Guild Wars 2

Robert Hrouda.1327:

VitalSuit.1980:

Thieves as well? I hope this is only for pve and not pvp because thieves are the last thing that needs a buff.

Most thieves don’t make it out of the lower tiers because you can mitigate them very easily. As a ranger I shut thieves down all the time who don’t use venoms, especially if you have something like healing spring and Lightning reflexes. One fixes stun, one fixes immob/cripple, and then it’s just dodge rolls at the right moment and CC to shut them down. Also bring wolf for f2 and stay nearby when thieves start doing their stealthy bit, and then be ready to watch them flee in terror.
That of course means their build options are highly limited, and when that happens people can hard counter you more easily.

The changes for rangers coming in this next patch are a step in the right direction for them. I am not part of that team so I won’t be announcing any of the changes unless told otherwise.

Exactly this.
Why are Thieves mostly easymode(whether my LB/GS full zerk ranger can fend off a backstab thief depends entirely on whether my skills just happen to be on cooldown) while Mesmers are extremely difficult to deal with?
Clones? Confusion? Don’t make me laugh. The reason is that Mesmers are unpredictable, cause they got a bootload of entirely different builds from full support over glamour over clone spam over phantasms to shatter burst… Often times, you only know what you are up against when half your hp is already missing. Thieves? Either they are cond thieves or they are backstab thieves with the odd sword control thief here and there… And that is something, you can usually see at the first glance… And honestly, fighting a thief is a bit like fighting a bull. You just lead their predictable attacks into nothing, counter and burst for the kill.

I would much rather see a significant mesmer and thief nerf then a ranger buff . LOL

The reduced aoe damage could work. Seemed to workout in Wow. Though skills work differently in this game so it might be harder to classify what is aoe and what isn’t. Especially since most abilities can hit more than one target. Perhaps something linked to swapping like reduced damage for X seconds after swapping. Or shorten the swapping cd in general.

IMHO, rangers not being desired in dungeons is entirely due to the players themselves and not the class at all. The class has a few issues in Arah (all with the pet), but not other dungeons.

What are players doing and why don’t people want them? Well, if I see a ranger using a Long Bow and Bear, I’m ready to punt them from the group. That’s pretty much the lowest contribution (worst dps/etc) setup you can bring. Bear/lbow rangers seem to have other bad habits, too, such as a tendency to knock things back at very inappropriate times, destroying the group’s DPS efforts.

I think rangers could use some changes to make them more interesting to play (they’re basically auto-attack bots now), but absolutely should not be buffed up for PvE. The class is already right up there with warrior as the most over-powered PvE class around. Pets easily solo open world veterans and tank all the non-group champions with ranger help. Just how much stronger does the class need to be?

Chokolata.1870:

I would much rather see a significant mesmer and thief nerf then a ranger buff . LOL

Which part of mesmers needs a significant nerf?
Just tell me one particular thing about a particular build which needs a nerf.
You gotta see, the only problem with mesmers is the fact, they actually WORK the way, they are supposed to, while most other professions do not.

Just look at:
Ele: Weapon sets, traitlines… In the case of the ele, it might even boil down to D/D being OP rather then the rest being UP.
Thief: Traps and all the tactical awesomeness you are supposed to be able to do (efficiently)
Ranger: Spirits and supportive builds, versatile BM builds, …
Engineer: The good news: Almost no build is really less viable than the rest, with HGH builds being slightly on the top. The bad news: Engi as a whole needs some loving.
Warrior: See engineer, replace HGH with GS.
Necro: The trait system might need a complete rework. Some tweaking is certainly required.

Guardian is working fine, might need some nerf here and there and a tweak on spirit weapons.

The thing about Mesmers is not that they are op in any way. The problem is, that they need to burn away half of your hp before you can figure out what they are up to, cause there is so many different Mezz builds out there while all the other classes are pretty much predictable.
If all the classes worked as intended, Mesmers wouldn’t stand out as much anymore.
For example, if you couldn’t tell at first glance, what the thief, you are facing, is gonna try to do, … If you didn’t know whether the ele might not suddenly burst out 2 arcane spells and kill you within seconds, instead of being a cantrip bunker, …
I can continue the list endlessly, fact remains, mesmers are the only class with more than 3 working builds and the builds actually are entirely different regarding how you need to counter them.
The way to fix this problem, however is not crippling mesmers to one viable build(I don’t wanna fight only shatter burst mesmers, seriously, as annoying as confusion etc is, the thing I hate the most is actually shatter burst) but fixing other classes, so they have more than one viable build or, in case of engi and warriors, raising the class as a whole by a level or two, so they can compete on even footing.

Thieves the fact that they can stealth so much and unload so much damage in a split second , totally fine in PvP but completely ridiculous in WvW with all the min-maxing going on .

Mesmer confusion stacking .

how’s that a problem with mesmers?
I’d say it’s a problem with the confusion condition.

Just like all the “nerf warriors, nerf golem rushing, nerf thief burst” cries which were “fixed” by nerfing quickness(and throwing rangers further into the gutter).

Thieves were not nerfed . In no game ever, especially RTS games would a fast mobile class or faction be given high damage . Usually the slowest option would do the most damage … because it is slow and avoidable .

Thieves have unparalleled mobility and damage , and an good escape mechanisms . Hence they are OP .

Thieves die as soon as you as much as look at them.
To make up for that, they will have to sacrifice huge chunks of their “op” damage.
Really. If you have problems fighting a thief, just look at the predictable course of their attacks. You can lead a thief into blowing his attacks into thin air like a matador leads the bull to charge right past him.
To learn to fight against thieves:
First step is reacting.
Second step is a preemptive reaction before they even strike.
And the third step is making them attack you right where you got a counter prepared.
Just wait, till Anet actually FIXES thieves, so they have more options, then you can start crying. For now, thieves are pretty much straightforward and easy to deal with unless you are fighting multiple opponents, where it can happen, you get your priorities wrong and the thief gibs you.
But that’s that and this is this: Thieves are not op. Solo, they are easy to deal with, in group fights, they are worthless either way.
Chain some CC and damage and they are dead. Make them waste their initiative and they are useless for the moment.
Sure, they can retreat and reengage again, but that only means, they give you time to prepare for their next attack.

Eh no they dont . And they can choose when to fight . You must be thinking about the brainless HS spammers

And?
If you are always prepared, it doesn’t matter when they choose to attack you.
They can wag their tail, looking for an opening all day long, cause I can do something useful while they do absolutely nothing.
No matter, how you look at it, the game is about using your time efficiently. A thief may kill you in the end, if he has patience and waits for the right moment, but he was useless all that time.
If he just jumps at you, he dies, if he chooses, when to engage, you dictate, under which conditions he can do so.
If he chooses not to fight, then that’s that, your win. If you drive him off, he wasted time stalking you while accomplishing nothing. Your win. If you actually kill him, it’s your win either way.
No matter how, a thief will have to come at you and at that moment it doesn’t matter what build he has, you just have to be ready and beat him down.
Already a greatsword is devastating to the thief. Don’t wanna start with condition bunker rangers(shoutout to xsorus: PAIN INVERTER!!!!!!!) or trappers.
Sure, he can cnd off your pet and reg in stealth… Already looked at the regeneration uptime on rangers? He resets the fight, you reset the fight, all over again. With the difference that he dies when he does a slight mistake, while you got a way larger margin of error, if you use half your brain capacity(important: Never waste more than half your brain capacity on a single thief, you gotta keep wary of your surroundings. Nothing more painful than a sudden 2v1 with a thief in the mix)

difference is , he can run away, you cant

If he runs away its your win

Difference is he has to run away or die, you don’t.
And you can run away like np… Most weapon sets only need to burn a single cooldown, add in LR and you burn 2 cooldowns. The thief needs to burn through his initiative to catch up(Infiltrator’s strike/infiltrators arrow) or use shadowstep or something else. His steal has a long cooldown, if he has just attacked you and you need to disengage, it will typically be off cd, and the rest can only be in your advantage, if he uses all that to catch up to you.

Nice assessment, Shiren.

Well we’re probably not fighting the same thieves you and I. The ones I come up against roam in a group of 3-4 and do as they please. If they want to down 4-6 players in the middle of veteran npcs in front of a garrison they will do just that and laugh at our corpses. IMO stealth is a very powerful ability, and instead of having a tradeoff for that it can be traited to remove conditions, accelerate initiative regen, health regen, or move faster. That might be the thing people refer to as OP. I’m glad you can thrash them though good for you.

Yeah, the 100% thief groups are getting to be quite annoying. I can handle 1v2 thieves with my Ranger because the ones in these groups are often bad noobseeker spammers. But once they have 3, all they have to do is spam 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2 to catch and kill you. It does both and we dont’ have enough evasions to avoid all of those 2’s nor the movement to get away from it unless using both greatsword and sword.

Dude, an organized group can do anything. You think it would make a difference, if it was 5 mesmers? hf with all those shatters/phantasms…
5 Guardians? Well, at least, you won’t kill them unless you bring 30 guys.
5 D/D eles? I so wanna see that Like 5 balls of lightning rolling at you and then unloading their rotations
Fact remains, organized groups>PUGs. Even more in open world pvp than in any other game. In games such as DotA, premade teams are hellish strong, but you get to work against them, cause you are constantly in that group of 5 guys… Till the bitter end… And most importantly, through multiple encounters and countless battles. On the other hand, GW2: Just some randoms, you just happened to meet and already getting ganked by 5 guys and having exactly that one encounter with the organized group? Who cares whether it’s thieves or rangers, they play together all the time, know eachother, coordinate perfectly…
It’s a one-shot competition and the ones who got practice in that kind of thing usually win.
Any organized group can rip you a new one, be it 5 or 10 players, you are fielding against their 5.

If it was 5 Mesmers, I would escape. Why? They can’t just hit 2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2 to chase me when I lightning reflexes + swoop to escape.

Now 5 elementalists? Yeah, I’m screwed … but they had to at least use multiple skills. Pressing one button would allow me to escape :-)

My problem isn’t being killed by a group. My problem is the effectiveness to skill ratio. Thief’s is out-of-whack.

I will state my opinion again, stealth is broken by design . It offers too much utility and is all to accessible . And because it is too good and to available , thieves suffer for it in PvE .

Design problem

Sebrent.3625:

If it was 5 Mesmers, I would escape. Why? They can’t just hit 2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2 to chase me when I lightning reflexes + swoop to escape.

Now 5 elementalists? Yeah, I’m screwed … but they had to at least use multiple skills. Pressing one button would allow me to escape :-)

My problem isn’t being killed by a group. My problem is the effectiveness to skill ratio. Thief’s is out-of-whack.

222222222 is hilarious…
Best comment, I ever read about 222222:
“I just CnD’d him. Then I shot him in the back as he heartseekered far away.”
Seriously, mindless 2222 spamming won’t bring them anywhere, even, if they are 5, unless you are fully gc specced and got no defensive skills whatsoever… If it’s a decent 5v5 with a decent group setup, that is.
And about running away from 5 mesmers: They drop veil, come in invis, suddenly pop up, immobilize you and you got 15 clones grouphugging you and exploding, while 5 invulnerable mesmers swing at you.
You throw out yout stun break and block through it, they break out their phantasms, now you got 10 phantasms and 5 mesmers out for blood, while they chain-stun you with their offhand pistols.
Yes. You can run like hell
Compared to that, 5 22222222 thieves are easy to manage

Lol. I’m talking about roaming solo and running into those thief groups. 5v5, lol at thief group. I was very annoyed yesterday though. Ran across a 2-man thief group and kept downing one of them but then the other would refuge and rez him. Tried using entangle, laying down torch in their, blindly melee (even landed a few) but couldn’t get the kittens finished. So very annoying.

As far as the Mesmer group. Getting jumped by them does hurt and if they are built for “catching”/“tackling” you are in trouble with that many … of any class.

However, once you are out of range of a Mesmer, you’re golden unless you’re one slow fatty :-p

See, I already ruled out the 5v1 or xv1|x>1 scenario.
Honestly, you SHOULD have no chance against that many players.

I agree, naphack. However, I still think those players should have to press at least 2 different buttons. One to catch me and one to kill me. One button to rule them all is silly ;-)

Now back to the on-topic. We can continue this in PMs or a different thread.

As far as what they said, there isn’t really any information except that they are looking at modifying spirits and pets. This is good as these are two areas that a majority of the Ranger community seems to agree need work.

I would love to know what, so let’s hope Robert get’s permission from the balance team to give us some hints ;-)

I’ve bugged him a little on this :-p

yes, but a thief can run away against that many players . And choose when to attack you . You seem to be missing the point here buddy … they do too much damage for how in control of the battle they are . Lack of other builds is an entirely different mater

Let’s take this to another thread, Chok, before a mod comes in.

When will people realize, thieves are not in control of the battle at all unless they run a sword build?
They can control, when they are part of the battle and when they bail out, but the conditions of the battle are entirely up to the other player, as thieves got no control outside a few short and impractical stuns.
They got lots of skills to engage and lots of skills to disengage. That’s all. Just bait some attacks, lay down some cc and laugh. If you got one thief down, just lay down some attacks. Once the ally uses SR, drop a couple traps or whatever you got, let the wolf howl, you know the drill. Theres plenty of ways to deal with thieves. ANd rangers actually got the best possible anti thief skills(traps).

I am talking bout a shadow arts sword build..

Assuming trap mesmer or dog mesmer :-/

But we could be headed more and more towards the build wars of GW2. I’m curious if the spirits will give us another option so that the Ranger vs Thief issue isn’t mostly “be a trap ranger”.

I honestly do hope that, not just rangers, but all classes continue to be balanced. I get that there is big work on the background for what appears to be a new chapter in the GW2 storyline with the Flame & Frost… but we really need classes to be up to par. At least to the point where you can identify that you enjoy playing as a ‘whatever’ because of the play style, not because they’re so OP or because other classes suck at this or that. I think it’s that whole 5-man thing and how each player does their role that matters most, to get to the point where there are 8 classes to 5 spots in a group (in pve/pvp/wvw) and you can say ‘I don’t care if you are a ranger, you are -now- potentially as good as any of the other 8, but we need that crowd control/healing power/whatever you bring to the table’.

That may be an utopian type of future reality, noticing how little love rangers do get, but the problem of balance is really not related to just rangers or OP professions, it’s more related to ‘who does well in what scenario and how can we balance that’. Because I am honestly sick and tired of switching my builds around all the time and that says a lot about how poorly balanced rangers can be.

The thing with trap ranger is that he is effective even without condition build and (without putting points into BM) doesn’t have many other choices to pick skills beside signets.
I wish to see some little boosts and adding some boons to make them viable to obtain.

Anyone know when the patch is due?

The issue with trap ranger is he is much more effective with 30 points in skirmishing. I don’t want to always put 30 points in skirmishing.

The trap ranger also takes up 2+ utility slots :-/

Trap ranger is only good in wvw/spvp anyways, since conditions are terrible compared to power berserker builds in PvE.

And signets are only good if you take signet of the beastmaster grandmaster trait. They should bake that trait in and make signets work like that baseline if they want people to use them.

Zenith, I disagree with both your statements :-/

I’ve found traps to be good with power builds as well in PvE. Also, because of condition caps, most people are running power in PvE so being the token condition guy (or two) in a group is fine.

The signet of renewal and signet of the wild are fine without the trait Signet of the Beastmaster.

No, condition damage even without condition capping is still considerably inferior to power/prec/critdmg output.

Signet of The Wild has an immense cooldown compared to the boosting effects of other signets/utilities for classes, and only affects a third of your damage total without the trait. It may seem cool to burst in pvp, but it’s really bad for output in pve.

Zenith, which do you think will kill an enemy that loves to become invulnerable, invisible, teleport, etc every few seconds? Raw damage, or conditions?

Zenith, condition damage ignores the protection that many bosses (and trash mobs) are leveraging in dungeons, especially the fractals.

Condition damage has to be weaker than berserker because on berserker you have to sacrifice all three stats for offense (power, precision, crit damage) instead of just one (condition damage).
So it’s fine that conditions are weaker than berserker damage.
If you just take power or precision or crit damage for example with healing power / toughness you will see that conditions are stronger if you just invest into one single offensive stat.

I can mantain permanent 10 might on myself and my pet and fury uptime of 75% without the horn, could me 100% with it but i dislike axes . All the while buffing your allies with regeneration, fury, might , vigor and condi cleanse every 30 seconds .

Chokolata, would you mind posting that here or on the Ranger Boons thread?

Sebrent.3625:

Zenith, I disagree with both your statements :-/

I’ve found traps to be good with power builds as well in PvE. Also, because of condition caps, most people are running power in PvE so being the token condition guy (or two) in a group is fine.

The signet of renewal and signet of the wild are fine without the trait Signet of the Beastmaster.

How dare you bring logic here.

Sebrent.3625:

Zenith, condition damage ignores the protection that many bosses (and trash mobs) are leveraging in dungeons, especially the fractals.

Your problem if you’re not running mesmers with null field and boon removal on shatters. Few efficient groups don’t bring a mesmer, however.

Berserker gear damage in dungeons outperforms condition specs by more than the protection mitigates, and to be honest the only mobs with constant protection that you need stripping for are dredge. Either way a mesmer with mainhand sword autoattack chain will be stripping boons constantly.

Arpheus.6918:

Condition damage has to be weaker than berserker because on berserker you have to sacrifice all three stats for offense (power, precision, crit damage) instead of just one (condition damage).
So it’s fine that conditions are weaker than berserker damage.
If you just take power or precision or crit damage for example with healing power / toughness you will see that conditions are stronger if you just invest into one single offensive stat.

You don’t need toughness in any dungeon. Toughness is only a tool for less experienced players. We run full glass cannons in fractals 60+.

Reflection and vigor+dodges mitigates far more damage than foolishly trying to tank it/soak it.

The fact is that berserker gear needs to be nerfed to match spvp, by taking some of the critdmg away and switching it for vitality to reflect the spvp amulets, so the crit dmg cap everywhere is 60%. Berserker is too kitten good on competent people.

@ Zenith
I guess you get the idea of my post. I brought up toughness just as an example. And in WvW toughness is a nice thing to have

I often player my Mesmer in the higher level fractals (he is still my main … for now). There are plenty of bosses and mobs that continuously apply protection to themselves.

When it comes to the “need” for toughness/vitality in the highest level fractals, those who use condition damage have been known to use rampager’s gear (power/precision/condition) so they have some decent power, can benefit from on-crit (and it helps direct), and they still have good condition damage.

Those who don’t use condition damage at all use Berserker.

Both work. Thinking that berserker is the best and only way is very closed-minded.

Sebrent.3625:

I often player my Mesmer in the higher level fractals (he is still my main … for now). There are plenty of bosses and mobs that continuously apply protection to themselves.

When it comes to the “need” for toughness/vitality in the highest level fractals, those who use condition damage have been known to use rampager’s gear (power/precision/condition) so they have some decent power, can benefit from on-crit (and it helps direct), and they still have good condition damage.

Those who don’t use condition damage at all use Berserker.

Both work. Thinking that berserker is the best and only way is very closed-minded.

I have 6 lv80 toons, of which I have spent well over 70 gold gearing out in the vain hope of having build variety. Especially the mesmer and necro. Needless to say, I WANT condition builds to be good, given that it was my initial desired build before the game launched. But reality is an entirely different matter.

And dredge don’t constantly reapply protection. The ones with shields do groupwide application, and that’s why you drop a null field and burn them down first while guardian walls/feedback protect you from the resonants’s shockwaves.

The only condition class I’ve had any remote pleasure of playing is the engineer, and that’s because he’s got the most condition application and the strongest of them all — burning — to stack on the bleeds from his frag grenades.

Ranger has burning:

• Flame trap
• Torch

Done :-)

Engineer has:

• OH Pistol
• Flamethrower
• Grenade
• Bomb

… but you don’t often see someone take all 3 of those weapon kits.

The only condition the Engineer has access to that the Ranger doesn’t is Confusion … and the Ranger could apply that using its Reef Drake.

Also, listing the # of 80s someone has isn’t a very good credential given how simple it is to level a character to 80.

I don’t understand why fire and poison stack duration and only bleed stacks magnitude.

I mean for instance you have a sword/dagger/viper trap … its completely pointless. you have 3 poisons and you can keep it up indefinitely with the dagger alone.

Then on the other hand you can stack bleed up 25 stacks.

just doesn’t make sense to me.

Sebrent.3625:

Ranger has burning:

• Flame trap
• Torch

Done :-)

Engineer has:

• OH Pistol
• Flamethrower
• Grenade
• Bomb

… but you don’t often see someone take all 3 of those weapon kits.

---

The only condition the Engineer has access to that the Ranger doesn’t is Confusion … and the Ranger could apply that using its Reef Drake.

---

Also, listing the # of 80s someone has isn’t a very good credential given how simple it is to level a character to 80.

Engineers don’t take OH pistol? that’s news to me, considering the standard HGH engineer build uses dual pistols and grenade. And their burning comes from the trait that procs burning on crit, of which their multihit abilities do plenty of.

Listing number 80’s means you’ve some idea of how those classes play and what they have rather than looking at a wiki and speaking in the dark when you restrain yourself to playing one or two classes and theorize about others without experience on them.

I don’t care if you don’t trust my credentials. Those people who do 60+ fractals daily with me do. They trust me enough to bring a ranger when I don’t feel like being efficient and bringing a guardian or ele.

Fritz.5026:

I don’t understand why fire and poison stack duration and only bleed stacks magnitude.

I mean for instance you have a sword/dagger/viper trap … its completely pointless. you have 3 poisons and you can keep it up indefinitely with the dagger alone.

Then on the other hand you can stack bleed up 25 stacks.

just doesn’t make sense to me.

Because burning does the damage per tick of several bleedstacks with much easier to keep uptime? You need to ramp up bleeding stacks for it to not be complete garbage. Burning is good from the getgo. And poison is a utility condition — the problem is not enough mobs in pve heal consistently to make that poison’s utility good, just like chill has a decreased usage in pve and so does weakness (mobs don’t worry about endurance).

Zenith.7301:

Sebrent.3625:

Ranger has burning:

• Flame trap
• Torch

Done :-)

Engineer has:

• OH Pistol
• Flamethrower
• Grenade
• Bomb

… but you don’t often see someone take all 3 of those weapon kits.

---

The only condition the Engineer has access to that the Ranger doesn’t is Confusion … and the Ranger could apply that using its Reef Drake.

---

Also, listing the # of 80s someone has isn’t a very good credential given how simple it is to level a character to 80.

Engineers don’t take OH pistol? that’s news to me, considering the standard HGH engineer build uses dual pistols and grenade. And their burning comes from the trait that procs burning on crit, of which their multihit abilities do plenty of.

I didn’t ever say Engineers don’t take OH pistol. Read and comprehend.

You mentioned “condition damage is only good on Engineer because it applies burning”, so I showed the ways the two different classes apply burning and mentioned that you don’t often see someone take all three kits … flamethrower, bomb, and grenade … since those were 3 of the 4 sources with the 4th being OH pistol.

Zenith.7301:

Listing number 80’s means you’ve some idea of how those classes play and what they have rather than looking at a wiki and speaking in the dark when you restrain yourself to playing one or two classes and theorize about others without experience on them.

I don’t care if you don’t trust my credentials. Those people who do 60+ fractals daily with me do. They trust me enough to bring a ranger when I don’t feel like being efficient and bringing a guardian or ele.

Having something and knowing how to use it well are two different things.

Without video of you doing it, it’s not a credential. I could say I have an 80 of everything as well and do 60+ fractals with all of them … but it’d be a lie. Neither of us has presented proof though, so both claims currently have the same amount of credit.

Fritz.5026:

I don’t understand why fire and poison stack duration and only bleed stacks magnitude.

I mean for instance you have a sword/dagger/viper trap … its completely pointless. you have 3 poisons and you can keep it up indefinitely with the dagger alone.

Poison trap does that in an AOE while sword and dagger do not.