Guild Wars 2

Blaine Tog.8304:

Nemesis.8593:

I’ve been recently doing high end TPvP with rank 50s… trust me, we are far from OP. I would go so far as to say we still don’t have a place in TPvP…

Here is where i’ll get the L2P shenanigans…

Let me break it down for you, evade block evade block stealth block block block evade evade 6 second CC focus fire 1 shot + evade block evade block block evade evade… wait… wait… there’s engineer condition immune immune immune immune.

Teams that went pro managed to form team composition and prepare a sequence of attacks in which they are close to invulnerable for 5-10 second interval until they CC lock 1 individual down for 5-10 seconds while bursting him… then they break combat running away with no chance of following…

Then they repeat sequence…
Of course they mesmer portal on top of you, must never forget that.

edit: fast moving combat pew pew with max CC and max stability is what wins at the moment. Necromancer is not fast moving, doesn’t have max stability… and pew pew is laughable.

This is the risk with a profession that’s OP in one specific build but still has its fundamental problems: the meta warps to compensate for that one OP build and then the profession is left without room to maneuver. If the Necro is the “carry” but still doesn’t have sufficient sustain mechanics, people will just build Necro-killer strats and blow through Necro-centric teams.

Necromancer doesn’t carry anything at high level of play… conditions disappear faster then you can add them because of party coordination, they have almost perma stability… because of perma coordination… and like i said, they strike only focus fire max CC then they turtle while speed jumping across the map…

So it’s either block block block invulnerable blink invulnerable portal… or it’s charge charge leap blink and other crap, until they turn around and max CC focus fire you.
All of this while removing all conditions on average every 5 seconds.
It is a nightmare…

If one were to stand somewhere and auto-attack constantly, you you hit about twice in a fight…
With conditions you can kill someone at best in 30 seconds, they reinforce each other on average every 20 seconds… then they turtle and focus… turtle… focus fire… or run + turtle + focus. Of course with chain CC that basically makes you bounce like in a pinball machine.

The things i’ve seen the past 2 days, haven’t seen even in official tournaments.

edit: I might quite playing PvP necromancer all together, there’s simply no room for him in the current high end PvP meta. Stability + mobility + CC > ALL.

Nemesis.8593:

Necromancer doesn’t carry anything at high level of play… conditions disappear faster then you can add them because of party coordination, they have almost perma stability… because of perma coordination… and like i said, they strike only focus fire max CC then they turtle while speed jumping across the map…

So it’s either block block block invulnerable blink invulnerable portal… or it’s charge charge leap blink and other crap, until they turn around and max CC focus fire you.
All of this while removing all conditions on average every 5 seconds.
It is a nightmare…

Case in point.

ManaCraft.5630:

In short, the presence of too many frontloaded elements has the potential to break the balance – or as a minimum the design concept – of a backloaded class. And a.net is pushing the envelope.

Burst is kind of essential for increased skill play, you need to finish players off. Doesn’t mean Necro needs it on the level of a warrior or thief – and we don’t have that – but we need some.

Otherwise just tick, tick, tick, predictable damage, easy to fight against, easy to escape, etc.

The reason they are viewed as OP atm is because they are. They got buffed across the board last patch and with the extra free CC, extra condition damage, Spectral Wall change, wells all got lesser CD’s, Death shroud no longer removes spectral effects, Unholy Feast now boon strips, got increased life force gains, had death shroud buffed, etc.

With such a massive spike in Necromancer power it’s not surprising that it was overdone in some ways. Especially since necros were already known by the experienced to be way better than the general opinion on them was.

In WvW they were already being increasingly used as a core component in groups for example. Now they are a core component of groups you cannot ignore and be competitive without.

Terror builds got pretty significant indirect buffs…

1. Spectral Wall gives you another AoE Fear now, which is a HUGE deal without even considering how long it lasts and how short the CD is (TL;DR: Spectral Wall is OP).

2. Better Life Force generation = more access to Death Shroud = more access to Doom

3. Better Life Force generation = more access to Death Shroud = more access to damage soak (and Condi builds need to be able to stay alive long enough to deal damage).

3. The introduction of Torment buffed Terror builds more than anything else because they just work so ridiculously well together. Torment is a condition so it causes Terror’d Fear to deal extra damage, and Fear forces your enemy to move so it causes Torment to deal extra damage.

That’s not even everything… plenty of the other changes effected Terror builds in a positive way too.

I played Terrormancer frequently before the latest buffs to Necro and thought it was already a very strong build. You can’t just saying “Well the Terror trait didn’t get buffed so how is it OP now?!” because that’s not all the build uses…

There is a lot of emotional responses in this thread. I would like to address just one of those to see where it is really coming from. This is not a personal attack on the poster…it is an analysis of his statements.

Ralathar.7236:

The reason they are viewed as OP atm is because they are.

Why? Because you say they are? There are obviously a lot of people here that disagree with you and offer a lot more evidence to support their case.

They got buffed across the board last patch and with the extra free CC, extra condition damage, Spectral Wall change, wells all got lesser CD’s, Death shroud no longer removes spectral effects, Unholy Feast now boon strips, got increased life force gains, had death shroud buffed, etc.

Keep in mind the devs implemented these changes AND the necros didn’t just pluck them out of the air. And why do you think the devs decided to implement these buffs to the necros? I think they have a lot more data up their sleeves concerning profession balance and viabilities than one person’s potentially lopsided experiences. I doubt they put their hands into the buff lucky-dip barrel. I would tend to back the devs judgement here than what appears to be a disgruntled player.

With such a massive spike in Necromancer power it’s not surprising that it was overdone in some ways. Especially since necros were already known by the experienced to be way better than the general opinion on them was.

This just does not make sense and is purely annecdotal at best. The evidence is in the representation of the professions in all styles of play….not some fabricated “factoid” created to support a particular opinion with emotive language ("massive???).

In WvW they were already being increasingly used as a core component in groups for example. Now they are a core component of groups you cannot ignore and be competitive without.

And exactly what is wrong with necros having a little sunshine at last? We were second lowest on the population stakes (and only marginally above the lowest….older data but all that is publicly available).You seem to be hinting that other classes are not “entitled” to some “following” because they might actually now prove useful in particular circumstances. All scenarios will prove beneficial for one or more professions at times.

Summary: A lot of personal opinion built on annecdotal assumptions that do not stand scrutiny or are prejudice in their own way against the necro class.

Lies. What happens to me represents 100% of reality. That’s what my mommy told me!

Pendragon.8735:

ManaCraft.5630:

In short, the presence of too many frontloaded elements has the potential to break the balance – or as a minimum the design concept – of a backloaded class. And a.net is pushing the envelope.

Burst is kind of essential for increased skill play, you need to finish players off. Doesn’t mean Necro needs it on the level of a warrior or thief – and we don’t have that – but we need some.

Otherwise just tick, tick, tick, predictable damage, easy to fight against, easy to escape, etc.

We don’t need burst, the world of tpvp at large needs less burst. What I’d want from Necromancer is tools to counter burst strategies, which right now we don’t have, and really only certain guardian specs can do reliably. We just have underwhelming attempts at ‘different’ burst styles that are less effective in pvp [dumbfire, I’m looking at you].

Hotjoins, yes – the burning works well because there is no co-ordination, so many professions/specs find it difficult to manage conditions effectively while still being of any use to a team. But look at the archetype meta in higher tpvp; shout guardians [I see many teams who do very well run two], stealthburst thief, shatter mesmer; all you need is the guardian controlling conditions actively and most burst comps can shrug off attempts at prolonging a team fight with conditions/cc while the thief or mesmer tear someone apart without worry.

It might be frustrating when you hit spectral wall, and maybe more frustrating if they spectral grasp you back into it with burning on top, but trust me that troll playstyle doesn’t make waves in tpvp, not against good opponents.

I’m actually glad that our Mandatory bring 1x Necro for res signet is dead in the water, now there is no excuse to not look at the fundamental issues denying Necro from a spot tpvp; burst denial, real tools to deny escape attempts, condition cleanses and condition removals being more of an active choice not passive bleeds slapped onto everything and much less passive removal on all professions.

azuzephyr.7280:

It might be frustrating when you hit spectral wall, and maybe more frustrating if they spectral grasp you back into it with burning on top, but trust me that troll playstyle doesn’t make waves in tpvp, not against good opponents

Others have mentioned it, and this touches on the crux of the issue as well. In a coordinated tPvP environment, it sounds like conditions are basically perma-cleansed. So, like, woe to necros, right?

Well, no.

I will trust you that the troll playstyle doesn’t make waves in tPvP, but it brings me absolutely no comfort. I don’t tPvP. I hotjoin. I never joined leagues in Counter-Strike, I just hotjoined. The public hotjoins. eSports spectators will be hotjoining.

And in hotjoin, that troll playstyle is, for me, the most irritating thing currently in the game. The reason it’s so irritating is because it doesn’t seem to require anything to pull off with significant results. I’ve sunk probably a few hundred hours into Warrior across WvW, sPvP, and PvE. I think I created this notion that all classes need to be on their toes and react quickly to situations or suffer tremendously for failure.

Then I was curious, so I went online and looked at Necro traits in a skill builder. I picked a few that seemed to be what was happening to me/what I had read at a glance at the forums. I made a quick build, threw on scepter/dagger (probably could have picked a better OH, but that isn’t the point), and staff. Didn’t think to look at sigils or runes, and chose the Rabid am/jewel. In the end I was 30/20/0/0/20, slapped together.

I hopped in a game, stood back, and wrecked. I found a few 1v1 situations, and besides a few situations that had my fingers reaching for Warrior keys that didn’t make sense on a Necro, I could manhandle people. If someone was focusing something else, I could stand to the side and just turret bleeds on them. If someone cleansed all of their condis, I really didn’t care, just kept applying.

Again, hotjoin situation. The players aren’t the best players out there, and coordination is mostly nonexistant. However, it felt like absolute child’s play. After a few games, I went running back to my Warrior so I could get some fulfillment out of kills again.

Everyone is mired in a discussion that seems to be attacking necros because they feel OP, while defending necros because their viability is in serious question. No one seems to realize that people are, for all intents and purposes, discussing two completely different games.

I really think the question should be: how do you bring viability in tPvP given the meta/coordination to a class like Necro while still making them fun in hotjoin? For the most part, I don’t respect anything any Necros do in hotjoin, and after playing one, the respect went down even more. I don’t want that. The difference I see in Necros is one between someone who doesn’t know what all their buttons are, and one who does. For basically every other class, I feel like I can tell when someone has the basics down on their class, and when someone really knows their class/situations. I want to appreciate a Necro’s play, but I don’t at all right now.

This feels like the exact same situation as Backstab Thieves, Frenzy/100B Warriors, you name it. The reason these things were issues was because of the fun-vacuum they applied to run-of-the-mill PvP situations, regardless of how easy some were to counter. If anything, the main problem is that this situation is solved more by having coordination and less by just dodging better.

I’ll be interested to see what happens. I don’t have an answer because I don’t play Necro, but I’d love to hear one that takes the balance of tPvP into account alongside the fun of hotjoin (based on whatever defined interpretation of fun may be).

Nemesis.8593:

I’ve been recently doing high end TPvP with rank 50s… trust me, we are far from OP. I would go so far as to say we still don’t have a place in TPvP…

Here is where i’ll get the L2P shenanigans…

Let me break it down for you, evade block evade block stealth block block block evade evade 6 second CC focus fire 1 shot + evade block evade block block evade evade… wait… wait… there’s engineer condition immune immune immune immune.

Teams that went pro managed to form team composition and prepare a sequence of attacks in which they are close to invulnerable for 5-10 second interval until they CC lock 1 individual down for 5-10 seconds while bursting him… then they break combat running away with no chance of following…

Then they repeat sequence…
Of course they mesmer portal on top of you, must never forget that.

edit: fast moving combat pew pew with max CC and max stability is what wins at the moment. Necromancer is not fast moving, doesn’t have max stability… and pew pew is laughable.

I thought I’d see more necromancers in spvp, and surprisingly, I still see more thieves, elementalists, guardians, and mesmers.

2 months ago if I fought with someone they told me, that " hmm I never saw a necro playing this good, you play well with it". Now if I fight with someone they telling that " OMG necros are soooooo OP". The funny thing I didn’t change anything on my build, but I’m became op….

Animi.4617:

2 months ago if I fought with someone they told me, that " hmm I never saw a necro playing this good, you play well with it". Now if I fight with someone they telling that " OMG necros are soooooo OP". The funny thing I didn’t change anything on my build, but I’m became op….

I’m honestly bummed you have to deal with those feels, but when Johnny Anynecro starts flooding PvP with a combo that requires an individual to either be a certain class or focus his entire everything into condi cleanse, frustrations are going to build. Also, if someone hears that Necros might be the slightest bit OP, then they’ll use that as a scapegoat for their own shortcomings way, way, way more often than addressing their inabilities.

You still hear people mention the classics. The other day, one guy in sPvP was complaining another Thief was a heartseeker spamming noob. At least the others in the server had the wherewithall to say “And you’re dying to it 100-0?” Some people will never learn, and you can usually identify those people by what they say/how they say it. However, just because some people complain irresponsibly doesn’t mean there aren’t legitimate complaints about the current mechanics.

Oldbugga.7029:

There is a lot of emotional responses in this thread. I would like to address just one of those to see where it is really coming from. This is not a personal attack on the poster…it is an analysis of his statements.

They got buffed across the board last patch and with the extra free CC, extra condition damage, Spectral Wall change, wells all got lesser CD’s, Death shroud no longer removes spectral effects, Unholy Feast now boon strips, got increased life force gains, had death shroud buffed, etc.

Keep in mind the devs implemented these changes AND the necros didn’t just pluck them out of the air. And why do you think the devs decided to implement these buffs to the necros? I think they have a lot more data up their sleeves concerning profession balance and viabilities than one person’s potentially lopsided experiences. I doubt they put their hands into the buff lucky-dip barrel. I would tend to back the devs judgement here than what appears to be a disgruntled player.

The devs have shown several times that they are not perfect. Biggest in recent memory is arrow carts. They are good, not perfect, and with so many changes the chance of missing the mark a little is pretty high.

With such a massive spike in Necromancer power it’s not surprising that it was overdone in some ways. Especially since necros were already known by the experienced to be way better than the general opinion on them was.

This just does not make sense and is purely annecdotal at best. The evidence is in the representation of the professions in all styles of play….not some fabricated “factoid” created to support a particular opinion with emotive language ("massive???).

The more changes and larger the impact the higher the chance of error. All builds were buffed to some degree in necros and some were buffed quite alot.

And exactly what is wrong with necros having a little sunshine at last? We were second lowest on the population stakes (and only marginally above the lowest….older data but all that is publicly available).You seem to be hinting that other classes are not “entitled” to some “following” because they might actually now prove useful in particular circumstances. All scenarios will prove beneficial for one or more professions at times.

Them not being used was not the result of necros being bad but rather playing a good necro being more difficult than some other classes. At the same time however the meta was already quickly shifting heavily into necros as people were realizing jut how good they really were along with some of the small boosts they received.

Summary: A lot of personal opinion built on annecdotal assumptions that do not stand scrutiny or are prejudice in their own way against the necro class.

I personally find the necro quite effective and it’s one of the easier classes for me to be effective in and stay alive in for WvW. I’ve seen good friends use the necro to great effect before any of these recent patches. I don’t have any prejudice against necro, in fact I quite enjoy necro and encourage people to try them. Or I did until recently, I don’t want people to roll into the bandwagon class and just be angry when it gets nerfed.

People get too attatched to their class. By comparison Elementalist is actually being pushed out of this meta except as field support. Elementalist is my main, but I have enjoyed good standing in the meta for quite some time. If Elementalist becomes alot lesser used that’s fine, we’ve had a good long time in the light.

The goal is to make EVERY class be able to bask in the light, not rotate the meta constantly of which classes get to be in the light at any given time. For exmaple, Rangers, great roamers but totally out of luck in zerg battles. Even thieves have their unique niche and can be more useful in zerg battles I’m afraid. Though it’s certainly not their forte.

Animi.4617:

2 months ago if I fought with someone they told me, that " hmm I never saw a necro playing this good, you play well with it". Now if I fight with someone they telling that " OMG necros are soooooo OP". The funny thing I didn’t change anything on my build, but I’m became op….

While it’s true that you kept your build the same, you undeniably received a fair amount of buffs to your build. Necro buffs were pretty heavy handed and affected all specs, though they affected some more heavily.

I won’t say that necro’s are sooooo OP, but specific aspects of necro’s are currently a little too good in WvW. There are alot of things you can leverage in WvW that you cannot in sPVP.

Ralathar.7236:

Animi.4617:

2 months ago if I fought with someone they told me, that " hmm I never saw a necro playing this good, you play well with it". Now if I fight with someone they telling that " OMG necros are soooooo OP". The funny thing I didn’t change anything on my build, but I’m became op….

While it’s true that you kept your build the same, you undeniably received a fair amount of buffs to your build. Necro buffs were pretty heavy handed and affected all specs, though they affected some more heavily.

I won’t say that necro’s are sooooo OP, but specific aspects of necro’s are currently a little too good in WvW. There are alot of things you can leverage in WvW that you cannot in sPVP.

Balance around WvW is a bad idea unless they plan to cut it out from PVE and SPVP specifically. Right now the most effective thing necros do in WvW is mass chilling, and some AOE boon removal to counter stability spamming. Whatever feels overpowered in roaming and havoc groups is largely meaningless (see thieves and the over-balanced mess they are in that situation with stealth).

I can tell you that right now, none of the things you are thinking of that are overpowered, are actually resulting in huge imbalances where it matters in WvW, which is in the very large scale engagements.

Remember when they massively nerfed retaliation and confusion? That was because every big zerg was running nothing but that. Now that those are less effective, you see “heavy trains”, which leverage stability and stuns, and autoattacks with zerker gear and on kill healing effects.

The necro helps to counter the heavy train, and that is about it. But that has nothing to do with terror, or burning, or epidemic, or anything people are upset about. Chilling darkness, ranged wells, WOD, WOC, and spectral wall are how we contribute in zergs, which is what WvW revolves around.

I think it is all a moot point though, because they don’t balance around WvW at all, other than the heavy handed nerf to confusion and retalation because they were being horribly abused.

Rennoko.5731:

Balance around WvW is a bad idea unless they plan to cut it out from PVE and SPVP specifically.

[snip]

I think it is all a moot point though, because they don’t balance around WvW at all, other than the heavy handed nerf to confusion and retalation because they were being horribly abused.

They have already directly stated that they are balancing the 3 modes independently not too long back. They didn’t when the game was released because they didn’t anticipate the popularity of WvW. They acknowledged this was a screw up on their part.

Also you forgot to mention marks. It’s rare to see a battle go by vs a good group without a dozen marks being left on the ground afterwards. Remember that you can self combo weakness with your marks.

The Necromancer really needs a nerf. I think it will be done. But when ? No one can today beat a condition necro.
A.net has maybe now to react about this issue!…

Deltana.9082:

The Necromancer really needs a nerf. I think it will be done. But when ? No one can today beat a condition necro.
A.net has maybe now to react about this issue!…

Statements like this will NOT encourage ANet to spend thousands of dollars changing the necro meta. You need more than just personal opinion. I am not having a go at your opinion, BUT I am saying if you want your opinion to carry any weight in swaying the devs then you will need to provide some substantial proof/evidence that is more than just personal opinion.

And keep in mind that they might actually intend to “rotate” profressions around the top damage, play styles. Just because there has been a shift in the relative status of some professions, doesn’t necessarily mean it is not intentional or an error on their behalf. I would tend to believe it may be intentional in this case given our previous state/ranking.

It’s bewildering so many people are still denying necromancers are overpowered while high-rated players are getting bored of the class and saying it’s ruined because it’s so overpowered and thoughtless now.

Deltana.9082:

The Necromancer really needs a nerf. I think it will be done. But when ? No one can today beat a condition necro.
A.net has maybe now to react about this issue!…

No one can beat a condition Necro? lol …

i will leave this here

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Current-state-of-the-meta

xeph has a good write up

I still think necros are not Op but let see what most people think is the problem with them.

Dhuumfire → maybe I shoiuld change it too for dealing burn in every 20 sec not in every 10 sec however this trait point in the Power trait line wich means you get a lot of power what you dont need, if you are a condi necro. If you are a power necro then you wont deal so much dmg with Dhuumfire trait cos you dont have condi dmg.

Terror → a lot of people have problem with it because now necros have more fear wich with they can deal dmg. Maybe I should (If I were a dev) remowe the “+50% dmg if the opponent has another condi” effect. However this trait point can be counter with stability so easily so you wont get any dmg at all or with break stun skills too.

Tainted Shackles → I think this new skill is very balanced cos its easily can be dodged or counter with any leaping skill. Just go away from the necro.

Greater Mark → Usually people dont have a problem with it I just write it here cos if it would be moved from Adept to Master than it would break the 30/30/10 build.

These are not suggestions, it’s only my opinion for what would I do if I were a developer and also as I said necros aren’t really that Op.

I’m rank1 with 1 bar filled only so you know how much experience I have in pvp.

Sunday I had some fun with guildies. Most of them have more pvp experience than me (ofc). I put together a 30/20/10/0/10. There are mesmer, warrior, thief, ele, engi, necro and somehow I managed to them effortlessly. I don’t know if necro really is OP, or they suck or I have soooo much potential in pvp lol.

But whatever they do balancing pvp, please don’t mess up (more) in pve……it’s all I care.