Guild Wars 2

@pendragon.

I never said i removed all the conditions. I remove the most damaging one such as bleed stacks and poison

A traited warhorn removes all movement impairment effects with 1 skill and 1 extra condition and grants near perma vigor. Basically every 15 seconds i have 2 condition removal and all movement impairment effects practically do not exist

The rest of the condition damage can easily be migrated by my heal. My condition removal was limited. Oh well, there is cleansing ire but anet bugged my build -_-

vicious.5683:

No, you are wrong(lol). Guardian in general have a lot of blocks> high defense, but low damage.

That depends on the build, guardians can deal some pretty high damage if they want to. However, this doesn’t mean less access to boons. It only means they will have less vitality and toughness.

Kravick.4906:

flow.6043:

Many have said it already in this thread: other classes don’t have as effective cleanses as the necro. At some point other classes will get overwhelmed with conditions without being able to do anything about it.

This is what I don’t understand when people whine about this. If a necro is incapable of overwhelming condition clears, a necro will never do any damage. The opposing class will always kill the necromancer.

Are you saying that you want the necromancer to never be able to deal their damage with conditions? Because that is exactly what you and everyone else are saying right now.

If conditions get cleared that doesn’t mean that they didn’t do any damage up until then.
On the other hand, if they can’t be cleansed at all then all it takes to kill a thief is 2-3 Marks of Blood, or 1 Blood is Power.
Conditions on skills are balanced around being cleansed at some point, they aren’t meant to stay on a player for their entire duration.

So @overwhelming condi clears: the concept itself is of course good, it fits the necro playstlye and worked fairly well before the patch. But with burning this became so powerful that it’s not a challenge anymore. Other classes just can’t keep up with it, so there’s no back and forth like it used to be.

I agree that our damage might have been in need of a buff, but torment alone does this job pretty well.

I think the reason Necromancers are suddenly viewed as “OP” is primarily because the last patch shook up the meta. We all knew going in that the Necromancers were going to be buffed in some capacity and many non-Necromancers were anticipating this; they made a profession switch to reap the benefits of playing a profession generally rarely encountered previously … fotm style player driven self fulfilling prophecy.

As far as balance goes, both sides speak the truth … there is a great deal of sudden complaining about what was hardly impacted by the patch, and yet there have been tweaks that have elevated the profession above its prior capacity.

I personally think the meta still needs some time to settle as people research and implement counters. In my experience thus far, Necromancers are taken down not by superior condition cleanse (that is fighting a losing battle … and based on the offense priority of the game rightly so) but by maintaining superior ranged damage or cc locking/controlling the Necromancer … especially with coordinated spikes. The long cast times of Necromancer abilities just beg for interruption counters.

loseridoit.2756:

Troll.4237:

I can almost guarantee that you have never played a necro in-depth with what you just said and if that’s the case that makes you a hypocrite.

i can guarantee you that you never play against a necro with a class that has limited condition removal

i admit i dont play a necro but i played against them. I am answering your question

why are necros viewed op

Yes, if your profession has limited escape mechanism and poor condition removal, you will probably have a hard time against them. If you’re playing a warrior, well, that’s unfortunate. Warriors need a lot of help and nerfing necromancers isn’t the solution.

However, that’s the fundamental premise of profession-based gameplay. Some professions/specs will be a hard counter to others. Unless you’re a pema-stealth thief, of course, since they don’t have any counters.

Up until now, most professions could effectively ignore condition removal and spec for other things – more damage, more mobility, etc, and were relatively safe. If you do this now and you run into a necromancer, you’ll probably lose. Necromancers are no longer cannon fodder like they once were.

What I do find surprising is the amount of crying over necromancers and not over scepter/dagger elementalists. The last patch gave them insane burst damage – enough to basically kill an opponent in under 5 seconds, but they still have lots of healing and escapes. Yet, I don’t see the outcry there.

Is it because elementalists have been overpowered so long everyone has simply grown accustomed to it?

Allarius.5670:

I think the reason Necromancers are suddenly viewed as “OP” is primarily because the last patch shook up the meta. We all knew going in that the Necromancers were going to be buffed in some capacity and many non-Necromancers were anticipating this; they made a profession switch to reap the benefits of playing a profession generally rarely encountered previously … fotm style player driven self fulfilling prophecy.

As far as balance goes, both sides speak the truth … there is a great deal of sudden complaining about what was hardly impacted by the patch, and yet there have been tweaks that have elevated the profession above its prior capacity.

I personally think the meta still needs some time to settle as people research and implement counters. In my experience thus far, Necromancers are taken down not by superior condition cleanse (that is fighting a losing battle … and based on the offense priority of the game rightly so) but by maintaining superior ranged damage or cc locking/controlling the Necromancer … especially with coordinated spikes. The long cast times of Necromancer abilities just beg for interruption counters.

I agree with this whole-heartedly! When I read the patch notes, I read about the necromancer buffs and thought to myself, “wow lots of new damage output”. Then I read about all the buffs to mesmer interrupts and counterplay and thought, “and there’s the counter spec for necros”.

Thedenofsin.7340:

However, that’s the fundamental premise of profession-based gameplay. Some professions/specs will be a hard counter to others. Unless you’re a pema-stealth thief, of course, since they don’t have any counters.

Up until now, most professions could effectively ignore condition removal and spec for other things – more damage, more mobility, etc, and were relatively safe. If you do this now and you run into a necromancer, you’ll probably lose. Necromancers are no longer cannon fodder like they once were.

What I do find surprising is the amount of crying over necromancers and not over scepter/dagger elementalists. The last patch gave them insane burst damage – enough to basically kill an opponent in under 5 seconds, but they still have lots of healing and escapes. Yet, I don’t see the outcry there.

Is it because elementalists have been overpowered so long everyone has simply grown accustomed to it?

my build was spec for condition removal. In fact, i have much better condition removal and survivability in comparison to alot of builds. I have perma vigor…. so my condition removal is enough. Oh well, my build is no longer relevant because anet bugged it.

For the ele comment: psssh i think they are populated by bad players which means if I lose to them I blame myself. I use them as a benchmark just like HS spammers <- lol

Thedenofsin.7340:

loseridoit.2756:

Troll.4237:

I can almost guarantee that you have never played a necro in-depth with what you just said and if that’s the case that makes you a hypocrite.

i can guarantee you that you never play against a necro with a class that has limited condition removal

i admit i dont play a necro but i played against them. I am answering your question

why are necros viewed op

Yes, if your profession has limited escape mechanism and poor condition removal, you will probably have a hard time against them. If you’re playing a warrior, well, that’s unfortunate. Warriors need a lot of help and nerfing necromancers isn’t the solution.

However, that’s the fundamental premise of profession-based gameplay. Some professions/specs will be a hard counter to others. Unless you’re a pema-stealth thief, of course, since they don’t have any counters.

Up until now, most professions could effectively ignore condition removal and spec for other things – more damage, more mobility, etc, and were relatively safe. If you do this now and you run into a necromancer, you’ll probably lose. Necromancers are no longer cannon fodder like they once were.

What I do find surprising is the amount of crying over necromancers and not over scepter/dagger elementalists. The last patch gave them insane burst damage – enough to basically kill an opponent in under 5 seconds, but they still have lots of healing and escapes. Yet, I don’t see the outcry there.

Is it because elementalists have been overpowered so long everyone has simply grown accustomed to it?

Because you can kill them with burst or conditions in under 5 secs as well.

30 points in air => only 10 in water => even lower HP and worse condition removal

The air burst build is extremely easy to counter if you survive the first burst rotation. It’s really not that difficult to kill them, especially if you use dodge, protection, fear, etc. properly.

P.S. They aren’t OP anymore since more than a month (maybe even 2 or 3 depending on your definition of OP).

I like to see Elementalists and Thieves crying because we are the “new OP” class… it makes me laugh.

albotelho.2931:

I like to see Elementalists and Thieves crying because we are the “new OP” class… it makes me laugh.

Actually every profession is complaining about necros right now and that’s the problem. Once there are complaints the nerfs will follow soon. Then the nerfed profession will complain about it and they will be nerfed again or wait for their buffs for some months.

That’s basically how worked since release.

DarnDevil IV.2143:

I started as a necromancer when this game launched, put him onto a shelf for several months because of all of the bugs and started maining it again 2 or 3 months ago. I play mostly condition mancer so this comes from my point of view.

The problem with the necro changes is that necromancers using conditions didn’t lack damage, not at all. I was able to melt a mug thief in WvW, 1v2 situation, I was alone, in 3 seconds while running away from his ranger friend, because I used fear on cc trait, doom and dark path and hit him with my staff 2.

I was able to melt bunkers over time.
Don’t tell me I don’t do any good in WvW. A well timed epidemic does 3+k dps to 5 ppl, and I will convert 25 boons with my well.

I don’t see nerfing the terror trait as the solution for reducing the damage. Why? The trait I used has an IC of 90 seconds and it’s highly situational and countered by stability.

The fear on CC for example requires the thief to use basilisk venom in order to proc and then it requires the opponent to be close, but if it procs, the hell is rained upon my opponent.

Doom was buffed in this patch. If you hit an opponent from the range of 600-1200 he will be feared for 1 sec (which was always the case pre patch). Now if you hit an opponent with doom under 600 range, you will get 1.5 sec fear.

This change was well needed for sPvP, where you cannot get so much extra condition duration, but in WvW/PvE the fear length gets ridiculous with 186% or 200% fear duration allowing for 3 terror tics on a 20 or 17 sec cooldown instead of 2. This was basically +50% damage to doom on terror builds.

Yes, unfortunately this makes necromancers OP. Not talking about the Dhuumfire which makes hybrid builds sending their opponents to the moon.

ANet people haven’t listened the whole community. Just the “buff conditions buff buff” talk. Many necromancers were saying that their damage was good (pre patch) and all they needed was a bit more stabi/vigor/mobi to avoid being runned over by 5+ enimies.

People were concerned about the new condition creating unbalance. Many asked for a new skill instead, something that would make us last longer in a fight or help to relocate ourselves. I was asking to get the burning by just replacing some of the bleeds with it leaving the overall damage done to the same, just splitting some of it for burning instead of all bleeding.

This would have created more reliability for our condition damage, not being dependant on just 1 or 2 conditions.

ANet should look at theirselves. Nerfing terror is not the way to go. Just adding pure damage is not the way to go. You need to listen to everyone, not just the part who says “more dmg pls”. Look what you have done.

Doom change should be reverted outside of sPvP.
Dhuumfire needs a rework.
Death Shroud 5 needs a rework.

What comes to Spectral Wall, it is highly situational skill countered by stability and should be left that way.

Torment is unbalancing the game, focusing even more people to get as many CondCleans as possible, which was the pre patch meta specially in WvW. It just punishes people with no CondCleans even harder.

If they’re going to nerf boon effects, I’m going to cry. They should even try to make boons so that some of them are ment to have high uptime (swiftness, regen) and some for doing/avoiding quick moves (protection, might, retal).

My suggestion is, it’s time to make a cap for their duration and then look at them again.

Simply adding damage to somewhere in one patch and taking it away from elsewhere or reducing effects (of boons) is not the way to go.

Necromancers were “not in their spot” pre patch. Now they are considered to be OP.

It’s time to adjust and modify the profession. Not to change it. Start by reverting some of the changes and finding the golden way between the necros of pre and post patch.

200..186 fear duration … mhm

albotelho.2931:

I like to see Elementalists and Thieves crying because we are the “new OP” class… it makes me laugh.

The necromancer representative on last weeks SOTG said flat out that his class was OP and he suggested to jon peters that they tone his class down a notch. It’s not ele’s and thieves that are crying either, its everyone.

Do you really think that 50% of the classes in sPvP right now are necro because you’re “finally viable?” no, thats ridiculous. its because lots of people play whatever is the fotm, and this month necros are OP.

As far as people calling for terror nerfs, those cries were fueled by a broken sigil (stun duration sigil was increasing fear duration), which made some very long CC possible. it has already been fixed.

Raven.9603:

Do you really think that 50% of the classes in sPvP right now are necro because you’re “finally viable?” no, thats ridiculous. its because lots of people play whatever is the fotm, and this month necros are OP.

Just because a class is FotM doesn’t mean it’s OP, let me make that clear. There are too many factors at play to claim that the recent patch made Necromancers OP, i.e. the addition of a new condition to the game to the Necromancer.

Raven.9603:

The necromancer representative on last weeks SOTG said flat out that his class was OP and he suggested to jon peters that they tone his class down a notch.

Zombify is a jerk and I detest that some refer to him as the best Necro. There is no “best.” He, too, shouldn’t call Necro OP as per what I mentioned above. If anything he should have mentioned specifics that are OP like the Terror/Dhuumfire combo. Zombify calling the class OP is just a bandwagon statement and holds little testament, but it unfortunately rings in the ears of Jon. There shouldn’t be a lone representative for an entire class especially when he is brain-dead statements that hinder the class more than it helps.

Him poisoning the ears of Jon only gives access to future ruin. Necro does need adjustment. However, someone who boasts being the best at Necro gives Jon the false illusion that he is an expert and this makes him more influential. This, I hopefully stressed enough, is not constructive to balancing Necro. Necro will be adjusted because it is “op as per the BEST”, but it will be over adjusted because of the misplaced influenced of one person.

Pendragon.8735:

loseridoit.2756:

With addition of a new condition called torment and access to burning, some classes do not have enough condition removal to remove other important conditions like poison, bleeds, fear (terror traited). Torment, cripple and other condition are shielding more damaging conditions such as burning or stacking bleeds.

This post is very disturbing. People played so long vs underpowered Necromancers they now feel they have the right to remove every condition a Necro puts on them because they once could.

That is the whole reason Necromancers were underpowerd in the first place! Why they needed a buddy like an Engi always with them to lay cover conditions, it was not a self contained class. (And need a buddy to peel for them being focused – still a problem if they don’t kill the opponent(s) super fast).

A condition Necromancer is getting about 75% of their damage from conditions, you are not supposed to be able to remove every single one.

That would be like if a warrior’s opponent could negate 75% of their direct damage.

Now you have to actually pay attention to what is on you and carefully choose when and what to remove, instead of just spamming a removal whenever you see any condition, which used to get the job done vs Necro sadly.

I don’t quite agree… I agree that it felt a bit clunky to have nearly all your damage depending on bleeds…

But yeah… I got easily a stack of about 10 bleeds up in 5 secs… The best multiple condition cleans have a cooldown of roughly 20 seconds…

I applied poison, chill and cripple to cover my bleeds and when the right moment came, boom, doom and fear mark and my opponent was dead. The only way to counter this was burning stun breakers and all cleanses which left the opponent open for conditions again…

Conditionmancers didn’t need any more damage, they needed survibility to have a chanse of avoiding a focus of 2+ people.

Instead ANet decided to basically give us torment (= 4.5 bleed stacks, about +500dps for 10 sec) and a 50% damage increase to doom (with terror, for me that is about +1.5k damage) when close to your opponent, which is nearly in every case. Not increasing the survivability which we lack but the damage we already had.

As a necromancer player, I do not think it is balance to push all players to have a full condition cleanse build just because of one profession being in the game

DarnDevil IV.2143:

Pendragon.8735:

loseridoit.2756:

With addition of a new condition called torment and access to burning, some classes do not have enough condition removal to remove other important conditions like poison, bleeds, fear (terror traited). Torment, cripple and other condition are shielding more damaging conditions such as burning or stacking bleeds.

This post is very disturbing. People played so long vs underpowered Necromancers they now feel they have the right to remove every condition a Necro puts on them because they once could.

That is the whole reason Necromancers were underpowerd in the first place! Why they needed a buddy like an Engi always with them to lay cover conditions, it was not a self contained class. (And need a buddy to peel for them being focused – still a problem if they don’t kill the opponent(s) super fast).

A condition Necromancer is getting about 75% of their damage from conditions, you are not supposed to be able to remove every single one.

That would be like if a warrior’s opponent could negate 75% of their direct damage.

Now you have to actually pay attention to what is on you and carefully choose when and what to remove, instead of just spamming a removal whenever you see any condition, which used to get the job done vs Necro sadly.

I don’t quite agree… I agree that it felt a bit clunky to have nearly all your damage depending on bleeds…

But yeah… I got easily a stack of about 10 bleeds up in 5 secs… The best multiple condition cleans have a cooldown of roughly 20 seconds…

I applied poison, chill and cripple to cover my bleeds and when the right moment came, boom, doom and fear mark and my opponent was dead. The only way to counter this was burning stun breakers and all cleanses which left the opponent open for conditions again…

Conditionmancers didn’t need any more damage, they needed survibility to have a chanse of avoiding a focus of 2+ people.

Instead ANet decided to basically give us torment (= 4.5 bleed stacks, about +500dps for 10 sec) and a 50% damage increase to doom (with terror, for me that is about +1.5k damage) when close to your opponent, which is nearly in every case. Not increasing the survivability which we lack but the damage we already had.

As a necromancer player, I do not think it is balance to push all players to have a full condition cleanse build just because of one profession being in the game

Doom never had damage applied unless traited and terror has always been around and has not been buffed. It was moved to the master tier. The duration of fear from doom got an increase in duration based off of how close they are to us. Statements like these make me think people are just jumping on the necro bandwagon. I agree some of our attacks hit really hard but if people want to know how to counter the conditionmancer on their class they can send me a whisper in game or a pm on the forums. I am more than happy to help.

Tears.5627:

Statements like these make me think people are just jumping on the necro bandwagon.

This is exactly what’s happening and people can’t realize this.

BobJoeXXI.2493:

Tears.5627:

Statements like these make me think people are just jumping on the necro bandwagon.

This is exactly what’s happening and people can’t realize this.

Good thing is I am classified as an “experienced necro” so all the bandwagon necros are pretty kitten easy to wreck in pvp and wvw

Troll.4237:

Linguistically Inept.6583:

Troll.4237:

It annoys me to death that terror is considered by most to be op, even though it has not changed for along time

…. spectral wall
was doom buffed or nerfed? i never really paid attention to how long the fear was before

Doom to my knowledge has remained the same, spectral wall is just like the knockdown guardian bubble thing, you can just walk around it and your fine. Even if spectral wall needed a nerf that doesn’t mean terror needs a nerf aswell.

doom had its fear duration vary depending on distance to target; but i cant recall what the base fear was before

… also its not really the same (anyone who thinks it is; is… quite frankly… an idiot)
1. terror; pulsing damage whilst feared
2. variable CC duration (most terror necros will stack fear duration)
3. its relatively easy to pull or walk an enemy into or out of as part of a terror chain
4. you can walk enemies through it multiple times ones feared (i got caught by this in wvw whilst my well of… icr… well of stunbreak was on CD; its horrible)

Hey guys… i have something for you…

NECROMANCER OP

Long story short, i don’t use burning, i got moa-ed, i killed him… necromancer is OP.

Doesn’t it makes the blood rush to your head when you see how every random … no matter how … he is he still expects to kill a necromancer, and if he doesn’t we are OP ?

Nemesis.8593:

Hey guys… i have something for you…

NECROMANCER OP

Long story short, i don’t use burning, i got moa-ed, i killed him… necromancer is OP.

Doesn’t it makes the blood rush to your head when you see how every random … no matter how … he is he still expects to kill a necromancer, and if he doesn’t we are OP ?

Indeed. To be fair, though, virtually every sPvP match I’ve played had some egotist who raged because he’d been beaten. I remember this one time when some warrior got kitten ed because he died trying to fight me (on my Necro) and another warrior on point. He spent more time raging than fighting.

tl;dr: People are dumb egomaniacs.

HOW TO THINK LIKE A PRO PVPER:
1. I am the best
2. oh look a class i can beat easily
3. …..
4. i lost
5. ???
6. that class must be OP!
7. i must tell the person who just killed me that they r noob because that will somehow make my kitten grow larger

Tears.5627:

DarnDevil IV.2143:

Pendragon.8735:

loseridoit.2756:

With addition of a new condition called torment and access to burning, some classes do not have enough condition removal to remove other important conditions like poison, bleeds, fear (terror traited). Torment, cripple and other condition are shielding more damaging conditions such as burning or stacking bleeds.

This post is very disturbing. People played so long vs underpowered Necromancers they now feel they have the right to remove every condition a Necro puts on them because they once could.

That is the whole reason Necromancers were underpowerd in the first place! Why they needed a buddy like an Engi always with them to lay cover conditions, it was not a self contained class. (And need a buddy to peel for them being focused – still a problem if they don’t kill the opponent(s) super fast).

A condition Necromancer is getting about 75% of their damage from conditions, you are not supposed to be able to remove every single one.

That would be like if a warrior’s opponent could negate 75% of their direct damage.

Now you have to actually pay attention to what is on you and carefully choose when and what to remove, instead of just spamming a removal whenever you see any condition, which used to get the job done vs Necro sadly.

I don’t quite agree… I agree that it felt a bit clunky to have nearly all your damage depending on bleeds…

But yeah… I got easily a stack of about 10 bleeds up in 5 secs… The best multiple condition cleans have a cooldown of roughly 20 seconds…

I applied poison, chill and cripple to cover my bleeds and when the right moment came, boom, doom and fear mark and my opponent was dead. The only way to counter this was burning stun breakers and all cleanses which left the opponent open for conditions again…

Conditionmancers didn’t need any more damage, they needed survibility to have a chanse of avoiding a focus of 2+ people.

Instead ANet decided to basically give us torment (= 4.5 bleed stacks, about +500dps for 10 sec) and a 50% damage increase to doom (with terror, for me that is about +1.5k damage) when close to your opponent, which is nearly in every case. Not increasing the survivability which we lack but the damage we already had.

As a necromancer player, I do not think it is balance to push all players to have a full condition cleanse build just because of one profession being in the game

Doom never had damage applied unless traited and terror has always been around and has not been buffed. It was moved to the master tier. The duration of fear from doom got an increase in duration based off of how close they are to us. Statements like these make me think people are just jumping on the necro bandwagon. I agree some of our attacks hit really hard but if people want to know how to counter the conditionmancer on their class they can send me a whisper in game or a pm on the forums. I am more than happy to help.

it’s just funny that you tell me that doom doesn’t do any damage without terror ^.^

do you guys read whole posts and follow the threads or just randomly read some highlights?

DarnDevil IV.2143:

Tears.5627:

DarnDevil IV.2143:

Pendragon.8735:

loseridoit.2756:

With addition of a new condition called torment and access to burning, some classes do not have enough condition removal to remove other important conditions like poison, bleeds, fear (terror traited). Torment, cripple and other condition are shielding more damaging conditions such as burning or stacking bleeds.

This post is very disturbing. People played so long vs underpowered Necromancers they now feel they have the right to remove every condition a Necro puts on them because they once could.

That is the whole reason Necromancers were underpowerd in the first place! Why they needed a buddy like an Engi always with them to lay cover conditions, it was not a self contained class. (And need a buddy to peel for them being focused – still a problem if they don’t kill the opponent(s) super fast).

A condition Necromancer is getting about 75% of their damage from conditions, you are not supposed to be able to remove every single one.

That would be like if a warrior’s opponent could negate 75% of their direct damage.

Now you have to actually pay attention to what is on you and carefully choose when and what to remove, instead of just spamming a removal whenever you see any condition, which used to get the job done vs Necro sadly.

I don’t quite agree… I agree that it felt a bit clunky to have nearly all your damage depending on bleeds…

But yeah… I got easily a stack of about 10 bleeds up in 5 secs… The best multiple condition cleans have a cooldown of roughly 20 seconds…

I applied poison, chill and cripple to cover my bleeds and when the right moment came, boom, doom and fear mark and my opponent was dead. The only way to counter this was burning stun breakers and all cleanses which left the opponent open for conditions again…

Conditionmancers didn’t need any more damage, they needed survibility to have a chanse of avoiding a focus of 2+ people.

Instead ANet decided to basically give us torment (= 4.5 bleed stacks, about +500dps for 10 sec) and a 50% damage increase to doom (with terror, for me that is about +1.5k damage) when close to your opponent, which is nearly in every case. Not increasing the survivability which we lack but the damage we already had.

As a necromancer player, I do not think it is balance to push all players to have a full condition cleanse build just because of one profession being in the game

Doom never had damage applied unless traited and terror has always been around and has not been buffed. It was moved to the master tier. The duration of fear from doom got an increase in duration based off of how close they are to us. Statements like these make me think people are just jumping on the necro bandwagon. I agree some of our attacks hit really hard but if people want to know how to counter the conditionmancer on their class they can send me a whisper in game or a pm on the forums. I am more than happy to help.

it’s just funny that you tell me that doom doesn’t do any damage without terror ^.^

do you guys read whole posts and follow the threads or just randomly read some highlights?

as a power necro; i can tell you that my doom does damage (not much; but it does)

edit for pic

Necro is now OP because adding Torment, Burning and extra Fear duration makes Terror builds go from good to OP.

With that said I think that it’s silly that some now suddenly think that the whole Profession is OP.
Necro’s mobility is still horrible, defense against stuns is laughable and the only way to survive an attack from 2 or more opponents is to use Plague above 50% Health.

If you can’t faceroll it, it’s OP. So for most whiners, that’s like everything they don’t play. You can’t expect people that 111111 all day to understand stuff like mobility, stunbreaks, and sustain.

I don’t play PvP so no comment on that, but the balance for pvp and other mods should be separate anyways.

Still, I think torment isn’t a particularly good idea.

Troll.4237:

It annoys me to death that terror is considered by most to be op, even though it has not changed for along time. This story is similar to the m16a3 in bf3 nerf, even though it wasnt changed since beta and then a year later it gets nerfed because a lot of people started using it.

you shouldn’t of said that terrors gonna get like 3 or 4 major nerfs just like the M16 did. someones always gonna find something wrong about it.

loseridoit.2756:

Errr…. condition removal is not evenly distributed among classes. If you want a quick explanation, then here it is.

With addition of a new condition called torment and access to burning, some classes do not have enough condition removal to remove other important conditions like poison, bleeds, fear (terror traited). Torment, cripple and other condition are shielding more damaging conditions such as burning or stacking bleeds.

In wvwvw, I am not sure how to evaluate due to food buffs such as lemon grass

In spvp and tpvp, these two extra condition put a strain on the classes already limited condition removal.

Necros are on the slightly OP side due to other class deficiencies in condition removal.

I play warrior and torment hurts because it is very difficult to remove.

of course a warrior says necro is op. can i borrow your 100b damage for my axe 2?
classes limited in conditions removal:
warrior annnnd thief. why? because they get everything else.
ranger has a lot, engineer has alot, guardian has a lot, mesmer has some(although no one uses it, hence the complaining) elementalist has a kittenton, necromancer has 3 skills that cleanse conditions.
when a warrior calls a necromancer overpowered, i’m just going to laugh. why? because the difference between necro burning and warrior burning is kind of like the difference between a Vulpix and a Charizard.

Lightsbane.9012:

loseridoit.2756:

Errr…. condition removal is not evenly distributed among classes. If you want a quick explanation, then here it is.

With addition of a new condition called torment and access to burning, some classes do not have enough condition removal to remove other important conditions like poison, bleeds, fear (terror traited). Torment, cripple and other condition are shielding more damaging conditions such as burning or stacking bleeds.

In wvwvw, I am not sure how to evaluate due to food buffs such as lemon grass

In spvp and tpvp, these two extra condition put a strain on the classes already limited condition removal.

Necros are on the slightly OP side due to other class deficiencies in condition removal.

I play warrior and torment hurts because it is very difficult to remove.

of course a warrior says necro is op. can i borrow your 100b damage for my axe 2?
classes limited in conditions removal:
warrior annnnd thief. why? because they get everything else.
ranger has a lot, engineer has alot, guardian has a lot, mesmer has some(although no one uses it, hence the complaining) elementalist has a kittenton, necromancer has 3 skills that cleanse conditions.
when a warrior calls a necromancer overpowered, i’m just going to laugh. why? because the difference between necro burning and warrior burning is kind of like the difference between a Vulpix and a Charizard.

not 100b warrior build.

My condition removal is quite good and i have perma vigor.

2 conditions every 15 seconds on separate skills and 1 of the condition removes removal all movement impairment conditions + 1.

if you do not understand my build then you do not have the right to comment about my build condition removal

pre patch i killed necros in a sustain fight. This patch distorted the balance and i am force to take cleansing ire. Oh well, my build bugged and i will not make another warrior build until anet gets their act together

Oh no you can’t get your free kills anymore!

loseridoit.2756:

pre patch i killed necros in a sustain fight. This patch distorted the balance and i am force to take cleansing ire. Oh well, my build bugged and i will not make another warrior build until anet gets their act together

So what you are saying is, before patch you could just attack and win, and now you have to actually try to counter the enemy build, thus the enemy must be overpowered? Oh the humanity, this man is a true…

Andele.1306:

loseridoit.2756:

pre patch i killed necros in a sustain fight. This patch distorted the balance and i am force to take cleansing ire. Oh well, my build bugged and i will not make another warrior build until anet gets their act together

So what you are saying is, before patch you could just attack and win, and now you have to actually try to counter the enemy build, thus the enemy must be overpowered? Oh the humanity, this man is a true…

it was a very specialize and unique build. well, anet bugged it.

1700-1800 toughness. two condition removal on separate skills. Heal for every 7k for every 30 sec and crits 4-6k with axe f1 every 9 seconds if i manage to hit it.

My build is little unique, I use weakness and cc to destroy enemy sustain. My build is an anti sustain build. Very unusual build. Oh well, I cant play it anymore

i couldnt really attack and win because there were necro that were better than me and kill me. My build is based on the idea i land 3 key attacks. These attacks are pretty telegraphed. So, I lost and died and a lot and won alot of encounter. I design it so anet will never nerfed, but they still bugged it

the reason why my build was pretty balance is because i sacrificed alot of dps to make it and lots of my attacks are pretty telegraphed.

lets see, in the last patch you got

burning to go along with all the other dmng conditions that you have access too

you got a condi that does extra dmng to people that move , wonder what that combos with oh right lol fear

the weakness change is huge in helping nullify dmng , guess which class has accses to easy aoe weakness o lol necro

Silas Drake.8946:

This QQ train is crazy.

Welcome in Mesmer wordl.

:p

Master of getting his skills/traits targeted by oversized spvpers QQ, which are always followed by oversized nerfs across the whole game.

Prepare yourselves: The nerfs are coming.

But in all seriousness, Anet tends to have selective hearing when it comes to balancing classes. Ranger and Engineer get ignored, Elementalist and Mesmer continually get nerfed, Warrior, Guardian, and Thief are the only somewhat balanced classes in the game, and Necromancer’s got a one time buff (I think).

When someone complained that Thieves were op, Anet was quick to pull out the nerf hammer and swipe away at anything the players said were op.

Yet, when my Ranger is completely ignored every single patch and I write dozens of posts about the Ranger being underpowered, (I’m not alone here, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of underpowered Ranger posts in the forums), Anet does not hear any of us.

So if I were you, I wouldn’t use the words “Necro” and “OP” in the same sentence, because Anet may swipe at you with their hammer of nerfs.

Galtrix.7369:

Prepare yourselves: The nerfs are coming.

But in all seriousness, Anet tends to have selective hearing when it comes to balancing classes. Ranger and Engineer get ignored, Elementalist and Mesmer continually get nerfed, Warrior, Guardian, and Thief are the only somewhat balanced classes in the game, and Necromancer’s got a one time buff (I think).

When someone complained that Thieves were op, Anet was quick to pull out the nerf hammer and swipe away at anything the players said were op.

Yet, when my Ranger is completely ignored every single patch and I write dozens of posts about the Ranger being underpowered, (I’m not alone here, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of underpowered Ranger posts in the forums), Anet does not hear any of us.

So if I were you, I wouldn’t use the words “Necro” and “OP” in the same sentence, because Anet may swipe at you with their hammer of nerfs.

Agreed, ANET buff things that are never used, and they nerf classes like Elementalist and Mesmers that can’t use the changes. Rangers are starting to get their buffs soon after half a year. My Mesmer/Necro gets destroyed now in SPvP from infinite stealth Thieves, and rush down Warriors with retaliation, so only way to save myself is run into my team to attempt to get them off me.

Galtrix.7369:

Yet, when my Ranger is completely ignored every single patch and I write dozens of posts about the Ranger being underpowered, (I’m not alone here, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of underpowered Ranger posts in the forums), Anet does not hear any of us.

the only place id consider ranger underpowered is in dungeons… which it seems like theyve been trying to work on (pets attacking from behind and stuff)… they just havent succeeded (especially when pets were nerfed because of BM ranger being OP in Spvp)

FuzzyRamen.4902:

Galtrix.7369:

Prepare yourselves: The nerfs are coming.

But in all seriousness, Anet tends to have selective hearing when it comes to balancing classes. Ranger and Engineer get ignored, Elementalist and Mesmer continually get nerfed, Warrior, Guardian, and Thief are the only somewhat balanced classes in the game, and Necromancer’s got a one time buff (I think).

When someone complained that Thieves were op, Anet was quick to pull out the nerf hammer and swipe away at anything the players said were op.

Yet, when my Ranger is completely ignored every single patch and I write dozens of posts about the Ranger being underpowered, (I’m not alone here, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of underpowered Ranger posts in the forums), Anet does not hear any of us.

So if I were you, I wouldn’t use the words “Necro” and “OP” in the same sentence, because Anet may swipe at you with their hammer of nerfs.

Agreed, ANET buff things that are never used, and they nerf classes like Elementalist and Mesmers that can’t use the changes. Rangers are starting to get their buffs soon after half a year. My Mesmer/Necro gets destroyed now in SPvP from infinite stealth Thieves, and rush down Warriors with retaliation, so only way to save myself is run into my team to attempt to get them off me.

Long time ago… i had a screenshot in which it shows how i got killed and by what… “3 x Heartseeker 38000 damage”. Tell me in those times thief wasn’t OP.

I so remember the Devs describing Necros as dangerous in their kill zone, that if someone engages a necro, they are going to take some serious pain to bring them down, with the flipside being that once a necro engages he is not going anywhere until he either kills you or dies trying. I like the model and I think we are not very close to that. Yep, we cannot take focus fire, and it sucks, unless you build for it and give up some offense. However, if someone steps into my killzone, either power or condition build, they are going to take some serious damage, and I know, I am not going anywhere.

This is EXTREMELY evident in tpvp/spvp because the point of the game is to take a point. If a necro is on the point defending or assaulting a point, he is going to do some serious damage to you unless you drop him, by focus firing. IMO a team can totally capitalize on that, and if your necro is getting focused, i would love to see mesmers do a pull and pull them away, or see some of the team CC them. On the other hand if a necro is being focused fired, the team is free to lay their damage on.

I still think it comes down to necros not being a push over in t/spvp and now a factor. Before they were only a factor if you completely ignored them, and if they got caught in between points fighting, you could ignore them completely, go around them, or cc them out of the way and keep going to a point.

Great thread and great suggestions. I have about 150 hour necro play time (mostly pve and wvw) and as a junior necro, i would like to add my recent observations.

There is no OPness in PvE for necros. Its even UP considering people only take warriors and mesmers for speed runs. I’ve been kicked three times today coz i am a necro, not a mesmer and this is the state of the game.

We actually lost a great bunkering/debuffing ability, corrupt boon and that makes us worse than what we were before in WvW. I’d say torment compensates for this loss, and i find necros to be quite balanced for WvW.

Spvp/Tpvp is the only place terrormancer builds actually work OP and yes, it could use a little touch. However they have to be really careful with this nerf. A big hit to this popular build may end up making necros worse than what they were, since the loss of Corrupt Boon is already making it worse for conditionmancers.

I tried terrormancer in sPvP to see what everyone complaining about, I absolutely hated it. Slow damage, and lower survivability. So I switched back to my usual power build 30/10/0/0/30. Had way more fun, was harder to kill, and killed faster. My Death Shroud autoattack hits like a truck, DS #4 skill does good AOE damage, my wells gives people even less space to move around, if they stand in it for few seconds it is over. Oh and the opponent team had a terrormancer in it, I maybe ran few times into his spectral wall, but didn’t feel the “OH SO OP I’M DEAD”.

So…. all this OP BS must stop…..

The problem is in that when a Necromancer puts a fear on someone with burning+terror+bleeds+poison, instead of the conditions working like their supposed to, a gradual tick down, it becomes a massive burst and people just fall over. Unfortunately I am seeing a massive town down to terror damage, like, complete obliteration. Have fun while you can guys.

loseridoit.2756:

Troll.4237:

I can almost guarantee that you have never played a necro in-depth with what you just said and if that’s the case that makes you a hypocrite.

i can guarantee you that you never play against a necro with a class that has limited condition removal

i admit i dont play a necro but i played against them. I am answering your question

why are necros viewed op

They are viewed OP because people haven’t learned how to deal with them yet. Here’s a hint: Necros have little or no stability, long CD stun breaks, and depend a lot more on utilities that aren’t stun breaks. You want to cry about too many conditions/fears? Try rolling a necro that doesn’t use them. You might as well roll a thief without stealth.

Xenon.4537:

You might as well roll a thief without stealth.

perma evasion thief?

Linguistically Inept.6583:

DarnDevil IV.2143:

Tears.5627:

DarnDevil IV.2143:

Pendragon.8735:

loseridoit.2756:

With addition of a new condition called torment and access to burning, some classes do not have enough condition removal to remove other important conditions like poison, bleeds, fear (terror traited). Torment, cripple and other condition are shielding more damaging conditions such as burning or stacking bleeds.

This post is very disturbing. People played so long vs underpowered Necromancers they now feel they have the right to remove every condition a Necro puts on them because they once could.

That is the whole reason Necromancers were underpowerd in the first place! Why they needed a buddy like an Engi always with them to lay cover conditions, it was not a self contained class. (And need a buddy to peel for them being focused – still a problem if they don’t kill the opponent(s) super fast).

A condition Necromancer is getting about 75% of their damage from conditions, you are not supposed to be able to remove every single one.

That would be like if a warrior’s opponent could negate 75% of their direct damage.

Now you have to actually pay attention to what is on you and carefully choose when and what to remove, instead of just spamming a removal whenever you see any condition, which used to get the job done vs Necro sadly.

I don’t quite agree… I agree that it felt a bit clunky to have nearly all your damage depending on bleeds…

But yeah… I got easily a stack of about 10 bleeds up in 5 secs… The best multiple condition cleans have a cooldown of roughly 20 seconds…

I applied poison, chill and cripple to cover my bleeds and when the right moment came, boom, doom and fear mark and my opponent was dead. The only way to counter this was burning stun breakers and all cleanses which left the opponent open for conditions again…

Conditionmancers didn’t need any more damage, they needed survibility to have a chanse of avoiding a focus of 2+ people.

Instead ANet decided to basically give us torment (= 4.5 bleed stacks, about +500dps for 10 sec) and a 50% damage increase to doom (with terror, for me that is about +1.5k damage) when close to your opponent, which is nearly in every case. Not increasing the survivability which we lack but the damage we already had.

As a necromancer player, I do not think it is balance to push all players to have a full condition cleanse build just because of one profession being in the game

Doom never had damage applied unless traited and terror has always been around and has not been buffed. It was moved to the master tier. The duration of fear from doom got an increase in duration based off of how close they are to us. Statements like these make me think people are just jumping on the necro bandwagon. I agree some of our attacks hit really hard but if people want to know how to counter the conditionmancer on their class they can send me a whisper in game or a pm on the forums. I am more than happy to help.

it’s just funny that you tell me that doom doesn’t do any damage without terror ^.^

do you guys read whole posts and follow the threads or just randomly read some highlights?

as a power necro; i can tell you that my doom does damage (not much; but it does)

edit for pic

My bad. I guess it does. That damage is so intense man. ;p
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Doom
People should stop the crying over dooms stand alone damage though.

DarnDevil IV.2143:

Tears.5627:

DarnDevil IV.2143:

Pendragon.8735:

loseridoit.2756:

With addition of a new condition called torment and access to burning, some classes do not have enough condition removal to remove other important conditions like poison, bleeds, fear (terror traited). Torment, cripple and other condition are shielding more damaging conditions such as burning or stacking bleeds.

This post is very disturbing. People played so long vs underpowered Necromancers they now feel they have the right to remove every condition a Necro puts on them because they once could.

That is the whole reason Necromancers were underpowerd in the first place! Why they needed a buddy like an Engi always with them to lay cover conditions, it was not a self contained class. (And need a buddy to peel for them being focused – still a problem if they don’t kill the opponent(s) super fast).

A condition Necromancer is getting about 75% of their damage from conditions, you are not supposed to be able to remove every single one.

That would be like if a warrior’s opponent could negate 75% of their direct damage.

Now you have to actually pay attention to what is on you and carefully choose when and what to remove, instead of just spamming a removal whenever you see any condition, which used to get the job done vs Necro sadly.

I don’t quite agree… I agree that it felt a bit clunky to have nearly all your damage depending on bleeds…

But yeah… I got easily a stack of about 10 bleeds up in 5 secs… The best multiple condition cleans have a cooldown of roughly 20 seconds…

I applied poison, chill and cripple to cover my bleeds and when the right moment came, boom, doom and fear mark and my opponent was dead. The only way to counter this was burning stun breakers and all cleanses which left the opponent open for conditions again…

Conditionmancers didn’t need any more damage, they needed survibility to have a chanse of avoiding a focus of 2+ people.

Instead ANet decided to basically give us torment (= 4.5 bleed stacks, about +500dps for 10 sec) and a 50% damage increase to doom (with terror, for me that is about +1.5k damage) when close to your opponent, which is nearly in every case. Not increasing the survivability which we lack but the damage we already had.

As a necromancer player, I do not think it is balance to push all players to have a full condition cleanse build just because of one profession being in the game

Doom never had damage applied unless traited and terror has always been around and has not been buffed. It was moved to the master tier. The duration of fear from doom got an increase in duration based off of how close they are to us. Statements like these make me think people are just jumping on the necro bandwagon. I agree some of our attacks hit really hard but if people want to know how to counter the conditionmancer on their class they can send me a whisper in game or a pm on the forums. I am more than happy to help.

it’s just funny that you tell me that doom doesn’t do any damage without terror ^.^

do you guys read whole posts and follow the threads or just randomly read some highlights?

I read the whole post. My bad on missing that fear damage on doom without terror. Doing 80-120 damage with fear without terror though is nothing to get worked up over.

Mmm…. but the fact that I was talking about was the terror damage of terror condition builds and DS5. Trust me, that is the main build I run and it didn’t need the extra +50% damage for doom with terror nor the extra condition…

Why can’t they just add more survivability… adding more damage in order to punish ppl for engaging on necromancers is just going to unbalance everything, and the funniest fact of all: it still won’t help us nor punish our opponents for engaging on necros with 3+ players bursting simultaneously.

What I’m afraid is that because of their new changes they start to nerf things that were balanced and essential for builds that are fun to play. Old skills shouldn’t be the place to tweak. The new changes that carried us from “not in a state where we should be” onto the point of being more or less OP are the ones to be modified. I really hope ANet gets that.

Because there is no stat that reduces condition damage, with a power build you can have toughness/armor and protection, but with conditions you have nothing and they can be spammed having 10 stacks of any condition in an AoE its too much, so pretty much the class is OP for the lack of any stat that mitigates condition damage, dont try the vit argument because its not.

Just a quick on the side note to whomever said Aegis blocks 100000 attacks while its up, learn the moves before you go about saying things. Aegis blocks a SINGULAR move while its up. It blocks one move then its gone. If aegis you are seeing is blocking unlimited moves please tell me where to get it because that would just be great.

Also people in general hate not being in control of their character, Fear plays right into this. Being feared often while taking damage and not being in control of it infuriates people, whether its a l2p issue or not thats just the way it is. I personally use condi removers and stability often, but it does not make getting feared, knockback, knockdown any less frustrating!

Troll.4237:

I feel that the addition of torment has encouraged players to try out the necromancer, thus making necromancers more popular. Now that people are facing necromancers more often they are realizing the true potential of the class.

It annoys me to death that terror is considered by most to be op, even though it has not changed for along time. This story is similar to the m16a3 in bf3 nerf, even though it wasnt changed since beta and then a year later it gets nerfed because a lot of people started using it.

Oh, good. So necro is fine. Guess you can all stf up about Automated Response then.

you don’t like the thieves shoes?

Tears.5627:

Linguistically Inept.6583:

DarnDevil IV.2143:

Tears.5627:

DarnDevil IV.2143:

Pendragon.8735:

loseridoit.2756:

With addition of a new condition called torment and access to burning, some classes do not have enough condition removal to remove other important conditions like poison, bleeds, fear (terror traited). Torment, cripple and other condition are shielding more damaging conditions such as burning or stacking bleeds.

This post is very disturbing. People played so long vs underpowered Necromancers they now feel they have the right to remove every condition a Necro puts on them because they once could.

That is the whole reason Necromancers were underpowerd in the first place! Why they needed a buddy like an Engi always with them to lay cover conditions, it was not a self contained class. (And need a buddy to peel for them being focused – still a problem if they don’t kill the opponent(s) super fast).

A condition Necromancer is getting about 75% of their damage from conditions, you are not supposed to be able to remove every single one.

That would be like if a warrior’s opponent could negate 75% of their direct damage.

Now you have to actually pay attention to what is on you and carefully choose when and what to remove, instead of just spamming a removal whenever you see any condition, which used to get the job done vs Necro sadly.

I don’t quite agree… I agree that it felt a bit clunky to have nearly all your damage depending on bleeds…

But yeah… I got easily a stack of about 10 bleeds up in 5 secs… The best multiple condition cleans have a cooldown of roughly 20 seconds…

I applied poison, chill and cripple to cover my bleeds and when the right moment came, boom, doom and fear mark and my opponent was dead. The only way to counter this was burning stun breakers and all cleanses which left the opponent open for conditions again…

Conditionmancers didn’t need any more damage, they needed survibility to have a chanse of avoiding a focus of 2+ people.

Instead ANet decided to basically give us torment (= 4.5 bleed stacks, about +500dps for 10 sec) and a 50% damage increase to doom (with terror, for me that is about +1.5k damage) when close to your opponent, which is nearly in every case. Not increasing the survivability which we lack but the damage we already had.

As a necromancer player, I do not think it is balance to push all players to have a full condition cleanse build just because of one profession being in the game

Doom never had damage applied unless traited and terror has always been around and has not been buffed. It was moved to the master tier. The duration of fear from doom got an increase in duration based off of how close they are to us. Statements like these make me think people are just jumping on the necro bandwagon. I agree some of our attacks hit really hard but if people want to know how to counter the conditionmancer on their class they can send me a whisper in game or a pm on the forums. I am more than happy to help.

it’s just funny that you tell me that doom doesn’t do any damage without terror ^.^

do you guys read whole posts and follow the threads or just randomly read some highlights?

as a power necro; i can tell you that my doom does damage (not much; but it does)

edit for pic

My bad. I guess it does. That damage is so intense man. ;p
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Doom
People should stop the crying over dooms stand alone damage though.

ikr? (i was just being pedantic)
- but it is useful for instantly getting someone in combat from range (meaning they cant wp whilst feared – which would particularily annoying on borderlands, if you managed to drop them)