Guild Wars 2

Cogbyrn.7283:

Nemesis.8593:

But the people who make the math don’t use it to determine DPS rotations, they first guess a damage rotation based on… aaaa no idea, it’s definitely not based on an encounter because the damage is done on a dummy golem…
THEN… they use that damage rotation + math to advertise “expected DPS” on builds in order to gain popularity.

If it was just to determine the damage rotation, without a hidden agenda for personal gain, there wouldn’t even be “damage spreadsheets”, at all.
… and let’s be honest here, no one calculates that much math to find out perfect damage rotations. That amount math calculations would take longer then making the entire build + the voice-over for the guide + editing for YouTube.

So in conclusion… yeah… it could work, like i said in the live podcast yesterday, but they are not doing that are they.

In conclusion, you legitimately have no idea about spreadsheet theorycrafting. You don’t know where the rotations come from, you don’t know that spreadsheets provide the foundation to apply formulas across a variety of information for more complex calculations to enable rotational comparisons, and you don’t know how much people actually enjoy the process of theorycrafting to the point where they’ll spend all the time in the world analyzing optimal everything (gear, rotation, etc.).

You aren’t wrong that people have used the data to decide that Necros are bad, when it most likely is a marginal difference at best unless you’re in a hardcore speedrunning community. You are probably correct in that some read the numbers and think that’s how much damage they are doing, when in fact they don’t even come close. And you’re correct in that context matters when evaluating optimal scenarios, as each boss is different.

However, I’ll never agree that the numbers are “irrelevant”, because they have their use. The game just needs a damage meter to actually collect real data programmatically.

Well my friend, you were very against me until recently… but i see you are willing to see reason, so i will answer you.

Currently gathering footage for my guides since i have decided to create a special segment dedicated to REAL DPS comparisons between builds and classes in various encounters.

So far my upcoming glass cannon has done 14K DPS on Bloomhunger over 27 sec… same build, same rotation, same guy… just 10K DPS on Old Tom… going for ascalonian and flame shaman soon as well.

Brazil / Narc during world record had 9K DPS on Bloomhunger over 27 / 17 sec…
Same build, same comp, same guy, same DPS rotation… Brazil’s DPS in Ascalonian went down to 5K, at legendary champion shaman went down to 2K.

… and this is the turning point where condition builds > power builds, not because the math shows it, but because the mechanics dictate it.

NOW… does the math resemble anything like this ? AT ALL…

All i have seen is 15 to 25K DPS spreadsheets… and we already know that the sinister engineer build advertised at 20K DPS, does just 9K DPS on mossman.

So… tell me my friend… what am i suppose to use those spreadsheets for, when their numbers are unachievable even in the best case scenario: Bloomhunger world records, and in reality the REAL DPS values change dramatically based on the encounter.

PS: Keep it friendly if you want me to continue this discussion, i will not have any of that “you don’t know how spreadsheets work”… especially since i’ve spoken with Brazil many times, and in the beginning when they first started advertising spreadsheets… all the math was done by Dekeeyz, and she never shared her calculations with them… she just gave them the final values…

So they actually had no idea what those values are, or how Dekeeyz got them… talking about “you don’t know how spreadsheets work” when a lot of the people who keep putting up spreadsheets all over the place don’t even know what they are suppose to represent… they don’t even know what kind of damage rotation is supposedly going to give them those values.

This is ridiculous…

Since my last post got swallowed by the page switchover, @Nemesis, can you PLS stop hijacking unrelated threads with your personal issues? It gets really, really disruptive.

Why don’t you start your own thread and try to keep it civil this time, so that it doesn’t get closed/removed again?

The spreadsheets give out so high values since they don’t take the encounter (directly) into account – and that’s their advantage.
Since all builds are assumed to be played with perfection, environmental effects do not influence the analysis of any given build, allowing them to be displayed under equal conditions. That also excludes individual player-skill levels.

dps-Spreadsheets assume a boss-armor value of 2.6k / a perfect & continuous rotation / buffs from warri banners of strength & discipline / 100% fury uptime / 25vuln on the boss / 25 might on the player / no boons on the boss.

And since all builds are treated under the same, perfect conditions, the dmg-calculations are purely objective & display the maximum achievable potential for any given build on any given class.

Yes, individual boss-mechanics favor condi dmg highly over power dmg, but since the gw2 PvE content is so laughable easy, it is not reasonable to even start to care about these individual mechanics. On the opposite, there are bosses in the game that have extreme condi-duration reduction on them, causing you to run your head in with condi builds just as often as with purely power builds.

And while hybrid would be a nice all-rounder (hence engi is such a popular class for solo runs), people usually care more about a good bang for their buck, hence go for peak-performance comps on the power-side of builds.

Everybody with half a brain knows that dodging reduces you dps uptime, and that the values advertised in the builds are not always (if ever) achievable, but these builds guarantee that your actual dps is limited by nothing but your personal skill-cap.

If you find builds that you personally perform better on, congratulation, you don’t need the meta anymore. It is really just there as orientation for people who do not engineer their own, individualized setups.

Nemesis.8593:

… and this is the turning point where condition builds > power builds, not because the math shows it, but because the mechanics dictate it.

NOW… does the math resemble anything like this ? AT ALL…

Yes, it does.
Conditions have a formula that can be used to calculate their dps per stack, so you just go ahead and calculate how high & long they tick on your target, assuming that your target does not have any condi-duration-reduction on it.
Just as power-dmg, conditions get calculated in a normalized environment as well. This includes effects from traits for +duration, 25vuln, and 25 might, along with buff-food, if picked for the build.
Ofc the duration is capped at +100% max in the spreadsheets.

You can see that people add their condi-dps always as well, to the overall dps of their builds, since even zerker stats can produce a significant byproduct of condi-dps, especially if we talk engineer.

Its actually not that time consuming once you have all the skill data calculated and the general formula’s. You literally just plug the numbers in and tally it up (i often link the formula’s so i can change armour and stat values on the fly so the whole spreadsheet refreshes with new values). The most time consuming and boring part for me is actually recording the rotation and adding up the number of each skill/proc in the rotation. Which is still much less work than adding up all the exact numbers in the combat log on a video.

Which, i might add, i dont really fancy so the recording i made on sunday is sitting there unwatched until the weekend. At this point i may scrap the idea for now just so i can get my guide updated with the important stuff. I already have a good idea of what skills are high priority in a rotation. Even if i dont have a rotation perfected and calculated. And thats all thanks to spreadsheet math followed by brief ingame checks on cast/aftercast. :>

So has there been any video evidence of values coming close to those that the spreadsheets show for “perfect” dps? I remember reading that Rev can reach 25k dps, Condi engineer 20k, dragon hunter high teens (I think i saw 18k or something) and elementalists (no icebow) still high as well. Has this ever been proven on Bloom or any other boss in the game? Has anyone even gotten close?

If not then I don’t really understand what the point of the spreadsheets are. In other mmo’s I play(ed) dps meters were present so everyone had a very real idea of what numbers to expect. The optimal rotation for each class was found out, and through application I was able to get at least somewhat close to those ideal numbers. If no one can actually prove say a rev can do even 20k dps sustain on a immobile low-mid armor boss then I have to side with Nemesis on this one. Even then, this game seems to have a HUGE variance when it comes to condition vs power due to armor, and dps uptime in general compared to wow and ff14 (for example).

In FF14 when I raid, once I get on a boss I do my optimal opening burst and then sustain a pretty high dps for the majority of the fight. Even when mechanics are rough for melee I can generally keep my rotation up. Thing is, my rotation / gear almost never changes from fight to fight so my numbers are almost always going to stay consistent even if mechanics have me disengage from the boss for a brief period of time. In this game the damage values are all over the place. Someone can be doing crazy amounts of damage on bloom and suddenly they move on to another boss and they are barely dealing anything at all. So while I can see the point of having a spreadsheet value for theorycrafting max dps, I just feel it completely falls flat in this game for the most part.

Spreadsheets are there to give a comparison between classes and to work out priority skills for rotations. You can extrapolate and use the data to determine which classes are best at certain situations. You can also say that if dps is halved on X encounter then it would also be halved on other classes for the same encounter. This means an optimal dps comparison is still useful. Obviously you need to consider other variables such as staff ele being able to be further away to still deal max dps so their dps might only be reduced by 40% instead of 50%. This is applied mathematics. Its not something you can really explain to others. Its something you need to work out for yourself. As long as you understand the context, then the data is useful even if it comes in an unrealistic form.

GW2 is a more active combat system than most mmo’s which is why even with optimal rotations you cant necessarily ever get close to theory. Even your optimal real rotation might be vastly different on the same encounter at two different times. Simply because of the variables caused by gw2 combat.

Altoid.9104:

If not then I don’t really understand what the point of the spreadsheets are.

I don’t care enough about the people involved in coming up with the actual youtube-footage to deny or testify that anyone ever came close to the estimated performance. Please investigate footage of world record runs on your own for that.

However, the process to calculate dps is clearly documented on the wiki (and on meta-battle as well?), so everyone can run the numbers, which I personally did occasionally as well. Therefore I can testify that nobody will ever be able to reach the estimated maximum in reality, due to the weapon-strength value in the dmg-calculation of power-skills.
Weapons in Gw2 have a dmg-value that reaches from x<->y, so the formulas include a RNG component, therefore will never match your actual dps, regardless how perfect you execute it.

Why do we still prefer spreadsheet calculations above dps-meters in Gw2?
Because A-net refuses to support dps meter, and there are cases known where people got accidentally flagged for account-suspension or even -closure due to Gw2 recognizing that you run the client with 3rd party software. This is prohibited by the TOS of Gw2.
And since nemesis’ manual method of calculating dps is not only flawed (due to him building in a logical flaw), but also extremely tedious and time-consuming (hence he updates so slowly), people rather use the comfortable process of setting up excel-documents, which can be adjusted for various builds rather quickly, once the dmg formulas for all the skills are included.

And since these calculations are done within a standardized environment, commonly used by everybody for calculating their builds, comparisons between them can be drawn quickly and efficiently.
Yes, having dps-meters ingame would greatly improve this process to let it match reality closer, but luckily actual dps-measurement only starts to matter when you want to improve your own skills (or show them off) on a given build after you’ve engineered it. Similar theoretical models are used in PvE elite guilds in WoW in conjunction to actual dps meters, as well.
The reason A-net refuses to support dps-meters for Gw2 is because they fear the community becoming toxic due to upcoming elitism. No comment from me on that.

Also, the reason nemesis has to fight the windmills constantly is because he seems to have some personal issues with some people involved in the meta-crafting process (someone made money with a build from him by selling it to a website over 2 years ago, or something along those lines, ask nemesis for details) – and 2nd – because he skews his own numbers, by calculating the dps of footage of opposing builds right from the beginning of their might-stacking-phase.
So to compare that with WoW, when a pali/priest/whatever starts to buff a guy before an encounter, nemesis starts the clock. This is what the discussion with him is about, nothing else, regardless what he might try to exaggerate of it.
Just click on his name & browse his posts-history, I guess that would be the best way of understanding what’s up with him, since his posts speak for themselves.

Arantheal.7396:

And since all builds are treated under the same, perfect conditions, the dmg-calculations are purely objective & display the maximum achievable potential for any given build on any given class.

Doesn’t “perfect conditions” mean that they are pretty much showing maximum damage potential on “a target dummy”? I guess that is why there are people not happy about interpretations of value calculated in that spreadsheets.

I know you cannot create perfect spreadsheets, because that would mean recreating most of GW2’s engine. I am just trying to emphasize that the problem is how these values are often interpreted.

Arantheal.7396:

Everybody with half a brain knows that dodging reduces you dps uptime, and that the values advertised in the builds are not always (if ever) achievable, but these builds guarantee that your actual dps is limited by nothing but your personal skill-cap.

Actual DPS even with those builds are still limited by the encounter and not only by your skill-cap. Correct me if I am wrong, but you implied above that running condition builds in encounters where there is extreme condition duration would be a bad idea.

Same goes with power builds in encounter where there is immunity against direct damage, super-high toughness. Bosses teleporting around would make ranged damage preferable, etc.

Those high level fractal encounters are good for (only) one thing – they are demonstrating situations where condition damage is great and that meta is really changing based on the type of encounters.

That is the point that some people are making. That the spreadsheet values are good in “generic” encounters , a.k.a tank&spank.

spoj.9672:

You can extrapolate and use the data to determine which classes are best at certain situations.

Yes, certain situations = certain types of encounters.

Experience people know that and they wouldn’t bring “a knife into a gun fight”, but there are many not-so-experienced ones not thinking this through that well.

Hopefully raid encounters will demonstrate that recommended builds can vary from encounter to encouter and even within a single encounter based on the role.

spoj.9672:

GW2 is a more active combat system than most mmo’s which is why even with optimal rotations you cant necessarily ever get close to theory. Even your optimal real rotation might be vastly different on the same encounter at two different times. Simply because of the variables caused by gw2 combat.

If I understood correctly you are implying here what Nemesis is saying – reality can get very different from theory because of how GW2 combat is designed. I kinda feel you two are pretty much saying very similar things at least in this area and this topic, but there is just too much drama from the past fogging it.

I would be happier if there was no bad blood, but I guess it brings more viewers to watch videos …

Hi everybody, I’ve been following these posts for quite a while now and there are some things that I don’t really understand.

First of all I would like to know what this context is we should use to look at the spreadsheets and the berzeker meta. Apparently it is the key to explain why the spreadsheets still explain a real DPS value of the builds. If we’d get a clear explanation of the context it could help people like me understand why both Spoj and Nemesis are right.

Second, I don’t really understand why Spoj didn’t release the different DPS values he says he already calculated. It could prove Nemesis wrong that Spoj’s spreadsheets are fake math. Unless he didn’t really calculate it. (I’ll probably never know…)

Third, I don’t really understand why Spoj doesn’t want to try explain his applied mathematics. A lot of people that play MMO’s and care to check forums do have a basic understanding of math. For Spoj it should be fun if you ask me because he likes making guides anyway. Only that guide couldn’t just be copied. You have to really understand it.

Fourth, I do hope Nemesis does realise that he has a lot of people right in his hands now. If his next build isn’t near to perfect in the situation he says it is best at, there could be a lot of consequences.

I do not mean any of this as a threat in any way, shape or form. I’m just observing and trying to formulate a new way of looking at the problem. I love the work of Nemesis and Spoj. They both helped me understand the necromancer more.

I hope someone wants to reply on my post explaining me at least one of these things.

kubetz.3058:

-snip-

Yes, running condi builds against bosses with drastic condi-duration reduction (or even immunity) is as equally bad as running zerker gear against bosses with perma-protection / stealth phases / invulnerability or generally high toughness.

The thing is that it really doesn’t matter – so far. Gw2 were always too easy as that we were forced to adapt to every single dungeon in the game individually. This does not mean that people don’t do it on their own, but the purpose of any meta in any game is to reflect what is the best way to gear your character in order to be prepared for the games’ content.
And lets be honest, there is not a single boss in the game – so far – that makes your life on power builds horrible. They don’t even challenge you. If anything, you’d save a couple of seconds if you’d come with condi gear, but in the end it really doesn’t matter since you still can bruteforce everything, even the horribly long-lasting dmg-sponges of HoTW.
So the Gw2 meta has a easy environment to work with, and since zerker (lately sinister as well) was so far the best answe to all encounter, people keep running their glass-cannons.

I personally hope that changes with raids, but we’ll see.

Anyways, nemesis is simply wrong in his assessment that the meta was “lying to people” or whatever tinfoil content he engineered within his perception of it. And even tho there are no formal studies about the hero syndrome, wouldn’t surprise me if he falls into that category. I mean, he’s fighting the windmills for 2 years already, and his recent drama-drum play is definitively worrisome…
Meh, I’m not his therapist, nor know him personally.

That’s the thing, do the listed numbers even reflect the difference in each classes effectiveness as people seem to be claiming? Can you really point to a Rev and say his cap is higher than a Necromancer by (let’s say) 10k, so that means the Rev for the most part is going to heavily out dps a Necromancer. Or is it more that the Rev might at most deal 1-2k dps more over the duration of a fight? That is a HUGE difference and is one reason I don’t like spreadsheets having so much sway when dps meters don’t exist.

I just saw in another thread someone say that Necromancers condition damage is weak compared to other classes, but is that backed up by anything other than spreadsheets? Again, is the difference slight or is it a huge gap as implied by Rev sheet dps?

Devils Pride.6208:

Hi everybody, I’ve been following these posts for quite a while now and there are some things that I don’t really understand.

First of all I would like to know what this context is we should use to look at the spreadsheets and the berzeker meta. Apparently it is the key to explain why the spreadsheets still explain a real DPS value of the builds. If we’d get a clear explanation of the context it could help people like me understand why both Spoj and Nemesis are right.

Second, I don’t really understand why Spoj didn’t release the different DPS values he says he already calculated. It could prove Nemesis wrong that Spoj’s spreadsheets are fake math. Unless he didn’t really calculate it. (I’ll probably never know…)

Third, I don’t really understand why Spoj doesn’t want to try explain his applied mathematics. A lot of people that play MMO’s and care to check forums do have a basic understanding of math. For Spoj it should be fun if you ask me because he likes making guides anyway. Only that guide couldn’t just be copied. You have to really understand it.

Fourth, I do hope Nemesis does realise that he has a lot of people right in his hands now. If his next build isn’t near to perfect in the situation he says it is best at, there could be a lot of consequences.

I do not mean any of this as a threat in any way, shape or form. I’m just observing and trying to formulate a new way of looking at the problem. I love the work of Nemesis and Spoj. They both helped me understand the necromancer more.

I hope someone wants to reply on my post explaining me at least one of these things.

I’m happy to help

First of, I’m not entirely sure what you mean by context. If you were refering to the basic assumptions behind the set values, then they basically just imply that, generally speaking, you’re always on full health, buffed by your group to a maximum, and the boss being debuffed by a maximum…

2nd, these are the formulas used for dmg calculations in all spreadsheets.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage
You can find the skill-specific coefficient on the associated wiki page of the skill you want to calculate, while weapon-stats for various tiers can be found on the wiki (or ingame) as well. The targets armor is always assumed to be 2600 (most commonly found armor value, also shared by heavy training golems in the PvP lobby). Everything beyond that is class/build specific.

3rd, no idea, I’m not him^^

4th, part of why he does that. He enjoys being in the middle of the drama, I guess.

Altoid.9104:

That’s the thing, do the listed numbers even reflect the difference in each classes effectiveness as people seem to be claiming? Can you really point to a Rev and say his cap is higher than a Necromancer by (let’s say) 10k, so that means the Rev for the most part is going to heavily out dps a Necromancer. Or is it more that the Rev might at most deal 1-2k dps more over the duration of a fight? That is a HUGE difference and is one reason I don’t like spreadsheets having so much sway when dps meters don’t exist.

I just saw in another thread someone say that Necromancers condition damage is weak compared to other classes, but is that backed up by anything other than spreadsheets? Again, is the difference slight or is it a huge gap as implied by Rev sheet dps?

Guess why we asked A-net for the implementation of dps meters so often…
The fact that spreadsheets are the best dps-calculation method we have so far, does not imply that alternative methods wouldn’t be greatly appreciated to complete each other…

Conspiracy theory!

I don’t agree with that, I think the best (or at least most accurate) method is taking a video and manually calculating dps the hard way. Spreadsheets have their place, but I think that place gets completely lost without a meter to keep them grounded.

Arantheal.7396:

Devils Pride.6208:

Hi everybody, I’ve been following these posts for quite a while now and there are some things that I don’t really understand.

First of all I would like to know what this context is we should use to look at the spreadsheets and the berzeker meta. Apparently it is the key to explain why the spreadsheets still explain a real DPS value of the builds. If we’d get a clear explanation of the context it could help people like me understand why both Spoj and Nemesis are right.

Second, I don’t really understand why Spoj didn’t release the different DPS values he says he already calculated. It could prove Nemesis wrong that Spoj’s spreadsheets are fake math. Unless he didn’t really calculate it. (I’ll probably never know…)

Third, I don’t really understand why Spoj doesn’t want to try explain his applied mathematics. A lot of people that play MMO’s and care to check forums do have a basic understanding of math. For Spoj it should be fun if you ask me because he likes making guides anyway. Only that guide couldn’t just be copied. You have to really understand it.

Fourth, I do hope Nemesis does realise that he has a lot of people right in his hands now. If his next build isn’t near to perfect in the situation he says it is best at, there could be a lot of consequences.

I hope someone wants to reply on my post explaining me at least one of these things.

I’m happy to help

First of, I’m not entirely sure what you mean by context. If you were refering to the basic assumptions behind the set values, then they basically just imply that, generally speaking, you’re always on full health, buffed by your group to a maximum, and the boss being debuffed by a maximum…

2nd, these are the formulas used for dmg calculations in all spreadsheets.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage
You can find the skill-specific coefficient on the associated wiki page of the skill you want to calculate, while weapon-stats for various tiers can be found on the wiki (or ingame) as well. The targets armor is always assumed to be 2600 (most commonly found armor value, also shared by heavy training golems in the PvP lobby). Everything beyond that is class/build specific.

3rd, no idea, I’m not him^^

4th, part of why he does that. He enjoys being in the middle of the drama, I guess. Also, please edit your post and reformulate it. It sounds like a threat, and can cause you to get infractions

Thanks for your answer.

With the context I was reffering to Spoj and some other people saying that their damage calculations should be viewed using said context. The context, from what I understand, was the context everyone was using at the time of the Berserker meta.

I hope more people can explain there view on my questions

Altoid.9104:

I don’t agree with that, I think the best (or at least most accurate) method is taking a video and manually calculating dps the hard way. Spreadsheets have their place, but I think that place gets completely lost without a meter to keep them grounded.

Both calculations are important. But they should always both be used and explained with every build. There has to be a comparison and the possibility for players to look at all of the calculations.

At least that is what I think.

Altoid.9104:

I don’t agree with that, I think the best (or at least most accurate) method is taking a video and manually calculating dps the hard way. Spreadsheets have their place, but I think that place gets completely lost without a meter to keep them grounded.

Welp, that gives you your actual dps, but keep in mind that it is heavily influenced by
- your personal skill-level – the ability to execute the rotations perfectly to all times (or not)
- your groups skill level – the ability to keep you buffed and on +90% health to all time, while keeping the boss debuffed
- RNG – the amount of times you’re forced to dodge due to Gw2’s random agro system choosing you as its victim
- More RNG – the engine throwing dices for your current weapon strength modifier

While manually collecting data on your actual dps gives you 100% real numbers, they will heavily differ from person to person using the same build, ending up in a foggy mess of what has good synergy or not…

Yes, you are right about actual dps being needed to normalize spreadsheet calculations by actual testing, but completely disregarding theoretical build-analyzation, you strip yourself off the ability to make definite statements about the synergy of group-comps, and their performance when switched out with different builds.

If you ask me, both methods are needed.
…Just don’t make the same mistake as nemesis and start the clock in the buff-phase^^

Arantheal.7396:

Altoid.9104:

I don’t agree with that, I think the best (or at least most accurate) method is taking a video and manually calculating dps the hard way. Spreadsheets have their place, but I think that place gets completely lost without a meter to keep them grounded.

Welp, that gives you your actual dps, but keep in mind that it is heavily influenced by
- your personal skill-level – the ability to execute the rotations perfectly to all times (or not)
- your groups skill level – the ability to keep you buffed and on +90% health to all time, while keeping the boss debuffed
- RNG – the amount of times you’re forced to dodge due to Gw2’s random agro system choosing you as its victim
- More RNG – the engine throwing dices for your current weapon strength modifier

While manually collecting data on your actual dps gives you 100% real numbers, they will heavily differ from person to person using the same build, ending up in a foggy mess of what has good synergy or not…

Yes, you are right about actual dps being needed to normalize spreadsheet calculations by actual testing, but completely disregarding theoretical build-analyzation, you strip yourself off the ability to make definite statements about the synergy of group-comps, and their performance when switched out with different builds.

If you ask me, both methods are needed.
…Just don’t make the same mistake as nemesis and start the clock in the buff-phase^^

You have seen my videos with your own eyes and you know i do not start the clock at prebuffing… in addition to that I have told you 5 times already that i do not start the clock when buffing starts… i only did it once to show what kind of a DPS loss prebuffing actually is.

You also saw the real DPS values of the world records, which you now claim no one has done… you also saw the real DPS values of icebow and how it carried people at bosses with a large enough hitbox.

I have told you all of these a couple of times already every time you try to contradict me, besides the fact you have seen these facts with your own eyes…
You also have no records, no guides no nothing… you probably never even did any math on your own.

All you do is contradict me with 100% false claims and provide others with misleading information… straight up teaching them bad things with 0 proof to back up anything you claim.

Why isn’t this against regulations ?…

“Providing misleading information nonstop” should be against the rules on this forum.

Here’s a question for you since you are so “happy to help”.

What’s the damage rotation behind the 25K DPS revenant ?
(I bet you are going to look it up right now and make a comeback…)

You have absolutely no idea what’s in those spreadsheets or how they reached those numbers or why… but you continue to make assumption after assumption after assumption…

I think i’m getting a headache again, there’s simply too many “experts” who don’t even have the slightest idea what damage rotation were used in the spreadsheets but they continue to make claims… X is better then Y, this is better then that… you should do this and that…

Altoid.9104:

I don’t agree with that, I think the best (or at least most accurate) method is taking a video and manually calculating dps the hard way. Spreadsheets have their place, but I think that place gets completely lost without a meter to keep them grounded.

Manually calculating DPS would indeed be the most accurate way to calculate realistic DPS values, but only if, and I mean ONLY IF the sample size is sufficiently big enough to begin with – this means data collected from literally hundreds and hundreds of players.
With the calculations Nemesis did this is clearly not the case. He basically did different and unrelated “case studies” on DPS, which are not an accurate representation of average DPS values of a specific class/build. They might or might not give some indications from which you can draw tentative conclusions from, but that’s about it.

So, to do a proper empirical study on DPS values you would need to collect a kitten-ton of data. Also, this data would need to be collected under strictly monitored, well documented and predetermined parameters, such as 100% repeatable test scenarios. Without the appropriate tools provided by the developer this is simply not feasible and maybe also a liiittle bit too much to ask for when it comes to calculating DPS values in a freakin video game

So what is the next best option? Spreadsheets + common sense and extensive testing. That is perfectly OK and I’m pretty sure that the people making these spreadsheets are well aware of the fact that they are, well, just that. To use Nemesis’ terminology here, “math in a void” to work with because of the lack of better means to support theorycrafting.

Also, gj on derailing yet another topic because of “spreadsheets vs. real DPS”, but it is to late to go back now I guess. Poor OP =/

Skoigoth.9238:

Altoid.9104:

I don’t agree with that, I think the best (or at least most accurate) method is taking a video and manually calculating dps the hard way. Spreadsheets have their place, but I think that place gets completely lost without a meter to keep them grounded.

Manually calculating DPS would indeed be the most accurate way to calculate realistic DPS values, but only if, and I mean ONLY IF the sample size is sufficiently big enough to begin with – this means data collected from literally hundreds and hundreds of players.
With the calculations Nemesis did this is clearly not the case. He basically did different and unrelated “case studies” on DPS, which are not an accurate representation of average DPS values of a specific class/build. They might or might not give some indications from which you can draw tentative conclusions from, but that’s about it.

So, to do a proper empirical study on DPS values you would need to collect a kitten-ton of data. Also, this data would need to be collected under strictly monitored, well documented and predetermined parameters, such as 100% repeatable test scenarios. Without the appropriate tools provided by the developer this is simply not feasible and maybe also a liiittle bit too much to ask for when it comes to calculating DPS values in a freakin video game

So what is the next best option? Spreadsheets + common sense and extensive testing. That is perfectly OK and I’m pretty sure that the people making these spreadsheets are well aware of the fact that they are, well, just that. To use Nemesis’ terminology here, “math in a void” to work with because of the lack of better means to support theorycrafting.

Also, gj on derailing yet another topic because of “spreadsheets vs. real DPS”, but it is to late to go back now I guess. Poor OP =/

Derailing ?…

It’s 100% on point… spreadsheets are the reason why people think the necromancer is bad.
But… the spreadsheets don’t reflect reality, reality looks nothing like the spreadsheets because of the mechanics of encounters… so those spreadsheets can’t even be used for comparison reasons.

As i’ve proved in those videos… condition engineer was advertised at 20K… did 9K on mossman, got outDPSes by condition ranger which is “NOT META” because someone said so.
Necromancer was advertised at 14K DPS, i personally did 12K DPS on bloomhunger without having an icebow in party to speed up the kill so that i have a higher % of the fight under timewarp… wich 2 icebows in party my DPS went to 14K because the overall fight was shorter.

Nemesis: “math is fake because it gives achievable values”

Randome people: “no it doesn’t… it’s just that no one has ever seen it, no one has ever proved it and the people who made the math refuse to back it up with video footage”

“besides… math is only used for comparison purposes”

Nemesis: “On paper engineer > necro by a mile… in reality power necro > engineer on targets with light armor with one hand behind my back.”

Yeah… continue believing math, maybe discriminate all guardian players next, or who ever metabattle decide to leave out… i’m sure the thousands of < insert class here > are so going to have fun in GW2 being kicked all the time.

@Nemesis, nobody here is trying to discriminate anyone because of math besides you.

Maybe you should start preaching your gospel to the people it actually should be directed at. I.e. rude and uninformed people talking out of their butts before kicking Necros out of their parties for no real reason. I don’t know about everyone else on this thread, buuut I do not fall into this category (I’d have to trashtalk and kick myself, right?).

Edit: Also, tyvm for ignoring 99% of what I tried to convey with my post, but instead repeating the same old stuff again. Very helpful =)

Spreadsheets are not why people think necro is bad. The reality of the classes previous lack of utility was the reason. Had nothing to do with dps and it had nothing to do with spreadsheets. You dont calculate utility on spreadsheets.

spoj.9672:

You dont calculate utility on spreadsheets.

Challenge accepted :^)

Coming soon, elitsm™ for everyone!

spoj.9672:

Spreadsheets are not why people think necro is bad. The reality of the classes previous lack of utility was the reason. Had nothing to do with dps and it had nothing to do with spreadsheets. You dont calculate utility on spreadsheets.

Maybe those players should rely less on teammates preventing them from dying and rely more on their own skill then there wouldn’t be this stupid persecution of classes. Honestly, I’ve played every class in the game quite a bit. I don’t find necromancers lacking at all.

The one to Rule.2593:

spoj.9672:

Spreadsheets are not why people think necro is bad. The reality of the classes previous lack of utility was the reason. Had nothing to do with dps and it had nothing to do with spreadsheets. You dont calculate utility on spreadsheets.

Maybe those players should rely less on teammates preventing them from dying and rely more on their own skill then there wouldn’t be this stupid persecution of classes. Honestly, I’ve played every class in the game quite a bit. I don’t find necromancers lacking at all.

“Prevent them from dying” what the kitten lmao
It’s not about people relying on others not to die, it’s about bringing useful tools to the party like fields, blasts, reflects/projectile destruction, unique buffs etc. so that the party can achieve higher efficiency and a smoother run.
That being said, yes, Necromancers got better over time but back then we didn’t have as much to bring.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

The one to Rule.2593:

spoj.9672:

Spreadsheets are not why people think necro is bad. The reality of the classes previous lack of utility was the reason. Had nothing to do with dps and it had nothing to do with spreadsheets. You dont calculate utility on spreadsheets.

Maybe those players should rely less on teammates preventing them from dying and rely more on their own skill then there wouldn’t be this stupid persecution of classes. Honestly, I’ve played every class in the game quite a bit. I don’t find necromancers lacking at all.

“Prevent them from dying” what the kitten lmao
It’s not about people relying on others not to die, it’s about bringing useful tools to the party like fields, blasts, reflects/projectile destruction, unique buffs etc. so that the party can achieve higher efficiency and a smoother run.
That being said, yes, Necromancers got better over time but back then we didn’t have as much to bring.

So what? rely on yourself and not everyone else. Rely on what YOU can bring to a team not what everyone else can. Necro does bring things to the table so I’m not really sure where all this is coming from. We have projectile destruction, party wide life siphon Great dps and guess what? we don’t have to rely on ele’s or ps warriors for our own might generation. Aoe blinds for team support in bosses where people are dying all the time. Transfusion etc. Not to even mention boonstripping and team condi cleanses.

Our support is different, but it does not make it bad by any means.

spoj.9672:

Spreadsheets are not why people think necro is bad. The reality of the classes previous lack of utility was the reason. Had nothing to do with dps and it had nothing to do with spreadsheets. You dont calculate utility on spreadsheets.

I have heard that Necro deals kitten damage / is the lowest dps in the game more times than I can count. I’ve been playing since Beta, and I use to think it was true because of how much people talked about dps calculations. So maybe you aren’t one of those people, but then I just saw you say how terrible Necro condition damage is in another ongoing thread when someone asked about it.

The one to Rule.2593:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

The one to Rule.2593:

spoj.9672:

Spreadsheets are not why people think necro is bad. The reality of the classes previous lack of utility was the reason. Had nothing to do with dps and it had nothing to do with spreadsheets. You dont calculate utility on spreadsheets.

Maybe those players should rely less on teammates preventing them from dying and rely more on their own skill then there wouldn’t be this stupid persecution of classes. Honestly, I’ve played every class in the game quite a bit. I don’t find necromancers lacking at all.

“Prevent them from dying” what the kitten lmao
It’s not about people relying on others not to die, it’s about bringing useful tools to the party like fields, blasts, reflects/projectile destruction, unique buffs etc. so that the party can achieve higher efficiency and a smoother run.
That being said, yes, Necromancers got better over time but back then we didn’t have as much to bring.

So what? rely on yourself and not everyone else. Rely on what YOU can bring to a team not what everyone else can. Necro does bring things to the table so I’m not really sure where all this is coming from. We have projectile destruction, party wide life siphon Great dps and guess what? we don’t have to rely on ele’s or ps warriors for our own might generation. Aoe blinds for team support in bosses where people are dying all the time. Transfusion etc. Not to even mention boonstripping and team condi cleanses.

Our support is different, but it does not make it bad by any means.

Sorry come again?
Why in hell would I >not< expect my party to bring things? If I want to rely on myself I solo.
Besides, I especially mentioned that Necros didn’t have much BACK THEN, because we surely didn’t have CPC, leech and other things in their current form months or years ago, which is the time that stigma is coming from in the first place. DPS is also okay, not great. Other classes outperform us.
Yes, even back then Necro was capable of some nifty tricks, the issue however was that it wasn’t as easily accessible or was plagued by other issues when another class was able to do this in a much easier fashion. One of the reasons Necro isn’t optimal and, back then, much less viable. Now we’re finally closing this gap, though I doubt we’ll ever see a spot in optimal party compositions except things are going to change in one way or another.

It was true. But it was more of necro was one of the multiple lower dps classes. Which means it was roughly the same as the 4 other lower dps classes. But that statement was also usually as follows:

“Necro is bad because it is purely selfish and offers no meaningful utility. It is also one of the lower dps classes. So why should we pick necro?”

Context is important. If you ignore half the statement of course things get twisted.

Disclaimer: This statement is no longer true!

edit: Necro condi damage is weaker than other classes. Or is it outrageous to state the truth as well? Cant win with you people. Also nice of you to twist what i said into something completely different. Weaker than other classes =/ terrible at condi damage.

@Altoid, I’ve been playing Necro for a long time as well (since launch) and think you need to put several things into perspective.

First, back in the day Necro used to be in a much, much worse spot PvE-wise than it is now. That, and the fact that people were still in the process of figuring out the game when the “berserker meta” emerged, resulted in the exclusion of several classes (e.g. Ranger and Necro). This stuck with some people until this very day. My brother for examples plays Druid in fractals and even though Ranger/Druid more or less has been excepted to be a valuable addition to the meta he still occasionally faces issues with people advertising their parties as “meta parties”.

BUT, and this is the important part, can you really hold the creators of the builds that happen to become accepted as “meta” responsible for ill-informed people essentially just being kittenbags in PuGs? I personally don’t think so.

This is an old discussion and we could get really serious and philosophical about it (“Were J.R. Oppenheimer and other scientist working on the Manhattan Project directly responsible for the ~40k people dying in the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?”), but let’s not do that, OK? =P

I think everybody should take a deep breath, take a step back and remember that this is just a game.

People tend to think necros are bad due to the “stacking in a corner meta.”
Or the fact they used to have low dps, & were a more self-sustained/selfish class rather than any kind of support.
If you had a necro who didn’t fully understand their class, they would fear enemies away or their minions would tank them from afar & most enemies would AoE the party down from afar, then there was the lack of DPS. But that was the boring old stacking zerker meta.

Necro’s aren’t bad- just the playstyle people adopt in dungeons & instances that shuns out some professions & highlights others.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

The one to Rule.2593:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

The one to Rule.2593:

spoj.9672:

Spreadsheets are not why people think necro is bad. The reality of the classes previous lack of utility was the reason. Had nothing to do with dps and it had nothing to do with spreadsheets. You dont calculate utility on spreadsheets.

Maybe those players should rely less on teammates preventing them from dying and rely more on their own skill then there wouldn’t be this stupid persecution of classes. Honestly, I’ve played every class in the game quite a bit. I don’t find necromancers lacking at all.

“Prevent them from dying” what the kitten lmao
It’s not about people relying on others not to die, it’s about bringing useful tools to the party like fields, blasts, reflects/projectile destruction, unique buffs etc. so that the party can achieve higher efficiency and a smoother run.
That being said, yes, Necromancers got better over time but back then we didn’t have as much to bring.

So what? rely on yourself and not everyone else. Rely on what YOU can bring to a team not what everyone else can. Necro does bring things to the table so I’m not really sure where all this is coming from. We have projectile destruction, party wide life siphon Great dps and guess what? we don’t have to rely on ele’s or ps warriors for our own might generation. Aoe blinds for team support in bosses where people are dying all the time. Transfusion etc. Not to even mention boonstripping and team condi cleanses.

Our support is different, but it does not make it bad by any means.

Sorry come again?
Why in hell would I >not< expect my party to bring things? If I want to rely on myself I solo.
Besides, I especially mentioned that Necros didn’t have much BACK THEN, because we surely didn’t have CPC, leech and other things in their current form months or years ago, which is the time that stigma is coming from in the first place. DPS is also okay, not great. Other classes outperform us.
Yes, even back then Necro was capable of some nifty tricks, the issue however was that it wasn’t as easily accessible or was plagued by other issues when another class was able to do this in a much easier fashion. One of the reasons Necro isn’t optimal and, back then, much less viable. Now we’re finally closing this gap, though I doubt we’ll ever see a spot in optimal party compositions except things are going to change in one way or another.

If you’re dying all the time in a party, chances are it’s probably you being bad and not your party, people really need to stop blaming everyone else when they fail at things. And quite honestly, if you aren’t going for world record runs, 2-3 minutes extra on a dungeon path is no big deal.

Now that dungeons are dying, the only real place we’ll see the " meta" bs that forces us to play classes we don’t even like are going to be in raids. Completely discriminating against classes is not good for the health of this game. I agree there are inherent flaws with necromancers, but there are flaws to any class.

Nemesis.8593:

You have seen my videos with your own eyes and you know i do not start the clock at prebuffing… in addition to that I have told you 5 times already that i do not start the clock when buffing starts… i only did it once to show what kind of a DPS loss prebuffing actually is.

Nowhere have you ever stated that this is a one time thing, and when we had our little dispute yesterday you even tried to defend your method as valid once again…

Nemesis.8593:

You also saw the real DPS values of the world records, which you now claim no one has done… you also saw the real DPS values of icebow and how it carried people at bosses with a large enough hitbox.

Err, no. What i saw in your videos were you claiming this constantly verbally, while some random fights against mossman /bloomhunger were running in the background. Nor have I ever claimed that no one used icebows. What I told you way back is that linecasting was despised upon by the community when it came to record kills. You maybe mix me up with other people.

Nemesis.8593:

I have told you all of these a couple of times already every time you try to contradict me, besides the fact you have seen these facts with your own eyes…
You also have no records, no guides no nothing… you probably never even did any math on your own.

I have not tried to contradict you, I simply pointed out where the flaws in your method are. This has nothing to do with the person using these flawed methods. You make this a personal thing, and I still don’t see a reason why I should care enough about you to attack your personally. If anything, your behavior is worrisome from a observer POV.
Also yes, I don’t publish spreadsheets usually, but I have tons of build-recommendations in my post-history, mainly because I rather come up with individualized builds in PvP situations, a place where dps is only a small portion of your concerns. Feel free to look them up.
Besides, explain me what my publish-behavior has to do with the validation of my points? Why do I have to be a avid user of a method in order to understand & utilize it when needed? Does that mean you have even less of a clue than me, since you straight up refuse to use it?

All you do is contradict me with 100% false claims and provide others with misleading information… straight up teaching them bad things with 0 proof to back up anything you claim.

Nope, that’s solely your business.
- You start the clock at random times.
- Tell people your actual dps is what they can expect to meet always, instead of spreadsheet math (mistake here is that there is no one playing like you, since everybody has unique skill-levels & unique RNG outcomes, so no one will ever meet your numbers as well)
- Use RNG as argument why spreadsheets will never reflect reality and right after that try to use exactly this – theoretical calculations – to build the RNG of dodges into normalized calculation models.

Nemesis.8593:

Why isn’t this against regulations ?…

“Providing misleading information nonstop” should be against the rules on this forum.

It is, guess why you get banned so often. But misleading information is not what you think it is, it is constantly derailing threads with ad-hominems & public shaming attacks. Could you maybe stop using these vicious methods and rely on the content of you points only? I don’t know if you realize that, but you keep attacking those who disagree with you, constantly. Look up in the rest of the thread, where I had civil discussion with others. Have you seen me jumping their throat for disagreeing with me?

Here’s a question for you since you are so “happy to help”.

What’s the damage rotation behind the 25K DPS revenant ?
(I bet you are going to look it up right now and make a comeback…)

You have absolutely no idea what’s in those spreadsheets or how they reached those numbers or why… but you continue to make assumption after assumption after assumption…

You’re right, I don’t play revenant currently, so I’ve not looked up how meta-builds look like for it. But if you want to, I could give you my interpretation of what it says about sinister engi, since I was personally very interested in that topic.
As stated above, I don’t use the meta that often, still the content of the spreadsheets is very easily understandable. I mean, there are literally just the continuous calculation of 4 values, generated by your gear-choice + individual formulas for each condition type.
What is there, so complicated that I wouldn’t understand it unless I crunch the numbers 24/7 for 2 years^^

I think i’m getting a headache again, there’s simply too many “experts” who don’t even have the slightest idea what damage rotation were used in the spreadsheets but they continue to make claims… X is better then Y, this is better then that… you should do this and that…

No idea if you even address me with that, but if you do, read my posts again. You might learn a thing or two. Also, quit the constant ad-hominem. It just derails threads & leads towards infractions for both of us and anyone else who steps down to your level.

Just to remember you where I came from:
You compared your high-dps necro to a warri buff-support build, and told everybody that your higher personal dps on your necro build were reason enough to push phalanx strength warris out of the meta, using your flawed dmg calculation model. This was literally the point of your first video, and the first time I responded to you, because it seemed odd to me.
I challenged this, by pointing out the flaws in both your method and your final conclusion. You decided to call me troll, and ripped my posts out of context, even trying to publicly shame me in your 3rd clip by publicly posting them on youtube.
And this very behavior is prohibited by the CoC of these forums, sadly it didn’t happen on these forums…
Hence we’re sitting here, me defending myself against the public shame attack of a random youtuber, that is trapped in his own limited mindset of how dps-calculations and the meta in general have to look like.
And you… no idea what you’re up to still. Clicks? Money from dulfy for your builds? Just the comfy feeling of being perceived as right? I sincerely have no idea.
You wouldn’t get all these headaches if you’d not have attacked me – and others – personally in the first place.

The one to Rule.2593:

If you’re dying all the time in a party, chances are it’s probably you being bad and not your party, people really need to stop blaming everyone else when they fail at things. And quite honestly, if you aren’t going for world record runs, 2-3 minutes extra on a dungeon path is no big deal.

Now that dungeons are dying, the only real place we’ll see the " meta" bs that forces us to play classes we don’t even like are going to be in raids. Completely discriminating against classes is not good for the health of this game. I agree there are inherent flaws with necromancers, but there are flaws to any class.

Are you talking about world record runs in the bolded part?
In general, I completely despise the attitude that is dominating the mmo-scene in general and that started way back in GW1, because it isn’t just unhealthy for a game, it leads to things the more casual gamers don’t want in the first place, like item-stores.
The more players are shied away by telling them “you are useless”, “we don’t care whether you’re having fun, we want efficiency”, the more undesired side-effects we are going to see, eg me never setting a foot into one of the dungeons, because I want to experience them as they were meant to be played, not rushed into a corner and being blinded by all the flashy effects to some extent.

Arantheal.7396:

Nemesis.8593:

You have seen my videos with your own eyes and you know i do not start the clock at prebuffing… in addition to that I have told you 5 times already that i do not start the clock when buffing starts… i only did it once to show what kind of a DPS loss prebuffing actually is.

Nowhere have you ever stated that this is a one time thing, and when we had our little dispute yesterday you even tried to defend your method as valid once again…

Nemesis.8593:

You also saw the real DPS values of the world records, which you now claim no one has done… you also saw the real DPS values of icebow and how it carried people at bosses with a large enough hitbox.

Err, no. What i saw in your videos were you claiming this constantly verbally, while some random fights against mossman /bloomhunger were running in the background. Nor have I ever claimed that no one used icebows. What I told you way back is that linecasting was despised upon by the community when it came to record kills. You maybe mix me up with other people.

Nemesis.8593:

I have told you all of these a couple of times already every time you try to contradict me, besides the fact you have seen these facts with your own eyes…
You also have no records, no guides no nothing… you probably never even did any math on your own.

I have not tried to contradict you, I simply pointed out where the flaws in your method are. This has nothing to do with the person using these flawed methods. You make this a personal thing, and I still don’t see a reason why I should care enough about you to attack your personally. If anything, your behavior is worrisome from a observer POV.
Also yes, I don’t publish spreadsheets usually, but I have tons of build-recommendations in my post-history, mainly because I rather come up with individualized builds in PvP situations, a place where dps is only a small portion of your concerns. Feel free to look them up.
Besides, explain me what my publish-behavior has to do with the validation of my points? Why do I have to be a avid user of a method in order to understand & utilize it when needed? Does that mean you have even less of a clue than me, since you straight up refuse to use it?

All you do is contradict me with 100% false claims and provide others with misleading information… straight up teaching them bad things with 0 proof to back up anything you claim.

Nope, that’s solely your business.
- You start the clock at random times.
- Tell people your actual dps is what they can expect to meet always, instead of spreadsheet math (mistake here is that there is no one playing like you, since everybody has unique skill-levels & unique RNG outcomes, so no one will ever meet your numbers as well)
- Use RNG as argument why spreadsheets will never reflect reality and right after that try to use exactly this – theoretical calculations – to build the RNG of dodges into normalized calculation models.

Nemesis.8593:

Why isn’t this against regulations ?…

“Providing misleading information nonstop” should be against the rules on this forum.

It is, guess why you get banned so often. But misleading information is not what you think it is, it is constantly derailing threads with ad-hominems & public shaming attacks. Could you maybe stop using these vicious methods and rely on the content of you points only? I don’t know if you realize that, but you keep attacking those who disagree with you, constantly. Look up in the rest of the thread, where I had civil discussion with others. Have you seen me jumping their throat for disagreeing with me?

Here’s a question for you since you are so “happy to help”.

What’s the damage rotation behind the 25K DPS revenant ?
(I bet you are going to look it up right now and make a comeback…)

You have absolutely no idea what’s in those spreadsheets or how they reached those numbers or why… but you continue to make assumption after assumption after assumption…

You’re right, I don’t play revenant currently, so I’ve not looked up how meta-builds look like for it. But if you want to, I could give you my interpretation of what it says about sinister engi, since I was personally very interested in that topic.
As stated above, I don’t use the meta that often, still the content of the spreadsheets is very easily understandable. I mean, there are literally just the continuous calculation of 4 values, generated by your gear-choice + individual formulas for each condition type.
What is there, so complicated that I wouldn’t understand it unless I crunch the numbers 24/7 for 2 years^^

I think i’m getting a headache again, there’s simply too many “experts” who don’t even have the slightest idea what damage rotation were used in the spreadsheets but they continue to make claims… X is better then Y, this is better then that… you should do this and that…

No idea if you even address me with that, but if you do, read my posts again. You might learn a thing or two. Also, quit the constant ad-hominem. It just derails threads & leads towards infractions for both of us and anyone else who steps down to your level.

Just to remember you where I came from:
You compared your high-dps necro to a warri buff-support build, and told everybody that your higher personal dps on your necro build were reason enough to push phalanx strength warris out of the meta, using your flawed dmg calculation model. This was literally the point of your first video, and the first time I responded to you, because it seemed odd to me.
I challenged this, by pointing out the flaws in both your method and your final conclusion. You decided to call me troll, and ripped my posts out of context, even trying to publicly shame me in your 3rd clip by publicly posting them on youtube.
And this very behavior is prohibited by the CoC of these forums, sadly it didn’t happen on these forums…
Hence we’re sitting here, me defending myself against the public shame attack of a random youtuber, that is trapped in his own limited mindset of how dps-calculations and the meta in general have to look like.
And you… no idea what you’re up to still. Clicks? Money from dulfy for your builds? Just the comfy feeling of being perceived as right? I sincerely have no idea.
You wouldn’t get all these headaches if you’d not have attacked me – and others – personally in the first place.

Not even going to waste more time on this… just reading through it i saw you straight up lied 4 times by the time i got to the middle. I said “you have seen with your own eyes when i start the timer, and i told you that just in case you missed it”… and you go “blabla… no no no… there were random fights” on fights i literally show how i take them off of world record website.

You’re either the kind of person who has a spoon in his hand and goes…

“there is no spoon… who am i and why do i have ice-cream in my hand”… or you are doing all of this on purpose… over and over again in hopes to irritate me, so that i say something a little bit more aggressive, so you guys can report me once again so i get banned once again.

Clever… however i have learned what i can and can not say here so i don’t get banned even if i get reported, and i do get reported quite often… but i guess you already knew that didn’t you.

You don’t have even half the game knowledge required to be giving advice and to be contradicting me, or anyone else for that matter.

For OP… and any new player reading through all of this, all i have to say is that… as you can see there are a lot of “experts” around… so before trusting anyone on anything they claim, EVEN ME, you should ask for proof which back up those claims.

Remember this my friends, always ask for proof… cause you see without a damage meter, anyone can claim anything… and they have…

Last 2 questions for Arantheal the engineer who is giving necromancer advice to everyone.

What is the necromancer’s DPS ?
What is the engineer’s DPS ?

Hey nemesis what about Particlars tempest video where he shows he does 29,700 DPS after 16s and over 19k DPS over 72s on Bloomhunger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA6py7jiV88

Are you going bash it too and say its all fake and wrong
What have you got to say about that

Altoid.9104:

spoj.9672:

Spreadsheets are not why people think necro is bad. The reality of the classes previous lack of utility was the reason. Had nothing to do with dps and it had nothing to do with spreadsheets. You dont calculate utility on spreadsheets.

I have heard that Necro deals kitten damage / is the lowest dps in the game more times than I can count. I’ve been playing since Beta, and I use to think it was true because of how much people talked about dps calculations. So maybe you aren’t one of those people, but then I just saw you say how terrible Necro condition damage is in another ongoing thread when someone asked about it.

Exactly… we all have heard this time and time again… even now if you as a necromancer make an LFG for anything very few people join, if i switch to engineer i get instantly full group.

Going to quote Spoj here for a sec, so we are on the same page.

http://i.imgur.com/vnFLGG7.png
http://i.imgur.com/oN6ysGn.png
http://i.imgur.com/YK4RQBh.png
http://i.imgur.com/ZZpPcm7.jpg

OP… you asked why everyone thinks necromancer is bad ?… Here’s just a few reasons, and he has been doing this for years… an avid believer of the math-in-a-void despite what he now claims, after i released my video proof which shows all the math is fake.

He said a few times “no one claimed necromancer’s damage was low, he was not taken for the support”.
As you can see that is not true and also it’s an illogical sentence to begin with… since you don’t kill a boss with support, the support in a group should have been for a necromancer… but it wasn’t… because everyone though the necromancer’s damage is the lowest.

Arantheal.7396:

Nemesis.8593:

You have seen my videos with your own eyes and you know i do not start the clock at prebuffing… in addition to that I have told you 5 times already that i do not start the clock when buffing starts… i only did it once to show what kind of a DPS loss prebuffing actually is.

Nowhere have you ever stated that this is a one time thing, and when we had our little dispute yesterday you even tried to defend your method as valid once again…

Nemesis.8593:

You also saw the real DPS values of the world records, which you now claim no one has done… you also saw the real DPS values of icebow and how it carried people at bosses with a large enough hitbox.

Err, no. What i saw in your videos were you claiming this constantly verbally, while some random fights against mossman /bloomhunger were running in the background. Nor have I ever claimed that no one used icebows. What I told you way back is that linecasting was despised upon by the community when it came to record kills. You maybe mix me up with other people.

Nemesis.8593:

I have told you all of these a couple of times already every time you try to contradict me, besides the fact you have seen these facts with your own eyes…
You also have no records, no guides no nothing… you probably never even did any math on your own.

I have not tried to contradict you, I simply pointed out where the flaws in your method are. This has nothing to do with the person using these flawed methods. You make this a personal thing, and I still don’t see a reason why I should care enough about you to attack your personally. If anything, your behavior is worrisome from a observer POV.
Also yes, I don’t publish spreadsheets usually, but I have tons of build-recommendations in my post-history, mainly because I rather come up with individualized builds in PvP situations, a place where dps is only a small portion of your concerns. Feel free to look them up.
Besides, explain me what my publish-behavior has to do with the validation of my points? Why do I have to be a avid user of a method in order to understand & utilize it when needed? Does that mean you have even less of a clue than me, since you straight up refuse to use it?

All you do is contradict me with 100% false claims and provide others with misleading information… straight up teaching them bad things with 0 proof to back up anything you claim.

Nope, that’s solely your business.
- You start the clock at random times.
- Tell people your actual dps is what they can expect to meet always, instead of spreadsheet math (mistake here is that there is no one playing like you, since everybody has unique skill-levels & unique RNG outcomes, so no one will ever meet your numbers as well)
- Use RNG as argument why spreadsheets will never reflect reality and right after that try to use exactly this – theoretical calculations – to build the RNG of dodges into normalized calculation models.

Nemesis.8593:

Why isn’t this against regulations ?…

“Providing misleading information nonstop” should be against the rules on this forum.

It is, guess why you get banned so often. But misleading information is not what you think it is, it is constantly derailing threads with ad-hominems & public shaming attacks. Could you maybe stop using these vicious methods and rely on the content of you points only? I don’t know if you realize that, but you keep attacking those who disagree with you, constantly. Look up in the rest of the thread, where I had civil discussion with others. Have you seen me jumping their throat for disagreeing with me?

Here’s a question for you since you are so “happy to help”.

What’s the damage rotation behind the 25K DPS revenant ?
(I bet you are going to look it up right now and make a comeback…)

You have absolutely no idea what’s in those spreadsheets or how they reached those numbers or why… but you continue to make assumption after assumption after assumption…

You’re right, I don’t play revenant currently, so I’ve not looked up how meta-builds look like for it. But if you want to, I could give you my interpretation of what it says about sinister engi, since I was personally very interested in that topic.
As stated above, I don’t use the meta that often, still the content of the spreadsheets is very easily understandable. I mean, there are literally just the continuous calculation of 4 values, generated by your gear-choice + individual formulas for each condition type.
What is there, so complicated that I wouldn’t understand it unless I crunch the numbers 24/7 for 2 years^^

I think i’m getting a headache again, there’s simply too many “experts” who don’t even have the slightest idea what damage rotation were used in the spreadsheets but they continue to make claims… X is better then Y, this is better then that… you should do this and that…

No idea if you even address me with that, but if you do, read my posts again. You might learn a thing or two. Also, quit the constant ad-hominem. It just derails threads & leads towards infractions for both of us and anyone else who steps down to your level.

Just to remember you where I came from:
You compared your high-dps necro to a warri buff-support build, and told everybody that your higher personal dps on your necro build were reason enough to push phalanx strength warris out of the meta, using your flawed dmg calculation model. This was literally the point of your first video, and the first time I responded to you, because it seemed odd to me.
I challenged this, by pointing out the flaws in both your method and your final conclusion. You decided to call me troll, and ripped my posts out of context, even trying to publicly shame me in your 3rd clip by publicly posting them on youtube.
And this very behavior is prohibited by the CoC of these forums, sadly it didn’t happen on these forums…
Hence we’re sitting here, me defending myself against the public shame attack of a random youtuber, that is trapped in his own limited mindset of how dps-calculations and the meta in general have to look like.
And you… no idea what you’re up to still. Clicks? Money from dulfy for your builds? Just the comfy feeling of being perceived as right? I sincerely have no idea.
You wouldn’t get all these headaches if you’d not have attacked me – and others – personally in the first place.

I love your stereotype of men in the internet.

I follow Nemesis since he published this video.

It was fresh breath for me, to play something different and also see that there are other people think like this, GW2 can’t consist of Berserker, Berserker,……

Since then I used this build all the time in Fractals, with advertising, “come with me, you will not die and we will finish the fractal” and all the people who were kicked from other groups, necros, rangers but also meta glass cannons joined me and we finished the fractals instead of hours of wiping with PUG groups. Sure will it be slower then speed run meta battle group but it chances of finishing a fractal is much higher then a PUG wiping over and over.

When I argument it in the forums, ok my DPS is not existent but you will do DPS much more when I am around people ridiculed me.

Those beliefs were because of those spreadsheets telling a Warrior will do 14K DPS but mentioning nothing about it is not doable when you are at down state half of the time.

Now, Nemesis did the hard work and added one by one every single damage entry in the combat log to calculate the real dps of those classes plus the augmented effect of the Ice Bow.

So anybody who wants to prove he speaks BS or he is wrong with his calculations has to just the proof of his work which is calculate the numbers in the combat log.

So if you are coming out here and saying, his all work is BS but you have no proof, this is just hot air.

If you are not doing this proof work you are either.
- You know his results are correct and you are just trolling here.
- Or you are just lazy.

In both case silence is golden.

doomslayer.6574:

Hey nemesis what about Particlars tempest video where he shows he does 29,700 DPS after 16s and over 19k DPS over 72s on Bloomhunger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA6py7jiV88

Are you going bash it too and say its all fake and wrong
What have you got to say about that

During the livestream someone said he has proof of higher DPS, and i encouraged him to present it to us for all to see… it was this video…

Yes… this is actually MY POINT so i thanked the person for presenting us with this video and for being the first to finally convert to REAL DPS numbers.

Observe…

http://i.imgur.com/uWDaTcU.jpg – no icebow
http://i.imgur.com/lkF0R2V.jpg – 2 icebows
http://i.imgur.com/YkxeXxA.jpg – 4 icebows

Although the majority of people still do not acknowledge icebow was carrying them at targets with a large enough hitbox… and also that necromancer could ever be higher DPS then a warrior who also buffs, hence the initial comparison.

http://i.imgur.com/7BsOrXx.jpg

But the trick is… icebow hard-carries ONLY on bosses with a large enough hitbox and no mechanics which can negate the icebow burst (which was 80K DPS over 3.7 sec… totaling at 300.000 damage)… leaving players playing really “bad builds for the encounter and thinking they are extremely effective”.

Observe:
http://i.imgur.com/BEwmuqI.jpg

So if you are the author of that video, i thank you for it… at least we now know the icebow nerf was real and i don’t have to verify that for myself.

I wish more people would collaborate with me to get more REAL DPS benchmarks out so that we can finally… after 2 years… have actual optimized groups for encounters, not stuff that relies on icebow and only works in a few situations…

PS: I see a few of these “necromancer experts” continue to ignore all my facts or questions, and spread misleading information which they don’t even understand… i’m done…

More and more people are questioning the real DPS numbers, and those who have trashed the necromancer class in the past have changed their mind since i released my videos…
In time… people’s perspective on the necromancer class will get fixed, i have already won. Unless of course they want to take credit for my work again, but i’ll make sure that never happens… there’s a reason why i am around these forums and keep answering people, get some more snapshots… you may never know when you need them.

OP… and any new player here, remember… everything and anything anyone ever claims, EVEN ME, has to be proven… that is all…

Good luck everyone.

posthumecaver.6473:

Arantheal.7396:

-snip-

-snip-

So explaining why his method is flawed does not contribute to showing why his method is flawed? It got posted by me in this thread already:

“Welp, that gives you your actual dps, but keep in mind that it is heavily influenced by
- your personal skill-level – the ability to execute the rotations perfectly to all times (or not)
- your groups skill level – the ability to keep you buffed and on +90% health to all time, while keeping the boss debuffed
- RNG – the amount of times you’re forced to dodge due to Gw2’s random agro system choosing you as its victim
- More RNG – the engine throwing dices for your current weapon strength modifier”

“If you ask me, both methods are needed.
…Just don’t make the same mistake as nemesis and start the clock in the buff-phase^^”

I feel sincerely sorry for you that you had to deal with unfriendly people, abusing this math to discriminate others. This is not fair, nor very reasonable, as you’ve found out yourself already by running fractals without meta-heads.
And even tho you seem to be a fan of nemesis, don’t repeat his mistake of assuming that neutral math can harass people.
Keep thinking for yourself and make up your mind on your own. If you enjoy his builds, keep running them, just don’t follow him into this abyss of paranoia, drama and public shaming attacks.
Jftr, I am male, don’t support tumblr-tier feminism and definitively don’t support their methods of attacking people when they oppose their opinion. Nemesis on the other hand ripped posts from this forum out of context, publicly presented them in his channel, and now tries to let me appear as someone speaking out of his kitten .
And once I start to defend myself, my point & my reputation, he rallies his followers to silence the opposition. At least that’s what your post appears as.
I don’t know you, I don’t know your intend, and i couldn’t care less. But you display a very worrisome behavior if you think a random youtuber needs your call for silence when he’s about to get the short stick in a debate.

Arantheal.7396:

posthumecaver.6473:

Arantheal.7396:

-snip-

-snip-

So explaining why his method is flawed does not contribute to showing why his method is flawed? It got posted by me in this thread already:

“Welp, that gives you your actual dps, but keep in mind that it is heavily influenced by
- your personal skill-level – the ability to execute the rotations perfectly to all times (or not)
- your groups skill level – the ability to keep you buffed and on +90% health to all time, while keeping the boss debuffed
- RNG – the amount of times you’re forced to dodge due to Gw2’s random agro system choosing you as its victim
- More RNG – the engine throwing dices for your current weapon strength modifier”

“If you ask me, both methods are needed.
…Just don’t make the same mistake as nemesis and start the clock in the buff-phase^^”

I feel sincerely sorry for you that you had to deal with unfriendly people, abusing this math to discriminate others. This is not fair, nor very reasonable, as you’ve found out yourself already by running fractals without meta-heads.
And even tho you seem to be a fan of nemesis, don’t repeat his mistake of assuming that neutral math can harass people.
Keep thinking for yourself and make up your mind on your own. If you enjoy his builds, keep running them, just don’t follow him into this abyss of paranoia, drama and public shaming attacks.
Jftr, I am male, don’t support tumblr-tier feminism and definitively don’t support their methods of attacking people when they oppose their opinion. Nemesis on the other hand ripped posts from this forum out of context, publicly presented them in his channel, and now tries to let me appear as someone speaking out of his kitten .
And once I start to defend myself, my point & my reputation, he rallies his followers to silence the opposition. At least that’s what your post appears as.
I don’t know you, I don’t know your intend, and i couldn’t care less. But you display a very worrisome behavior if you think a random youtuber needs your call for silence when he’s about to get the short stick in a debate.

Mate the guy took the videos of the world record kills, by definition of the people who posted those videos are Elites, I think they are not considering themselves as scrubs who can’t follow their rotation but you are defining them kitten…

You have to clear with those people why do insult them this way but this is your problem.

But what you are doing here is only rhetoric and trolling nothing more..

And don’t concern yourself to much about my situation, just try to feel for the people who were kicked out from group while they just played a certain class.

And I am not fanboy from anybody, if you succeed to prove Nemesis is wrong with calculations, I will be first person to tell him, he is wrong with his calculations. I guess a fanboy will not do this.

posthumecaver.6473:

Arantheal.7396:

posthumecaver.6473:

Arantheal.7396:

-snip-

-snip-

So explaining why his method is flawed does not contribute to showing why his method is flawed? It got posted by me in this thread already:

“Welp, that gives you your actual dps, but keep in mind that it is heavily influenced by
- your personal skill-level – the ability to execute the rotations perfectly to all times (or not)
- your groups skill level – the ability to keep you buffed and on +90% health to all time, while keeping the boss debuffed
- RNG – the amount of times you’re forced to dodge due to Gw2’s random agro system choosing you as its victim
- More RNG – the engine throwing dices for your current weapon strength modifier”

“If you ask me, both methods are needed.
…Just don’t make the same mistake as nemesis and start the clock in the buff-phase^^”

I feel sincerely sorry for you that you had to deal with unfriendly people, abusing this math to discriminate others. This is not fair, nor very reasonable, as you’ve found out yourself already by running fractals without meta-heads.
And even tho you seem to be a fan of nemesis, don’t repeat his mistake of assuming that neutral math can harass people.
Keep thinking for yourself and make up your mind on your own. If you enjoy his builds, keep running them, just don’t follow him into this abyss of paranoia, drama and public shaming attacks.
Jftr, I am male, don’t support tumblr-tier feminism and definitively don’t support their methods of attacking people when they oppose their opinion. Nemesis on the other hand ripped posts from this forum out of context, publicly presented them in his channel, and now tries to let me appear as someone speaking out of his kitten .
And once I start to defend myself, my point & my reputation, he rallies his followers to silence the opposition. At least that’s what your post appears as.
I don’t know you, I don’t know your intend, and i couldn’t care less. But you display a very worrisome behavior if you think a random youtuber needs your call for silence when he’s about to get the short stick in a debate.

Mate the guy took the videos of the world record kill videos, by definition of the people who posted those videos are Elites, I think they are not considering themselves as scrubs who can’t follow their rotation but you are defining them kitten…

You have to clear with those people why do insult them this way but this is your problem.

But what you are doing here is only rhetoric and trolling nothing more..

And don’t concern yourself to much about my situation, just try to feel for the people who were kicked out from group while they just played a certain class.

Wait wait wait, how exactly do you think I’ve insulted anyone displayed in these videos?
Further, what lets you assume that all footage was taken from actual world record runs?
Brazil already stated that his warrior footage was taken from a guide-video where he didn’t even tried to perform on record level.

Get your sources straight, and PM nemesis to send you the source of every single clip he used. Then look up the sources and ask the owners of said footage what it was about, speedrun or not.
THEN you can come back and accuse me of insulting others, while telling me who exactly I appear to have insulted.

…Which I then will respond with " How can stating the fact that reality is imperfect be a insult", but we can save that for later, once you’re actually back from your educational journey.

…Listing facts is considered trolling nowadays…
What are they teaching people in schools!?

Also, just to make one thing clear:
You don’t get kicked from parties just for your class, if you read & meet the lfg or put up your own. If people don’t ask for your favorite class, respect their right to play the game however they want.
I feel sorry for people who get ridiculed on the forums or in mapchat for playing a certain class, but someone who forces himself into a group that did not ask for him or his build definitively doesn’t deserve any tears to be cried after them.
You have always the freedom to set up your own LFG. No one is preventing you from playing the game how you want.

Arantheal.7396:

posthumecaver.6473:

Arantheal.7396:

posthumecaver.6473:

Arantheal.7396:

-snip-

-snip-

So explaining why his method is flawed does not contribute to showing why his method is flawed? It got posted by me in this thread already:

“Welp, that gives you your actual dps, but keep in mind that it is heavily influenced by
- your personal skill-level – the ability to execute the rotations perfectly to all times (or not)
- your groups skill level – the ability to keep you buffed and on +90% health to all time, while keeping the boss debuffed
- RNG – the amount of times you’re forced to dodge due to Gw2’s random agro system choosing you as its victim
- More RNG – the engine throwing dices for your current weapon strength modifier”

“If you ask me, both methods are needed.
…Just don’t make the same mistake as nemesis and start the clock in the buff-phase^^”

I feel sincerely sorry for you that you had to deal with unfriendly people, abusing this math to discriminate others. This is not fair, nor very reasonable, as you’ve found out yourself already by running fractals without meta-heads.
And even tho you seem to be a fan of nemesis, don’t repeat his mistake of assuming that neutral math can harass people.
Keep thinking for yourself and make up your mind on your own. If you enjoy his builds, keep running them, just don’t follow him into this abyss of paranoia, drama and public shaming attacks.
Jftr, I am male, don’t support tumblr-tier feminism and definitively don’t support their methods of attacking people when they oppose their opinion. Nemesis on the other hand ripped posts from this forum out of context, publicly presented them in his channel, and now tries to let me appear as someone speaking out of his kitten .
And once I start to defend myself, my point & my reputation, he rallies his followers to silence the opposition. At least that’s what your post appears as.
I don’t know you, I don’t know your intend, and i couldn’t care less. But you display a very worrisome behavior if you think a random youtuber needs your call for silence when he’s about to get the short stick in a debate.

Mate the guy took the videos of the world record kill videos, by definition of the people who posted those videos are Elites, I think they are not considering themselves as scrubs who can’t follow their rotation but you are defining them kitten…

You have to clear with those people why do insult them this way but this is your problem.

But what you are doing here is only rhetoric and trolling nothing more..

And don’t concern yourself to much about my situation, just try to feel for the people who were kicked out from group while they just played a certain class.

Wait wait wait, how exactly do you think I’ve insulted anyone displayed in these videos?
Further, what lets you assume that all footage was taken from actual world record runs?
Brazil already stated that his warrior footage was taken from a guide-video where he didn’t even tried to perform on record level.

Get your sources straight, and PM nemesis to send you the source of every single clip he used. Then look up the sources and ask the owners of said footage what it was about, speedrun or not.
THEN you can come back and accuse me of insulting others, while telling me who exactly I appear to have insulted.

…Which I then will respond with " How can stating the fact that reality is imperfect be a insult", but we can save that for later, once you’re actually back from your educational journey.

…Listing facts is considered trolling nowadays…
What are they teaching people in schools!?

Also, just to make one thing clear:
You don’t get kicked from parties just for your class, if you read & meet the lfg or put up your own. If people don’t ask for your favorite class, respect their right to play the game however they want.
I feel sorry for people who get ridiculed on the forums or in mapchat for playing a certain class, but someone who forces himself into a group that did not ask for him or his build definitively doesn’t deserve any tears to be cried after them.
You have always the freedom to set up your own LFG. No one is preventing you from playing the game how you want.

More rhetoric, more trolling, more elitism….

Prove the calculations are wrong then we can speak again….

posthumecaver.6473:

More rhetoric, more trolling, more elitism….

And not a single valid point to oppose it.
Bye bye, we both are done here.

edit:
after you edited your post, here is my edit:

Prove the calculations are wrong then we can speak again….

“Welp, that gives you your actual dps, but keep in mind that it is heavily influenced by
- your personal skill-level – the ability to execute the rotations perfectly to all times (or not)
- your groups skill level – the ability to keep you buffed and on +90% health to all time, while keeping the boss debuffed
- RNG – the amount of times you’re forced to dodge due to Gw2’s random agro system choosing you as its victim
- More RNG – the engine throwing dices for your current weapon strength modifier”

“If you ask me, both methods are needed.
…Just don’t make the same mistake as nemesis and start the clock in the buff-phase^^”

Here you go, this is all you need to know about why nemesis numbers are next to irrelevant for theory-crafting. The numbers he added up within his system might be correct, but the system he uses is flawed in itself.
And even with his logical error being corrected, these numbers only indicate how good certain players are, not ho good their builds are. However, having a giant stash of individual dps calculations allows to analyze the user-friendliness of a build, therefore help to optimize those with ridiculously high requirements towards the player.

But yea, I guess I’m just trolling again by essentially repeating what I’ve already told you.^^

The one to Rule.2593:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

The one to Rule.2593:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

The one to Rule.2593:

spoj.9672:

Spreadsheets are not why people think necro is bad. The reality of the classes previous lack of utility was the reason. Had nothing to do with dps and it had nothing to do with spreadsheets. You dont calculate utility on spreadsheets.

Maybe those players should rely less on teammates preventing them from dying and rely more on their own skill then there wouldn’t be this stupid persecution of classes. Honestly, I’ve played every class in the game quite a bit. I don’t find necromancers lacking at all.

“Prevent them from dying” what the kitten lmao
It’s not about people relying on others not to die, it’s about bringing useful tools to the party like fields, blasts, reflects/projectile destruction, unique buffs etc. so that the party can achieve higher efficiency and a smoother run.
That being said, yes, Necromancers got better over time but back then we didn’t have as much to bring.

So what? rely on yourself and not everyone else. Rely on what YOU can bring to a team not what everyone else can. Necro does bring things to the table so I’m not really sure where all this is coming from. We have projectile destruction, party wide life siphon Great dps and guess what? we don’t have to rely on ele’s or ps warriors for our own might generation. Aoe blinds for team support in bosses where people are dying all the time. Transfusion etc. Not to even mention boonstripping and team condi cleanses.

Our support is different, but it does not make it bad by any means.

Sorry come again?
Why in hell would I >not< expect my party to bring things? If I want to rely on myself I solo.
Besides, I especially mentioned that Necros didn’t have much BACK THEN, because we surely didn’t have CPC, leech and other things in their current form months or years ago, which is the time that stigma is coming from in the first place. DPS is also okay, not great. Other classes outperform us.
Yes, even back then Necro was capable of some nifty tricks, the issue however was that it wasn’t as easily accessible or was plagued by other issues when another class was able to do this in a much easier fashion. One of the reasons Necro isn’t optimal and, back then, much less viable. Now we’re finally closing this gap, though I doubt we’ll ever see a spot in optimal party compositions except things are going to change in one way or another.

If you’re dying all the time in a party, chances are it’s probably you being bad and not your party, people really need to stop blaming everyone else when they fail at things. And quite honestly, if you aren’t going for world record runs, 2-3 minutes extra on a dungeon path is no big deal.

Now that dungeons are dying, the only real place we’ll see the " meta" bs that forces us to play classes we don’t even like are going to be in raids. Completely discriminating against classes is not good for the health of this game. I agree there are inherent flaws with necromancers, but there are flaws to any class.

Why are you so fixated on people dying? No one ever said they’re dying left and right.

Also, it is your fault for letting yourself get discriminated in a godkitten videogame, when the solution the your “issue” would’ve been “open own lfg” or “join a guild”. As a Necro main over three years, I never had any issues. Don’t join groups which are looking for specific things when you can’t fulfill the requirements and you won’t have issues, really.

Nemesis.8593:

Have you ever formulated a 30 sec DPS rotation based on math… not the other way around, figure out the rotation then use math to calculate it’s damage ?

Maybe i’m doing something wrong but it is time consuming…

It is actually easier than you’d think. I’ve been on a couple of MMOs where this info was hammered out. For the sake of rotation making, there’s two steps:

1) Categorize each skills individual DPS. You don’t actually need a build to do this, either. What you do is take any skills damage, divide it by its total time (activation time + animation time + aftercast time + game tick refresh rate), and you get the skill’s DPS. For skills in a chain, take the total time of the chain.

There are three values that are important here. DPS is above. DPR, or damage per recharge, is how much DPS the skill does over its total recharge time (that is, recharge time + all the other times I listed above), and auto DPS. This step is mostly archiving. It seems like a daunting task, but if done once, you don’t need to do it again, sans balance updates.

2) Actually coming up with the rotation. Most of these are fairly simple logic checks.

A)If a weapon skill has higher DPS than the auto attack, use it when off cooldown. If not, don’t.
B)If a utility skill has a higher DPS than the auto attack, use it when off cooldown. If not, don’t.

C) When comparing similar weapons, you check an average DPS. Most of the time, this is just all the damage it will do divided by its longest recharging skill. There’s a second method, but more on that later. Once you have a weighted DPS, you go with the weapon that has a higher weight.

D) When comparing utilities, you use the one with the highest DPR. When checking buffs and debuffs, those act as a modifier to DPS, and so the overall “damage” any buff does is equal to the modified damage – unmodified damage. I.E. if a skill gives you haste for 5 seconds every 30 seconds, then technically that skill will do ((1.5 x Auto Attack DPS – Auto attack DPS) x 5 seconds) damage.

Once you have the weapons with the highest average DPS, and utilities with the highest DPR,then you have your rotation: Start with buffs, use short cooldowns first, use all higher DPS skills when they are off cooldown.

After all that, it is a traveling salesman problem. You take it to the field, see what works, and what doesn’t work, and you tweak as necessary. The specializations and gear, those work as modifiers to the above. After tweaking for awhile, you get a more comprehensive build. The more experienced you are at the game, the faster you can tweak builds. The steps above, that can all be done in a day, by hand. Heck, you can eliminate most low DPS options at a glance.

You’re probably wondering where those big random “max DPS” numbers come from. This is a “weighted DPS”, AKA the second method of comparing weapons. The weighted DPS is the DPS of all skills in a rotation, with each multiplied by the percentage of time that skill will occupy. So, for example: lets say in a very simple build the DPS rotation is 20 seconds of auto attacking at 400 DPS, 6 seconds of weapon skill 2 at 800 DPS, 4 seconds of weapon skill 4 at 1000 DPS. The weighted DPS will be 400 × 20/30 + 800 × 6/30 + 1000 × 4/30 = 560 weighted DPS.

This is where I disagree with a lot of DPS calcs. Most DPS calcs you see use 30 seconds, no matter what. I find this absurd, as there are many skills that take longer than 30 seconds to recharge. Personally, were I to calculate DPS I would use the recharge time of the slowest recharging skill as my base time. Because then, instead of calculating DPS for an arbitrary “fight” with an arbitrary travel time to fix any inconveniences, I’ll have DPS for an indefinite fight. I find indefinite fight values much more useful because, surprise surprise, I don’t actually know how long any fight is until the fight is over.

As for the applicability for all this math, I’ve always found it dubious. One of the biggest problems I have with how these DPS calcs are done is that the only numbers you ever see are the MAX EVERYTHING PERFECT COMP VEGETABLE BOSS numbers. Basically, numbers nobody will see. I’d prefer it if the DPS calcs were divided into 3 sections: Solo DPS, Max Might + Fury, Max Might + Fury + Team Buffs + Enemy Debuffs.

The rotation itself is useful as a Plan A, but not much else.

The task you have is more monumental. Factoring damage uptime is a far more complicated issue than just calculating DPS. Active defenses (dodge, block, aegis, etc) are a finite barrier that exists regardless of your stats. I find that, roughly, berserker gear has 50% higher DPS than soldiers, while soldiers has anywhere from 207% to 260% higher effective health, depending on class. That number sounds big, but the higher effective health translates roughly to receiving only 48% to 38% of the damage, whereas the higher offensive power of zerker translates to receiving only 67% damage.

The thing you have to prove is that, in the time that you spend not dodging/blocking/using active defenses of some kind (time spans which last 3/4ths of a second each time), that those extra single hits from an Auto Attack or those minor build tweaks to have less active defenses results in more damage. Or failing that, the frequency to which a player fails in glass cannon gear but succeeds in tanky gear is high enough such that the overall time a fight takes is equal. Or, failing that, that the healing provided by support builds increases the success rate or reduces the active defenses of other teammates enough to justify the damage loss from running a healing spec.

I’m not sure it is true, even for HoT. I said this in the comments of one of your videos, but youtube comments aren’t the best place for elaboration, so I’ll say it here: The zerker meta is real. Not because somebody in some obscure corner did some calculations. Because it simply felt better. It worked better.

If you dig though my posts far enough, you’d probably see where I first came to the realization myself. At the time I had an engineer with full Magic Find gear, and a full Knight Set. They had the same offensive power. I noticed, by accident, that I did just as well in MF gear as I did in Knights, especially when soloing champions or swarms of enemies. The extra toughness, it bought me a hit or two. It wasn’t really doing much for me. So, eventually I swapped it out for a full zerker set, and then was amazed with how great it felt, and how well it played. I was making less mistakes because the fights were shorter, and if I did die it was much quicker to get to where I was again.

We supposed to help each other to improve and not fight between ourselves. Just chill and be helpful, peeps.

Lynnie.7213:

We supposed to help each other to improve and not fight between ourselves. Just chill and be helpful, peeps.

Word

It’s called tough love. To go forward, you have to fight against everyone holding you back. You have to be firm, because you need them to either change their mind or go away.