Or do they want to emphasise a playstyle that emphasises battlefield control by spreading your shades out to influence multiple strategic points?

Based on the Guild Chat, ArenaNet has chosen the latter. Which means multiproccing won’t be a thing, but the individual procs will be tuned such that the full intended effect is achieved on one proc, not two or three or however many ArenaNet thinks are reasonable to assume the player will be able to trigger on a single target at once.

Maybe its both? They could well want multiproc because it would be much better in PvE (where Necro needs help) and weaker in PvP (where Necro needs less help). Players move out of Shades, NPCs don’t.

It’s a way they could balance PvP and PvE without having to split skills (something they are reluctant to do). Add to that keeping multi proccing gives them another lever to adjust balance that would affect PvP and PvE differently (something that is quite valuble)

This would make your second assumption false (they are balancing not just on purely numbers but on different situations and game modes as well). Your mistake is assuming that the numbers and mechanics have the same impact in different game modes.

This would make your conclusion invalid.

(edited by Maxzero.4032)

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

It still seems that it would be pretty easy to get at least two procs on a PvP target, especially in a point fight where leaving the point is often effectively losing . Therefore, the PvP balancing would be done on the assumption of getting two procs off, meaning that the procs would likely be roughly half the strength they would have without multiproccing.

(I say ‘roughly’ because ArenaNet might consider that getting two procs is still a little harder than getting one, or they might alternatively consider the possibility of getting more than two procs.)

They also said in GuildChat (not in the same words) that they’d had multiproccing, and they decided they didn’t like the gameplay that promoted. So the experiment has already been done.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

yeah the difference is that Hunter traps are invisible so you cant just move arround them

If you see a known trapper on a point, you pretty much know that the traps are going to be on the point. Some are sneaky and put them somewhere where you’re not expecting them (particularly common on maps like Temple where there are chokepoints on the routes to the point), but the main trick was making it incredibly painful for anyone who steps on the point.

The counter is triggering those traps without suffering the pain.

There’s a reason DHs have a reputation for being pubstompers but weren’t used by ESL players back when ESL was still a thing: top-end players know how to discharge traps harmlessly or otherwise beat a trapper.

A scourge putting three shades on a point with multiproccing and sitting on that point themselves is pretty much going to own that point, at least for the next 20 seconds or so until the shrouds start expiring, particularly with the defensive benefits that the shades can also provide (unless the individual procs are so weak that you need 3-4 hitting at once to be threatening). That’s pretty much enough time to flip a point, or if you’re bunkering, generally enough time for help to arrive. I don’t think – although I might be wrong – that it’s even possible to destroy the shades, which you could do to turret engineers.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

Maybe its both? They could well want multiproc because it would be much better in PvE (where Necro needs help) and weaker in PvP (where Necro needs less help). Players move out of Shades, NPCs don’t.

Let’s be honest, if multiproc was the solution for PvE, all powermancers would play minion and achieve the same level of damage than an elementalist. (which is not the case)

The problem of the necromancer in PvE is that it’s tools are designed to fonction in an optimal and balanced manner when you fight against player. The strenght of the scourge that allow him to be so effective in PvP and WvW is it’s novelty and it’s large amount of boon corruption.

In PvE, the mobs are not surprised by novelty and stick to their behavior whatever they have in front of them while Boon corruption can at best make them frown.

If anet wanted to make the necromancer competitive in PvE, they would have to do it through the core necromancer and that would be pretty simple to do. I don’t really understand why they refuse to make those change (well it’s not like they really communicate over profession balance) but the core necromancer and all e-spec actual and futur need them.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Maxzero.4032

Maxzero.4032

It still seems that it would be pretty easy to get at least two procs on a PvP target, especially in a point fight where leaving the point is often effectively losing . Therefore, the PvP balancing would be done on the assumption of getting two procs off, meaning that the procs would likely be roughly half the strength they would have without multiproccing.

(I say ‘roughly’ because ArenaNet might consider that getting two procs is still a little harder than getting one, or they might alternatively consider the possibility of getting more than two procs.)

They also said in GuildChat (not in the same words) that they’d had multiproccing, and they decided they didn’t like the gameplay that promoted. So the experiment has already been done.

Anet says a lot of things. They don’t follow through with a lot. As of right now all extra proccing is doing is giving an extra 2 sec Torment and 2 sec Cripple.

Do you think is what is giving Scourge it’s strength in PvP at the moment? What is creating the condi bombs is F5 proccing F1 per tick AND during the F5 the 1 Dhummfire proc limit per pulse is ignored.

Just keeping fixing the limit would take 7-21 stacks of Burning off the condi bomb.

Without the extra Burning this wouldn’t even be discussed it would just be considered a nice change.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Maxzero.4032

Maxzero.4032

Maybe its both? They could well want multiproc because it would be much better in PvE (where Necro needs help) and weaker in PvP (where Necro needs less help). Players move out of Shades, NPCs don’t.

Let’s be honest, if multiproc was the solution for PvE, all powermancers would play minion and achieve the same level of damage than an elementalist. (which is not the case)

The problem of the necromancer in PvE is that it’s tools are designed to fonction in an optimal and balanced manner when you fight against player. The strenght of the scourge that allow him to be so effective in PvP and WvW is it’s novelty and it’s large amount of boon corruption.

In PvE, the mobs are not surprised by novelty and stick to their behavior whatever they have in front of them while Boon corruption can at best make them frown.

If anet wanted to make the necromancer competitive in PvE, they would have to do it through the core necromancer and that would be pretty simple to do. I don’t really understand why they refuse to make those change (well it’s not like they really communicate over profession balance) but the core necromancer and all e-spec actual and futur need them.

Which is why I think multi proc is good. It’s a mechanic that has reduced impact in PvP but a bigger one in PvE.

The whole reason why Anet has never buffed Necro in PvE is the old excuse that they were too tanky. Scourge is not tanky.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

Which is why I think multi proc is good. It’s a mechanic that has reduced impact in PvP but a bigger one in PvE.

In fact, multi proc have the same impact in PvE and PvP and if anything, such a thing impact more PvP than PvE. That is because mobs usually have large health pool while player have health pools that are more balanced and where each hit count. I’m giving a simple exemple : Aegis. Aegis rarely appear on mobs but is something of importance to some player and multi hit impact those players a lot.

The whole reason why Anet has never buffed Necro in PvE is the old excuse that they were too tanky. Scourge is not tanky.

Well, I’ve seen some video featuring scourge that are way tankier than any necro/reapers are. This is a matter of build, not a matter of elite spec. If anything, scourge are compelled into taking more and more vitality to be able to use more often their “F” skills which mean that a scourge will more easily lean toward a vitality build even if he want to be a damage dealer. Just take a look at the video that zero solstice made to showcase it’s “support” build… That is tanky! Neither a reaper nor a necromancer would have survived where he survived.

No, anet don’t refrain from buffing the necromancer because he is tanky, anet refrain from doing so because they fear the potential that they see in the shroud and their narrow view of what a necromancer should be doing.

Fixing the fact that the necromancer is unwelcome in raids, is just a matter of slightly modifying a trait (rending shroud) so that it’s effect is not impeded by the natural vulnerability cap.

Fixing the low power dps of the necromancer is just a matter of introducing a +10% damage modifyer that affect all skills (except minions) and is not in competition with close to death.

I believe that condi dps don’t really need more “love” and that a PvE necromancer absolutely don’t need more skills that corrupt boons to be competitive. And what do the scourge propose? Boon corruption and conditions to apply. The conditions are certainly balanced in PvE to achieve a condi dps that is close to what a condi reaper do and if it need boons to corrupt to achieve such a feat, you can be sure that scourge is screwed. Multi it can’t change those facts.

Multi hit or not, it will be balanced around how it impact other professions in PvP not how it impact them in PvE. And as it stand multi hit is way more bothersome in PvP. All in all, for balance, it’s better for them to keep things simple and make it so that it only hit once.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

What is even point of BIG SHADE ?

in Necromancer

Posted by: Maxzero.4032

Maxzero.4032

Which is why I think multi proc is good. It’s a mechanic that has reduced impact in PvP but a bigger one in PvE.

In fact, multi proc have the same impact in PvE and PvP and if anything, such a thing impact more PvP than PvE. That is because mobs usually have large health pool while player have health pools that are more balanced and where each hit count. I’m giving a simple exemple : Aegis. Aegis rarely appear on mobs but is something of importance to some player and multi hit impact those players a lot.

The whole reason why Anet has never buffed Necro in PvE is the old excuse that they were too tanky. Scourge is not tanky.

Well, I’ve seen some video featuring scourge that are way tankier than any necro/reapers are. This is a matter of build, not a matter of elite spec. If anything, scourge are compelled into taking more and more vitality to be able to use more often their “F” skills which mean that a scourge will more easily lean toward a vitality build even if he want to be a damage dealer. Just take a look at the video that zero solstice made to showcase it’s “support” build… That is tanky! Neither a reaper nor a necromancer would have survived where he survived.

No, anet don’t refrain from buffing the necromancer because he is tanky, anet refrain from doing so because they fear the potential that they see in the shroud and their narrow view of what a necromancer should be doing.

Fixing the fact that the necromancer is unwelcome in raids, is just a matter of slightly modifying a trait (rending shroud) so that it’s effect is not impeded by the natural vulnerability cap.

Fixing the low power dps of the necromancer is just a matter of introducing a +10% damage modifyer that affect all skills (except minions) and is not in competition with close to death.

I believe that condi dps don’t really need more “love” and that a PvE necromancer absolutely don’t need more skills that corrupt boons to be competitive. And what do the scourge propose? Boon corruption and conditions to apply. The conditions are certainly balanced in PvE to achieve a condi dps that is close to what a condi reaper do and if it need boons to corrupt to achieve such a feat, you can be sure that scourge is screwed. Multi it can’t change those facts.

Multi hit or not, it will be balanced around how it impact other professions in PvP not how it impact them in PvE. And as it stand multi hit is way more bothersome in PvP. All in all, for balance, it’s better for them to keep things simple and make it so that it only hit once.

Disagree with that.

It has more effect in PvE because its easier to get more hits in PvE. They are stationary Shades after all.

If you take away multi proc how do you change Shades in a way that would impact PvE but not PvP or vice versa?

I do agree that the Anet ‘vision’ of the Necromancer has been its biggest hurdle. Unfortunately Death Shroud has been at the heart of that stifling vision.

How can we know how it will be in PvE? Haven’t even had a chance to play. I remember pre BETA weekened this forum was full of hate of the Scourge and how it was a failure before it was even released.

Don’t put much stock in forum wisdom.

(edited by Maxzero.4032)