Guild Wars 2

I see Mesmers and Eles all over the place but very rarely see Necros anymore. Im talking at 80 and also those still leveling. Is there any reason the other 2 cloth professions are a dime a dozen and Necros are a rare spawn?

D/D Elementalists are extremely powerful at the moment.

Mesmers have always been rather powerful.
Thanks to their ability to avoid damage they can run full Zerker in PvE and live, easily.
They are also very hard to fight against in PvP.
I dunno if I’d call them OP but they are strong for sure.

Necromancer on the other hand is bit of a mess.
For one they only have one third of the downed health of other Professions in PvE and WvW.
This means that when you get downed during a Guild Mission, a Dungeon or in WvW you pretty much instadie if something/someone attacks you while you are downed.

It’s a bug, but it’s been around for quite a while.
It’s one reason I don’t play much atm.

In PvE Necro is average but brings nothing very special on the table the way many other Professions do.
No Portals, no Projectile Reflection/Destruction, no Stealth, no super high damage and no Support to speak of.

Well skill cooldowns are also too long.

In PvP Necromancer’s best skills are all situational.
Corrupt Boon:
Great, borderline OP! …but only if your target has many Boons.
Also it seems to fail without a reason sometimes.
Like it has a very tiny angle in front of you where it actually succeeds to hit.

Epidemic:
Great, borderline OP! …if you are facing multiple opponents and 1 has tons of Conditions on him.
…and also it sometimes fails to work, just like Corrupt Boon does.

Signet of Undeath:
Great! …provided it’s not on it’s 180sec cooldown, you don’t get interrupted and the player you are trying to res isn’t being Quickness Stomped.

At just the right situation at the right time a Necromancer is insanely Powerful.
Due to this some even think that Necro is OP. Heh.

In every other situation they are just weak or average.
Heck, even the Life Force mechanic is situational.
Either you have a constant stream of Life Force or you are absolutely starving to even get 10% to fight off a burst.

tl;dr: All the best tools Necromancer has are situational and thus unreliable.

Also Arenanet addresses Necromancer problems so rarely that Necros feel abandoned.
I think many have dropped their Necro mains and picked an another Profession by now.

The issues have been discussed ad nauseum for the last 8 months. It honestly feels like ANet is ignoring us at this point. Best thing to do is read this thread. While it is from a PVP perspective, some of it pertains to PVE as well and sums up our problems very nicely.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/The-state-of-Necromancer/first

LastDay.3524:

tl;dr: All the best tools Necromancer has are situational and thus unreliable.

Also Arenanet addresses Necromancer problems so rarely that Necros feel abandoned.
I think many have dropped their Necro mains and picked an another Profession by now.

Lets not forget the issues with minions either. Half the time they stand around and don’t do anything outside of tPvP. It really is a mystery why minions work 95% of the time in tPvP but fail so miserably in PvE/WvW.

Also pretty much how I feel right now. Abandoned. I leveled a ranger last month. Haven’t touched my necro since getting 80 on my ranger. People whine on the ranger forums about how bad rangers have it. I honestly don’t know what the hell they’re talking about. Coming from playing a necromancer for 8 months, rangers are kittening amazing and I love playing that class. Its the attrition class I’ve always wanted necromancers to be.

I just dont understand how they cant figure out how to at least make minions work right. I have played necro type classes in several games as my main. Necro in Everquest, Bonedancer in DAoC, and Lock in WoW and minions in this game are so bad its like a 6 year old with dyslexia wrote the code.

Dabrixmgp.4758:

I just dont understand how they cant figure out how to at least make minions work right. I have played necro type classes in several games as my main. Necro in Everquest, Bonedancer in DAoC, and Lock in WoW and minions in this game are so bad its like a 6 year old with dyslexia wrote the code.

To make matters worse, they already have a functioning minion code in this game. It belongs to the Guardian spirit weapons. They are functionally minions in that they are completely autonomous for the most part (they attack only what the guardian attacks) and they never spaz out like the necro minions do.

Ignore those folks that say necro minions are useless. The AI has been drastically improved and they are now actually quite reliable (save Flesh Golem who still takes a bit longer to get into the fight). Two single-target hits will get all of your minions attacking that target quite well. People trying to initiate with Wells, Grasping Dead, Life Transfer, and Unholy Feast are the ones that have issues with the minions not responding, but that’s because the minions don’t know who to attack. Initiating with a couple of auto-attacks (or, surprisingly, a mark) get them to be very responsive.

That said, minions other than Flesh Golem and Flesh Wurm are still quite useless in WvW, but all pets are there due to the ridiculous amounts of AoE flying around.

Funny thing I noticed today, Wells actually do attain aggro, at the very least when hitting 1 target. I’ll be doing testing to figure out what happens when you hit multiple.

Edit: also, this was WoS, which probably had something to do with it.

The Necro has a lot of little problems, but so does everyone. In a straight fight, the Necro can hold its own pretty nicely. However, we have a much harder time getting out of a fight that’s going poorly, which means we die when others would flee. This leads to a sense that the Necro is seriously underpowered when really we just aren’t as good at resetting fights, making our flaws (which aren’t really all that much worse than anyone else’s) stand out more.

SPVP is where necromancers have the most problems. In PVE they are fine, and in WvW is where they shine.

Sure you don’t see many of them around, but you have to think about what most people were aiming for when they make a necro: I’ve seen so many people just try to make something like a condition + well necro with a spectral armor in PVE, then lose interest when it doesn’t work out too well. Or, they’ll go for pure conditions at low levels, and when they get very little return due to how conditions scale at low levels they lose interest. I get the feeling that, like with many classes, the issue with the necro is that people haven’t really figured out the OP builds and tactics for it yet, and because of this not many people play it.

Regardless, there are some really big tricks that set the necro apart from other classes.

#1: Epidemic. This does just insane amounts of AoE condition damage while in dungeons or large overworld events when by yourself. It can do literally 100k damage every 12 seconds in the right conditions, which are surprisingly more common than you’d think.

#2: Plague Form. This skill can let the necro face tank pretty much anything while dealing about bleeds in an AoE around them. A more defensive-minded necro can create a constant blind + chill effect around them, disabling any enemies within range.

#3: Signet of Undeath. If traited properly, it is one of the best instant-rez in the game, affecting 3 targets in an area and reviving them with no caveats whatsoever. The only rez that could arguably be better than this is Glyph of Renewal, but the Glyph doesn’t have a passive effect to it.

#4: Condition transferring. Though mesmers can do some of this, Necromancers are the master at it. With Plague Signet the party will have a constant cleric effect, and Putrid Mark can cleanse the entire team and throw it on the enemy for everyone who is in range of the mark. This is better than normal cleansing since it rebounds damage to the enemy. Also, well of Power converts conditions into boons when used.

#5: Necromancers are really good at stacking vulnerability. Ghastly Claws and Reaper’s Touch are great for single targets, while Spectral Wall, Well of Suffering, Death Shiver, and Unyielding Blast are good at doing it in AoE. Lure an enemy through spectral wall twice, and they’ll practically be capped already.

#6: Bone Minions. High AoE damage roaming/targetable blast finishers on up to a 16 second recharge, viable regardless of build.

And moving on to WvW:

#1: Marks + Wells. When traited up, marks are incredibly powerful in WvW, providing an instantaneous and unavoidable form of AoE damage, condition transference, and stun at 1200 range. The auto attack leaves much to be desired, but to be fair in zerg vs. zerg that hand hits more than you’d expect. Wells are really good for laying down damage (suffering), disabling (darkness + chilling darkness), or mass boon stripping (corruption) in an area. With choke points in mind and with a decent team (note: elementalist with static field completes this combo), the necromancer can lay down a damage patch that strips stability while blinding, chilling, damaging, and causing vulnerability so the necro can slam mark after mark at that location. It goes through gates and is great for defense and offense. It also lets necromancers escape, putting marks and wells behind them as they run, making any pursuit futile.

#1.1: Terror. I’ve recently discovered how awesome this ability is on a condition necro in WvW. In other places it is kind of Meh, but hitting 5 guys for 3000 damage while running them off of siege is priceless.

#2: Spectral Wall. This ability has a very unique function in WvW, most notably that if you are in a group that is rushing any point, putting down this wall will give the entire zerg protection (effectively increasing proportionate strength of zerg by 33%) when they run through it, and when clustered together it can give the zerg protection in an area for a sustained amount of time. Spectral wall can mean success or failure in a rush.

#3: Spectral Grasp. This is arguably the best pull in the game. It has 1200 range, pulls the entire distance, chills its target so they can’t get away, and gives 10% life force. It is excellent when chasing down runners or pulling players off of walls, since it can spell certain doom once it hits.

Fourth, Stuns. Now, necromancer stuns are scattered and a bit hard to use, however there is something unusual about them. Something that Flesh Golem Charge, Wail of Doom, Reaper’s Mark, Wave of Terror, and Chilling wind have in common is that they disable in an AoE. While this normally isn’t that impressive, in small skirmishes disabling multiple enemies at once is incredibly useful.

And most of the above stuff in PVE also works in WvW.

As for where necros have problems, well that comes in two forms.

First is that necromancers have little to no active defense. Active defense being the ability to block, reflect, dodge, move away from, or otherwise nullify incoming attacks or to disable/interrupt opponents so they can’t attack. Most necromancer controls are scattered about different weapons, and most controls are soft controls like cripple or chill that do not actually stop opposing players. Because of this, the necromancer will find themselves frequently disabled or incapable of avoiding the big and dangerous attacks that other classes can easily deal with. Their answer to this is Death Shroud, but it isn’t nearly as effective as it should be. When used for offense, Death Shroud isn’t around to be used defensively. When on condition builds, Death Shroud is never around to be used at all. Ultimately, Death Shroud doesn’t stop the incoming attacks, but instead puts them onto a temporary HP bar that quickly depletes into the real HP bar. In PVE it isn’t as bad since there are almost always enemies around dying that give life force, but in PVP unless you run a power necro you’ll find yourself constantly wishing you had lifeforce to defend yourself with. A good opponent will know not to waste all their big skills on your Death Shroud, making it nigh useless defensively in competition.

Second is that necromancers don’t have good stun breakers. The Flesh Wurm can be interrupted, Spectral Walk just gives swiftness, Plague Signet is just begging to be used at another point in the fight and not be available, and Spectral Armor is on a long recharge and doesn’t prevent the Necro from just getting stunned again. Ultimately you have to choose between Flesh Wurm and Spectral Wall: Either something that can be interrupted, or something that is rarely around to ever be used.

Third is that necromancers don’t have any bursts, sans Bone Minion. All of their attacks are about doing damage over time, and while necros are good at damage over time (for example, the dagger auto attack is 24% more damaging than the dagger auto attack of the thief), in the end the necromancer lacks the ability to seal the deal against most opponents.

These three flaws compound themselves. The necro’s sustained damage is decreased because they’re constantly being disabled with no good counter to this disability,, and they lack the ability to do anything serious with the few controls that they have available to them. Their conditions can be cleansed away, players cans imply walk right out of their wells, and their best source of augmented damage (minions) is killed off quickly in anything that isn’t a 1 vs. 1 fight. The necromancer is best at doing sustained AoE damage over time, and any situation that doesn’t reward this is where necromancers flounder.

Fourth is that necromancers don’t have versatility in their builds. While elementalists and engineers can readily switch tactics with their trait point investments, Necromancers are stuck with what they went with. They can’t switch to healing or support on the fly, and they can’t suddenly become tanky in an offensive build. If you need to do something else than what you’re currently specced in, then you have visit a trainer and get them flipped. This really limits the versatility of the Necro as a whole.

Perhaps the game is intentionally shaped in way to make sure Necro numbers are kept down; but this is just a theory.

Depends were you are looking tbh.

Elementalist is with Staff the best Supprt Class in the game, in WvW most guild wont leave spawn without 3-5 Eles. They have Combo fields both for Might Stacking & Healing that are far superior to other classes and they should be used as Support first, dmg second.

Mesmer are utility Class with what we can agree are some unique (so far) utilitys like Portals aso. They got nerfed bad in dmg tho with Confusion cut in half. And are now only the 3rd best in DD (not talking burst) talking AoE quantity & quality here.

Necros is and should be played as a pure DD-class. the sooner ppl realize that the better. Yes it has ways with “Chilling Darkness” to keep up a almost constant Chill pressure on the enemy but its real Power is the AoE, and mainly it dmg. Still NOT talking just burst but total dmg. I run when equiped with staff 9/10 AoE skills and with AA as a skill that penetrates so say what other class can do the same ?

Start playing as it should, Spwecially in WvW. Its should be played with Wells and with Power. I have over 2700 Power and I wreck havoc among most encounters in WvW and when guild needs it 3-4 Necros in Plague Form with Chilling Darkness blinds + freezes an entire zerg. I have Putrid Mark constant for over 7k, yes 7k+.

But if ppl wanna try to play it for whakittens not then ppl are still gonna complain about it being weak. Ask most playes what CC they find worst ? I bet Freeze comes right up there (2 things for 1). If u enjoy WvW Necros are truly a class for you.

cheers Rave

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

SPVP is where necromancers have the most problems. In PVE they are fine, and in WvW is where they shine.

To be precise, necromancers do not shine in WvW. They shine in zergs. Once you move outside of the Babysitter Blob™ the exact same dynamics that you see in PvP begin to apply across the board.

Well I guess thats when skill comes in then & easy-moders go out

1. Lousy, buggy, and highly situational class skills with stupidly long cooldowns.

2. Lousy, buggy, and highly situational weapon skills with stupidly long cooldowns. (I find most of the offhand skills, to be truly worthless)

3. Poor healing. (Consume conditions is indeed awesome, but my warrior has a very similar heal, and he never uses it. Healing Signet has always been more useful. Our version of regen healing is the blood fiend, and when it isn’t dying in AoE, it’s forgetting to attack.)

4. Conditions suck, or more specifically, our conditions suck. We can’t pop retaliation, or confusion, and watch people melt. All we do is stack bleeds and watch people shrug.

5. Fear isn’t awesome. Fear is a mild nuisance, that forces me to give pause before going back to kicking some necro’s kitten .

I ran into a necro on me thief the other day. He was a minion master with daggers/axe. Totally caught me off guard; he ran me over like a freight train.

So I ran back, ASAP, thinking to myself “finaly! a viable necro build!” I re-engaged him, and sure enough, I was no match for him. I tried everything at my disposal even cloak and dagger spam. (I hate cloak and dagger thieves, but I wanted to see how he fared against one)

There was no way I could beat him, my single target skills were no match for his small army, and yet there was no way he could beat me. I could dodge him all day. Bleeds mean nothing to my thief, so when he switched to a staff I just chuckled.

…and then an ele came buy and aoe’d him down with ease.

…and then a mesmer shattercat’ed him for an insta-death.

…and then I left, thinking to myself, “at least he’s good against thieves.”

Power based, I get excited at a 5k hit. (Filled with might & vun stacked from others). I hear war’s get excited at 35k hit in the same situation.

So ya’d think, conditions would be it. But soo many things are wrong with that. Catapults, totems, doors, mines, and any ‘item’ in world ya need to remove. Then, there’s 25 stacks per condition. Tho ANet says necros are king of poison, it’s lots and lots of bleeds we do. Lots of class’s do bonus bleeds on crits & other abilitys. Meaning we are just pushing others damage off targets, even in a 5man. World event even worse. Life Force gain on death shroud is small with conditions. Death Shroud’s attacks are power based. (Excluding 2, which puts you in meele range and has a 12sec CD)

Oh DeathShroud. Never there when you need it, as it’s only filling up fast when monsters are dead. Confusing for defense as it takes damage on 1% blocks (Getting hit for 2 damage is the same as 1.2k depending on armor?) As far as I can tell, it’s 75% max life off your base stats, then less % the more vit you have on gear? Then the pure sweet WTF iceing, Soul Reaping traits, add life force pool… But it still ticks for 4%or 3% of 100% the pool, meaning exactly the SAME uptime as not having it, excluding the very odd attack that hit you 4 times for the 1% block, that you actually gain 1 second.

Minions, they don’t scale with your gear or stats. So you can build any way you like and there the same. Excluding you NEED to go 20 points into Power/Spite to increase there dam, and got to down Tanky/Death Mag & Healy/Blood Mag to get there other beef ups. Then, they are worse pets in any game… Sadly they have been fixed up a LOT. But, still useless. Easily fixable with a ‘move here out of aoe/ick. Attack/Come back.’

Support. We do get some nice condition fix’s. Tho, it’s in burst, and the CD’s are just too long to be reliable. Life Siphon to aoe, still only heals a small amount of players less than 1% adv max life, per sec. Is NOT affected by heal power.

Vampire. Life Siphon, costs 20-30 traits. Still less powerful than Ele’s 6 sig. Is NOT affected by heal power. 50% stronger, Crits, Pets. Could be nearly as useful as a aoe heal as Guard/Ele aoe passive heal, IF, you could get the shares to allys ontop. But no where near as effective as other class’s, solo or group.

Know this has just become a madman’s rant… But moril of the story:

A-Net plz plz plz fix us up a bit, even if just pve for now if your scared were going to be OP in PvP. Minion bar, heal power on vamp, environment objects affected by conditions, own stacks of conditions, or any other small easy fix’s to make us have a ‘role’ we do well.

Bweaty.9187:

Power based, I get excited at a 5k hit. I hear war’s get excited at 35k hit in the same situation.

Wait, what? I am not reading warr forums, nor did I check youtube… Is this for real?…

rogerwilko.6895:

Bweaty.9187:

Power based, I get excited at a 5k hit. I hear war’s get excited at 35k hit in the same situation.

Wait, what? I am not reading warr forums, nor did I check youtube… Is this for real?…

Yep. Thats with Hundred Blades though. Then there is the axe auto attack which is also pretty insane. I’ll let you see for yourself though. Seeing is believing. The magic starts at 5:00. 5:45 for OMGWTF numbers.

The problem with a hundred blades is that since I got moderately good no single warrior has been able to land it on me.

Only when I’m spammed with cc it’s possible, and then you are pretty much kittened… A hundred blades or not.

Cristobal.8640:

The problem with a hundred blades is that since I got moderately good no single warrior has been able to land it on me.

Only when I’m spammed with cc it’s possible, and then you are pretty much kittened… A hundred blades or not.

That’s why Warriors are god-tier in PvE and lowest tier in PvP.

The only thing about Necros in WvW is the lack of a leap, in my opinion. I’ve played a Necro since beta, and the only real thing that bothers me is the effort I need to put to escape from a fight. An extremely simple fix, in my opinion, would be if we had a leap skill. For example, leap forwards, causing a blast and a swarm of locusts to do something to an enemy. That’s for solo roaming tho. In group settings Necros are absolute beasts. I always hate fighting them.

Yeah the state of Wars now is pretty silly. In function they are squishier then thieves because they have no good defensive mechanics. Whereas we have DS, Locust Signet and one of the best heals in the game. Warrior mobility is good with the right weapons, but unfortunately warriors mobile weapons (sword, warhorn, GS) are not very good in pvp.

Warriors can stability stomp, but usually die before they can finish the animation unless they blow the 90s cd endure pain…

I’m really torn between my War and Necro. Neither of them have the tools to win insane 5v1 fights like rouge, mesmer and guard do.

Ravezaar.4951:

Well I guess thats when skill comes in then & easy-moders go out

When roaming in WvW mobility is king.

Necro has the worst mobility in the game.
If you get in a 5vs1 you die.

When I roam on my Thief I can escape and return back later when the odds are in my favor.

Necros are definitely good in Zergs though!

Spamwhining on the forums turns people off the class. To be fair, I have no idea how we are in PvE, but as far as PvP, 99% of the posters on here don’t play at a level where the tiny edges and corners we might lack actually impact results. In WvW we are probably stronger than most, not that it even matters, since 90% of WvW is numbers. Like the above poster mentioned, we’re good in zergs, and zergs are where the majority of the points AND the rank come from (which could use a change imo). I don’t think the escape comparison is entirely warranted however. Sure, we lack the ability to disengage that thieves (oh, the stealth class can disengage better than us, BUFFPLZ), mesmers, and to a lesser extent, eles have, but we’re pretty much better than anything else at disengaging. Rangers are situationally on par. I’ve escaped plenty of 1v5s. Hell, I’ve won some 1v4s.

In pvp, our real issues are rangers, which are a huge counter to us, being fotm, while eles, our other biggest counter, are still in their current ‘whatconditions?’ state. Then add engis damage being a bit better while providing very comparable utility, and you have the perfect storm for a necro hostile meta. Well, you could go deeper and ask why we’ve always fought with engis (and at one stage rangers) for the fifth spot on a team. When one class is doing well, the other is on the outer, because neither fill core roles that certain other classes have put their stamps on (guardian being the most obvious offender).

Sure, I’d like more mobility, perma vigor, four second stability on a five second recharge, and maybe swap staff 1 for lich 1 while we’re at it, but lacking those isn’t why necros aren’t currently seeing play.

The five main ‘necro’ problems I see:
1. Only one class has wards, bubbles, blocks, and CC to rotate.
2. Both explosives kits apply more pressure than any weapon set we have, mainly because their 1 skills are also aoe.
3. Only 2 classes can burst off their weapon set and defend off their mechanic+weapon set. This allows them to spec for burst and use utilities as actual utilities, rather than using those slots to prop the spec up like say, warriors have to.
4. Healing spring.
5. Elementalists.

Those are the things keeping necros off teams. There is no room to build around the synergies between them and other classes, because most of the team is autofilled by guardian/ele/mesmer. Simply providing more role differentiation between necro and engi would be a good start, because as things stand, if one is stronger, and one always will be by whatever tiny margin, the other isn’t wanted.

@Last Day

yes I agree if u want to roam Solo DONT play a Necro, even with Spectral Walk,Locust Signet & Flesh Wurm your movement is limited compared to most other classes. Necro i still an excellent 1v1 class imo played Correctly but keep in mind if the 4-5 guys come, there is nowhere to run.

Also dont understand this 35k+ HB chat.. Necro isnt a burst Class. Most ppl who do any kind of decent PvP/WvW knows this. On my Necro i rarely to never die to a Warrior and when it happens its to a defensive/Stun-Hammer Warrior. Warriors despite that burst is considered the weakest 1v1-class in game atm (look at sPvP)

as Iv said Before play Necroas its should a great DD Class with massive AoE(more then any other). It excells in WvW as a Power/Well Necro. For 1v1 look more into Spectral Attunements & Deathshroud

Rave

Ravezaar.4951:

Necro isnt a burst Class. Most ppl who do any kind of decent PvP/WvW knows this.

Khalifa would probably like to have a word with you there.

Necro can burst fine…

yski.7642:

Ravezaar.4951:

Necro isnt a burst Class. Most ppl who do any kind of decent PvP/WvW knows this.

Khalifa would probably like to have a word with you there.

Khalifas burst definitely gives you more ways to react than a thief or mes. Still remember the first few times I encountered him timewarped in lich though, and if you don’t have an answer, you’re probably losing that game. He is the reason I first tried corrupt boon iirc.

Necros are amazing and I will wreck you in sPvP and necros in WvW are invalueable. Sure there are problems but every class has this. Why are necros bad? Because no one learns 2 play

Maybe looking from a spvp team perspective you are somewhat lacking but there are ways to play around it.

ManaCraft.5630:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

SPVP is where necromancers have the most problems. In PVE they are fine, and in WvW is where they shine.

To be precise, necromancers do not shine in WvW. They shine in zergs. Once you move outside of the Babysitter Blob™ the exact same dynamics that you see in PvP begin to apply across the board.

Although most WvW is zergs, you are neglecting to mention that sPVP and fighting in WvW are completely different, even if it is 1 vs. 1. For one, in WvW there are more builds to choose from. Second, sPVP is about level skirmishes at points where WvW is more about assaulting/defending keeps and towers and choke points. Third, individual kills and the ability to “pwn noobs” means almost nothing in the long run of WvW whereas in sPVP that ability is quite important. Fourth, in WvW is it a lot easier to group up, even with just 3 or so people, whereas in sPVP the multiple objectives makes soloing an important skill to have. Fifth, in large scale fights the situational tools are far more useful since the chances of that “situation” arising approaches 100%. All in all, even away from the zerg WvW is almost nothing like sPVP.

Sure, in sPVP the inability to kill your target means less team points, both from the lack of kill and the lack of control on that point. In sPVP the ability to escape is important since you can quickly run to support another fight, where you’ll be far more useful than in a stalemate. Sure, in sPVP the ability to fight off more than one player at a time is important due to how the chaos of the field leads to players ganging up on each other more often. But none of that is true in WvW.

I hear about thieves who run zerker builds who try to burst someone down. Either they fail to kill their opponent and run away, or they manage to kill their foe and maybe get a loot bag. Either way, that thief has accomplished very little in WvW. If a thief attacks you and then gets away, that is a victory. Your goal is not to pwn n00bs. The goal is to capture outposts and defend towers, and the necromancer’s tools are excellent at that. Those are where all the points are acquired, so doing something other than that is an exercise in futility. In the zerg, the necromancer’s unavoidable AoE damage and support abilities are great, and net way more loot than if they ran around by themselves trying to burst down random lone players.

The odd thing is that I usually do pwn n00bs in WvW on the rare occasions I am attacked while by myself. The only time I’m ever solo’d is when I’m trying to capture outposts by myself, and someone manages to attack me from behind. The best way to get anything other than a thief is to use the chills from chillblains, dark path, spectral grasp, chill of death, and spinal shivers. In all probability, the necromancer is running multiple forms of those, and also has cripple from grasping dead or locust swarm or unholy feast. Even against a thief these are quite useful, since thieves rarely have an answer for chill and cripple. Using DS at strategic points is important, since if used correctly the combination of things like the chill, the fear, the high direct damage of the auto attack, retaliation, and instant enfeebling blood can down something quickly, being both and offensive and defensive maneuver. On offensive it can counter-attack and down zerker thieves quickly, and on defensive it can waste the mesmer’s shatter and apply conditions to them at the same time. Doing things like using epidemic on the nearby NPC that you’re fighting can sometimes drop multiple players in one go, giving them 20 stacks of bleed in an instant.

I also don’t have problems escaping fights. This might be from my tendency to main the staff in WvW, but should a situation arise that I don’t want to be in I just run away while laying down marks and wells behind me, making chasing me suicidal. The chill from Chillblains and the condition transfer form putrid mark really help, since any disability they throw on me gets sent right back at them. I really don’t know what the complaint is. Even against thieves who pop in and out of stealth a lot, you can just lay down marks for protection or use unholy feast to escape + grant retaliation, depending on what set you use. Heck, shadow refuge basically paints a gigantic target that says “Marks and Wells here!”.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

ManaCraft.5630:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

SPVP is where necromancers have the most problems. In PVE they are fine, and in WvW is where they shine.

To be precise, necromancers do not shine in WvW. They shine in zergs. Once you move outside of the Babysitter Blob™ the exact same dynamics that you see in PvP begin to apply across the board.

Although most WvW is zergs, you are neglecting to mention that sPVP and fighting in WvW are completely different, even if it is 1 vs. 1. For one, in WvW there are more builds to choose from. Second, sPVP is about level skirmishes at points where WvW is more about assaulting/defending keeps and towers and choke points. Third, individual kills and the ability to “pwn noobs” means almost nothing in the long run of WvW whereas in sPVP that ability is quite important. Fourth, in WvW is it a lot easier to group up, even with just 3 or so people, whereas in sPVP the multiple objectives makes soloing an important skill to have. Fifth, in large scale fights the situational tools are far more useful since the chances of that “situation” arising approaches 100%. All in all, even away from the zerg WvW is almost nothing like sPVP.

Sure, in sPVP the inability to kill your target means less team points, both from the lack of kill and the lack of control on that point. In sPVP the ability to escape is important since you can quickly run to support another fight, where you’ll be far more useful than in a stalemate. Sure, in sPVP the ability to fight off more than one player at a time is important due to how the chaos of the field leads to players ganging up on each other more often. But none of that is true in WvW.

I hear about thieves who run zerker builds who try to burst someone down. Either they fail to kill their opponent and run away, or they manage to kill their foe and maybe get a loot bag. Either way, that thief has accomplished very little in WvW. If a thief attacks you and then gets away, that is a victory. Your goal is not to pwn n00bs. The goal is to capture outposts and defend towers, and the necromancer’s tools are excellent at that. Those are where all the points are acquired, so doing something other than that is an exercise in futility. In the zerg, the necromancer’s unavoidable AoE damage and support abilities are great, and net way more loot than if they ran around by themselves trying to burst down random lone players.

The odd thing is that I usually do pwn n00bs in WvW on the rare occasions I am attacked while by myself. The only time I’m ever solo’d is when I’m trying to capture outposts by myself, and someone manages to attack me from behind. The best way to get anything other than a thief is to use the chills from chillblains, dark path, spectral grasp, chill of death, and spinal shivers. In all probability, the necromancer is running multiple forms of those, and also has cripple from grasping dead or locust swarm or unholy feast. Even against a thief these are quite useful, since thieves rarely have an answer for chill and cripple. Using DS at strategic points is important, since if used correctly the combination of things like the chill, the fear, the high direct damage of the auto attack, retaliation, and instant enfeebling blood can down something quickly, being both and offensive and defensive maneuver. On offensive it can counter-attack and down zerker thieves quickly, and on defensive it can waste the mesmer’s shatter and apply conditions to them at the same time. Doing things like using epidemic on the nearby NPC that you’re fighting can sometimes drop multiple players in one go, giving them 20 stacks of bleed in an instant.

I also don’t have problems escaping fights. This might be from my tendency to main the staff in WvW, but should a situation arise that I don’t want to be in I just run away while laying down marks and wells behind me, making chasing me suicidal. The chill from Chillblains and the condition transfer form putrid mark really help, since any disability they throw on me gets sent right back at them. I really don’t know what the complaint is. Even against thieves who pop in and out of stealth a lot, you can just lay down marks for protection or use unholy feast to escape + grant retaliation, depending on what set you use. Heck, shadow refuge basically paints a gigantic target that says “Marks and Wells here!”.

I salute you

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

ManaCraft.5630:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

SPVP is where necromancers have the most problems. In PVE they are fine, and in WvW is where they shine.

To be precise, necromancers do not shine in WvW. They shine in zergs. Once you move outside of the Babysitter Blob™ the exact same dynamics that you see in PvP begin to apply across the board.

Although most WvW is zergs, you are neglecting to mention that sPVP and fighting in WvW are completely different, even if it is 1 vs. 1. For one, in WvW there are more builds to choose from. Second, sPVP is about level skirmishes at points where WvW is more about assaulting/defending keeps and towers and choke points. Third, individual kills and the ability to “pwn noobs” means almost nothing in the long run of WvW whereas in sPVP that ability is quite important. Fourth, in WvW is it a lot easier to group up, even with just 3 or so people, whereas in sPVP the multiple objectives makes soloing an important skill to have. Fifth, in large scale fights the situational tools are far more useful since the chances of that “situation” arising approaches 100%. All in all, even away from the zerg WvW is almost nothing like sPVP.

Sure, in sPVP the inability to kill your target means less team points, both from the lack of kill and the lack of control on that point. In sPVP the ability to escape is important since you can quickly run to support another fight, where you’ll be far more useful than in a stalemate. Sure, in sPVP the ability to fight off more than one player at a time is important due to how the chaos of the field leads to players ganging up on each other more often. But none of that is true in WvW.

I hear about thieves who run zerker builds who try to burst someone down. Either they fail to kill their opponent and run away, or they manage to kill their foe and maybe get a loot bag. Either way, that thief has accomplished very little in WvW. If a thief attacks you and then gets away, that is a victory. Your goal is not to pwn n00bs. The goal is to capture outposts and defend towers, and the necromancer’s tools are excellent at that. Those are where all the points are acquired, so doing something other than that is an exercise in futility. In the zerg, the necromancer’s unavoidable AoE damage and support abilities are great, and net way more loot than if they ran around by themselves trying to burst down random lone players.

The odd thing is that I usually do pwn n00bs in WvW on the rare occasions I am attacked while by myself. The only time I’m ever solo’d is when I’m trying to capture outposts by myself, and someone manages to attack me from behind. The best way to get anything other than a thief is to use the chills from chillblains, dark path, spectral grasp, chill of death, and spinal shivers. In all probability, the necromancer is running multiple forms of those, and also has cripple from grasping dead or locust swarm or unholy feast. Even against a thief these are quite useful, since thieves rarely have an answer for chill and cripple. Using DS at strategic points is important, since if used correctly the combination of things like the chill, the fear, the high direct damage of the auto attack, retaliation, and instant enfeebling blood can down something quickly, being both and offensive and defensive maneuver. On offensive it can counter-attack and down zerker thieves quickly, and on defensive it can waste the mesmer’s shatter and apply conditions to them at the same time. Doing things like using epidemic on the nearby NPC that you’re fighting can sometimes drop multiple players in one go, giving them 20 stacks of bleed in an instant.

I also don’t have problems escaping fights. This might be from my tendency to main the staff in WvW, but should a situation arise that I don’t want to be in I just run away while laying down marks and wells behind me, making chasing me suicidal. The chill from Chillblains and the condition transfer form putrid mark really help, since any disability they throw on me gets sent right back at them. I really don’t know what the complaint is. Even against thieves who pop in and out of stealth a lot, you can just lay down marks for protection or use unholy feast to escape + grant retaliation, depending on what set you use. Heck, shadow refuge basically paints a gigantic target that says “Marks and Wells here!”.

Always good to read someone who actually knows what he is talking about.
+1

I would like to add that if you wish to do so you can also make a “roamer” type of build that is very effective up to 1v3, of course this means sacrificing a lot of potential for the actual objectives of WvW, but you can do it if you really want to.

Cristobal.8640:

Always good to read someone who actually knows what he is talking about.
+1

I would like to add that if you wish to do so you can also make a “roamer” type of build that is very effective up to 1v3, of course this means sacrificing a lot of potential for the actual objectives of WvW, but you can do it if you really want to.

What tier are you in that you’re 1v3ing and surviving, and are you counting up levels in this?

The only difference between tier 1 and the lowest tier is the amount of people online, and the quality of commanders. WvWers in general are pretty terrible players.

Kravick.4906:

Cristobal.8640:

Always good to read someone who actually knows what he is talking about.
+1

I would like to add that if you wish to do so you can also make a “roamer” type of build that is very effective up to 1v3, of course this means sacrificing a lot of potential for the actual objectives of WvW, but you can do it if you really want to.

What tier are you in that you’re 1v3ing and surviving, and are you counting up levels in this?

Now I’m curious myself.
How can a build be strong against up to 3 people, but sacrifice potential for the “actual objectives”?

Bhawb.7408:

The only difference between tier 1 and the lowest tier is the amount of people online, and the quality of commanders. WvWers in general are pretty terrible players.

So you say, but I’ve been on a server that has experienced multiple tier jumps over the last 6 months. There is definitely a higher level of skill that roamers possess at the upper tiers. You would be correct about the zerglings, however.

In the lower tiers, I was able to roam with my necro to some success. I was also able to consistently land my Dark Pact at the lower tiers. People didn’t know how to dodge my telegraphed moves or something. There were a lot less 1vX fights to be had, but they did exist. Its almost impossible to roam as a necro in T2, however. People are a lot smarter about dodging and poking people before committing to a full engagement. I imagine its even worse in T1 as I hear almost no one roams alone any more at that tier.

^As a T2 roamer, myself, necros are just odd things I see from time to time, like cicadas.

They’re ugly colors with red and blue eyes.. eww..

..and I have no problem stomping necros either.

^^^Laying down marks makes following you suicidal? Who have you been fighting? …even my glassy toons have enough regen and auto-cleanse that they can ignore marks.

Kravick.4906:

Bhawb.7408:

The only difference between tier 1 and the lowest tier is the amount of people online, and the quality of commanders. WvWers in general are pretty terrible players.

So you say, but I’ve been on a server that has experienced multiple tier jumps over the last 6 months. There is definitely a higher level of skill that roamers possess at the upper tiers. You would be correct about the zerglings, however.

In the lower tiers, I was able to roam with my necro to some success. I was also able to consistently land my Dark Pact at the lower tiers. People didn’t know how to dodge my telegraphed moves or something. There were a lot less 1vX fights to be had, but they did exist. Its almost impossible to roam as a necro in T2, however. People are a lot smarter about dodging and poking people before committing to a full engagement. I imagine its even worse in T1 as I hear almost no one roams alone any more at that tier.

I think you are both right.
Ambitious WvW players will at some point abandon the unpopulated servers to join the action in higher tiers. Therefore the higher tiers naturally have the most deticated and skillful players.
However, the success of a server is of course only due to which one has the most players, the biggest zergs, and who pulls all-nighters to capture points while the others take their beauty sleep. That’s where the highest scores come from.

Kravick.4906:

I imagine its even worse in T1 as I hear almost no one roams alone any more at that tier.

I can only speak for EU here, but I can’t remember a time when my server was not in T2. However, the new match making algorithm moved two T2 servers up to T1 and vice versa. So now we’ve been up against 4 out of 5 opposing T1/2 servers.
Bottom line: overall no difference in individual skill, just in numbers.

Ezeriel.9574:

^^^Laying down marks makes following you suicidal? Who have you been fighting? …even my glassy toons have enough regen and auto-cleanse that they can ignore marks.

I have to agree with this statement. Necro marks do very low damage and the conditions they cause are no threat to anyone really, which are easily cleansed. Even with a pure glass cannon power build you’ll only get maybe 4k out of staff 4. Other classekitten harder than that with abilities on much shorter cool downs. Marks are also one of the only moves that you can see brightly lit up like a light bulb and they’re a huge dodge through me sign unless you drop them on top of someone.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

For one, in WvW there are more builds to choose from. Second, sPVP is about level skirmishes at points where WvW is more about assaulting/defending keeps and towers and choke points. Third, individual kills and the ability to “pwn noobs” means almost nothing in the long run of WvW whereas in sPVP that ability is quite important. Fourth, in WvW is it a lot easier to group up, even with just 3 or so people, whereas in sPVP the multiple objectives makes soloing an important skill to have. Fifth, in large scale fights the situational tools are far more useful since the chances of that “situation” arising approaches 100%.

Ugh…

You bring up a bunch of peripheral points, none of which really get to the heart of the matter. I was hoping I wouldn’t have to do a point by point argument over something like this, since that kind of debate has a tendency to only get further bogged down in those peripherals, which kind of ends up derailing the thread. But since you did take the time to produce a well written wall of text, I guess giving it a go is the least I can do. I’ll try to keep it brief though.

1) While there may be more viable builds in WvW, this does not at all speak to the viability of the attrition aspects (or lack thereof) of those builds. The issue is not the amount of builds, it is the amount of sustainability the necro gains (or, as I would argue, doesn’t gain) in each build.
2) In terms of what the ultimate goal is, yes. But in order to achieve your goal in WvW, skirmishing is required (and is nowhere near as rare an occurrence as you describe imho).
3) So the necromancers complete inability to function as an attrition class in WvW in any non-zerg XvX scenario is unimportant because those fights are largely not reflected as much on the scoreboard?
4) Yup. But that still does not speak to the viability (or lack thereof) of the necro as an attrition class. Assuming you were pitted against an enemy force of equal numbers, you would still suffer from the same deficiencies unless the people you joined up with constitute a large enough group that you can effectively hide in the crowd.
5) Agreed. The necro has excellent offensive potential in large scale fights.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

snip
But none of that is true in WvW.

Well, we simply disagree that those aspects are not important in WvW. The outcomes of those events aren’t reflected as readily on the scoreboard though. But it’s just not true that the outcomes of small/medium sized fights are not important in WvW (also, do not think that small/medium scale fights only occur over small/medium sized targets).

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

The goal is to capture outposts and defend towers, and the necromancer’s tools are excellent at that.

Again, assuming you do it as part of a large enough group, yes.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I just run away while laying down marks and wells behind me, making chasing me suicidal

I do this when appropriate as well, but it’s a double-edged sword, since if you hit a target you will be kept in combat for that much longer. Also, a few marks on the ground will hardly make chasing a necro “suicidal”. In any case, as I’ve mentioned elsewhere, I don’t believe necros should be given actual escape mechanisms (ie leaps, ground targeted ports, etc). Attrition mechanisms that allows the necro to stay functional in combat for a longer period of time are much more appropriate given the nature of the class.

flow.6043:

I can only speak for EU here, but I can’t remember a time when my server was not in T2. However, the new match making algorithm moved two T2 servers up to T1 and vice versa. So now we’ve been up against 4 out of 5 opposing T1/2 servers.
Bottom line: overall no difference in individual skill, just in numbers.

T1 and T2 might be close enough that the only real difference is numbers. However, I remember a time my server was in T6. This was months ago, however. I’ve been in T2 for a long time now. The lower tiers I just remember roflstomping people on my necro left and right while roaming.

When my server finally moved up from T3 to T2, there was a noticable difference. Not so much in skill, though I do feel that did go up if only slightly, but the fact that people no longer solo roamed nearly as much. Everyone from the 2 other T2 servers would run in pairs or in 3s. Everyone knows that necros are probably the worst 1vX class in the game next to warriors. It was about this time that I leveled a thief as I was simply not capable of dealing with people in numbers like that as a necromancer. My thief and my ranger don’t have this problem and can do 1vX attrition fights easily. Its actually quite funny getting invited by someone you just killed as a ranger and complimented. You almost never see roaming rangers, but that bunker build is REALLY good at attrition fighting. Necros don’t have a build that can last forever like that.

Necros marks don’t make people die, they’re just a nuisance when 1vX, a small one at that. I’m in Tier 7-8 and they just evade through them while chasing me or just plain trigger them and remove the speed debuffs. SA thiefs are even worst, removing a condition every 3 sec in stealth and healing at the same time, they just laugh at our marks. Wells on stationary target is another matter, but even less of an issue if they’re going through them to reach a running necro.

I don’t mind pointing our strong points in group vs group fights, or when defending/assaulting keeps, but roaming alone vs many is not our forte.

Who the kitten lays their marks on the ground instead of swiftly deploying them to the intended targets, btw?

Only the low cooldown ones when you expect them to be up before your enemy comes to you so you can make him waste a dodge or get regeneration.

People complaining the low damage putrid mark does on a glasscanon build are missing the entire point of the skill.

flow.6043:

Kravick.4906:

Cristobal.8640:

Always good to read someone who actually knows what he is talking about.
+1

I would like to add that if you wish to do so you can also make a “roamer” type of build that is very effective up to 1v3, of course this means sacrificing a lot of potential for the actual objectives of WvW, but you can do it if you really want to.

What tier are you in that you’re 1v3ing and surviving, and are you counting up levels in this?

Now I’m curious myself.
How can a build be strong against up to 3 people, but sacrifice potential for the “actual objectives”?

Blood red arachnid already explained very well why and how necros are actually very good when doing the WvW objectives (A large part of wich is done via zerg vs zerg unfortunatelu)

I believe that to run a strong roaming necro one has to understand the strenghts of the class and play with them. So you don’t have any mobility? Then ignore mobility altogether and focus on disabling your enemie’s mobility. We happen to be very kittening good at that.

The use of worm and spectral wall together in a minion build for example provides a teleport that stunbreaks and casts area chaos armor on your minions, also granting lifeforce and the spectral wall buffs and debuffs… This can turn the “aoe is going to ravage me and my minions” situation into “enemy is getting mindkittened” situation pretty fast.

I think the main problem with the necro is the stale state of the meta, and you have premade builds and poor creativity to thank for that. If you look at most of the builds available on the internet, most of them are actually builds built around a “theme” like minions or siphoning and whatnot, if you want to shine you have to do the theorycrafting exercise of min-maxing.

If anyone plays Magic The Gathering they will be pretty familiar with the differences between a deck built around a theme, a mechanic and whatnot, and a deck that is pretty much built to win at tournament level, with heavy “min-maxing”, color splashing and all that.

Of course if the 3 people you are fighting are of equal or greater skill than you you will either have a very hard time or downright loose depending on the classes you fight, necro is not an immortal god or anything, but it does better than what people would think.

Currently experimenting with a mix of minions and power-support, mostly cleric gear with some soldier jewels to get over 25k. Will post on this forum is the results are good.

The health minion heals you 1k per hit and has 20k hp BTW. A lot has changed with some patches… It is now actually better than the other healing skills on a lot of situations

You sacrifice potential to do the “real objectives” because a roaming type of build is not as effective as a zerg oriented one when it comes to zergs. I do believe you can make balanced hybrids that are decently effective at both, tho.

One problem we do have is that skilled thieves and mesmers can escape the fight if they wish so, unless you are runing a build made to catch people… Wich I wouldn’t do anyway, if they flee like cowards, I won.

JonathanSharp.7094:

We think that Warriors need more sustain in sPvP. You’ll see this reflected in upcoming balance changes.

I can see this, and be fine with it. But NECROS need more sustain too. Apparently Anet doesn’t think so. As last dev podcast, they seemed to think we just need the ‘meta to shift’.

How is ‘necros are only good in numbers v numbers’ and ‘no one roams alone in higher tiers’ a coherent argument? Are you trying to say that necros are too strong in wvw? Or are you saying that we need a buff because you lost a 1vnumbers?

Kravick.4906:

rogerwilko.6895:

Bweaty.9187:

Power based, I get excited at a 5k hit. I hear war’s get excited at 35k hit in the same situation.

Wait, what? I am not reading warr forums, nor did I check youtube… Is this for real?…

Yep. Thats with Hundred Blades though. Then there is the axe auto attack which is also pretty insane. I’ll let you see for yourself though. Seeing is believing. The magic starts at 5:00. 5:45 for OMGWTF numbers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVi8vaY-gVA

‘warrior strategy’ that’s cute.

I have tested for myself with my warr and my necro:
– lvl 80 warr, blue gear mostly soldier(or what`s the name); defensive build(traits); blue weapons (1 sword, 1gs, 1 axe)
– lv 80 necro, mainly zerk gear from CoF and some yellow soldier trinkets; defensive traits; zerk dagger/horn from CoF

=> went to mount Maelstrom near the Golem area(random picked zone), and killed all types of mobs I could find.
_______________________________
Impressions:
- warr did more dmg with all weps (even with the 1h sword dammit).
- necro dagger seams ok when you only play the necro, after you compare it with something else you start to see that the dagger chain is meh, somewhat slow, and the delay after the third hit is annoying.
- I had an easier time moving around with the warr, and it seamed easier to survive; must be the gear here, necro had zerker gear, warr had soldier.
- I was not impressed witht the staff ‘utility’ as in, when I had 2-3 debuffs on me (bleeds, chilled) I was swapping to staff, used #4, got the debuffs on the mobs (HA! TAKE THAT MOBS!) then promptly had a new set of debuffs on me… Anyway, this works better in pvp situations me thinks….

Now don`t get all worked up guys, all the above was done by a casual player.
I don`t like you Lightsbane.9012