Guild Wars 2

@Clairenix.2780
I apologize if my post /rant came off as a personal attack in your direction.
I absolutely did not mean for it to come across that way.
Also, i don’t discount anyone’s research.
However, most of the player research is unfortunately devoid of the factual data and control necessary to formulate any real and meaningful conclusions. (I am of course largely referring to DPS comparisons here)
I say “most” because there are things that we do in fact know and much good has come from the examination and comparison of this real data.
What i discount is the rhetoric that we see being thrown around and “substantiated” by made-up information.

Hi @Spoj!
I am indeed ignorant, of many things, not just GW2.
Given that fact, i am always open and enthusiastic to learn.
I love to be proven wrong, when it leads me to greater understanding.
So i challenge you; provide context, right my misinterpretations and for the love of god educate me!
I am serious.
I respect your opinions, even when i don’t agree with them.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Garo.5304:

It’s because this forum is particularly obsessed with melee grade DPS. For some reason necros have to be able to do it to. If you win a fight even though the math says you’ll lose. The math is no longer valid.

I don’t think the math has ever said Necros will lose a fight. It just says that another class might win the fight faster.

Another class or another Icebow?

http://gw2dungeons.net/Records

Here are the GW2 dungeon speed records. What do you notice about the class representations? Every single group has at least two Elementalists. I wonder why?

You know what else is interesting?

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE NEW RECORD POST ICEBOW NERF.

Funny that.

I suspect that the site is going to become very stale since its going to be hard work trying to top speeds done by groups generating 80k dps per Ele abusing exploits.

Maxzero.4032:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Garo.5304:

It’s because this forum is particularly obsessed with melee grade DPS. For some reason necros have to be able to do it to. If you win a fight even though the math says you’ll lose. The math is no longer valid.

I don’t think the math has ever said Necros will lose a fight. It just says that another class might win the fight faster.

Another class or another Icebow?

http://gw2dungeons.net/Records

Here are the GW2 dungeon speed records. What do you notice about the class representations? Every single group has at least two Elementalists. I wonder why?

You know what else is interesting?

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE NEW RECORD POST ICEBOW NERF.

Funny that.

I suspect that the site is going to become very stale since its going to be hard work trying to top speeds done by groups generating 80k dps per Ele abusing exploits.

the records were reset for the launch of Heart of thorns.

heart of thorns has been out for a very short amount of time.

the People that make records are busy playing the game and enjoying the new content and learning the new specs.

dont worry I am sure some will start popping up soon.

That being said, get yourself a group and put one up. Maybe stir up some competition. and maybe you will learn something along the way…

Ropechef.6192:

Maxzero.4032:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Garo.5304:

It’s because this forum is particularly obsessed with melee grade DPS. For some reason necros have to be able to do it to. If you win a fight even though the math says you’ll lose. The math is no longer valid.

I don’t think the math has ever said Necros will lose a fight. It just says that another class might win the fight faster.

Another class or another Icebow?

http://gw2dungeons.net/Records

Here are the GW2 dungeon speed records. What do you notice about the class representations? Every single group has at least two Elementalists. I wonder why?

You know what else is interesting?

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE NEW RECORD POST ICEBOW NERF.

Funny that.

I suspect that the site is going to become very stale since its going to be hard work trying to top speeds done by groups generating 80k dps per Ele abusing exploits.

the records were reset for the launch of Heart of thorns.

heart of thorns has been out for a very short amount of time.

the People that make records are busy playing the game and enjoying the new content and learning the new specs.

dont worry I am sure some will start popping up soon.

That being said, get yourself a group and put one up. Maybe stir up some competition. and maybe you will learn something along the way…

Actually there was over three weeks between the Icebow nerf and HoT launch. Its amazing how in that time no one bothered to try and up their times (or maybe they did try and gave up…).

How much do you want to bet that those old times will not be topped anytime soon? Shall we see in a few months?

Maxzero.4032:

Ropechef.6192:

Maxzero.4032:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Garo.5304:

It’s because this forum is particularly obsessed with melee grade DPS. For some reason necros have to be able to do it to. If you win a fight even though the math says you’ll lose. The math is no longer valid.

I don’t think the math has ever said Necros will lose a fight. It just says that another class might win the fight faster.

Another class or another Icebow?

http://gw2dungeons.net/Records

Here are the GW2 dungeon speed records. What do you notice about the class representations? Every single group has at least two Elementalists. I wonder why?

You know what else is interesting?

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE NEW RECORD POST ICEBOW NERF.

Funny that.

I suspect that the site is going to become very stale since its going to be hard work trying to top speeds done by groups generating 80k dps per Ele abusing exploits.

the records were reset for the launch of Heart of thorns.

heart of thorns has been out for a very short amount of time.

the People that make records are busy playing the game and enjoying the new content and learning the new specs.

dont worry I am sure some will start popping up soon.

That being said, get yourself a group and put one up. Maybe stir up some competition. and maybe you will learn something along the way…

Actually there was over three weeks between the Icebow nerf and HoT launch. Its amazing how in that time no one bothered to try and up their times (or maybe they did try and gave up…).

How much do you want to bet that those old times will not be topped anytime soon? Shall we see in a few months?

Why would people go for new times if everyone knows they’re going to be reset in a few weeks?
If you do something like that, you want to stay there for as long as possible. It would’ve made no sense to put up a record run now.

Also, it’s amazing how people are still salty about ice bows.

Maxzero.4032:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Garo.5304:

It’s because this forum is particularly obsessed with melee grade DPS. For some reason necros have to be able to do it to. If you win a fight even though the math says you’ll lose. The math is no longer valid.

I don’t think the math has ever said Necros will lose a fight. It just says that another class might win the fight faster.

Another class or another Icebow?

http://gw2dungeons.net/Records

Here are the GW2 dungeon speed records. What do you notice about the class representations? Every single group has at least two Elementalists. I wonder why?

You know what else is interesting?

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE NEW RECORD POST ICEBOW NERF.

Funny that.

I suspect that the site is going to become very stale since its going to be hard work trying to top speeds done by groups generating 80k dps per Ele abusing exploits.

I don’t care about icebows, or records. I was just stating what the math said, objectively. Even if the math was wrong.

I don’t see enough people mentioning how good we are at destroying break bars which i find is very useful where meleeing is risky like Mossman or Mai Trin.
The fleshgolem alone absolutely annihilates it, and then we still have GS#4,5 and RS 2,3 and especially 5. Still need some more? RS4 in an icefield or slot spectral grasp and you can keep it down on your own most of the time.
I’m frankly not aware of another class that is as effective at it, engi is probably really good at it as well but haven’t seen any take advantage of their CC.

Petrol.9086:

I don’t see enough people mentioning how good we are at destroying break bars which i find is very useful where meleeing is risky like Mossman or Mai Trin.
The fleshgolem alone absolutely annihilates it, and then we still have GS#4,5 and RS 2,3 and especially 5. Still need some more? RS4 in an icefield or slot spectral grasp and you can keep it down on your own most of the time.
I’m frankly not aware of another class that is as effective at it, engi is probably really good at it as well but haven’t seen any take advantage of their CC.

I think the only skill that goes through Mai Trin’s shield is Flesh Golem’s Charge (at least I have yet to see another skill do it) which almost completely wrecks her bar, making it easy to keep her inside electric fields to get rid of her shield.

Maxzero.4032:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Garo.5304:

It’s because this forum is particularly obsessed with melee grade DPS. For some reason necros have to be able to do it to. If you win a fight even though the math says you’ll lose. The math is no longer valid.

I don’t think the math has ever said Necros will lose a fight. It just says that another class might win the fight faster.

Another class or another Icebow?

http://gw2dungeons.net/Records

Here are the GW2 dungeon speed records. What do you notice about the class representations? Every single group has at least two Elementalists. I wonder why?

You know what else is interesting?

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE NEW RECORD POST ICEBOW NERF.

Funny that.

I suspect that the site is going to become very stale since its going to be hard work trying to top speeds done by groups generating 80k dps per Ele abusing exploits.

Funny how you bring up a completely relevant point with observable data and it is immediately pettifogged and ignored…

BoogerSammich.7189:

Maxzero.4032:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Garo.5304:

It’s because this forum is particularly obsessed with melee grade DPS. For some reason necros have to be able to do it to. If you win a fight even though the math says you’ll lose. The math is no longer valid.

I don’t think the math has ever said Necros will lose a fight. It just says that another class might win the fight faster.

Another class or another Icebow?

http://gw2dungeons.net/Records

Here are the GW2 dungeon speed records. What do you notice about the class representations? Every single group has at least two Elementalists. I wonder why?

You know what else is interesting?

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE NEW RECORD POST ICEBOW NERF.

Funny that.

I suspect that the site is going to become very stale since its going to be hard work trying to top speeds done by groups generating 80k dps per Ele abusing exploits.

Funny how you bring up a completely relevant point with observable data and it is immediately pettifogged and ignored…

Empirical Ice Bow records had nothing to do with my comment. I was talking about comparing theoretical math, and how the only thing it has ever suggested is that other classes could do content faster. It has never stated that Necros couldn’t complete content.

I don’t care about yourthat propaganda.

EDIT – Clarity.

spoj.9672:

BoogerSammich.7189:

Unfortunately this particular contingent is very loud, and volume is how ignorance often tends to spread itself…

Couldnt agree more with this comment.

The amount of times we get anti meta propaganda thrown at us, full of ignorance, misinterpretations and generally taking things out of context, is beyond tiring.

Often times I find necros have been the biggest perpetrators of this, as well. Shouting how badly we suck, apparently.

BoogerSammich.7189:

Maxzero.4032:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Garo.5304:

It’s because this forum is particularly obsessed with melee grade DPS. For some reason necros have to be able to do it to. If you win a fight even though the math says you’ll lose. The math is no longer valid.

I don’t think the math has ever said Necros will lose a fight. It just says that another class might win the fight faster.

Another class or another Icebow?

http://gw2dungeons.net/Records

Here are the GW2 dungeon speed records. What do you notice about the class representations? Every single group has at least two Elementalists. I wonder why?

You know what else is interesting?

THERE IS NOT A SINGLE NEW RECORD POST ICEBOW NERF.

Funny that.

I suspect that the site is going to become very stale since its going to be hard work trying to top speeds done by groups generating 80k dps per Ele abusing exploits.

Funny how you bring up a completely relevant point with observable data and it is immediately pettifogged and ignored…

If you understood the record scene you would realise this point has no basis whatsoever.

There are many reasons.

1. People are enjoying new content. Records are done when theres a bit less to do and people want to start competing.
2. There needs to be competition to drive a lot of guilds into records again.
3. Dungeons are dead.
4. Fractals are more viable for records now but the balance and rewards are completely screwed so theres no motivation.
5. Ruleset hasnt been decided for fractals. What scales do people compete on etc.
6. Noone was doing records after icebow nerf because we knew they would be wiped again when HoT was released due to major balance changes. (Expected balance changes are a big reason the record scene gets very inactive).
7. Record scene had gotten very inactive even before icebow nerf due to old content and people losing motivation/leaving the game.
8. Even if people did records now there is absolutely no reason many of those all time records cant be beaten. Reason for this is because the biggest contribution to records is mobility and not dps. Now that we have chronomancers we can portal 4 times consecutively.
9. The power creep on other classes should make up for a lot of the burst damage lost on icebow.
10. And this is a big reason. Current record leaderboard is reset with every major balance change. Which means even if all time records cant be beaten we still have a new fair playing field to compete on. So the idea that “theres no point because we cant beat this” is completely absurd.

Im sure theres more reasons. But i cant think of anymore off the top of my head.

@Cogbyrn.7283
Seriously? I wasn’t even responding to you.
Why do you feel like everything i say somehow is directed at you?
Really, i have no beef with you.
Also, “propaganda”. You keep using this word, i do not think it means what you think it means…

@Spoj
Thanks for the response.
Your comments definitely provide a contextual framework that i did not have before reading them.
However, I would argue that your comments, although informed, are mostly subjective opinion.
Whether your opinion and motivations are shared by others is irrelevant in face of the fact that they do nothing to discount or devalue the data that we do have.

EDIT: Hey, at some point should we stop arguing and just get to work on objectively acknowledging our class’ strengths and weaknesses and maybe even suggest improvements?
I dunno, maybe im crazy. You guys let me know what you think.

BoogerSammich.7189:

@Cogbyrn.7283
Seriously? I wasn’t even responding to you.
Why do you feel like everything i say somehow is directed at you?
Really, i have no beef with you.
Also, “propaganda”. You keep using this word, i do not think it means what you think it means…

You mentioned his point was completely relevant, and I was letting you know that his point actually wasn’t relevant at all to what I was saying. You don’t have to direct your comment at me for me to respond to it, and just because I respond doesn’t mean I have a beef with you.

I’m familiar with Inigo Montoya, but I’m also really sick of the anti-record movement. It’s all derailment and capital letters, trying to prove points that aren’t on point. I’m not giving any of it an inch if I can help it, until the movement starts to constructively add to the discussion.

EDIT – I did try to say it was “your” propaganda though, and that was a mistake. I’ll go fix it.

Id say as someone who was involved in actually approving records. I have a fairly good understanding of what drives people to compete. We even had meetings and discussions about what would make people compete again and why they werent competing at the time. So im fully aware of the reasons people didnt compete in the past. And believe it or not most things people have brought up in the past are reasons i listed here because they are relevant here.

So yes some of them may be subjective opinions but they are the exact possible reasons for no records since icebow nerf. You dont need to take my word for it if you dont want to. But who has the most credible knowledge of the situation? Surely someone who has regular contact with most people involved in such records and was heavily involved in them himself? No? No data is not evidence for the initial assumption made. Its simply no data. However i gave you plenty of good well informed reasons for said no data.

Also another thing to just back up my claims with pretty substantial evidence. When FGS was nerfed records did not stop. In fact people learnt to improve times with new innovations to more than make up for the loss of a broken dps tool and the scene grew temporarily because of it.

We are in a slow period because people are still discovering stuff for the elite specs. And raids are coming. Raids will probably become the new thing to compete on. But we need to be prepared for that. So that means gearing, planning, testing and grinding masteries. No time for records on old content right now.

It is funny how linecasting was actually a thing that nobody denies, which further means that people abusing it had such huge damage it was never intended by any means and people are still arguing how it didn’t contribute to improving run times.

I am not denying that maybe you can/could do equal or maybe even better time without it, but to claim how it didn’t matter is just insane and delusional.

And that argument how nobody wanted to do record runs because they knew everything would be reset soon is such a kitten because wasn’t that your last chance to be forever remembered as “best” before major change? From my point of view it was huge motivation to use that time to give your best to beat those times, not the opposite. It is easy and very convenient to hide behind that false excuse.

spoj.9672:

Nemesis.8593:

spoj.9672:

It was like that before. Not so much now.

As i recall… maybe you’ve also seen the video footage of you telling the community that necromancer is inferior to the other classes in terms of DPS, and he also doesn’t bring team support.

Now you say it’s not no longer the case… does that mean reaper is higher DPS then the previous glass cannon ?… Or does it provide that insane team support you guys complained necromancer doesn’t have ?

Or… do you retract the claims you have made to the community in these two years ? Will you also go back on all the trash talking aimed at me in these two years ?…
What about that money you got for MY work ?

I am confused, please explain.

Ok so.

We got CPC projectile block, minions buffed, rise, better dps, deaths charge, an aoe pull (gs5), more vuln, vampiric presence and improved blood magic.

Damage is only a small part of why necromancers are better now.

Necromancers are better, no one is disputing that, Reaper is a very good upgrade and a pretty hefty amount of work went into it but when you sweep $h_t under an expensive carpet you will still smell the $h_t. The best way i can put it

AngryBear.8741:

It is funny how linecasting was actually a thing that nobody denies, which further means that people abusing it had such huge damage it was never intended by any means and people are still arguing how it didn’t contribute to improving run times.

I am not denying that maybe you can/could do equal or maybe even better time without it, but to claim how it didn’t matter is just insane and delusional.

And that argument how nobody wanted to do record runs because they knew everything would be reset soon is such a kitten because wasn’t that your last chance to be forever remembered as “best” before major change? From my point of view it was huge motivation to use that time to give your best to beat those times, not the opposite. It is easy and very convenient to hide behind that false excuse.

Linecasting was banned in records because of community agreement. See http://gw2dungeons.net/Rules and select one of the older rulesets. Rule 8.

I think you are the one being delusional. But i dont expect someone who has never done a record to understand that dps is not the biggest timesaver in most dungeons… Portals and stealth are. DPS is just necessary. If you only go for dps you end up with really slow runs compared to actual records though.

And you clearly dont understand the mindsets of those of us in the record scene if you think an out of date record gives us prestige. We compete for the fun of overcoming challenge in the now (setting the record or beeating a record is fun, holding onto it with no challengers is boring). One of the reasons we reset the records is to allow that competition to continue in the case that a balance patch makes a certain record unbeatable. Although so far there have been many cases where it seemed like it would be unbeatable in some cases(fgs nerf, ferocity patch, might nerf etc etc), and then it was proved wrong by new strategies and innovations.

I sense im probably beating a dead horse right now though.

Ragion.2831:

spoj.9672:

Nemesis.8593:

spoj.9672:

It was like that before. Not so much now.

As i recall… maybe you’ve also seen the video footage of you telling the community that necromancer is inferior to the other classes in terms of DPS, and he also doesn’t bring team support.

Now you say it’s not no longer the case… does that mean reaper is higher DPS then the previous glass cannon ?… Or does it provide that insane team support you guys complained necromancer doesn’t have ?

Or… do you retract the claims you have made to the community in these two years ? Will you also go back on all the trash talking aimed at me in these two years ?…
What about that money you got for MY work ?

I am confused, please explain.

Ok so.

We got CPC projectile block, minions buffed, rise, better dps, deaths charge, an aoe pull (gs5), more vuln, vampiric presence and improved blood magic.

Damage is only a small part of why necromancers are better now.

Necromancers are better, no one is disputing that, Reaper is a very good upgrade and a pretty hefty amount of work went into it but when you sweep $h_t under an expensive carpet you will still smell the $h_t. The best way i can put it

I was just responding to his loaded question. My claims of the past still stand. They are just no longer as relevant because necro has actually improved. As i explained. :P

Fractal leaderboards are going to be the new speedclear records as far as the blogpost stated.

spoj.9672:

AngryBear.8741:

It is funny how linecasting was actually a thing that nobody denies, which further means that people abusing it had such huge damage it was never intended by any means and people are still arguing how it didn’t contribute to improving run times.

I am not denying that maybe you can/could do equal or maybe even better time without it, but to claim how it didn’t matter is just insane and delusional.

And that argument how nobody wanted to do record runs because they knew everything would be reset soon is such a kitten because wasn’t that your last chance to be forever remembered as “best” before major change? From my point of view it was huge motivation to use that time to give your best to beat those times, not the opposite. It is easy and very convenient to hide behind that false excuse.

Linecasting was banned in records because of community agreement. See http://gw2dungeons.net/Rules and select one of the older rulesets. Rule 8.

I think you are the one being delusional. But i dont expect someone who has never done a record to understand that dps is not the biggest timesaver in most dungeons… Portals and stealth are. DPS is just necessary. If you only go for dps you end up with really slow runs compared to actual records though.

And you clearly dont understand the mindsets of those of us in the record scene if you think an out of date record gives us prestige. We compete for the fun of overcoming challenge in the now (setting the record or beeating a record is fun, holding onto it with no challengers is boring). One of the reasons we reset the records is to allow that competition to continue in the case that a balance patch makes a certain record unbeatable. Although so far there have been many cases where it seemed like it would be unbeatable in some cases(fgs nerf, ferocity patch, might nerf etc etc), and then it was proved wrong by new strategies and innovations.

I sense im probably beating a dead horse right now though.

It probably doesnt seem like it on here, but I used to speedrun before I played this game. I decided against speedrunning on here for reasons, but I agree with spoj.

- People want to be the first to do something. Being the last doesn’t mean much of anything. That alone means that people will be practicing to come out of the gates headfirst when the reset happens.
- Pre-reset is like the days between when a truce is reached and when the truce begins. Very few are interested in participating because they know it will be over soon.
- Innovation is amazingly fun, and with all the new specializations there’s a lot of innovation to discover before you buckle down for speedrunning. Some communities are secretive about their techniques until they actually set a record (or make an official attempt). I don’t know how this one is.
- There’s other new stuff they may as well enjoy before reset.

And other stuff…

Cogbyrn.7283:

And it isn’t fake math. It’s real math. It’s the responsibility of the players/community to analyze and understand it properly. Running a propaganda campaign against it is no better than running a propaganda campaign for it.

This is ridiculous. If something is given to be misleading or wrong, then it is actually a lot better to campaign against it than for it.

If you’ve spent any time with people, you’ll know that applied math is wizardry to the layman. The average person is in a mindset such that they don’t realize they can apply middle school math to real life problems. They’ve gotten into the habit of letting “smarter people” handle it for them. So of course they are going to take anything mathematical at face value as cannon.

The DPS calcs should come with a disclaimer that says “unless you are in this exact set of circumstances and achieve perfect play against an enemy that doesn’t fight back, you won’t be getting these numbers”. This is something you have to tell people.

To answer OP’s question

Because the gw2 community is delusional, mixes up speedrunning and Progression, and thinks that speedrunning is what everyone does in this game, there’s a very small speedrunning community, and endgame community overall (Two dozen decent PvP teams, on NA specifically, and less than a hundred “speedrunners”, i can bet on that.)

Progression actually isn’t a thing yet, and no, fractals 100 scaling isn’t progression, get with friends and you can do it easily.

See, i’ve never seen a community that literally does “dungeon” content which is known to be a usual joke in every MMO, which was abandoned by the developers two years ago and think they’re cool for doing something that’s “dead” content a few minutes faster than the other minority group doing it, and then design all of their builds around it and then instruct the people who have no interest in it to do the same.

(Newsflash, berserker isn’t the best stat-set for HoT, if you’re at all considering HoT content hard, even before raids, Swap to cavalier, clerics, rabid, dire, etc, and you’ll do better in every way, there’s very little difference in damage numbers for a player with game-sense who knows how to build with a cavalier/other stat set, and you’re getting a lot more out of the deal, not that damage numbers actually even matter at this point, before or after raids.)

You can literally run any build and with a general game-sense you can get by anywhere, And i’m serious, literally anything, Roll with a all-corruptions build or a full nomads tank guardian and you can probably do anything in the game with a pug group, it’s nonsensical that people even look at speedrunning for dead content to choose which build they run with randoms or organized guild/friend groups that will take them anyway if they’re good (Doing your builds/mathing it out to them yourself is better in their eyes anyway).

TL;DR
Stop reading forums and information about a topic unheard of in other MMO’s (speedrunning) that a small minority do, and the general player will never see, and then designing yourself around it and the words of a extreme minority, Build for yourself and you’ll go much farther in what you’re actually doing, if you’re doing something with friends or guildmates, just do it yourself.

Scott Lockharte.3412:

To answer OP’s question

Because the gw2 community is delusional, mixes up speedrunning and Progression, and thinks that speedrunning is what everyone does in this game, there’s a very small speedrunning community, and endgame community overall (Two dozen decent PvP teams, on NA specifically, and less than a hundred “speedrunners”, i can bet on that.)

Progression actually isn’t a thing yet, and no, fractals 100 scaling isn’t progression, get with friends and you can do it easily.

See, i’ve never seen a community that literally does “dungeon” content which is known to be a usual joke in every MMO, which was abandoned by the developers two years ago and think they’re cool for doing something that’s “dead” content a few minutes faster than the other minority group doing it, and then design all of their builds around it and then instruct the people who have no interest in it to do the same.

(Newsflash, berserker isn’t the best stat-set for HoT, if you’re at all considering HoT content hard, even before raids, Swap to cavalier, clerics, rabid, dire, etc, and you’ll do better in every way, there’s very little difference in damage numbers for a player with game-sense who knows how to build with a cavalier/other stat set, and you’re getting a lot more out of the deal, not that damage numbers actually even matter at this point, before or after raids.)

You can literally run any build and with a general game-sense you can get by anywhere, And i’m serious, literally anything, Roll with a all-corruptions build or a full nomads tank guardian and you can probably do anything in the game with a pug group, it’s nonsensical that people even look at speedrunning for dead content to choose which build they run with randoms or organized guild/friend groups that will take them anyway if they’re good (Doing your builds/mathing it out to them yourself is better in their eyes anyway).

TL;DR
Stop reading forums and information about a topic unheard of in other MMO’s (speedrunning) that a small minority do, and the general player will never see, and then designing yourself around it and the words of a extreme minority, Build for yourself and you’ll go much farther in what you’re actually doing, if you’re doing something with friends or guildmates, just do it yourself.

Only thing I can really agree with is that people should look at their skillsets on their own since it helps adapting for each encounter, which is important.

Also yes, you can run anything and probably clear. You can also use a book instead of a hammer to get a nail into the wall, but it’s horrible ineffective in comparison, so why do it?

For pretty much the rest of the post, see attached image below.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

Cogbyrn.7283:

And it isn’t fake math. It’s real math. It’s the responsibility of the players/community to analyze and understand it properly. Running a propaganda campaign against it is no better than running a propaganda campaign for it.

This is ridiculous. If something is given to be misleading or wrong, then it is actually a lot better to campaign against it than for it.

If you’ve spent any time with people, you’ll know that applied math is wizardry to the layman. The average person is in a mindset such that they don’t realize they can apply middle school math to real life problems. They’ve gotten into the habit of letting “smarter people” handle it for them. So of course they are going to take anything mathematical at face value as cannon.

The DPS calcs should come with a disclaimer that says “unless you are in this exact set of circumstances and achieve perfect play against an enemy that doesn’t fight back, you won’t be getting these numbers”. This is something you have to tell people.

I’m arguing that the math isn’t designed to be misleading. The purpose isn’t to mislead. It’s to inform. The nature of the information is the question.

I know that people take what other people say as fact without questioning it, especially if it is a topic they don’t like/don’t care about/feel “dumb” in. But that very much feels like a “you can’t blame people, they’re just ignorant” argument, and I really, really don’t like that mentality. I’m very big in personal accountability, so if a bunch of people are using numbers wrong because they don’t understand MMOs, it’s their fault. If a snake oil salesman sells you a false product, it’s your fault for buying it. Sure, he might be a jerk for trying to swindle people for gain, but you and everyone buying from him are enabling him.

A disclaimer would be nice, sure. But I bet you it would just get lost in the shuffle anyway, and people would still use theorycrafted numbers as The Word. People want to be part of the “in” crowd, and if that means taking numbers as law just to put other people down, that’s what they’ll do. MMOers in particular love to tell others how to play, and it has always irritated me, since very few of them actually understand why they are saying what they’re saying.

Also, I’m sure you know this, but the idea behind relative comparisons of numbers is that, given an equal situation in a boss fight where all classes have to dodge/lose up-time at an equal amount, the DPS will scale equally and the positioning of the classes will remain fairly consistent. Of course, that can easily be called into question given the nature of the damage rotations and the mechanics of each boss, but it isn’t completely off base as a rough sketch. So why go hard against it?

Anyway, I don’t like simply trying to say “believe my numbers” or “don’t believe their numbers”. Any campaigning is lame, in my opinion, and I don’t care to villainize either side. The math has its place. So does individual thought. I personally couldn’t possibly care less about speedrunning, but I still like to know theoretical numbers to inform on rotation potential to enhance my gameplay.

Its on the person for not using numbers in the correct context. Don’t blame the numbers or lack of easily ignored disclaimer. Completely agree with Cogbyrn on this. Especially since I have included disclaimers before and people have still quoted and ignored the context.

Without fully optimised calculations I wouldn’t be able to tell you skill priority orders or what utilities are better/worse than minions for damage.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Also, I’m sure you know this, but the idea behind relative comparisons of numbers is that, given an equal situation in a boss fight where all classes have to dodge/lose up-time at an equal amount, the DPS will scale equally and the positioning of the classes will remain fairly consistent. Of course, that can easily be called into question given the nature of the damage rotations and the mechanics of each boss, but it isn’t completely off base as a rough sketch. So why go hard against it?

The reason why you could go hard against these kind of numbers as a comparitive basis, is because they could be (not are) compleltely off base. The mechanics of a boss can be made so that they make builds from nigh uselless to very desirable. Yes in some case they can be comparable but in some others they are simply not. The boss that teleports all over the place and reflects/negates all projectiles will make a staff ele’s dps plummit while a scepter necro might come out better.

Tim.6450:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Also, I’m sure you know this, but the idea behind relative comparisons of numbers is that, given an equal situation in a boss fight where all classes have to dodge/lose up-time at an equal amount, the DPS will scale equally and the positioning of the classes will remain fairly consistent. Of course, that can easily be called into question given the nature of the damage rotations and the mechanics of each boss, but it isn’t completely off base as a rough sketch. So why go hard against it?

The reason why you could go hard against these kind of numbers as a comparitive basis, is because they could be (not are) compleltely off base. The mechanics of a boss can be made so that they make builds from nigh uselless to very desirable. Yes in some case they can be comparable but in some others they are simply not. The boss that teleports all over the place and reflects/negates all projectiles will make a staff ele’s dps plummit while a scepter necro might come out better.

The numbers are just a starting point anyway. If a boss like that exists, the player needs to take responsibility for thinking through what to do next. If projectiles are all negated in a boss, what is your class’s next best alternative? What build/rotation makes sense on a particular boss given its mechanics?

Understanding the theoreticals behind various builds and knowing how to optimize each build for a given scenario will only make you a better player.

And if there’s a single boss that happens to negate a certain type of damage, does it completely nullify the benefit of running numbers? Because that one boss exists? That’s a reason to say “these numbers shouldn’t be used anywhere ever”? I don’t think so.

Again, I’m just for personal accountability. If you don’t know how to apply the numbers, don’t judge others. If you do know how to apply the numbers, take your gameplay to new heights, and you’ll also understand that they aren’t a mechanism for judging others.

The game needs damage meters, too.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Also yes, you can run anything and probably clear. You can also use a book instead of a hammer to get a nail into the wall, but it’s horrible ineffective in comparison, so why do it?

If GW2 is as fun to you as hammering a nail into a wall, why play it? Or why not go hammer nails?

bravehoptoad.5246:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Also yes, you can run anything and probably clear. You can also use a book instead of a hammer to get a nail into the wall, but it’s horrible ineffective in comparison, so why do it?

If GW2 is as fun to you as hammering a nail into a wall, why play it? Or why not go hammer nails?

I’m not exactly sure what you want to say with that statement.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

bravehoptoad.5246:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Also yes, you can run anything and probably clear. You can also use a book instead of a hammer to get a nail into the wall, but it’s horrible ineffective in comparison, so why do it?

If GW2 is as fun to you as hammering a nail into a wall, why play it? Or why not go hammer nails?

I’m not exactly sure what you want to say with that statement.

It’s a suggestion that your metaphor is inapt, that hammering nails and playing GW2 are somewhat different activities.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Tim.6450:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Also, I’m sure you know this, but the idea behind relative comparisons of numbers is that, given an equal situation in a boss fight where all classes have to dodge/lose up-time at an equal amount, the DPS will scale equally and the positioning of the classes will remain fairly consistent. Of course, that can easily be called into question given the nature of the damage rotations and the mechanics of each boss, but it isn’t completely off base as a rough sketch. So why go hard against it?

The reason why you could go hard against these kind of numbers as a comparitive basis, is because they could be (not are) compleltely off base. The mechanics of a boss can be made so that they make builds from nigh uselless to very desirable. Yes in some case they can be comparable but in some others they are simply not. The boss that teleports all over the place and reflects/negates all projectiles will make a staff ele’s dps plummit while a scepter necro might come out better.

The numbers are just a starting point anyway. If a boss like that exists, the player needs to take responsibility for thinking through what to do next. If projectiles are all negated in a boss, what is your class’s next best alternative? What build/rotation makes sense on a particular boss given its mechanics?

Understanding the theoreticals behind various builds and knowing how to optimize each build for a given scenario will only make you a better player.

And if there’s a single boss that happens to negate a certain type of damage, does it completely nullify the benefit of running numbers? Because that one boss exists? That’s a reason to say “these numbers shouldn’t be used anywhere ever”? I don’t think so.

Again, I’m just for personal accountability. If you don’t know how to apply the numbers, don’t judge others. If you do know how to apply the numbers, take your gameplay to new heights, and you’ll also understand that they aren’t a mechanism for judging others.

The game needs damage meters, too.

This game does need damage meters. I reckon people would be shocked at the results and how far off the spreadsheets were.

Maxzero.4032:

This game does need damage meters. I reckon people would be shocked at the results and how far off the spreadsheets were.

I agree. It’s funny how ludicrous it is there are some people who think their build does anywhere NEAR 20,000 damage per second. It literally doesn’t make any logical sense.

bravehoptoad.5246:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

bravehoptoad.5246:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Also yes, you can run anything and probably clear. You can also use a book instead of a hammer to get a nail into the wall, but it’s horrible ineffective in comparison, so why do it?

If GW2 is as fun to you as hammering a nail into a wall, why play it? Or why not go hammer nails?

I’m not exactly sure what you want to say with that statement.

It’s a suggestion that your metaphor is inapt, that hammering nails and playing GW2 are somewhat different activities.

I’m quite aware that they’re different things. However from an efficiency standpoint, it works. If you run Nomads gear (for example), you’re basically doing what I described – Trying to get the nail into the wall in an awfully inefficient way and there’s no reason to do it when you have the proper tools right there. My metaphor might be bad, but the point behind it still stands.
Sure, fun is also a factor and even though I can’t understand how someone here would have fun in overly defensive gear so that you fall asleep, that’s probably a thing for some people I guess. Doesn’t make them of any more use to the group though.

playing nerco for 3 year from the most OP era to the current most balance state we are in. I would say Nerco for a starter its easy to pick up but extremely tough to be good at it. a few mistake. all new player make

1.“I WANT TO DEAL A LOT OF DAMAGE” so they go spite, reaper and soulreaper.
This build is extremely tough for new player the reason is because its extremely
glassy you will get instantly burst down in group fight

2. Map awareness is 1 of the most important for nerco reason is because for nerco
there’s no way you can run away after you had been spot lack of disengage ability.
go

3. I want to win all 1v1 match up base nero or reaper we are decently good in 1v1 but
we have quite a few hardcounter so avoid 1v1 engage in group fight
to area when there is a group fight going on nerco/reaper shine in group fight

4. LICH FORM…i’m not saying lich form is not good but there’s 1 big issue once in lich form every mother kittener will attack you you will end up been burst down. I would suggest going plague form instead reason is because you wil be able to 1v2 or 3 for a short amount of time preventing time from capping pt while waiting for help.

i think its just because of blast finishers

blast meta is still a thing and probably will always be a thing and Necros neither bring Fire fields (the one true combo field) nor a lot of blasting potential.

or banners…. fukkin banners…!

Fire fields arent really “the one true combo field”. Smoke, lightning, fire and water are all equal in terms of meta usage. Well water not so much in old content.

ha

this is the same guy who didn’t know engineer could solo stack 25 might for a group and calls himself engineer main.

“-More violets i say… less violence…” I think we need more youtube video showing how to play necromancer in specific encounters. For example, Brazil did a couple of these not too long ago. I’m always surprised how many PUG necros don’t know what their class is capable of. It’s really ironic when you think about it, but what I learned from playing Warrior was how to swap weapons and utilities for every encounter.

Cheby Shev.4671:

I’m always surprised how many PUG necros don’t know what their class is capable of. It’s really ironic when you think about it, but what I learned from playing Warrior was how to swap weapons and utilities for every encounter.

The same is true for every other class as well though, not a Necromancer specific problem at all. I don’t know how often I had to explain to thieves how blast finishers in a smoke field work after they dropped the classic “SR on cd” line in chat

This topic is getting very messy. Everytime I refresh someone’s post gets deleted which makes remaining posts looks very .. interesting.

Maybe it would be better to close this topic than remove half of the comments? There is a lot of experienced and knowledgeable people spending energy attacking/defending each other instead of showing us all the good builds, tips and tricks.

Peace, people .. and keep up the good work!

Cheby Shev.4671:

“-More violets i say… less violence…” I think we need more youtube video showing how to play necromancer in specific encounters. For example, Brazil did a couple of these not too long ago. I’m always surprised how many PUG necros don’t know what their class is capable of. It’s really ironic when you think about it, but what I learned from playing Warrior was how to swap weapons and utilities for every encounter.

Brazil’s fractal vids for necro are pure gold indeed! OP, I defer to Nemesis’ explanations of balancing ranged and melee dps around the expected dps uptime, risk vs reward gameplay and practical versus theoretical expectations. This gets you to the root of this misconception.

In practical terms, the only reason to wait for another party member (and thus effectively finish slower) would be to when you’re attempting a – high risk – world record speedclearing run, because the dps that can theoretically be achieved by other classes appears to be slightly higher.
Edit: safe to say, no team played flawlessly ever (otherwise people should stop trying to improve on the speedclearing records), and there is some rng involved in these matters.

Cheby Shev.4671:

“-More violets i say… less violence…” I think we need more youtube video showing how to play necromancer in specific encounters. For example, Brazil did a couple of these not too long ago. I’m always surprised how many PUG necros don’t know what their class is capable of. It’s really ironic when you think about it, but what I learned from playing Warrior was how to swap weapons and utilities for every encounter.

Yes… what i’ve been saying since the beginning, 3 years ago… “there is no best damage build, only best… at…”

Some encounters require bursting builds, others require sustain DPS type builds because they have mechanics which severely cripple bursting potential…
All the math which shows this class does X damage, that class does Y damage is absolutely pointless and irrelevant because it never takes into consideration the actual encounters… and… it gives out values which can’t be achieved not even in the best case scenarios.

I’ve watched as things were getting worse and worse over the course of two years, an unknown % of the community believed you do X amount of damage with the so called “meta” builds… everywhere… and that necromancers and rangers are useless, despite what the developers were saying.

The worst thing i’ve seen was people using 6 icebows, which use to do 80.000 DPS as in 300.000 damage in 3.7 sec ONLY targets with a large hitbox, against legendary flame shaman… they were actually doing 2K DPS OVERALL (since icebow doesn’t work there), half of what condition builds pull just by auto-attacking… and that was considered to be a “speed run”.

Why ?… because “math-in-e-void”, same math which said necromancers are useless and a dozen of other flawed conclusions.

It’s mind-blowing when you think about it… thousands of players playing the game wrong, for almost 2 years.

If i wouldn’t have taken the “high ground” and crushed these delusional ideas in the beginning, we would have had NO “berserker meta”.

The math is relevant when you use it as a reference point to identify which rotation would maximize damage in a particular scenario with a particular build. All data requires analysis, and it’s up to the users of the data that is provided to utilize it properly.

That isn’t the math’s fault. The math is just the math. We shouldn’t abandon the math, which has a use, just because some people are looking for ways to be exclusionary.

Cogbyrn.7283:

The math is relevant when you use it as a reference point to identify which rotation would maximize damage in a particular scenario with a particular build. All data requires analysis, and it’s up to the users of the data that is provided to utilize it properly.

That isn’t the math’s fault. The math is just the math. We shouldn’t abandon the math, which has a use, just because some people are looking for ways to be exclusionary.

But the people who make the math don’t use it to determine DPS rotations, they first guess a damage rotation based on… aaaa no idea, it’s definitely not based on an encounter because the damage is done on a dummy golem…
THEN… they use that damage rotation + math to advertise “expected DPS” on builds in order to gain popularity.

If it was just to determine the damage rotation, without a hidden agenda for personal gain, there wouldn’t even be “damage spreadsheets”, at all.
… and let’s be honest here, no one calculates that much math to find out perfect damage rotations. That amount math calculations would take longer then making the entire build + the voice-over for the guide + editing for YouTube.

So in conclusion… yeah… it could work, like i said in the live podcast yesterday, but they are not doing that are they.

Math is fine as a reference point, Nemesis. The only problem is when you take it as gospel.

I doubt there was a “hidden agenda”, people just prefer easier conclusions. If spreadsheet DPS comes to the conclusion that X>Y, even though X is not achievable in real play, whereas Y is, then the masses WILL often flock to it and call Y terrible. There is no need for hidden agendas there, I’ve made the same experience in other games, too.

It usually changes after a few months to years.

and let’s be honest here, no one calculates that much math to find out perfect damage rotations.

Oh, people do. Excel Spreadsheets come easy to those of us that work with that stuff IRL. These calculations do take far less time than you think – I routinely compile far more complex formula in my daily work in less than an hour. Gw2 is relatively easy, math wise.

Nemesis.8593:

But the people who make the math don’t use it to determine DPS rotations, they first guess a damage rotation based on… aaaa no idea, it’s definitely not based on an encounter because the damage is done on a dummy golem…
THEN… they use that damage rotation + math to advertise “expected DPS” on builds in order to gain popularity.

If it was just to determine the damage rotation, without a hidden agenda for personal gain, there wouldn’t even be “damage spreadsheets”, at all.
… and let’s be honest here, no one calculates that much math to find out perfect damage rotations. That amount math calculations would take longer then making the entire build + the voice-over for the guide + editing for YouTube.

So in conclusion… yeah… it could work, like i said in the live podcast yesterday, but they are not doing that are they.

In conclusion, you legitimately have no idea about spreadsheet theorycrafting. You don’t know where the rotations come from, you don’t know that spreadsheets provide the foundation to apply formulas across a variety of information for more complex calculations to enable rotational comparisons, and you don’t know how much people actually enjoy the process of theorycrafting to the point where they’ll spend all the time in the world analyzing optimal everything (gear, rotation, etc.).

You aren’t wrong that people have used the data to decide that Necros are bad, when it most likely is a marginal difference at best unless you’re in a hardcore speedrunning community. You are probably correct in that some read the numbers and think that’s how much damage they are doing, when in fact they don’t even come close. And you’re correct in that context matters when evaluating optimal scenarios, as each boss is different.

However, I’ll never agree that the numbers are “irrelevant”, because they have their use. The game just needs a damage meter to actually collect real data programmatically.

Maunzi.3764:

Math is fine as a reference point, Nemesis. The only problem is when you take it as gospel.

I doubt there was a “hidden agenda”, people just prefer easier conclusions. If spreadsheet DPS comes to the conclusion that X>Y, even though X is not achievable in real play, whereas Y is, then the masses WILL often flock to it and call Y terrible. There is no need for hidden agendas there, I’ve made the same experience in other games, too.

It usually changes after a few months to years.

and let’s be honest here, no one calculates that much math to find out perfect damage rotations.

Oh, people do. Excel Spreadsheets come easy to those of us that work with that stuff IRL. These calculations do take far less time than you think – I routinely compile far more complex formula in my daily work in less than an hour. Gw2 is relatively easy, math wise.

Have you ever formulated a 30 sec DPS rotation based on math… not the other way around, figure out the rotation then use math to calculate it’s damage ?

Maybe i’m doing something wrong but it is time consuming…

Regardless… If the math is used for figuring out the DPS rotation… why do they calculate that DPS’s rotation damage ?… and why do they advertise that damage ?

It serves no real purpose other then self advertising, and only gets people confused…
Shouldn’t people who are smart enough to calculate everything, smart enough to teach others… already know these things ?

Also… if they knew that the spreadsheet DPS reached the conclusion that X > Y, even though X is not achievable in real play, where as Y is… why didn’t they specify this ?…

Why did they advertised everywhere the “berserker meta” which discriminates entire classes ?
It’s either they knew but did it anyway, or they never knew it in the first place… because they actually believe their own math, they actually believe they have more or less the same DPS everywhere regardless of armor or the mechanics…

… and these people… teach others… and test the raids for ArenaNet.

To answer OP once again, this… my friend… is why everyone thinks necromancers are bad. Because some people who have no idea what’s going on, were teaching others… for a really long time…

@Nemesis: Would you be so kind and not drag this personal issue you have with certain members of the community into every single discussion you participate in? It gets very disruptive.

@echoeagle (if you are still reading this thread lol): I think the main reason why you are experiencing these issues is that people in this game generally dislike AI builds (if this is justified or not is a different discussion).
Based on my personal experience with PuGs I don’t think it has much to do with you playing Necromancer. Pretty much all I did PvE-wise prior to HoT for ~5 months or so was PuGing fractal dailies and I can’t remember are single instance of someone complaining about the fact that I play Necromancer.
I’m 99% sure, that if you’d play a Spirit Weapon Guardian or a Turret Engineer, that those exact same people would be equally unhappy with you playing one of those builds as they were with you playing MM Necro.

TL;DR: People tend to dislike AI builds in general.