Guild Wars 2

Theres a secret in the necro community

How to beat a necro:
Attack. Get into melee range, cleansing conditions if you are against a condition necro. CC. Damage.

Necros cant blink, teleport, invis, etc. Once you are in melee you are pretty much good. You will lock them down and kill them. If the necro tries to run away at any point, you have already won.

I know this is an oversimplification but this is a way to start to adapt your play style to fighting a necro. Like I have to adapt my play style to fighting a mesmer, thief, etc.

Adapting playstyle does not mean a class is OP. It means they have different vulnerabilities and strengths than your class

Sepreh.5924:

Theres a secret in the necro community

How to beat a necro:
Attack. Get into melee range, cleansing conditions if you are against a condition necro. CC. Damage.

Necros cant blink, teleport, invis, etc. Once you are in melee you are pretty much good. You will lock them down and kill them. If the necro tries to run away at any point, you have already won.

I know this is an oversimplification but this is a way to start to adapt your play style to fighting a necro. Like I have to adapt my play style to fighting a mesmer, thief, etc.

Adapting playstyle does not mean a class is OP. It means they have different vulnerabilities and strengths than your class

yup because casting 2-3 marks while running away from me and putting around 8 conditions, ticking me for 2k per second with chill and sometimes cripple as well definitely means Im winning.

Darek.1836:

Sepreh.5924:

Theres a secret in the necro community

How to beat a necro:
Attack. Get into melee range, cleansing conditions if you are against a condition necro. CC. Damage.

Necros cant blink, teleport, invis, etc. Once you are in melee you are pretty much good. You will lock them down and kill them. If the necro tries to run away at any point, you have already won.

I know this is an oversimplification but this is a way to start to adapt your play style to fighting a necro. Like I have to adapt my play style to fighting a mesmer, thief, etc.

Adapting playstyle does not mean a class is OP. It means they have different vulnerabilities and strengths than your class

yup because casting 2-3 marks while running away from me and putting around 8 conditions, ticking me for 2k per second with chill and sometimes cripple as well definitely means Im winning.

8 Conditions that tick 2k per second = 16K DPS, you will die in 1.5 seconds… how come i don’t die in 1.5 seconds from other necromancers… must be my baus aura. Hmm… how come i don’t kill other people in 1.5 seconds ?…

Awww man… baus aura is broken.

I was on my D/D thief against 3 enemies, one of them was a Terrormancer. I walked right into his wall once, managed to down only one enemy out of the three, and then was killed by the necro. Man, Necromancers are OP.

[/sarcasm]

Nemesis.8593:

Darek.1836:

yup because casting 2-3 marks while running away from me and putting around 8 conditions, ticking me for 2k per second with chill and sometimes cripple as well definitely means Im winning.

8 Conditions that tick 2k per second = 16K DPS, you will die in 1.5 seconds… how come i don’t die in 1.5 seconds from other necromancers… must be my baus aura. Hmm… how come i don’t kill other people in 1.5 seconds ?…

Awww man… baus aura is broken.

Really? Are you that kitten? They meant a TOTAL of 2k per second, not 8×2k. Some people…

Bubbles.1047:

Nemesis.8593:

Darek.1836:

yup because casting 2-3 marks while running away from me and putting around 8 conditions, ticking me for 2k per second with chill and sometimes cripple as well definitely means Im winning.

8 Conditions that tick 2k per second = 16K DPS, you will die in 1.5 seconds… how come i don’t die in 1.5 seconds from other necromancers… must be my baus aura. Hmm… how come i don’t kill other people in 1.5 seconds ?…

Awww man… baus aura is broken.

Really? Are you that kitten? They meant a TOTAL of 2k per second, not 8×2k. Some people…

Might have misunderstood that…
Going to stop getting involved right about now. Good luck to you all.

I read through a bit of the first page, and considering the replies, I thought I’d add my viewpoint as a long time Thief player and almost 700 hour Mesmer player.

The reason Necromancers are being viewed as OP is because the addition of burning along with the other buffs. No, it’s not because more people are playing Necro, not because they’re being noticed, or anything like that. It’s because the combination of Burning and Terror (fear damage) is deadly.

Let’s start from the top. Necro pre patch (I had been trying it off and on for a month or two) was, in my opinion, in no need of more condition damage. They were very well off in that respect. They didn’t need much more CC, but more helps. They had very serious condition damage that couldn’t be blown off. What I’m trying to say is that they had competitive condition damage. But they did need sustain.

Now? They got a bit of their sustain, and the most damaging condition in the game. Not to mention yet another damaging condition as well (which is fine!). The problem here is not Terror. It is not Fear. It is not CC. It is Dhuumfire.

The addition of this single trait made you guys monsters. There was a reason this same trait was nerfed on Engis. You can keep burn up almost permanently. Now add this to your already competitive condition damage, and it’s way too much. Sure, you can argue that to take this trait and terror, you give up your tankiness. But with this trait and terror, you don’t need armor. Your enemies are CC’d too long and damaged too much to scratch you before they go down.

I might be a bit biased on these viewpoints, as I only have 100 or so hours in Necromancer, but there’s only one right answer to this dilemma: Remove burning. Replace Dhuumfire with a torment trait of the same flavor, then we can work from there.

^ I would very much like to see videos of terrormancers 1v3+ in WvW.

Rahar is 100% on the money.

Azraeel.1238:

^ I would very much like to see videos of terrormancers 1v3+ in WvW.

I assume you are referencing our lack of survivability…?
Why do people bring up this argument to justify the gigantic and un-counterable amount of damage a Dhuum/Terror build can put out?
Both needs adjustment.

And even though Rahar has only ~100 hours on his necro and only “read through a bit of the first page” he has a better understanding of the topic than some necro veterans on this thread.

Azraeel.1238:

^ I would very much like to see videos of terrormancers 1v3+ in WvW.

I didn’t see a 1v3 in my 5 mins of watching this 18 min video, but there’s some crazy stuff this necro pulls off. Close to 5 mins there’s a 1v4 this necro does for a while in front of a camp (but his buddy later arrives, after he’s downed 3 of them). Good enough?

Bubbles.1047:

Nemesis.8593:

Darek.1836:

yup because casting 2-3 marks while running away from me and putting around 8 conditions, ticking me for 2k per second with chill and sometimes cripple as well definitely means Im winning.

8 Conditions that tick 2k per second = 16K DPS, you will die in 1.5 seconds… how come i don’t die in 1.5 seconds from other necromancers… must be my baus aura. Hmm… how come i don’t kill other people in 1.5 seconds ?…

Awww man… baus aura is broken.

Really? Are you that kitten? They meant a TOTAL of 2k per second, not 8×2k. Some people…

Considering that thieves can burst upwards of 8k DPS, and warriors churn out a consistent 4k DPS if in melee range… thats pretty low.

Kravick.4906:

Considering that thieves can burst upwards of 8k DPS, and warriors churn out a consistent 4k DPS if in melee range… thats pretty low.

But its a NECRO, theyre not supposed to kill anything…

Why are people trying to highlight supposed imbalances with the horrific noob zergfest that is WvW?

Show me a high level (and I do mean high level) tPvP game where 1 necro successfully stomps 2+ enemies and I’ll concede OP status.

loseridoit.2756:

Fungalfoot.7213:

Because we went from being free kills to one of the greatest threats.

While there are legitimately broken builds around ( 30/30/10 comes to mind ) the necromancer as a whole is definitely not overpowered. We’re still a tier below the ever dominant mesmers.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/sPvP-Class-Tier-List-Updated-6-30

actuallu, necros are above mesmer right now

the last patch sort of gave a minor nerf to mesmer

One man’s opinion does not make it so.

As much as it pains me to say it, spectral wall is probably too strong. I really think it was a good move to give a ward to a non-guardian class, but with our ranged dps, it’s a whole different story to a guardian ward.

In tournaments I apply 4.5k armour ignoring condition damage with each autoattack chain, taking 2 seconds to complete casting. When dhuumfire is up, that becomes 8k, and will need to be cleared.

So they have to cleanse 2 seconds in, then vs melee, GS phantasms, BM hunters, shatters, etc, I can just hide behind spectral wall for 8 seconds, dodge rolling across it if they blink/shadowstep/walk around/whatever. That’s 4 autoattack chains, 18k damage applied, and they’ve already used one cleanse. By this time, dhuumfire is back up, and my next auto chain is another 8k.

That’s 34k applied with autoattack plus one other skill, and zero terror ticks. During that time, some builds have had all of 4 seconds to do any real damage to me.

There are a few professions out there whose tournament viable builds just don’t have answers to a necro atm. Anything that needs to get themselves or their pets next to you is already in trouble. Anything with long cooldowns on their condition removal is already in trouble. The only thing you can really lose to that has both of those problems is a stance warrior.

Not that 1v1 is meaningful, but considering how much pressure we put on the other team, spectral wall really narrows down the options they have to put pressure on us in turn. Eles and some ranger builds are still a PITA, and stance warriors are annoying too, but otherwise, you often find yourself freecasting, which has never been good news for the other team, and is even worse now with dhuumfire. Especially since there is so little drawback to speccing GC now.

However, until people start start to give up their crappy rockdogs for melandru runes, or start running a mix of 2 or more eles, wars, and rangers in their teams, you can’t say the meta has adapted in any meaningful way to the necro changes, so nerfs are probably premature. If you have a berserker stance hammer warrior sitting on the necro all game, that necro isn’t going to do a lot. Of course, it’s quite rare to find a melee guy who really knows how to sit on someone, they tend to be easily distracted after the first kill and start chasing mesmers and bunkers around like they’re in a benny hill episode.

Tenebrous.2451:

loseridoit.2756:

Fungalfoot.7213:

Because we went from being free kills to one of the greatest threats.

While there are legitimately broken builds around ( 30/30/10 comes to mind ) the necromancer as a whole is definitely not overpowered. We’re still a tier below the ever dominant mesmers.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/sPvP-Class-Tier-List-Updated-6-30

actuallu, necros are above mesmer right now

the last patch sort of gave a minor nerf to mesmer

One man’s opinion does not make it so.

errr…

that list is compiled from top tpvp players and the rest of the community………

i took no part in making the list

tenebrous is one man,s opnion but the first post is the community

That list is meaningless, just like every previous attempt. A proper tier list is compiled from win percentages, not votes. If the majority of these forums were good enough at the game to be able to tell which classes are OP, well, the forums would be a lot quieter, due to the lack of ‘omgnerf x’ threads.

Remember when the spvp forum was drowning in 100 blades tears? I do. Warriors would have topped the tier list by miles had someone compiled it then.

In fact, I think the spvp forum hivemind is so hopeless at assessing balance that if mesmers smashed everyone except guardians, but a guardian on the other team made having a mesmer like playing 4v5, mesmers would easily top the tier list despite seeing zero play and zero wins if they did get played accidentally.

Mammoth.1975:

That list is meaningless, just like every previous attempt. A proper tier list is compiled from win percentages, not votes. If the majority of these forums were good enough at the game to be able to tell which classes are OP, well, the forums would be a lot quieter, due to the lack of ‘omgnerf x’ threads.

Remember when the spvp forum was drowning in 100 blades tears? I do. Warriors would have topped the tier list by miles had someone compiled it then.

In fact, I think the spvp forum hivemind is so hopeless at assessing balance that if mesmers smashed everyone except guardians, but a guardian on the other team made having a mesmer like playing 4v5, mesmers would easily top the tier list despite seeing zero play and zero wins if they did get played accidentally.

……………….nice opinion

check page 11

let see whose opinion matters more

Not sure what you’re trying to say.

loseridoit.2756:

Mammoth.1975:

That list is meaningless, just like every previous attempt. A proper tier list is compiled from win percentages, not votes. If the majority of these forums were good enough at the game to be able to tell which classes are OP, well, the forums would be a lot quieter, due to the lack of ‘omgnerf x’ threads.

Remember when the spvp forum was drowning in 100 blades tears? I do. Warriors would have topped the tier list by miles had someone compiled it then.

In fact, I think the spvp forum hivemind is so hopeless at assessing balance that if mesmers smashed everyone except guardians, but a guardian on the other team made having a mesmer like playing 4v5, mesmers would easily top the tier list despite seeing zero play and zero wins if they did get played accidentally.

……………….nice opinion

check page 11

let see whose opinion matters more

I looked at page 11 and the most respected names on that page don’t have the necro as tier S (OP). Some of them don’t even have it tier A. What point are you trying to make?

loseridoit.2756:

Tenebrous.2451:

loseridoit.2756:

Fungalfoot.7213:

Because we went from being free kills to one of the greatest threats.

While there are legitimately broken builds around ( 30/30/10 comes to mind ) the necromancer as a whole is definitely not overpowered. We’re still a tier below the ever dominant mesmers.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/sPvP-Class-Tier-List-Updated-6-30

actuallu, necros are above mesmer right now

the last patch sort of gave a minor nerf to mesmer

One man’s opinion does not make it so.

errr…

that list is compiled from top tpvp players and the rest of the community………

i took no part in making the list

tenebrous is one man,s opnion but the first post is the community

Again aggregated opinion is just that. What does “the community” or “top tpvp players” even mean in this sense?

My understanding is there was not even much of a Necro presence in top tPvP so if we start showing up as something that was not to be steamrolled we will get a reaction. Moreover, how many people play necro regularly among “Top players,” given necro’s previous lack of representation among that tier of folks.

That reaction is more representative of something new, probably something people have not played allot before, rather that what is really there.

It is weird that there is no boon paired with torment. Every condition except torment has a counterpart in form of a boon. Maybe with an introduction a tomren counterpart boon things will get evened out a little…

TyPin.9860:

It is weird that there is no boon paired with torment. Every condition except torment has a counterpart in form of a boon. Maybe with an introduction a tomren counterpart boon things will get evened out a little…

I’d like to suggest “chastity”. Take 33% less damage from STDs…err conditions…and attacks from the rear.

I bet Anet will make it so fear breaks on damage -as in regardless of duration it breaks after 1 tick.

Craptrain.7203:

loseridoit.2756:

Mammoth.1975:

That list is meaningless, just like every previous attempt. A proper tier list is compiled from win percentages, not votes. If the majority of these forums were good enough at the game to be able to tell which classes are OP, well, the forums would be a lot quieter, due to the lack of ‘omgnerf x’ threads.

Remember when the spvp forum was drowning in 100 blades tears? I do. Warriors would have topped the tier list by miles had someone compiled it then.

In fact, I think the spvp forum hivemind is so hopeless at assessing balance that if mesmers smashed everyone except guardians, but a guardian on the other team made having a mesmer like playing 4v5, mesmers would easily top the tier list despite seeing zero play and zero wins if they did get played accidentally.

……………….nice opinion

check page 11

let see whose opinion matters more

I looked at page 11 and the most respected names on that page don’t have the necro as tier S (OP). Some of them don’t even have it tier A. What point are you trying to make?

johnan sharp,s comments

that tier list practically is a small layout on the range of buffs or nerfs each class is gong to recieve. usually, it pretty accurate view on community view of each and every claas

d/d ele was on top and got more nerfs than buff

then ranger

then necros will be next

basically, this thread is kinda redundant. for the most part, this thread is not a debate on whether or not necros will get nerfed but which areas are going to be nerfed

TyPin.9860:

It is weird that there is no boon paired with torment. Every condition except torment has a counterpart in form of a boon. Maybe with an introduction a tomren counterpart boon things will get evened out a little…

but that counterpart it’s not unique. There are more conditions than boons. When using Well of Power Bleed and Chill turn into vigor and cripple and immobilized turn into swiftness. So you don’t need a new boon for that purpose.

It still kind of bugs me that bleed turns into vigor and vice versa. I mean really the opposite of vigor (Doubled endurance recovery) is weakness (Halved endurance recovery), and the opposite of bleeding (Direct damage over time) would be regeneration (Direct healing over time).

As to the thread: I think it’s as simple as the addition of dhuumfire & torment making “burst” condition damage too plausible / viable on the Necromancer, who was already able to do it somewhat with Terror. And really, I don’t think ANet wants players to be able to apply that much condition damage that quickly and single-handedly.

We’re viewed as overpowered because we’re overpowered. Burning or at least three stacks of torment through Dhuumfire is required for the condition cleansing metagame, but Terror just allows for too much burst once necromancers have proper condition coverage.

Suggested changes: Make Dhuumfire apply three stacks of torment instead of burning. Switch Terror and Withering Precision in the Curses trait line, and remove Terror’s bonus damage.

Rahar.9872:

Azraeel.1238:

^ I would very much like to see videos of terrormancers 1v3+ in WvW.

I didn’t see a 1v3 in my 5 mins of watching this 18 min video, but there’s some crazy stuff this necro pulls off. Close to 5 mins there’s a 1v4 this necro does for a while in front of a camp (but his buddy later arrives, after he’s downed 3 of them). Good enough?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-PVnU36RPc

He barely was alone in almost all of the fights, and most of them had his friend “tank” where he stood in the back throwing off conditions. I’m not bashing the necro, he is very good at what he does. I’ve seen this video before, and even the guy said he was able to pull it off thanks to his friend.

I’ve seen a video of a berserker Guardian downing a whole zerg by just one combo, it was funny actually. I’ve seen another video of a thief that downed an 80 player from CnD + backstab alone, doing amazing damage.

My point is that going full damage, should yield high numbers, but that sacrifices survivability of course.

Keep in mind I’m not raging here, I simply want to answer WHY I’m playing a necromancer all night long in pvp either why people should.

Here is why Necromancers are being viewed as OP:

1: it’s not Dhuumfire
2: it’s not Terror

It’s the Whole condition spamming capabilities coupled with heavy CC all while KEEPING a lot of utility and anti-meta skills.

A dhuumfire necromancer can burst… a condition build that burst, that doesn’t make much sense does it? but that’s not all.

While some people pointed out that engineers had access to the same traits they didn’t consider many other things like:

The fact that as an engineer you WANT reduced CD on rifle or pistol, and probably the AoE-boost trait for bombs if you take bomb kit, then elixirs’ traits if you want some kind of defense against conditions… so… after wasting literally 40 trait points into CD and a single condition cleanser (all just to make any build VIABLE) you can finally go with damage, but engineers need mastertraits for those so they simply can’t be a burst spec.

I’d also like to mention how Pistols’ bleeds last a base 2s duration, how skill description states it’s cast in 1/2 while it actually is 3/4, and especially how poison dart’s volley doesn’t land correctly on targets, making it VERY hard to land some poison condition.

Now the necro… the necromancer can literally auto-spam plenty of stacks of bleeds in a matter of seconds, thanks to its very short cast-time it’s very fast but that’s not everything, have you guys ever noticed it’s… the ONLY ranged weapon in game that doesn’t have PROJECTILES? and is thus not counterable by positioning and reflections?

And it’s also hard to notice in crowded situations.

Keeping in mind that poison affects enemies’ heals lowering them, the burns, the condition duration, a single CC, maybe a couple literally win a fight because the opponent can’t keep up with CC+condition.

Now we’ll bring to the table the defenses of a necromancer… while being able to auto-spam your “purpose” you have plenty of time and attention to keep track of everything that happens around you (thing that would be literally impossible on an engineer, especially while using bombs), and while an engineer would have to waste an utility slot or 2 for offensive (a kit, maybe 2 and slick shoes or something similar) and 1 for defensive/stomping (elixir S), the necromancer can bring the fearsome (no pun intended) spectral wall, which, on such a short CD is quite strong, coupled with other spectral skills can boost your Death shroud dramatically allowing you extra fears, damage and especially bulkyness.

The best elite for a condition based necromancer is without a doubt the flesh golem, because the knockdown time it allows is more than enough to burst down someone.

Now, to top it all you need an anti-meta skill, and looks like there’s STILL space on our skillbar, which is probably going to fit a well of power (this isn’t actually strong because at this point you can’t trait for it, but it’s without a doubt “enough” and AoE, meaning it affects your allies too), oh and, did I mention Deathly swarm (for more condition clearing)? this means necromancers are bulky, can support, can still burst heavily, got CC AND condition removal… sure they aren’t impervious to CC but you gotta admit that’s counterable with DS anyway so… how are we supposed to counter’em? that’s right, you can’t, at least you can’t if it’s a good necromancer.

^ all of this is true.

flow.6043:

^ all of this is true.

I don’t know about this.

For starters, mesmers GS is a ranged weapon, and not a projectile.

Second of all, all of what you are complaining about, had been there for AGES. Stop lying to yourself, the real issue here is Dhuumfire. Necromancers have always had the ability to spam conditions, what gave them the burst ability is Terror + dhuumfire. Considering that people didn’t nag pre-patch when Terror was Adept, and sigil used to work on fear, then we can conclude it isn’t the culprit.

In fact, I bet if they remove Dhuumfire, more than half of the people will stop complaining.

@Azraeel.1238

Of course the GS isn’t a projectile, but it needs clones to be used to its full potential, kite and a careful user, while also HAVING to display the full animation (which is quite long) to deal the full damage (which isn’t all that great by itself), a scepter can be spammed as it is and be fully effective…

And removing dhuumfire right after being implemented in the game is impossible, devs would never allow such a thing.

The only thing I’d see coming would be dhuumfire moved in the same trailine of terror (there’s a chance they may also move terror to grandmaster, not to allow both at the same time) and/or a longer cast-time on scepter’s #1, like 3/4 instead of 1/2, just like normal stuff you know?

Also I don’t rely on Terror, it simply compliments the usage of fear to lock down low-healthed opponents, for short a Terror nerf wouldn’t truly hurt the build to bring it down to normal levels.

Rfreak.6591:

And removing dhuumfire right after being implemented in the game is impossible, devs would never allow such a thing.

Why?

Rfreak.6591:

Also I don’t rely on Terror, it simply compliments the usage of fear to lock down low-healthed opponents, for short a Terror nerf wouldn’t truly hurt the build to bring it down to normal levels.

I’ll just say it again… as long as burning is there you still have that extra damaging condition condition. It takes up one more cleansing spot, this does not only make the whole combo stronger but every condition that other classes can’t clear at once.
Nerfing Terror damage or reducing burning duration wouldn’t change that.
If the damage is reduced drastically enough to balance this specific combo then builds that don’t use both are going to be too weak.

This on the other hand will work:

Azraeel.1238:

In fact, I bet if they remove Dhuumfire, more than half of the people will stop complaining.

@flow.6043

You didn’t read my post properly, I meant: It’d be perfectly fine if people had to choose dhuumfire or Terror which is why I was suggesting to place both traits to grandmaster so people have to choose which one.

“Why?”, because that means devs made a mistake, admitting it and revamping a skill that cost money to be made (twice)? And because that burn was definitely needed for condition builds?

Also, nerfing terror means nerfing power builds relying on fear, which is definitely NOT what devs or players want.

Rfreak.6591:

“Why?”, because that means devs made a mistake, admitting it and revamping a skill that cost money to be made (twice)?

The financial investment (of copy pasting an engi trait…?) shouldn’t factor into the decision of whether or not to keep it.
If it was a mistake then it needs to go, that’s all.

Rfreak.6591:

And because that burn was definitely needed for condition builds?

No, it definitely wasn’t.

Rfreak.6591:

Also, nerfing terror means nerfing power builds relying on fear, which is definitely NOT what devs or players want.

I can’t imagine a powerbuild profiting more from Terror than Close to Death or Deathly Perception.
Anyway, I’m all for leaving Terror as it is…

flow.6043:

Rfreak.6591:

And removing dhuumfire right after being implemented in the game is impossible, devs would never allow such a thing.

Why?

Rfreak.6591:

Also I don’t rely on Terror, it simply compliments the usage of fear to lock down low-healthed opponents, for short a Terror nerf wouldn’t truly hurt the build to bring it down to normal levels.

I’ll just say it again… as long as burning is there you still have that extra damaging condition condition. It takes up one more cleansing spot, this does not only make the whole combo stronger but every condition that other classes can’t clear at once.
Nerfing Terror damage or reducing burning duration wouldn’t change that.
If the damage is reduced drastically enough to balance this specific combo then builds that don’t use both are going to be too weak.

This on the other hand will work:

Azraeel.1238:

In fact, I bet if they remove Dhuumfire, more than half of the people will stop complaining.

I call BS. We still have less conditions available to us than many other condition builds, and we are a debuff/DoT class! We are suppose to be strong in those areas. Honestly, if it was that fire took up a cleansing slot, then why do people not complain about, say engineers and the wide variety of conditions, including burning poison, etc. etc.

@flow.6043

You know that every single skill has to be worked, programmed, placed in game, tested, translated and officialized via announcements right? are you even aware of the costs of game developement? It seems to me you are not honestly.

A dhuumfire nerf is NOT going to happen, maybe moving the trait.

Also… it’s stated that necromancers are a bit too strong at what they do with conditions right now, I definitely WOULD leave Terror as it is right now, I don’t feel it should be a grandmaster either, but the only possible solution that doesn’t involve a nerf that would hurt most builds is the one I mentioned above.

@Tenebrous.2451

Engineers can’t stack durations properly, in fact we can’t even stack bleeds properly outside of the grenade kit which is unreliable for that purpose (or elixir gun which is definitely too weak to deal damage in general, a LOT weaker version of the necromancer) in a pvp perspective.

Read the walltext I posted above and you’ll understand more.

Rfreak.6591:

Now the necro… the necromancer can literally auto-spam plenty of stacks of bleeds in a matter of seconds, thanks to its very short cast-time it’s very fast but that’s not everything, have you guys ever noticed it’s… the ONLY ranged weapon in game that doesn’t have PROJECTILES? and is thus not counterable by positioning and reflections?

Elementalist Scepter in Fire and Air.

Mesmer Greatsword.

Necro Axe and Trident.

I think that’s it. Also, you can still counter with with blocks and breaking line of sight.

Rfreak.6591:

Now we’ll bring to the table the defenses of a necromancer… while being able to auto-spam your “purpose” you have plenty of time and attention to keep track of everything that happens around you (thing that would be literally impossible on an engineer, especially while using bombs),

I have no trouble keeping my situational awareness on my Engi, and I’m not even an exceptional Engi. This sounds like a base-level L2P issue.

Rfreak.6591:

Engineers can’t stack durations properly, in fact we can’t even stack bleeds properly outside of the grenade kit which is unreliable for that purpose (or elixir gun which is definitely too weak to deal damage in general, a LOT weaker version of the necromancer) in a pvp perspective.

Engis make up for low condition duration with heavy condi application. A good Engi can get bleeds, poison, burning, confusion, cripple, immobilize, and chill on you in like a second, and then toss them all back on you 5 seconds later if you managed to cleanse them.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Rfreak.6591:

Now the necro… the necromancer can literally auto-spam plenty of stacks of bleeds in a matter of seconds, thanks to its very short cast-time it’s very fast but that’s not everything, have you guys ever noticed it’s… the ONLY ranged weapon in game that doesn’t have PROJECTILES? and is thus not counterable by positioning and reflections?

Elementalist Scepter in Fire and Air.

Mesmer Greatsword.

Necro Axe and Trident.

I think that’s it. Also, you can still counter with with blocks and breaking line of sight.

I believe by “ranged” he meant 1200, with the extra mark radius you actually get 1440.
Also, marks don’t require line of sight.

flow.6043:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Rfreak.6591:

Now the necro… the necromancer can literally auto-spam plenty of stacks of bleeds in a matter of seconds, thanks to its very short cast-time it’s very fast but that’s not everything, have you guys ever noticed it’s… the ONLY ranged weapon in game that doesn’t have PROJECTILES? and is thus not counterable by positioning and reflections?

Elementalist Scepter in Fire and Air.

Mesmer Greatsword.

Necro Axe and Trident.

I think that’s it. Also, you can still counter with with blocks and breaking line of sight.

I believe by “ranged” he meant 1200, with the extra mark radius you actually get 1440.
Also, marks don’t require line of sight.

The Necro Scepter is 900 (same as the Ele autos), and the Mesmer Greatsword is 1200…

Are people actually going to complain about ranged attacks that aren’t hard countered by reflection?

I could’ve sworn I had posted in this thread. Is there really that much debate over the subject that I’m starting to merge things in my head? Anyway, I’ve definitely posted stuff elsewhere, so I’ll just copy my posts over from there. From the condition meta thread:

The biggest buff that necromancers saw to their condition damage was not burning. It was the large increase the amount of fear they had available, which is now letting terror specs inflict an incredible amount of damage. The addition of torment also helps. Dhuumfire itself is a trait-investment heavy ability that only procs off on crits and has a long cooldown. It has numerous weakness in that it is heavily build specific, contributes little to AoE and can be absorbed by mesmer clones/ranger pets/ whatever, and it is readily overwritten by nearby guardians and elementalists who have not specced into condition damage, making it unreliable in team vs. team circumstances. It only stacks in duration, making multiple sources of burning redundant and easily cleansed away, contributing no greater DPS than if only one person had burning. It is the worst scaling condition in the game, requiring 50% more malice to double damage output.

Necros received about a dozen meaningful buffs in the last patch:
#1: Greater Life Force Generation
#2: Torment + Immobilize in DS
#3: Doom duration increased by 50% at point blank range (fear)
#4: Weakness condition greatly increased with necromancers maintaining high duration.
#5: Spectral Wall now owns everyone who crosses it and makes chain-stunning three times easier (fear)
#6: We received new stunbreakers and all of our bad stun breakers now have shorter cooldowns.
#7: Poison duration from the scepter auto attack was doubled.
#8: Our slow casting skills are now much faster.
#9: Spectral effects now remain while in Death Shroud.
#10: Signet of Spite now provides a meaningful power boost, recharges 33% quicker, and seriously messes someone up when used.
#11: Blinds now persist until the enemy actually misses their target.
#12: Vampiric now heals for more and does more damage.

And that isn’t even mentioning Power Necro buffs or Dhuumfire. It annoys me how everyone looks at the big bright flame that Necros received and assume it is the problem when Necros have been made so much better in so many different ways.

I duo-main an Engineer and a Necromancer. I tried Dhuumfire for a few rounds in sPVP, then respec out of it since it preformed exactly how I expected to: poorly. So I went back to stacking fear for terror damage, combined now with torment and the fact that I am basically better in every way as a necro.

I also do some more elaboration on the condition damage and terror in another thread, particularly why it is I am unsure if a nerf is called for on terror. Its two posts long, so I’ll just link the first post:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Terror-Nerf-Incoming/first#post2364453

Rfreak.6591:

Keep in mind I’m not raging here, I simply want to answer WHY I’m playing a necromancer all night long in pvp either why people should.

Here is why Necromancers are being viewed as OP:

1: it’s not Dhuumfire
2: it’s not Terror

It’s the Whole condition spamming capabilities coupled with heavy CC all while KEEPING a lot of utility and anti-meta skills.

A dhuumfire necromancer can burst… a condition build that burst, that doesn’t make much sense does it? but that’s not all.

While some people pointed out that engineers had access to the same traits they didn’t consider many other things like:

The fact that as an engineer you WANT reduced CD on rifle or pistol, and probably the AoE-boost trait for bombs if you take bomb kit, then elixirs’ traits if you want some kind of defense against conditions… so… after wasting literally 40 trait points into CD and a single condition cleanser (all just to make any build VIABLE) you can finally go with damage, but engineers need mastertraits for those so they simply can’t be a burst spec.

I’d also like to mention how Pistols’ bleeds last a base 2s duration, how skill description states it’s cast in 1/2 while it actually is 3/4, and especially how poison dart’s volley doesn’t land correctly on targets, making it VERY hard to land some poison condition.

Now the necro… the necromancer can literally auto-spam plenty of stacks of bleeds in a matter of seconds, thanks to its very short cast-time it’s very fast but that’s not everything, have you guys ever noticed it’s… the ONLY ranged weapon in game that doesn’t have PROJECTILES? and is thus not counterable by positioning and reflections?

And it’s also hard to notice in crowded situations.

Keeping in mind that poison affects enemies’ heals lowering them, the burns, the condition duration, a single CC, maybe a couple literally win a fight because the opponent can’t keep up with CC+condition.

Now we’ll bring to the table the defenses of a necromancer… while being able to auto-spam your “purpose” you have plenty of time and attention to keep track of everything that happens around you (thing that would be literally impossible on an engineer, especially while using bombs), and while an engineer would have to waste an utility slot or 2 for offensive (a kit, maybe 2 and slick shoes or something similar) and 1 for defensive/stomping (elixir S), the necromancer can bring the fearsome (no pun intended) spectral wall, which, on such a short CD is quite strong, coupled with other spectral skills can boost your Death shroud dramatically allowing you extra fears, damage and especially bulkyness.

The best elite for a condition based necromancer is without a doubt the flesh golem, because the knockdown time it allows is more than enough to burst down someone.

Now, to top it all you need an anti-meta skill, and looks like there’s STILL space on our skillbar, which is probably going to fit a well of power (this isn’t actually strong because at this point you can’t trait for it, but it’s without a doubt “enough” and AoE, meaning it affects your allies too), oh and, did I mention Deathly swarm (for more condition clearing)? this means necromancers are bulky, can support, can still burst heavily, got CC AND condition removal… sure they aren’t impervious to CC but you gotta admit that’s counterable with DS anyway so… how are we supposed to counter’em? that’s right, you can’t, at least you can’t if it’s a good necromancer.

flow.6043:

^ all of this is true.

nope. it’s not even remotely true

just a bunch more misconceptions and misleading generalizations

@Blaine Tog.8304

Of course pointing out every single weapon that doesn’t have projectiles on #1 makes a point right? no, because they aren’t nearly as effective as necromancer’s scepter#1.

You know full well what i mean, but want to get into the tiniest of details for the sake of having something to argue about.

Oh and about engies, of course you can use pistol’s #3, 4, 5 (which require 10 point for reduced CD), switch to grenades (which requires 30 points and an utility slot), quickly throw #2, 3, 4, 5 (I was talking about BOMBS btw, sorry if you are using the usual gimmick grenade-elixir build), while keeping track of 2-3 enemies fighting against you (all alone) own’em, travel in time to own them once more and maybe fly right? OH! but-but! you’d still be less effective than a necromancer spamming #1, you happy now? (I’m serious about this last statement, and you’d be much less bulky without a doubt, only effective in zergs or surprise attacks).

Because… condition engies are bulky? no
they burst condition? no
they have CCs while not using a rifle? no

Seriously I have over 400 wins on my engi I think it’s you that gotta L2P.

necro is simpyl broken and op atm, everyone who denies that is eitehr bad or in denial.
the amoutn of aoe pressure is unrivaled by any other class and single target condi burst is nearly as strong as burst specs while ignoring armor.
Also necro cann chain cc for ridicoulus amoutns of time and from a long range making it very ahrd to do anything against it….

ye necro is op and should be nerfed ASAP

Rfreak.6591:

@Blaine Tog.8304

Of course pointing out every single weapon that doesn’t have projectiles on #1 makes a point right? no, because they aren’t nearly as effective as necromancer’s scepter#1.

You know full well what i mean, but want to get into the tiniest of details for the sake of having something to argue about.

Oh and about engies, of course you can use pistol’s #3, 4, 5 (which require 10 point for reduced CD), switch to grenades (which requires 30 points and an utility slot), quickly throw #2, 3, 4, 5 (I was talking about BOMBS btw, sorry if you are using the usual gimmick grenade-elixir build), while keeping track of 2-3 enemies fighting against you (all alone) own’em, travel in time to own them once more and maybe fly right? OH! but-but! you’d still be less effective than a necromancer spamming #1, you happy now? (I’m serious about this last statement, and you’d be much less bulky without a doubt, only effective in zergs or surprise attacks).

Because… condition engies are bulky? no
they burst condition? no
they have CCs while not using a rifle? no

Seriously I have over 400 wins on my engi I think it’s you that gotta L2P.

Yes, condition Engis can be bulky. Throw on some Undead runes and a Rabid amulet and see for yourself. Better than that though, they have access to perma swiftness, perma vigor, and 2 stacking sources of regen.

Yes, Engis can condition burst. They were the first to do, by having all damaging conditions available to them prior to this last patch. Nothing has changed in that dept. The only thing that has changed was the survivabilty within the builds that took a huge hit with the elixir R nerf.

Yes, Engis can build for condis and CC. You have your Big Ol Bomb, and Supply Crate, and then you take your OH pistol and trade it for a Shield, if you need more you can slot Flame Thrower for the Knock back as well as the nice perk of its tool belt skill, Incendiary Ammo.

So you’re griping about a weapon auto attack that stacks bleeds? Like your Pistol #1 doesn’t do the same, or Ranger’s Shortbow doesn’t do the same. Yes, Necros have Epidemic and that’s probably one of the most OP skills at the moment for condi cleave, but that seems to have nothing to do with your argument. Honestly, I’m not really sure what you’re carrying on about at all.

And for what it’s worth: I have 1500+ matches on my Engi, and another 1500+ on my Necro, and 2000+ wins.

Blackmoa.3186:

necro is simpyl broken and op atm, everyone who denies that is eitehr bad or in denial.

Lol I didn’t want to use that tone because I don’t have the pvp rank to back it up.
But there you go, Blackmoa has spoken. xD

Rfreak.6591:

@Blaine Tog.8304

Of course pointing out every single weapon that doesn’t have projectiles on #1 makes a point right? no, because they aren’t nearly as effective as necromancer’s scepter#1.

You know full well what i mean, but want to get into the tiniest of details for the sake of having something to argue about.

Your point was that ranged attacks without projectiles are problematic, right? That list was me disagreeing. Not using projectiles is a cool benefit that certain ranged weapons have. Differences like those keep the game interesting.

Rfreak.6591:

Seriously I have over 400 wins on my engi I think it’s you that gotta L2P.

Good for you. But if you find yourself incapable of maintaining situational awareness, that’s a textbook L2P issue.

@hackks.3687

Dude, this isn’t a matter of “can” or “can’t”, the necro can do all of the above, better and faster, if you want a condition-based engineer you may as well switch to necro because it does the same thing but better.

You can’t compare a class that has to go through all the skillbar, throwing everything around and doing miracles while you get outdamaged by a single auto#1.

Are you seriously comparing engi pistol’s #1 to necro’s #1? the simple fact that pistol’s base bleed is 2s makes it sub-par and impossible to stack, what do you want to cover a 3s confusion?

If you want to play engi in a serious pvp perspective you either run condi-grenades and elixirs or power-rifle with heavy CC (with bombs).

@Blaine Tog.8304

You can cast all the CC you want but the sole AoE CC you have is BoB (bombs require traiting).

Fight a 2v1 or a 3v1 in tpvp, win and THEN come back here, honestly you can complain all you want but you can’t fight 3 people with bombs while kiting and keep track of everything, a necro can fight everything and keep track of 4-5 players at once without having to kite at all.

You’re trolling.