Guild Wars 2

as the title says, give axe 900 range like all other midrange weapons,. also it could go with a blast finisher or something,. maybe more dmg? OH reduce cast time on spinal shivers pls and mb a small dmg increase to ;d

I think a more appropriate title would be “axe and focus need a buff”. Though I agree, the Axe either needs a damage increase on the auto attack or a range increase and the focus #5 is incredibly situational. The low damage and chill don’t make it useful enough for any instances outside of the boon removal. Especially with the atrocious cast time.

long chill and boon removal with always be useful. id love to see the cast time reduced though >.<

I honestly just don’t think Necro axe has found it’s niche yet. At least when it comes to PvP. If I que with another dmg oriented class the vuln stacking alone will drop targets crazy fast. With axe/focus you can get a 20 stack vuln no problem, plus retal & cripple, boon remove + chill, and the fastest life force gain possible.

I think a lot of people want/expect it to be a front-loaded burst weapon though it functions best as a set up to another weapon. Which lies the other problem. There’s nothing really for it to set up except for dagger #1 spam, and DS #1 and #4.

Axe works pretty well, the problem is, some bugs allow other classes to avoid retaliation which pretty much defeats the core functionality of using an axe build.

Once the retaliation bugs get worked out Axe will not seem underpowered at all.

Also @people hating on focus 5 should stand closer to their targets while using focus 4 and rethink your arguments.

Axe 1 dps relies on minions and other allies, doing more that other weapons with them and doing less without them.
Axe 3 can give players consistant retaliation against groups of enemies and you can do a passive 450 damage to an enemy every time that enemy hits you. Yes, that means if another necromancer was attacking you with an axe, do nothing and you will defeat him. It also cripples and has a large radius for perks.
Axe 2 is the filler that gives life force.

The weapon seems balanced. If you look at the dps of other weapons you should see that it is not that different. The Axe scales with the same amount of power and crit as everything else so it probably does not need a buff. Axe also has the best trait of all weapons increasing both damage and cooldown reduction.

I would agree that maybe a change is needed such as moving Axe Training trait to Master to be accessible to more builds that want to use axe.

The big thing about axe is its instant nature. You got a 600 range attack with no visible projectile whatsoever. Let it stay 600 range, cause a 900 range instant attack would be too powerful. About the damage, that can be changed tho :>

edit: At above:
Necro trait lines need some juggling anyway. It’s the most narrowed down thing in the whole game. You need to specialize exclusively for one thing or it won’t work out anyway.

i agree, axe could use some love. i know friends who like the range over damage factor, but i’ve found it to be a little too weak in damage for my tastes.

XiL.4318:

Also @people hating on focus 5 should stand closer to their targets while using focus 4 and rethink your arguments.

That has nothing to do with focus 5. That’s simply stating the power of focus 4 in a close combat situation.

Talset.1456:

Axe 1 dps relies on minions and other allies, doing more that other weapons with them and doing less without them.

The weapon seems balanced. If you look at the dps of other weapons you should see that it is not that different. The Axe scales with the same amount of power and crit as everything else so it probably does not need a buff. Axe also has the best trait of all weapons increasing both damage and cooldown reduction.

I would agree that maybe a change is needed such as moving Axe Training trait to Master to be accessible to more builds that want to use axe.

The thing about vulnerability is that the damage it gives is lower than you would think as it’s based on the enemies hp.

Let’s say you’re fighting an elementalist with 15k HP. you apply vulnerability with the axe and get all the bounces of your focus #4. In total you get about 20 stacks on vulnerability. you then deal about 6-8k damage to the ele through minions and axe #2 channel.

Even in this scenario, all that vulnerability only attributed to about 1.2k-1.6k damage as opposed to you applying more generally useful effects on the enemy such as chill, poison, or weakness (all are very common conditions the necromancer applies). which give a 66% cooldown increase and 66% movement speed decrease, 33% healing reduction, or 25% damage reduction (ignoring criticals or conditions) which can all add up to more of a health difference in battle.

On average, the axe might maintain 8-9 stacks of might if you constantly auto attack. On this ele if you were to only auto attack this would only add up to about 900 damage difference. As opposed to if you were to use a scepter and apply bleeding and poison that after 2 auto attack comboes gives more of a damage difference. Mind you the inverse is true, in that if the enemy had 3k health instead, that would add up to a 1.8k health difference which the scepter wouldn’t out-preform in a power build in 2 auto attack chains.

However, over the course of a fight you won’t be only auto attacking, and the scepter necro won’t stop auto attacking after 2 chains to simply let the axe necro catch up. if the axe necro stops to cast another spell the vulnerability stacks decrease, and the benefit to damage is lessened. Even in the best case scenario of the enemy having a high HP the axe vulnerability is still out preformed by the scepter (which has a longer range and is also instant) both in instances of maintaining their respective conditions and if they stop to do other spells.

In general vulnerability is over sold. Even the respective inverse of it, protection, is a flat 33%. This is more than if you were to have even the maximum ammount of vulnerability and is much easier to apply.

The only real benefit to vulnerability I can see is that in a power build, it is a decent cover condition since it is constantly applied through the axe protecting things like weakness, poison, chill, and cripple from the passive condition removals.

naphack.9346:

The big thing about axe is its instant nature. You got a 600 range attack with no visible projectile whatsoever. Let it stay 600 range, cause a 900 range instant attack would be too powerful. About the damage, that can be changed tho :>

edit: At above:
Necro trait lines need some juggling anyway. It’s the most narrowed down thing in the whole game. You need to specialize exclusively for one thing or it won’t work out anyway.

I agree, it seems odd to me that axe training is a grand master trait of all things.

The thing with vulnerability: not only you do more damage, everyone else does too.

shizo.5698:

The thing with vulnerability: not only you do more damage, everyone else does too.

this.

and 15 more characters

Talset.1456:

Axe 1 dps relies on minions and other allies, doing more that other weapons with them and doing less without them.
Axe 3 can give players consistant retaliation against groups of enemies and you can do a passive 450 damage to an enemy every time that enemy hits you. Yes, that means if another necromancer was attacking you with an axe, do nothing and you will defeat him. It also cripples and has a large radius for perks.
Axe 2 is the filler that gives life force.

The weapon seems balanced. If you look at the dps of other weapons you should see that it is not that different. The Axe scales with the same amount of power and crit as everything else so it probably does not need a buff. Axe also has the best trait of all weapons increasing both damage and cooldown reduction.

I would agree that maybe a change is needed such as moving Axe Training trait to Master to be accessible to more builds that want to use axe.

I got a Powermancer kindof build, and I do more damage with my scepter then my axe. Only if I crit a lot, I can get more with Axe. And that’s with really low condition damage.

I tested Axe for about 2 weeks, and I tested every weapon for a long time, with multiple build.

Axe is the weakest of them. It’s not useless, it’s still viable. But you can go Dagger and be a lot more useful.

Here my opinion :

• Axe are 600 range, that’s only for the show, because you’re mostly at melee range. You might as well go Dagger and double your damage dps. Not like you can kit somoene with Axe. Most good player will jump the 600 gap right away.

• Axe seems to be a weapon for MM necro. Sadly, since our Minions AI is bugged, this is our weak build. Since 70% of the time, our minions don’t attack, that a waste for our vulnerability.

• Vulnerability debuff, it need a lot of stack to be useful. It used to be different during beta, but they changed it. I really don’t think it’s as useful as others conds.

• The #1 skill of axe seems to be lacking. Really, no combo, poor range, only one effect and average damage. Add a combo, and this weapon become viable.

• Axe training traits placement. The worse place ever, and it’s hard to change it for somewhere else. If you transfer it to master, MM won’t be able to take the 30% more damage from minion. If you transfer it to novice, you lose the focus training. I think a buff to Axe Training so it would be on par with 20% more damage at 50% trtaits would be good.

Overall, after testing it a lot (I loved the axe idea), I take dagger over Axe anytime.

I quite like the axe, been loving it since i switched to a life stealing build. I highly recommend you guys at least give it ago. Nice weapon for when things get too hot in the melee and you need some breathing room.

Saying the axe is a MM weapon is like saying the Dagger is a MM weapon because if you trait you can do vamp and get armor per minion… It’s a mid damage direct damage weapon…. It’s no.1 is the main issue along with the shorter then average mid range…. I make some suggestions to change it here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Suggestions-for-the-axe/first#post911572 The damage on the Axe doesn’t exactly need a buff it’s mainly that the no.1 feels so weak due to it being 2 small hits making the damage seem low…. That suggestion gives it a 2 small weak hits – medium hit – hard hit feeling without actually breaking the class and giving it a more sustained damage feeling…. The range also helps it out in most situations…. Comment there if possible as it sounds more viable then a flat out damage buff.

@Dakiaris

The reason why Axe is considered a MM weapon more then any other, is the vuln stacking.

This is the only way to boost our minions damage other then the spite trait.

That’s why most people consider it a MM weapon.

Axe is a melee/direct dmg assist/set-up weapon. This MM example merely has Minions fulfilling the role that teammates could do just as well, if not better.

Kardiamond.6952:

@Dakiaris

The reason why Axe is considered a MM weapon more then any other, is the vuln stacking.

This is the only way to boost our minions damage other then the spite trait.

That’s why most people consider it a MM weapon.

It’s considered a MM weapon because of the fact the MM 30% damage is in the same line as the axe… Honestly they need to move that to the MM tree so people stop considering it a MM weapon.

Vuln stacking is on multiple weapons in the game gs warrior/sword mes and axe necro Most people are just tagging it as a MM weapon because of the fact it has vulnerability stacking….. I don’t know if you know this but the dagger has a 3 second Immobilize and paired with the focus you can actually cc something and deal more damage as a mm then with the axe…. Everything about the Dagger is more suited to MM as are the traits armor based on minions up % toughness = power… People are just using the It’s a MM weapon to try and distract people from the fact the dagger fits that role quiet a bit better…. The axe is supposed to be our mid range direct damage weapon that does ok sustained with moderate burst from the no.2… Right now what makes it feel like it’s limited to MM is the fact the no.1 feels weak and the vulnerability stacking seems like it’s best used for that… Though as stated by me before it’s not enough of a damage boost over the dagger to justify calling it a MM weapon.. Give my post a read and tell me what you think…

edit
If this came off jumbled or doesn’t make sense just ignore it I have issues putting my thoughts into words… I’ve done extensive testing with the axe / dagger and minions and it just doesn’t justify why people say axe is a MM weapon when the dagger out preforms it by a long shot.

I hope that your teamates does a better job then your minions. No kidding.

I think we agree to disagree.

I don’t understand what dagger abilities have to do with minions?

And if you’re using an axe in one MH, why wouldn’t you use dagger in the other main hand as the two obviously have the most synergy of the mainhand options where Axe is concerned.

This thread is showing some very narrow views of how to build a necro. I stand by my earliest comment that Necros still have no idea what to do with the Axe.

@Dakiaris

Sure Dagger outperform Axe right now for a MM, but that’s only because Dagger is a better weapon in most situation. We can agree on this.

Minions aren’t affected by our stats, so a logic statement would be to : Stack defensive stats, so we survive longer and our minions does damage.

You can have 0 power, and your minions will do the same damage. That’s the advantage of a bunker MM necro. Sadly our AI suck right now, but it would be good.

Going bunker, Dagger isn’t the best suited weapon. With Axe #3, you can get a really long retaliation buff. It will do a bit of damage. You can also freely stack vuln to damage your ennemies faster. Axe off hand also provide us with a chain heal and a long lasting slow.

But Dagger #2 also heal, so it’s a good MM weapon too.

You don’t have to use Axe with MM, but I think we can see a sinergy between Axe and MM.

Also, if it’s not a MM weapon, when do you use it? Powermancer? No powermancer would use it over Dagger.

No worries, I also have a hard time putting my thought into word. Sometime when I reread myself, it awful.

hackks.3687:

I don’t understand what dagger abilities have to do with minions?

And if you’re using an axe in one MH, why wouldn’t you use dagger in the other main hand as the two obviously have the most synergy of the mainhand options where Axe is concerned.

This thread is showing some very narrow views of how to build a necro. I stand by my earliest comment that Necros still have no idea what to do with the Axe.

There’s multiple situations you need to be further then melee range and the axe at 600 usually just isn’t enough… It’s best to have scepter or staff as your off weapon for those situations. In pvp yea that’s fine running both though not all that effective… But in pve in group events or dungeons it’s just not good to run that way… I think you don’t understand how to build a necro if you’re focusing on all close and mid range when there’s so many encounters that require you to switch from mid to long range… And daggers as I said do more damage + no.3 holds the target in place for 3 seconds so your minions don’t chase them around…

My point is all weapons could technicly be considered MM weapons the axe is no different… But the axe isn’t pidgen holed into that 1 role…. I main a power/crit damage / survival balance build in pve and I run bip and sig of undeath… The 3rd I swap out between a few abilities… I do a decent amount of sustained damage with my axe and have staff for those long range encounters…. I focus mainly on axe/death shroud though….

1 key thing people seem to miss when you’re playing in death shroud… If you have the axe traits the damage is applied to death shroud meaning you hit harder with that then if you were using the staff. I do this all the time get on average 6k life blasts above 50% and 3k below this is based on giganticus lupicus in Arrah exp The ranged rez and self buff is good and I swap out my 3rd ability depending on the situation….. Most people think I suck just because I focus on this build but honestly it’s fine…. The animation when out of death shroud though is just annoying…. you flail your arm back and fourth… A chain and a little range is all that’s needed to fix the weapon.

Anyways that was off topic I know… Just saying I’m a Axe necro main.

striker.3704:

XiL.4318:

Also @people hating on focus 5 should stand closer to their targets while using focus 4 and rethink your arguments.

That has nothing to do with focus 5. That’s simply stating the power of focus 4 in a close combat situation.

Chill is a gap closer that also slows skill use. It closes the gap AND makes it safer to be that close. Necro who don’t know this are probably doing it wrong and casting focus 4 from range or wasting immobilize and having their target cure and dodge away. Unless they Q hot matches all day long against R1s. But then who cares. I can farm R1s naked with no traits.

THIS IS SIMPLY STATING: you no meaning my understand.

Dakiaris.2798:

Kardiamond.6952:

@Dakiaris

The reason why Axe is considered a MM weapon more then any other, is the vuln stacking.

This is the only way to boost our minions damage other then the spite trait.

That’s why most people consider it a MM weapon.

It’s considered a MM weapon because of the fact the MM 30% damage is in the same line as the axe… Honestly they need to move that to the MM tree so people stop considering it a MM weapon.

Oh kitten no, that would be terrible.

striker.3704:

Oh kitten no, that would be terrible.

I was talking about the 30% minion damage back to the minion tree instead of having it on the tree that has the axe…. Move the axe trait to T2 and move the minion 30% damage to T2 death magic… It was like that during the beta weekends idk why they changed it.

Dakiaris.2798:

striker.3704:

Oh kitten no, that would be terrible.

I was talking about the 30% minion damage back to the minion tree instead of having it on the tree that has the axe…. Move the axe trait to T2 and move the minion 30% damage to T2 death magic… It was like that during the beta weekends idk why they changed it.

Exactly, that’s what I think is so terrible. If you put training of the master on the death magic tree it would cram too much into one tree, and it would basically force all pure minion masters to go 10/0/30/30/0.

Spreading traits across multiple trees is a good thing as it allows people to spread out their builds and create diversity. In fact at some point in the future I’d like to see it get to the point where all trees have something to offer each build type.

Give Axe #1 cleave range, and change the axe training bonus to 20% instead of ~10%. Fixed.

I’m not going to argue over opinions of how terrible it would be to have the 30% minion damage back in the death tree or anything… The game at the moment only has minimal impact from traits so builds are more or less small tweaks to a pre set weapon and a few useful utility skills which in most cases are very very situational..

Anyway back on topic of the axe… The only parts of the axe that need love are the no.1 getting a chain and the no1 and 2 getting 100-150 extra range…. The damage on no.2 is fine as is and gets a good boost with the grand master axe trait… The no.1 getting a chain is needed since most players feel like it’s weak because the damage is divided into 2 hits so it’s 2 small hits which feel very weak…

Here’s the chain for no.1 I was suggesting in my thread.

Rending Claws – 2 hits for 236 total + 2 stacks of vulnerability 5 seconds 3/4 second attack

Agonizing Claws – 1 hit for 236 + 1 stack of vulnerability 5 seconds same damage in 1 hit so that it feels larger but is not 3/4 second attack

Reap Impurities – 1 hit for 260 + small life siphon basesd on each condition on the target… Allow the +50% siphon to affect it… You could have it do 25 siphon per condition so the trait would make it 37 per… 1 second attack 1/4 longer due to the damage boost

That being the chain for no.1 would make it feel like it’s doing more damage when it’s only really hitting harder on the final hit which has a slightly longer attack speed…. The chain would make it so you can’t sustain 10 stacks of vuln just auto attacking but sustaining 5-7 stacks I think would be better if you had a chain that had a slightly harder hitting last hit anyway…

The other suggestion I made was to add 100-150 bonus range to the axe just to give it more viability in more situations like wvw… I honestly don’t think it should have 900 range like the scepter because it’s more of a mid range direct damage weapon… Having 700-750 range on the no.1 and 2 would solve most issues… No.3 I don’t think needs a damage boost just because of how it functions…

Also on a random side note I don’t know why people hate the life siphon traits…. 25 damage – 37 traited… That doesn’t seem like much and while I admit it doesn’t give much health that’s still free damage that procs on all damage you do…. The axe no.2 hits 8 times which is 200 free damage on top of the final numbers… or 296 when traited… While that doesn’t sound all that astounding I still prefer it as it is since it adds a small amount of sustained damage to things like death shroud and auto attacks… The only time I find it useless is with slower attacking weapons.

Because when you leave the level 11 areas and start hitting for more than 200 per hit, suddenly 25 per hit doesn’t seem all that significant.

Don’t worry, you’ll understand someday.

Manticore Five.9867:

Because when you leave the level 11 areas and start hitting for more than 200 per hit, suddenly 25 per hit doesn’t seem all that significant.

Don’t worry, you’ll understand someday.

The life siphon traits are just bonus damage with a tiny heal… Based on attack rates it’s a solid increase in dps… At 80 siphoning does 25 flat damage can’t be negated axe does 2 hits per auto attack in 3/4 of a second with 0 flight time so it’s instant….. The damage comes up to be around 50 dps bonus and traited 74ish dps just on autos… Doesn’t seem like much but it’s a constant dps boost that’s not affected by armor… The suggestion I made for the 3rd hit would do a natural 10% more damage due to the base damage buff but also get 25-37 life siphon based on the number of conditions on the target… So it would be a good sustained boost… Nothing massive but it would give axe that extra little umph it needs to feel more powerful…

As it stands the axe actually has ok scaling and everything like I said it just feels weak due to the no.1 being 2 hits for 1/2 damage instead of 1 hit for all the damage..

Guess what else can’t be negated?

The 30x more damage that you’ll get for hitting a target with retal up.

It doesn’t seem like much, because it isn’t much. There is no amount of explaining or excusing or logic-ignoring you can do to pretend that in any universe that has math, a trait can do the same damage at L1 as it does at L80 and not be completely broken at some point in that continuum.

Fanboyism can be subtle. This isn’t.

It scales based on the level… It’s not 25 all the time it’s 25 at level 80… And you seem to not realize you are attacking causing the damage….. Retaliation only does the damage if you’re being attacked…. I don’t think the 2 are comparable at all.

The trait sucks for scepters/staffs true but for any rapid attacks axe/dagger it’s a good trait for bonus dps.

You mean dagger 2 and axe 2, not axe/dagger, because that would imply the other skills on those weapons are rapid, which they aren’t (dagger auto might qualify depending on how much you want to stretch the truth).

It’s clear you aren’t doing the math, because anyone who saw an explicitly listed “One of your Axe attacks does 3% more damage)” listed as a trait selection would run far, far away before selecting it.

Oh, and dagger 2 and axe 2 aren’t even rapid. They’re bursty, which isn’t the same thing.

The auto attack on the axe is 2 attacks per 3/4 second… The dagger 2 attacks for 1/4 a second , 1 attack 1/4 and 1 attack for 1/2… total of 4 attacks in 1 second… Idk why you don’t consider that rapid attacking even though most weapons are 3/4 a second for 1 hit…. The dagger gets more use out of it the axe is 2nd…. The daggers no.2 is actually isn’t as rapid as the auto attack… The axe no.2 is good damage + rapid so… yea…. You just seem to want big numbers go to the other classes for that.

Well, yes. I do want big numbers. Because big numbers make mobs fall down, and small numbers make them giggle.

Lots of small numbers do just as good as 1 big number…….. People seem to forget that.

Only if the lots of small numbers add up to a big number, and that’s the part you’re forgetting.

Now I know you’re just trolling so good bye I’m going to go back to playing my axe necro… You can have fun doing what ever it is you trolls do.

Ohhh….. K.

Future debaters please note: Asking someone to prove that 200 damage every 10 seconds(axe 2)+ 266 TOTAL for the next 8 seconds of cooldown(axe 1) doesn’t = BIG BIG DAMAGE is now trolling.

Axe is good for group fights. That vulnerability really helps team damage. However if it is soloing, or you didn’t max the trait for power, it would be pretty weak.

So use axe when fighting a single boss with other players.

Axe shines better when you have a good secondary weapon so you can do axe 2 and 3 + offhands and immediately switch. Axe 1 might have been good before the vuln nerf, but anet has this pattern of nerfing something then not compensating the skills they affect for the loss.

If you nail all 5 targets with axe 3, the retal will last until the skill comes back up.

Manticore Five.9867:

Ohhh….. K.

Future debaters please note: Asking someone to prove that 200 damage every 10 seconds(axe 2)+ 266 TOTAL for the next 8 seconds of cooldown(axe 1) doesn’t = BIG BIG DAMAGE is now trolling.

My auto attacks are usually 550-650 non crit 1100-1200 crit per strike so between 1500-2400 damage.I average around 1.5-2k dps on just my no.1 . so around 1600 dps. That’s not factoring in the 37 bonus damage per hit auto is 2 hits so 74 bonus dps. Again it’s not much but it’s free damage tacked onto it that does up the overall dps…

The axe is supposed to be SUSTAINED DPS with small channeled bursts from no.2…. My suggestion I made in another thread would fix how no.1 feels because instead of just the 2 small hits it would have the 2nd attack being as much as both of the first hits combined followed by a slightly stronger 3rd hit… it would give the no.1 a feeling of power while using it instead of the 2 small hits.

I don’t know why you’re complaining about the axe as it is…. Honestly I deal the same dps as I did with a condition spec so I don’t see any issues…. My only issue is how the no.1 doesn’t feel powerful even though it’s decent dps.

yea i have to agree with original poster. fix range on axe and dagger.
axe is 600 it should be 900
dagger is 120(wtf way too low) it should be 300

You’re acting like I use the +50% siphon for only the minor trait… I use it because I usually run signet of locusts with the trait you can full heal on 5 targets and 1/2 on 2-3 and the downed no.1 + life from the tree itself… I don’t get why you’re so worked up on the damage also…. yes 37 damage isn’t much but when you factor in the healing from the blood tree it heals you for 38-39 each hit… Axe auto is 2 hits per 3/4 second so you’re healing about as much as regeneration every hit and since regeneration doesn’t get stronger outside of healing power it’s a decent bit… You seem to only be focused on the damage it does but I’m looking at the overall utility it does… As a minor trait it’s one of the better ones in the game….

I see you as a player who focuses on 100% offense and doesn’t care about defense… It’s easy to tell that with how rude you are and how you’re not looking at anything other then the damage it does…. I’ve been trying to point out it does ok damage and works well with the axe… All you’ve accomplished is coming off as a royal kitten and talking down to me as if you know everything.

I did the testing a bit ago, Scepter does more damage then axe in a power build.

The buff to axe number two did help but the issue is how terrible axe auto attack is.

Axe is useless.

Lets accept your numbers. 37 is what percent of 650? That’s right… 6%. And that’s if you round up. Oh, and it doesn’t crit or benefit from or contribute to any other form of damage. You’d be better off with a single strike of might, a single proc of retri, or literally a single serving of any other damage source that exists in the game.

I think you can’t look past the fact that it’s free to arrive at the fact that it’s useless.

And no, the trait is NOT free. If it was free you wouldn’t have to click the points button to get it. The rational way to evaluate it is to count both the major and the minor as the cost of 10 points.

If the trait literally read “+5% damage with axes”, it would be a better trait, because at least that damage can be calced into crits or buffed with might. But if it DID read “+5% damage with axes”, no one would pick it if they had a choice.