Guild Wars 2

Can someone tell me what is wrong and what is saying “necro is bad” in those quotes nemesis screenshotted. I was merely posting my theoretical findings.

And once again I explained that vid is before I optimised and was a recording test. No idea why you felt dps from a 2.5 year old test video is proof of anything.

How can someone be so narrow minded????

Nemesis has a video proof. Haven’t seen anyone else put it on internet (how he does math not only numbers).

How can you go REAL SCENARIO vs THEORY? People open your eyes…Ask yourself what you will trust…theory or real scenario cases..because after all you will find yourself in real scenario, not in a case where everything will be as on spreadsheet. There’s no need to argue about this…just believe what you have seen and it will be enough.

Icebow (the reason of absurdity in DPS numbers) is past.
Spreedsheat is theory.
No one does 20k DPS.
Period.

Maybe you should the rest of the thread. No one has claimed theory matches real dps….

@spoj, technically, there is nothing wrong about your comments Nemesis quoted, because at the time you were making these comments, it was definitely true (Necro really was in a much worse spot 1 or 2 years ago compared to today). I’m pretty sure even Nemesis acknowledged the fact that Necro was lacking in several important aspects of the game in one of his older videos btw.

The thing is, people just don’t like their main class being called bad. I think some people also interpret comments like that in such a way, that it seems to them as if these comments are also directed at them as players in general (“Necro is a bad class, therefore, Necro players are bad players”).

Unfortunately, there isn’t much you can do about that imo. It all comes down to how you formulated your criticism of the class and then how the people you are talking to interpret that criticism.

In addition to that, having someone like Nemesis constantly trying to goad people into being angry at the individuals he personally holds responsible for the discrimination Necro players had to face in the past (and to a lesser extent still have to face) doesn’t help to defuse the situation either =/

it leads to things the more casual gamers don’t want in the first place, like item-stores.

just had to to pull this out because how INCREDIBLY WRONG it is :P

item shops pervade self-titled ‘casual’ games, phone apps, etc. to a far greater extent than they do MMO.

Shoe.5821:

it leads to things the more casual gamers don’t want in the first place, like item-stores.

just had to to pull this out because how INCREDIBLY WRONG it is :P

item shops pervade self-titled ‘casual’ games, phone apps, etc. to a far greater extent than they do MMO.

How exactly is my statement incredibly wrong with respect to mmos?

Anyone taking bets on how long till this thread is closed?

Falanu.4289:

Shoe.5821:

it leads to things the more casual gamers don’t want in the first place, like item-stores.

just had to to pull this out because how INCREDIBLY WRONG it is :P

item shops pervade self-titled ‘casual’ games, phone apps, etc. to a far greater extent than they do MMO.

How exactly is my statement incredibly wrong with respect to mmos?

if casual gamers didn’t want item shops, they wouldn’t be in casual games. Enthusiast and hardcore gamers care a lot more about item shops (and pay to win) than casuals do.

Bhawb.7408:

Anyone taking bets on how long till this thread is closed?

I’m just glad that we saw what might be the longest quotes ever quoted before that happens.

And at the very least, this is a good example of what happens when you cling too hard to pride.

Shoe.5821:

Falanu.4289:

Shoe.5821:

it leads to things the more casual gamers don’t want in the first place, like item-stores.

just had to to pull this out because how INCREDIBLY WRONG it is :P

item shops pervade self-titled ‘casual’ games, phone apps, etc. to a far greater extent than they do MMO.

How exactly is my statement incredibly wrong with respect to mmos?

if casual gamers didn’t want item shops, they wouldn’t be in casual games. Enthusiast and hardcore gamers care a lot more about item shops (and pay to win) than casuals do.

Thank you. I have a completely opposing opinion on that matter, but that should not be discussed in this thread.
But the input you gave makes me think, ask around for a while.

echoeagle.5439:

I love them, I got all the minions with death and blood magic and enemies never even touch me. Maybe in pvp they suck cuz players are smart enough to ignore the minions but I think its really awesome playing with them

Necros deal subpar damage (in ideal situations). You are glad that enemies kill your pets instead of you, but other professions can survive as well, with good positioning and timing of their skills. In a perfect scenario, being tanky at the expense of less damage is not a good idea.

Just try to use an elementalist and you will see the very noticeable difference in damage. If you can position yourself as to constantly deal damage without dodging all the time and interrupting your own casts, you will deal significantly more damage than with the necro.

Aenesthesia.1697:

echoeagle.5439:

I love them, I got all the minions with death and blood magic and enemies never even touch me. Maybe in pvp they suck cuz players are smart enough to ignore the minions but I think its really awesome playing with them

Necros deal subpar damage (in ideal situations). You are glad that enemies kill your pets instead of you, but other professions can survive as well, with good positioning and timing of their skills. In a perfect scenario, being tanky at the expense of less damage is not a good idea.

Just try to use an elementalist and you will see the very noticeable difference in damage. If you can position yourself as to constantly deal damage without dodging all the time and interrupting your own casts, you will deal significantly more damage than with the necro.

Really ?… You seem pretty sure of that… which means it shouldn’t be too difficult for you to back that up with some non-icebow footage now would it ?

If you really want a contest… tell you what…
Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman…

You can even use the icebow at the other fights, except for the Bloomhunger, because he is fat…
So… you do the damage, you add it up, you divide by the time of the fight and you post for everyone here to see, and i will do the same.

What do you say my friend ?

Nemesis.8593:

If you really want a contest… tell you what…
Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman…

That would prove nothing. Well, if I, using an elementalist, wich is like my fourth proffesion, manage to beat your dps, then it would really prove something (at least for me), But, as I said, i would need perfect positioning, which i don’t have as i am not that experienced. .

Besides, as i said, this higher dps stuff is just the potential and calculated against non mobile targets that are not trying to kill you while in a real situation, being tanky and maintaining constant dps could yield better results. For example, verdant bring events can be cleaned really fast solo with the necro, while with the elementalist it requires carefully picking the targets in order to avoid being kittened.

Aenesthesia.1697:

Nemesis.8593:

If you really want a contest… tell you what…
Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman…

That would prove nothing. Well, if I, using an elementalist, wich is like my fourth proffesion, manage to beat your dps, then it would really prove something (at least for me), But, as I said, i would need perfect positioning, which i don’t have as i am not that experienced. .

Besides, as i said, this higher dps stuff is just the potential and calculated against non mobile targets that are not trying to kill you while in a real situation, being tanky and maintaining constant dps could yield better results. For example, verdant bring events can be cleaned really fast solo with the necro, while with the elementalist it requires carefully picking the targets in order to avoid being kittened.

Ohhh… but it would prove soooo much.

I do not understand your previous statement though, considering what you just said now.

Nemesis.8593:

Aenesthesia.1697:

Nemesis.8593:

If you really want a contest… tell you what…
Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman…

That would prove nothing. Well, if I, using an elementalist, wich is like my fourth proffesion, manage to beat your dps, then it would really prove something (at least for me), But, as I said, i would need perfect positioning, which i don’t have as i am not that experienced. .

Besides, as i said, this higher dps stuff is just the potential and calculated against non mobile targets that are not trying to kill you while in a real situation, being tanky and maintaining constant dps could yield better results. For example, verdant bring events can be cleaned really fast solo with the necro, while with the elementalist it requires carefully picking the targets in order to avoid being kittened.

Ohhh… but it would prove soooo much.

I do not understand your previous statement though, considering what you just said now.

Actually, it would prove very little other then allowing him to state something along the lines of “On thursday the 12th of november 2015 I had higher DPS on 1 kill of Bloomhunger with my necromancer then on 1 kill of Bloomhunger with my elementalist.” Or the other way around, but judging from his statement that he is not as experienced with his elementalist doing more DPS with his necromancer could be are more likely outcome.

And while such a statement might be true and accurate it does not say anything about whether or not what profession actually does more DPS. There are too many random variables to make statements about balance based on simply a case to case comparison. You would need a far greater sample size to achieve such a thing which would be extremely time consuming. Which why spreadsheets and calculations and statistics would be able to present far more useful data in a much less time.

Ugh. Math.

So long as I survive the fight and see lots and lots of things dying fairly quickly, math can go hang.

Xephz.3185:

Nemesis.8593:

Aenesthesia.1697:

Nemesis.8593:

If you really want a contest… tell you what…
Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman…

That would prove nothing. Well, if I, using an elementalist, wich is like my fourth proffesion, manage to beat your dps, then it would really prove something (at least for me), But, as I said, i would need perfect positioning, which i don’t have as i am not that experienced. .

Besides, as i said, this higher dps stuff is just the potential and calculated against non mobile targets that are not trying to kill you while in a real situation, being tanky and maintaining constant dps could yield better results. For example, verdant bring events can be cleaned really fast solo with the necro, while with the elementalist it requires carefully picking the targets in order to avoid being kittened.

Ohhh… but it would prove soooo much.

I do not understand your previous statement though, considering what you just said now.

Actually, it would prove very little other then allowing him to state something along the lines of “On thursday the 12th of november 2015 I had higher DPS on 1 kill of Bloomhunger with my necromancer then on 1 kill of Bloomhunger with my elementalist.” Or the other way around, but judging from his statement that he is not as experienced with his elementalist doing more DPS with his necromancer could be are more likely outcome.

And while such a statement might be true and accurate it does not say anything about whether or not what profession actually does more DPS. There are too many random variables to make statements about balance based on simply a case to case comparison. You would need a far greater sample size to achieve such a thing which would be extremely time consuming. Which why spreadsheets and calculations and statistics would be able to present far more useful data in a much less time.

You are wrong… on all accounts.
How little people understand yet they believe they know enough to give advice or contradict.
My friend… it’s not even about the comparison between classes…

Until one of you does this… you’ll continue to believe that spreadsheets actually mean something.

… you don’t even have to tell me the results, “just do it”.
You’ll thank me later.

Nemesis.8593:

Aenesthesia.1697:

Nemesis.8593:

If you really want a contest… tell you what…
Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman…

That would prove nothing. Well, if I, using an elementalist, wich is like my fourth proffesion, manage to beat your dps, then it would really prove something (at least for me), But, as I said, i would need perfect positioning, which i don’t have as i am not that experienced. .

Besides, as i said, this higher dps stuff is just the potential and calculated against non mobile targets that are not trying to kill you while in a real situation, being tanky and maintaining constant dps could yield better results. For example, verdant bring events can be cleaned really fast solo with the necro, while with the elementalist it requires carefully picking the targets in order to avoid being kittened.

Ohhh… but it would prove soooo much.

I do not understand your previous statement though, considering what you just said now.

Yea, it would prove who’s the better player, not who’s running the better build…

If you want to test builds with him, let him kill bloomhunger first, while using your dps-meter-improvisation, with the class he’s experienced in (ele if I understood it correctly). Then give him your build for necro, give him time and help him to learn it, and then take his time on bloomhunger on your build again.
At least that would level the playerskill used on that build.

Or – you know – you could use a spreadsheet comparison right away and save a lot of time while coming up with more accurate comparison between builds as well.
For other encounters you could even factor in (irremovable) protection on the boss, his actual toughness value, invulnerability uptime, how often (if ever) he condi-clears, his condi-reduction/immunities…
A spreadsheet can be as flexible as the creator wants it to be, so you even can let it reflect every single boss in the game (something that’s not unlikely to come up for raids). You could actually contribute something useful instead of challenging random people to promote your youtube channel (where such clips surely would be hosted on^^).

Nemesis.8593:

Aenesthesia.1697:

echoeagle.5439:

I love them, I got all the minions with death and blood magic and enemies never even touch me. Maybe in pvp they suck cuz players are smart enough to ignore the minions but I think its really awesome playing with them

Necros deal subpar damage (in ideal situations). You are glad that enemies kill your pets instead of you, but other professions can survive as well, with good positioning and timing of their skills. In a perfect scenario, being tanky at the expense of less damage is not a good idea.

Just try to use an elementalist and you will see the very noticeable difference in damage. If you can position yourself as to constantly deal damage without dodging all the time and interrupting your own casts, you will deal significantly more damage than with the necro.

Really ?… You seem pretty sure of that… which means it shouldn’t be too difficult for you to back that up with some non-icebow footage now would it ?

If you really want a contest… tell you what…
Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman…

You can even use the icebow at the other fights, except for the Bloomhunger, because he is fat…
So… you do the damage, you add it up, you divide by the time of the fight and you post for everyone here to see, and i will do the same.

What do you say my friend ?

there is plenty of evidence supporting what this guy said. Can you prove it what you are saying?

Nemesis.8593:

My friend… it’s not even about the comparison between classes…

So you openly admits it’s a popularity & skill contest?
Wow, didn’t expected you to be this honest…

I’m not going to acknowledge the flame war.

Anyway, Necromancers are not bad anymore.

Projectile Blocks: They got projectile block on Corrosive Poison Cloud and Reaper Shroud #2.

Blindspam: Nightfall.

Breakbars: Necromancers can break a breakbar like no one’s b****.

Bigger DPS for longer boss fights: Gravedigger spam.

Boon Corruption: Useful for certain Mistlock Instabilities. (Such as one of the Mai Trin fractals)

Condi Meta: The Necromancer’s ability to spread conditions puts it in a unique place in the new FoTM Condi meta.

Nemesis.8593:

Xephz.3185:

Nemesis.8593:

Aenesthesia.1697:

Nemesis.8593:

If you really want a contest… tell you what…
Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman…

That would prove nothing. Well, if I, using an elementalist, wich is like my fourth proffesion, manage to beat your dps, then it would really prove something (at least for me), But, as I said, i would need perfect positioning, which i don’t have as i am not that experienced. .

Besides, as i said, this higher dps stuff is just the potential and calculated against non mobile targets that are not trying to kill you while in a real situation, being tanky and maintaining constant dps could yield better results. For example, verdant bring events can be cleaned really fast solo with the necro, while with the elementalist it requires carefully picking the targets in order to avoid being kittened.

Ohhh… but it would prove soooo much.

I do not understand your previous statement though, considering what you just said now.

Actually, it would prove very little other then allowing him to state something along the lines of “On thursday the 12th of november 2015 I had higher DPS on 1 kill of Bloomhunger with my necromancer then on 1 kill of Bloomhunger with my elementalist.” Or the other way around, but judging from his statement that he is not as experienced with his elementalist doing more DPS with his necromancer could be are more likely outcome.

And while such a statement might be true and accurate it does not say anything about whether or not what profession actually does more DPS. There are too many random variables to make statements about balance based on simply a case to case comparison. You would need a far greater sample size to achieve such a thing which would be extremely time consuming. Which why spreadsheets and calculations and statistics would be able to present far more useful data in a much less time.

You are wrong… on all accounts.
How little people understand yet they believe they know enough to give advice or contradict.
My friend… it’s not even about the comparison between classes…

Until one of you does this… you’ll continue to believe that spreadsheets actually mean something.

… you don’t even have to tell me the results, “just do it”.
You’ll thank me later.

Could you explain to me why I am wrong? And what have I misunderstood? I appreciate any feedback about my thoughts but it would help me if you could be a little more concrete.

The way you speak by using sentences such as “My friend, ..” and “You’ll thank me later” could be perceived by others as such that you are looking down on them. It might help maintain polite discussion if sentences such as those would be left out since they do not really add to the discussion.

Nemesis.8593:

Ohhh… but it would prove soooo much.

I do not understand your previous statement though, considering what you just said now.

It would prove you are better with the necromancer than me with the ele, but i don’t need to send you a video for that, i assume it’s that way as i am not that experienced with the ele.

You didn’t understand my previous statement. Period. I used the words ‘perfect scenario’ or ‘ideal situations’ or something like that. I was referring to spreadsheets, which don’t account for real fights and you having to survive in order to keep kicking kitten . There are some fights that come close to being a perfect situation (dungeon bosses that die in no time)

To the people saying you need the spreadsheet in order to make a fair comparison between professions, i say no. The spreadsheet helps to know which stats to chose given a rotation you know you can keep, or help you realize that lich form is better than gravedigger spam, and things like that, but you cannot compare two professions using that info, because you don’t know how close to 100% each profession can be played by an average player.

Arantheal.7396:

Nemesis.8593:

My friend… it’s not even about the comparison between classes…

So you openly admits it’s a popularity & skill contest?
Wow, didn’t expected you to be this honest…

@Xephz.3185 … as you can plainly see by the above comment, a lot of people continue to refuse my claims even when i have backed them up with actual video proof, while continuing to provide misleading information.

There are many who already realized what has happened and agree with me, even Goku… the “RIP Nemesis” Goku, contacted me yesterday and we had a nice long chat.

But the others… until they verify for themselves what the REAL DPS values are they will never understand just how meaningless the spreadsheets really are.

It’s not about a popularity contents, it’s not about class comparison… it’s about the spreadsheets and all conclusions drawn from them.

You’ve saw recently DnT promoted 18-19K DPS necromancer build via spreadsheets… wrong again… the meta is changing alright… from some bad builds which relied on icebow to work, to other bad builds…

Not necessarily bad… just wrongly advertised… it’s like me telling you guys to paint the walls with your hands, or cut some bread with a screwdriver or put on makeup with a bottle of champagne… and so on…

And of course there’s already “necromancer is not so bad anymore… we have gravedigger…” everyone will try to use gravedigger everywhere now, end up doing 2K DPS at times… just like those 6x icebows flame shaman “speed run”, while thinking they do 18K DPS as the spreadsheets claimed.

I have said 100 times already… the math is meaningless, all the conclusions of the math-in-a-void are not to be trusted.

So what do people do ?… make up new conclusions based on math in a void.

That is why i will say again… you guys either acknowledge i am right based on the proof i offered so far, or… do… in your own time…
Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman… and manually calculate your own DPS.
You don’t even have to post your results…

OR… play the game wrong for another 2 years. The choice is yours.

I have done my part even though i shouldn’t have because i ended up getting almost nothing out of this.

Aenesthesia.1697:

Nemesis.8593:

Ohhh… but it would prove soooo much.

I do not understand your previous statement though, considering what you just said now.

It would prove you are better with the necromancer than me with the ele, but i don’t need to send you a video for that, i assume it’s that way as i am not that experienced with the ele.

You didn’t understand my previous statement. Period. I used the words ‘perfect scenario’ or ‘ideal situations’ or something like that. I was referring to spreadsheets, which don’t account for real fights and you having to survive in order to keep kicking kitten .

My second comment goes perfectly well with that: if you can stand in one spot dealing damage without dying, you either have perfect positioning against a stationary target that is ignoring you for some reason, or you are using a spreadsheet….

To the people saying you need the spreadsheet in order to make a fair comparison, i say no. The spreadsheet helps to know which stats to chose given a rotation you know you can keep, or help you realize that lich form is better than gravedigger spam, and things like that.

But comparing to professions that have different mobility, different complexity in their rotation, different cast times, different capacity to soak damage, is completely useless unless the theoretical dps difference between two professions ends up being so big you can assume that you are going to outdps the other guy in every single scenario.

The only fair comparison would be a damage recount. It would stop the meta nonsense, and make people learn how to optimise their damage.

But that is I think the way the spreadsheets should be used; to find the optimal choices in gear, traits, skills, weapons and skill rotations. It should be used to answer the question to how someone playing a necromancer has to play to achieve the maximum possible damage output. Comparison between professions would indeed not be accurate with just the use spreadsheets, but a large difference in damage output could suggest possible imbalances between professions. If the damage output of optimal setups of two professions are calculated and one is shown to have double the damage output of the other, would you think find this problematic?

Nemesis.8593:

Arantheal.7396:

Nemesis.8593:

My friend… it’s not even about the comparison between classes…

So you openly admits it’s a popularity & skill contest?
Wow, didn’t expected you to be this honest…

@Xephz.3185 … as you can plainly see by the above comment, a lot of people continue to refuse my claims even when i have backed them up with actual video proof, while continuing to provide misleading information.

There are many who already realized what has happened and agree with me, even Goku… the “RIP Nemesis” Goku, contacted me yesterday and we had a nice long chat.

But the others… until they verify for themselves what the REAL DPS values are they will never understand just how meaningless the spreadsheets really are.

It’s not about a popularity contents, it’s not about class comparison… it’s about the spreadsheets and all conclusions drawn from them.

You’ve saw recently DnT promoted 18-19K DPS necromancer build via spreadsheets… wrong again… the meta is changing alright… from some bad builds which relied on icebow to work, to other bad builds…

Builds made by math…

And of course there’s a new wave of stuff being promoted “necromancer is in a much better spot right now… we have gravedigger…” everyone will try to use gravedigger everywhere now, end up doing 2K DPS at times… just like those 6x icebows flame shaman “speed run”, while thinking they do 18K DPS.

I have said 100 times already… the math is meaningless, all the conclusions of the math-in-a-void are not to be trusted.

So what do people do ?… make up new conclusions…

That is why i will say again… you guys either take my word for it, or… do… in your own time… Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman… and manually calculate your own DPS.
You don’t even have to post your results…

OR… play the game wrong for another 2 years.

I have done my part even though i shouldn’t have because in the end i got close to nothing out of it.

Would you agree with me that manually calculating the real DPS of a 100 Bloomhunger kills and taking the average of those 100 Bloomhunger kills would be a more accurate representation of someones real DPS at Bloomhunger then of merely manually calculating it for 1 kill?

Is there even a point to this thread anymore?

Mercurias.1826:

Is there even a point to this thread anymore?

I feel like there must be a general election coming up, based on how hard people are campaigning. I just haven’t figured out what office they are running for yet.

In general, math is useful but not end-all, and saying “play another class and you’ll notice the difference” is anecdotal, which happens to be the worst form of evidence.

Aenesthesia.1697:

Necros deal subpar damage (in ideal situations). You are glad that enemies kill your pets instead of you, but other professions can survive as well, with good positioning and timing of their skills. In a perfect scenario, being tanky at the expense of less damage is not a good idea.

Just try to use an elementalist and you will see the very noticeable difference in damage. If you can position yourself as to constantly deal damage without dodging all the time and interrupting your own casts, you will deal significantly more damage than with the necro.

What do you base that on? Not trying to be an kitten , I genuinely want to know. For example it could be your own experience, tests on youtube, spreadsheets e.t.c.

Mercurias.1826:

Is there even a point to this thread anymore?

I think the discussion between Spoj and Nemesis and the people around them is interesting enough for this thread to have a point. Exploring the perception of the community about the viability of the Necromancer in various aspects of the game and how this perception came to be has raised a lot of questions. Both “groups” seem to offer different approaches and conclusions and the discussion of these is I think valid and adds to the overall understanding of the Necromancer.

Citronvand.2837:

Aenesthesia.1697:

Necros deal subpar damage (in ideal situations). You are glad that enemies kill your pets instead of you, but other professions can survive as well, with good positioning and timing of their skills. In a perfect scenario, being tanky at the expense of less damage is not a good idea.

Just try to use an elementalist and you will see the very noticeable difference in damage. If you can position yourself as to constantly deal damage without dodging all the time and interrupting your own casts, you will deal significantly more damage than with the necro.

What do you base that on? Not trying to be an kitten , I genuinely want to know. For example it could be your own experience, tests on youtube, spreadsheets e.t.c.

I base it on spreadhseets, and countless dungeon runs with the necro and some with the elementalist.

But i am not saying that elementalist is better than necro 100% of the time. In some fights, you spend most of the time dodging with the ele while the necro keeps kicking butt.

In some fights, the boss is constantly on the move and staff ele is worthless (don’t know why anyone would take staff ele for said fights, but there you go)

But the main reason people think necros are subpar, is because the spreadsheets said so, at least until HOT got released (by the way, i am pretty sure in the spreadhseets they never calculate lich from dps, while for some fights having 100% lich uptime is perfectly feasible)

Xephz.3185:

But that is I think the way the spreadsheets should be used; to find the optimal choices in gear, traits, skills, weapons and skill rotations. It should be used to answer the question to how someone playing a necromancer has to play to achieve the maximum possible damage output. Comparison between professions would indeed not be accurate with just the use spreadsheets, but a large difference in damage output could suggest possible imbalances between professions. If the damage output of optimal setups of two professions are calculated and one is shown to have double the damage output of the other, would you think find this problematic?

Yes, i agree with you. Having your theoretical maximum dps be 50% of some other profession’s maximum, would imply there’s a severe imbalance, unless you could reach your 100% easily with the other profession not being able to survive the encounter or not reaching even 50% of its potential. (and even in that case would be a serious imbalance, as the inefficient profession would still have a great edge in bursting phases)

Cogbyrn.7283:

Mercurias.1826:

Is there even a point to this thread anymore?

I feel like there must be a general election coming up, based on how hard people are campaigning. I just haven’t figured out what office they are running for yet.

In general, math is useful but not end-all, and saying “play another class and you’ll notice the difference” is anecdotal, which happens to be the worst form of evidence.

Nemesis is campaigning for the spot as “THE top-Necromancer” ofc, which spoj unjustly took away from him, haven’t you watched his videos?

Xephz.3185:

Nemesis.8593:

Arantheal.7396:

Nemesis.8593:

My friend… it’s not even about the comparison between classes…

So you openly admits it’s a popularity & skill contest?
Wow, didn’t expected you to be this honest…

@Xephz.3185 … as you can plainly see by the above comment, a lot of people continue to refuse my claims even when i have backed them up with actual video proof, while continuing to provide misleading information.

There are many who already realized what has happened and agree with me, even Goku… the “RIP Nemesis” Goku, contacted me yesterday and we had a nice long chat.

But the others… until they verify for themselves what the REAL DPS values are they will never understand just how meaningless the spreadsheets really are.

It’s not about a popularity contents, it’s not about class comparison… it’s about the spreadsheets and all conclusions drawn from them.

You’ve saw recently DnT promoted 18-19K DPS necromancer build via spreadsheets… wrong again… the meta is changing alright… from some bad builds which relied on icebow to work, to other bad builds…

Builds made by math…

And of course there’s a new wave of stuff being promoted “necromancer is in a much better spot right now… we have gravedigger…” everyone will try to use gravedigger everywhere now, end up doing 2K DPS at times… just like those 6x icebows flame shaman “speed run”, while thinking they do 18K DPS.

I have said 100 times already… the math is meaningless, all the conclusions of the math-in-a-void are not to be trusted.

So what do people do ?… make up new conclusions…

That is why i will say again… you guys either take my word for it, or… do… in your own time… Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman… and manually calculate your own DPS.
You don’t even have to post your results…

OR… play the game wrong for another 2 years.

I have done my part even though i shouldn’t have because in the end i got close to nothing out of it.

Would you agree with me that manually calculating the real DPS of a 100 Bloomhunger kills and taking the average of those 100 Bloomhunger kills would be a more accurate representation of someones real DPS at Bloomhunger then of merely manually calculating it for 1 kill?

Yes… of course…

However it’s not about the DPS at bloomhunger, but about the major differences between REAL DPS values of the same build with the same damage rotation… in different scenarios.

Brazil and Narc both had 9K to 11K+ DPS at Bloomhunger based on the number of Icebows used.
Brazil’s DPS dropped down to 5K in ascalonian… and 2K at grawl shaman.

Now… even if it’s 3 to 6K in ascalonian on average and 1 to 3K at grawl shaman on average…
the differences in DPS of the same build, played by the same person… with the same team comp… based on encounter, are so great… that it literally renders all math spreadsheets meaningless even for comparison purposes.

At grawl shaman you do more with a condition build if you play with your left foot then you would with a melee zerker, in a premade group… at Brazil’s skill level…

Will the spreadsheets ever give out such conclusions ?… Will they ever show the mind-blowing variations in DPS based on encounter ?

All they give out now is unachievable static values which serve absolutely no real purpose other then self advertise, and have confused the entire Guild Wars 2 community for over 2 years…

I have said these things since this whole mess started and received an insane amount of ridicule for it…

I knew that if i am ever going to continue making guides to builds that actually work without icebow, and advertise real DPS numbers in them… without people going “pffff… so small… sinister engineer does 20K”… i must first break the false “berserker meta”.

I have done that… yet some people still refuse to knowledge my real DPS numbers and the conclusions drawn from them.

Well then… those people should make their own tests, draw their own conclusions… i’ll just be waiting here quietly for when they do… just to see what they have to say then.

Also, i wish to apologize for my previous… blunt… reply, it is not always easy to distinguish between who is actually asking a question and who is just trolling.

Nemesis.8593:

Xephz.3185:

Nemesis.8593:

Arantheal.7396:

Nemesis.8593:

My friend… it’s not even about the comparison between classes…

So you openly admits it’s a popularity & skill contest?
Wow, didn’t expected you to be this honest…

@Xephz.3185 … as you can plainly see by the above comment, a lot of people continue to refuse my claims even when i have backed them up with actual video proof, while continuing to provide misleading information.

There are many who already realized what has happened and agree with me, even Goku… the “RIP Nemesis” Goku, contacted me yesterday and we had a nice long chat.

But the others… until they verify for themselves what the REAL DPS values are they will never understand just how meaningless the spreadsheets really are.

It’s not about a popularity contents, it’s not about class comparison… it’s about the spreadsheets and all conclusions drawn from them.

You’ve saw recently DnT promoted 18-19K DPS necromancer build via spreadsheets… wrong again… the meta is changing alright… from some bad builds which relied on icebow to work, to other bad builds…

Builds made by math…

And of course there’s a new wave of stuff being promoted “necromancer is in a much better spot right now… we have gravedigger…” everyone will try to use gravedigger everywhere now, end up doing 2K DPS at times… just like those 6x icebows flame shaman “speed run”, while thinking they do 18K DPS.

I have said 100 times already… the math is meaningless, all the conclusions of the math-in-a-void are not to be trusted.

So what do people do ?… make up new conclusions…

That is why i will say again… you guys either take my word for it, or… do… in your own time… Bloomhunger, Captain Ashym, Old Tom and last Champion Grawl Shaman… and manually calculate your own DPS.
You don’t even have to post your results…

OR… play the game wrong for another 2 years.

I have done my part even though i shouldn’t have because in the end i got close to nothing out of it.

Would you agree with me that manually calculating the real DPS of a 100 Bloomhunger kills and taking the average of those 100 Bloomhunger kills would be a more accurate representation of someones real DPS at Bloomhunger then of merely manually calculating it for 1 kill?

Yes… of course…

However it’s not about the DPS at bloomhunger, but about the major differences between REAL DPS values of the same build with the same damage rotation… in different scenarios.

Brazil and Narc both had 9K to 11K+ DPS at Bloomhunger based on the number of Icebows used.
Brazil’s DPS dropped down to 5K in ascalonian… and 2K at grawl shaman.

Now… even if it’s 3 to 6K in ascalonian on average and 1 to 3K at grawl shaman on average…
the differences in DPS of the same build, played by the same person… with the same team comp… based on encounter, are so great… that it literally renders all math spreadsheets meaningless even for comparison purposes.

At grawl shaman you do more with a condition build if you play with your left foot then you would with a melee zerker, in a premade group… at Brazil’s skill level…

Will the spreadsheets ever give out such conclusions ?… Will they ever show the mind-blowing variations in DPS based on encounter ?

All they give out now is unachievable static values which serve absolutely no real purpose other then self advertise, and have confused the entire Guild Wars 2 community for over 2 years…

I have said these things since this whole mess started and received an insane amount of ridicule for it…

I knew that if i am ever going to continue making guides to builds that actually work without icebow, and advertise real DPS numbers in them… without people going “pffff… so small… sinister engineer does 20K”… i must first break the false “berserker meta”.

I have done that… yet some people still refuse to knowledge my real DPS numbers and the conclusions drawn from them.

Well then… those people should make their own tests, draw their own conclusions… i’ll just be waiting here quietly for when they do… just to see what they have to say then.

Also, i wish to apologize for my previous… blunt… reply, it is not always easy to distinguish between who is actually asking a question and who is just trolling.

I do not think spreadsheets can give an accurate conclusion on a per encounter basis merely by looking at the maximum possible theoretical DPS and making a comparison between professions at those maximums and drawing conclusions for that. One would for example need to take into the time spent running away, dodging and doing other things that do not involve DPS. This of course brings up a few questions I myself do not have an answer to such as:

Is there a difference between for example a condition necromancer and a berserker necromancer in the time lost doing things other then dealing damage. And if so, is this difference large enough for a condition necromancer to deal more damage during the encounter then a berserker necromancer.

It would be way too time consuming to gather data of the time lost from doing other things then dealing damage in order to make accurate comparisons between different builds of a same profession or even between different professions. Especially since lost DPS time in itself consists of multiple factors such as dodging and player variables such as focus, skill and experience.

Spreadsheets can perhaps help to clear up some of these questions (For example build A does 18k theoretical DPS and build B does 12k theoretical DPS would mean that build B needs to have atleast 50% more DPS time to be better then build A. Such things could be evaluated through recordings and such but as said before its rather time consuming).

I suppose this is why spreadsheets are used and why Bloomhunger is used as a hallmark (since it has the least DPS downtime of all bosses). It is quick and those who understand the limitations of spreadsheets can make use of it. You are right of couse in that you cannot simply translate spreadsheet DPS into different practical environments but it’s use shouldnt be disregarded either.

Xephz.3185:

Spreadsheets can perhaps help to clear up some of these questions (For example build A does 18k theoretical DPS and build B does 12k theoretical DPS would mean that build B needs to have atleast 50% more DPS time to be better then build A. Such things could be evaluated through recordings and such but as said before its rather time consuming).

I think spreadsheets can help form a hypothesis. But then you should test that hypothesis and see if it is actually accurate in reality. Drawing conclusions directly from spreadsheets can get messy as we’ve seen. There are so many variables to consider, it is not just your own personal DPS and uptime, it is the groups DPS. What if one get downed but thanks to your ritual of life and last rites plus that you sacrificed personal DPS for more tankyness you can go in, in the thick of it, ress your pal and come out alive. What if your build allows other builds/classes/players to have higher DPS uptime.

It is so easy for people to draw conclusions when they just compare 2 numbers. 2 is higher than 1 therefore… When reality is much more complex. I think we as a community need to move away from this mindset of numbers vs numbers and focus more on strength and weaknesses of a certain build, how hard is it to use the build for the player, how is the support, what synergies does it have with other builds/classes e.t.c e.t.c. instead of a HUUUGE focus on personal DPS.

Nemesis you keep missing the point. Were not trying to compare real dps. Were simply finding what deals more damage. You can factor in as many extra variables as you want to make the calculation more accurate if you want. But you dont really need to do that to work out which classes have the best dps skills and overall best dps.

This is also why i often do coefficient per second calculations alongside dps calculations. Because they are simply an average weighted skill use per second. Which is fairly accurate for quick comparisons. Only problem with them is you also need to factor in trait modifiers. Because those can make a lower cps class do more damage than a higher cps class which has less modifiers.

Prime example of this is the necro. Necro has much less damage modifiers than most classes. But it has on average high cps than most classes. But the modifiers shift the difference in favour of other classes most of the time (probably not so much with reaper).

Citronvand.2837:

Xephz.3185:

Spreadsheets can perhaps help to clear up some of these questions (For example build A does 18k theoretical DPS and build B does 12k theoretical DPS would mean that build B needs to have atleast 50% more DPS time to be better then build A. Such things could be evaluated through recordings and such but as said before its rather time consuming).

I think spreadsheets can help form a hypothesis. But then you should test that hypothesis and see if it is actually accurate in reality. Drawing conclusions directly from spreadsheets can get messy as we’ve seen. There are so many variables to consider, it is not just your own personal DPS and uptime, it is the groups DPS. What if one get downed but thanks to your ritual of life and last rites plus that you sacrificed personal DPS for more tankyness you can go in, in the thick of it, ress your pal and come out alive. What if your build allows other builds/classes/players to have higher DPS uptime.

It is so easy for people to draw conclusions when they just compare 2 numbers. 2 is higher than 1 therefore… When reality is much more complex. I think we as a community need to move away from this mindset of numbers vs numbers and focus more on strength and weaknesses of a certain build, how hard is it to use the build for the player, how is the support, what synergies does it have with other builds/classes e.t.c e.t.c. instead of a HUUUGE focus on personal DPS.

This is exactly the process i go through. And people should be going through this when using spreadsheets. I use it to get the raw data. Work out what is worth casting for damage and what isnt. Develop a rotation idea. Test it. Re-check it and recalculate. Create variants where you sacrifice certain skills for utility reasons, make decisions based on practicality etc etc.

For example. I calculated that dhuumfire RS camping necro is actually very close if not better for damage than a GS rotation. However that is assuming a very unrealistic rotation and permanent lifeforce. Both of which are unrealistic assumptions. But that calculation was still very important for me to come to my conclusions about GS vs RS.

Today I joined a fractal lvl38, it only had one guy in it (the one who posted it in the lfg) and had the only requirements of “zerk” and “experienced”. As soon as I joined, he insta kicked me and then whispered me that he didnt want to be slowed down by horrible necros and “gl in finding another group”.

People can be really stupid. That’s all I have to say.

JoaoFA.8475:

Today I joined a fractal lvl38, it only had one guy in it (the one who posted it in the lfg) and had the only requirements of “zerk” and “experienced”. As soon as I joined, he insta kicked me and then whispered me that he didnt want to be slowed down by horrible necros and “gl in finding another group”.

People can be really stupid. That’s all I have to say.

Yeah people are pretty awful. Often they don’t even need a justifiable reason to be awful, they just fabricate one because they want to be awful.

I like to jab people like that, and say things such as “At least I know why your group is empty”, and “I didn’t want to repeatedly scrape you up off the floor anyway”.

Nemesis.8593:

I knew that if i am ever going to continue making guides to builds that actually work without icebow, and advertise real DPS numbers in them… without people going “pffff… so small… sinister engineer does 20K”… i must first break the false “berserker meta”.

I have done that…

Except you didn’t.
The meta started experimenting sinister builds & condi-dmg in general as soon as a-net lifted the stack cap & introduced sinister stats.
That was way before you even released your first clip in your trilogy.
And now that they’ve revamped condi-duration into a numeric value, while introducing Viper stats, builds are in a revamp process once again.

You did not cause any of this, if anything you’re being part of that motion, once you actually release builds that are not meant for PvP. Until then you just repeat what we already have known before you came along.
Welp, apart from using a dps calculation model that shows nothing but what you – you alone – will do with a given build.

So, I want you to consider the following points, and tell me if you agree with them, and if you not, tell me why you disagree with them:
-disclaimer, none of these questions care about critical damage at this point. This comes later, to the end.
1.) The game’s engine uses [on the wiki] documented formulas to calculate power & condition damage ingame for each skill / ticking conditions. True or not?
2.) If the toughness values of any given creature are inserted into the power-dmg-formula, it will give out the accurate dmg-range (since weapon-strength is partly RNG) of any given skill, BEFORE applying buffs. True or not?
3.) If that dmg-range is altered by -33%, it accurately reflects the influence of protection on a mob. True or not?
4.) If that dmg-range is altered by +25% it accurately reflects the influence of vulnerability on a mob. True or not?
5.) If the dmg-range of a skill is divided by its full animation duration (pre-cast & aftercast included), added with the full condition-damage (duration x stack.amount), you can determine its Burst dps. True or not?
6.) If its determined burst dps is higher than the dps of your AA, you will prefer to use the burst over the AA. True or not?
7.) If you add the cd of a skill to its pre & aftercast duration, you can determine its full cycle-duration. True or not?
8.) If you know the burst-dps, the full cycle duration & the full animation duration of each skill a class offers, you can engineer a chained segment of burst-skills, while filling the gaps with your hardest hitting, available AA. True or not?

If you do not disagree up until this point, we agree that rotations can be engineered entirely theoretically within a spreadsheet.

9.) It is possible to estimate a boss’ toughness value by hitting him 100 times (or more), calculating the average hit-dmg, and then resolving the – in the wiki documented – dmg formula to give out toughness, while inserting the previously calculated average hit-dmg, the power value of the build used, and the weapon-strength of the used item. Further present toughness can be compensated by increasing the claculated average hit dmg by 33% before inserting it in the resolved dmg-formula. True or not?
10.) If the calculated toughness value gets applicate to the dmg-calculation of any given skill, it will accurately return the true hit-dmg-range of that skill on the same boss ingame (in case of irremovable perma protection, after reducing it by 33%). True or not?

If you agree with me up until here, we agree on raw dps being determinable for each boss specifically, just by a spreadsheet.

11.) All bosses have skills with specific cd’s. True or not?
12.) A dodge takes 0.75 seconds. True or not?
13.) If you identify the skill of a boss that apply greater dmg than you can outheal them, then their overall cd (actual cd + precast + aftercast), determines the time-interval in which you loose 0.75s dps. True or not?
14.) You can calculate the percentile dps loss if you know how often you have to doge within your own rotation. True or not?
15.) Invulnerability-phases of bosses follow a determinable pattern, be it by a given skill-rotation, a HP-trigger, or simply by the cd of the invulnerability-spending skill. True or not?
16.) Group-stuns, like given from the colossus fractal’s final boss can be treated as “invulnerability-phase”. True or not?
17.) The existence of said pattern allows for developing boss-specific formulas that give out the rough percentile vulnerability-time to dmg, which can be used as further, dmg-reducing percentile factor (F.E. determined dmg-uptime is ~50%, so power-dps gets reduced by ~50%). True or not?
18.) The kind of invulnerability is important to note, because some just become completely invulnerable/evade, and others still take hits with zero dmg, allowing for condi-application. True or not?
19.) Because of this behavior, condition dmg & power dmg uptime always must be calculated separately per skill. True or not?
20.) The combined dps loss from dodging & boss invulnerability phases can be utilized to determine your boss-specific dps-uptime. True or not?
21.) Calculating the final dps up until this point with crit-chance, crit-dmg, dmg-modifiers, and crit-related procs allows for accurate, boss-specific results. True or not?

If you agree with me up until this point, we both agree on builds being able to be compared in theoretical, boss-specific scenarios within boss-specific spreadsheets, coming up with dps conclusions that are very close, but still slightly above reality.

The rest-discrepancy to reality is caused by individual player-skill & therefore require mechanical perfection from a player wanting to achieve these numbers. Still the above described methods allow for coming up with builds that not only reflect very realistic numbers, but can be used to analyze a wide range of boss-encounters, without ever recording your dmg ingame (beyond probing the values for this build-process).

So if you (and others) think that this would be a valuable tool for theory-crafting, how about we stop dps-recording builds (and smash our head against each other about who has the best muscle-memory), but start recording boss-behavior to feed this more accurate (and more complex) kind of spreadsheets.

Keep in mind that the presence of healers (or passive healing within a build) influence which boss-attacks might need dodges or not anymore, while cc-caused breakbar stuns increase the dmg uptime directly, due to less dodges per rotation being required.
So when looking away from the individual build, but into the group comp, cc & healing become a lot more valuable as well.

So if you want to be constructive, start working on these spreadsheets, especially since raids will highly profit from a more in-depth analysis (once we know their boss-mechanics ofc).

JoaoFA.8475:

Today I joined a fractal lvl38, it only had one guy in it (the one who posted it in the lfg) and had the only requirements of “zerk” and “experienced”. As soon as I joined, he insta kicked me and then whispered me that he didnt want to be slowed down by horrible necros and “gl in finding another group”.

People can be really stupid. That’s all I have to say.

Impossible…

Bawb and a few others said no one was kick necromancers, Spoj here is saying necromancer is so much better now because we have the “gravedigger” !

The fake math ruined the community’s perception on the class, i am trying to fix that by exposing what the math actually is… as in fake… and some necromancer players hate me for it.

Well… this is disappointing…

Nemesis.8593:

JoaoFA.8475:

Today I joined a fractal lvl38, it only had one guy in it (the one who posted it in the lfg) and had the only requirements of “zerk” and “experienced”. As soon as I joined, he insta kicked me and then whispered me that he didnt want to be slowed down by horrible necros and “gl in finding another group”.

People can be really stupid. That’s all I have to say.

Impossible…

Bawb and a few others said no one was kick necromancers, Spoj here is saying necromancer is so much better now because we have the “gravedigger” !

The fake math ruined the community’s perception on the class, i am trying to fix that by exposing what the math actually is… as in fake… and some necromancer players hate me for it.

Well… this is disappointing…

To be fair, I think they’re more angry with you because of the rude and confrontational manner in which you deliver your points. You’re trying to stir up controversy, so you really can’t complain when you get what you want.

Mythbusting is at its most effective when it’s either dispassionate or charmingly humorous. If you put people on the defensive, they’re going to dig in their heels and push back regardless of whether your math checks out. You’ve made them want to disagree with you.

Dont even need to go on the defensive when hes completely missing the purpose of spreadsheets and trying to claim theres some hidden agenda. Im happy to keep repeating myself until he understands. But it seems its beyond him.

@Nemesis, are you aware that by saying people have been promoting “fake math” and “lie to the community” you are accusing them of deliberately using false or plucked out of the air values in their calculations? Have you actually ever bothered to check e.g. one of dekeyz spreadsheets (they are publicly available on the dnt forums) to back up what you are constantly claiming? If she comes up with certain DPS numbers and she did all her math right, it is not “fake math” even if you wont see numbers that high in game. Don’t you see that calling people liars because you don’t seem to be able to put these numbers into perspective is a problem?

Secondly, why are you so stubborn and don’t acknowledge that some people, including me, have a problem with how you advertise your DPS numbers. I’m not saying your numbers are wrong, but they are not what you make them out to be. You say those are “real DPS” numbers and imply that they are more applicable than purely theoretical values, but they are simply not. What you provide is anecdotal evidence, an isolated instance of DPS done by a certain individual in one particular instance of a boss fight in a certain group comp, a “case study” as I have called it previously on this thread. Nothing more and nothing less. These numbers of yours do not somehow devalue the numbers calculated via the theoretical approach, they simply do not compare.

spoj.9672:

Nemesis you keep missing the point. Were not trying to compare real dps. Were simply finding what deals more damage.

Wait what ?… ohhh… what deals more damage in the mystical land of the void… where unicorns, fake math, and 25K DPS without time warp builds exist.

I am missing the point… yet you fail to realize we do not fight in your imagination but in the actual game, where real DPS does matter… cause you know… it’s real…

You’re trying hard to get people to use that melee reaper zerker necro with dhuumfire in raids which will probably get them to do 3K DPS for the whole 15 seconds which they will be alive.

But hey… go on… it’s not me the people will be angry at when that happens.
If i ever want to troll someone… i will recommend that build to them.

Im convinced you cant read now.

Nemesis.8593:

You’re trying hard to get people to use that melee reaper zerker necro with dhuumfire in raids which will probably get them to do 3K DPS for the whole 15 seconds which they will be alive.

Thank you for making me lose my sides

That’s the thing though, people use theory dps to talk about a class on the dps tier list. 25k Rev vs 14k necro dps, sure you can say those values aren’t reasonable and it’s just theoretical but then when it comes to in game values are you implying that necro deals 56% of the damage a rev will deal in most in game situations? Thats why I was saying I think the spreadsheets are flawed, most other games with meters use the spreadsheets as a base then calculate real in game numbers to determine where classes actually fall on a list. I haven’t seen that for this game, everything seems to stop at the spreadsheet part and then it gets advertised.

I made the mistake of thinking GW2 was like those other games with in game evidence to back up the numbers, which is why I think there is such a big fall out on this topic. Especially since the spreadsheet numbers are so far away from in game values, and they don’t accurately show how one class will perform compared to another overall.

[edit] Furthermore, in other games when people say “X class deals Y DPS” I usually get really close to that value, even if it’s assuming perfect rotations. In this game I see people say values and the real value is all over the place.

Nemesis.8593:

You’re trying hard to get people to use that melee reaper zerker necro with dhuumfire in raids which will probably get them to do 3K DPS for the whole 15 seconds which they will be alive.

I have been playing as a melee reaper with berserker gear and dhuumfire traited for a while now and have had no issues whatsoever in any content to stay alive and keep damage on a boss (though the reactor fractal boss makes you improvise a lot, but even in this case I find I do more damage over the duration of the fight in the melee reaper setup then for example just whacking at it from range with an axe for the whole fight or switching to a condition setup . The only times I have had issues is when I was distracted or unfocused and that has nothing to do with necromancers, other professions, the meta as it was or currently is or any ingame factor at all.

I do not get the impression from Spoj that he thinks that spreadsheet DPS is actually achievable ingame and have trouble understanding why you would think he does.
Also I do not think he is creating “fake math” but I think what you mean is that the numbers represented by spreadsheets do not translate to reality, which of course is true. But that does not make the math wrong or fake.