Guild Wars 2

Zenith.7301:

I just think a perception can be plentiful and echoed by enough people that it becomes consensus.

And a consensus makes it true?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Just because many people believe it, doesn’t mean it’s true. Senator McCarthy’s anti-communist actions were supported by a majority of Americans, and yet it it destroyed many, many innocent lives. Most of America believed in the guilt of the Duke Lacrosse players, and yet they were ultimately proven innocent.

Look, a tank Guardian may very well do more damage than a BM Ranger. I don’t know if that is true or false. Do a test, and and you will convince me. But saying “It’s true because people believe it” is a logical fallacy, and I repeat, not conducive to good discussion and dilutes your argument. And that is my whole point.

jkctmc.8754:

Your heal is Withdraw, which adds to your lovely amount of evades you already have. This heal also cures Immobilize, Chill, and Cripple Now throw in 6x Superior Rune of the Adventurer, and this 15s heal gives you a TON OF ENDURANCE to keep dodging.

All of that, and I still get stealth with CnD.

What was it you were saying again? <scratches head>

Love Withdrawal, would kill for that on Ranger with Runes of Adventurer. No idea why I don’t see it used more.

capuchinseven.8395:

jkctmc.8754:

Your heal is Withdraw, which adds to your lovely amount of evades you already have. This heal also cures Immobilize, Chill, and Cripple Now throw in 6x Superior Rune of the Adventurer, and this 15s heal gives you a TON OF ENDURANCE to keep dodging.

All of that, and I still get stealth with CnD.

What was it you were saying again? <scratches head>

Love Withdrawal, would kill for that on Ranger with Runes of Adventurer. No idea why I don’t see it used more.

the funny thing is, thieves get 2 evades from rune of the adventurer.

naphack.9346:

the funny thing is, thieves get 2 evades from rune of the adventurer.

yes, thieves have, hands down, the best “more dodges” trait in the game … because it “stacks” with vigor.

With Vigor but without thief trait (all non-thief) … 4 dodge rolls instead of 2.
Thief with vigor & trait … 6 dodge rolls

Ursan.7846:

Zenith.7301:

I just think a perception can be plentiful and echoed by enough people that it becomes consensus.

And a consensus makes it true?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Just because many people believe it, doesn’t mean it’s true. Senator McCarthy’s anti-communist actions were supported by a majority of Americans, and yet it it destroyed many, many innocent lives. Most of America believed in the guilt of the Duke Lacrosse players, and yet they were ultimately proven innocent.

Look, a tank Guardian may very well do more damage than a BM Ranger. I don’t know if that is true or false. Do a test, and and you will convince me. But saying “It’s true because people believe it” is a logical fallacy, and I repeat, not conducive to good discussion and dilutes your argument. And that is my whole point.

I’m aware an argument popularity does not make it necessarily true. But you underplay the value of consensus in getting close to truth. It helps point out trends, and when enough people share a similar experience with a build, it’s harder to prove they’re just exaggerating about the inefficiency of the build.

As far as I am concerned , fix the bugs and pet reliability and then we can talk balance . Anything before that is silly . I do however think that balancing obviously useless or bad things can be done without fear of making the ranger OP

I’m not getting my hopes up as we all have seen what they consider “buffs” in the previous patches. Hopefully they are able to restore my faith in them this coming patch ^^

The buff to greatsword also did little to place it as a useful weapon. It’s still inferior to mainhand sword+dagger or torch in sustained damage, and it’s still pretty easy to kite.

Hilt Bash in particular has an awful rooting animation effect that makes it very impractical to land on moving targets.

Aveneo.2068:

Arekai.5698:

They will fix underwater combat.

By ‘fix’ do you mean take away what they gave us so we will suck under water as much as we do on land again; or give us a pair of flippers and an Aquaman tshirt?

They will take a single pet nobody uses and buff it slightly.
Or update the icon.

Zenith.7301:

The buff to greatsword also did little to place it as a useful weapon. It’s still inferior to mainhand sword+dagger or torch in sustained damage, and it’s still pretty easy to kite.

Hilt Bash in particular has an awful rooting animation effect that makes it very impractical to land on moving targets.

The only time I miss with hilt bash is when I’m blinded or immobilized

naphack.9346:

Zenith.7301:

The buff to greatsword also did little to place it as a useful weapon. It’s still inferior to mainhand sword+dagger or torch in sustained damage, and it’s still pretty easy to kite.

Hilt Bash in particular has an awful rooting animation effect that makes it very impractical to land on moving targets.

The only time I miss with hilt bash is when I’m blinded or immobilized

Try chilled or crippled while that escaping ele has swiftness.

i hope they buff dual axes or longbow… i wanna use both but it just sucks so much…

Ursan.7846:

Zenith.7301:

I just think a perception can be plentiful and echoed by enough people that it becomes consensus.

And a consensus makes it true?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Just because many people believe it, doesn’t mean it’s true. Senator McCarthy’s anti-communist actions were supported by a majority of Americans, and yet it it destroyed many, many innocent lives. Most of America believed in the guilt of the Duke Lacrosse players, and yet they were ultimately proven innocent.

Look, a tank Guardian may very well do more damage than a BM Ranger. I don’t know if that is true or false. Do a test, and and you will convince me. But saying “It’s true because people believe it” is a logical fallacy, and I repeat, not conducive to good discussion and dilutes your argument. And that is my whole point.

Perception equals reality. It’s only history that proves perception to be false.

But, Jon Peters essentially says the same thing as Zenith in that interview (quoted below).

“Jon: One thing, though, that we have been trying out recently – this just triggered, I wasn’t going to say it for sure, but you know, streaming – if you look at games that have a lot of really good streaming with their playerbase, that perception can be changed even without changing the balance sometimes.”<—-Why put effort into balance when you can make them think it already is?

I was actually saddened to see all the player optimism still extant in this thread. After perusing the many hopeful comments, I’m left with this nagging thought that P.T. Barnum was an amazingly insightful man.

And that’s all I got to say about that.

Pedra.4381:

Perception equals reality. It’s only history that proves perception to be false.

Your own perception is your own reality. Your perceived reality may not necessarily be the truth. Science proves the perception to be true or false. Your second statement is very true: people’s perception of reality and the truth can often be far apart.

Most people in the world believed the world was flat. It was certainly far from the truth though, as mounting evidence over the centuries showed.

And that, again, is my whole point. If we’re truly interested in good discussion and forming convincing arguments, do some tests, show us some numbers. It’ll make your arguments much more convincing as compared to the usual “Lolz Rangers do dmg.” “Lolz no they don’t” posts that do not contribute to good discussion.

I’m just going to emphasize one more time, I’m not agreeing/disagreeing with anyone here. I’m just tired of the constant back and forth both ways which never contain any real substantial evidence that we can sink our teeth into.

Ursan.7846:

Most people in the world believed the world was flat. It was certainly far from the truth though, as mounting evidence over the centuries showed.

Precisely the example I was thinking of when I posted. There is universal truth and perceived truth. Sometimes they are vastly different. But, I submit to you that any perception that has broad general support and results in irreversible consequence is “fact” du jour. If, back in the day, someone were branded a heretic and put to death for espousing their beliefs that were contrary to the “known” facts that the Earth was flat, then it doesn’t get any more real for them.

So, if Jon Peters can set up his carefully selected streams and convince people that the Ranger is top tier, the fact that it isn’t won’t matter (not to the general player base). Will it matter to the heretics? Sure.

We’re discussing epistemology now? Guys, it’s really simple: play a lvl 80 Ranger, then play a tier 1 profession and see the light.

Is this the same Jon “poof here I am” Peters that made the exact same promises before – which were to be implemented half a year ago? You know, the guy that only reappeared once is in own thread, that had over 10k posts and 200k views?
Sorry. I no longer believe that guy.

Buttercup.5871:

Sorry. I no longer believe that guy.

You better believe that he thinks he can trick you into believing the Ranger is good to go in it’s current state.

Venereus.9473:

We’re discussing epistemology now? Guys, it’s really simple: play a lvl 80 Ranger, then play a tier 1 profession and see the light.

I’ve done that, it’s called Trapper Ranger, it was boring and easy and I felt dirty so I respeced….

The single biggest thing that needs to be fixed for the Ranger is the Longbow #1 skill. It fires way too slowly for its offensive stats, which is probably a bug given its stated activation speed being a full .5 seconds shorter than its actual rate of fire.

Wow, thanks for all of the attention! I posted this only a few days ago and it already has over 10,000 views. There is clearly a lot of community interest in a ranger PvE buff.

Venereus.9473:

We’re discussing epistemology now? Guys, it’s really simple: play a lvl 80 Ranger, then play a tier 1 profession and see the light.

shrug, play a Thief and a Warrior, still come back to Ranger and still as a Ranger kill all other classes.

capuchinseven.8395:

Venereus.9473:

We’re discussing epistemology now? Guys, it’s really simple: play a lvl 80 Ranger, then play a tier 1 profession and see the light.

shrug, play a Thief and a Warrior, still come back to Ranger and still as a Ranger kill all other classes.

No one ever said the Ranger was so bad you can’t get kills but I can guarantee a person of equal skill across all three professions will kill faster and more efficiently with both the thief and warrior over the ranger.

And when it comes to WvW, the mesmer, elementalist and guardian are so much better that it’s just not even a contest.

Guardian…better? Sorry, I laughed at that. Unless you’re a bunker Guardian and set up for it, you WILL die fast in WvW as a Guardian.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Guardian…better? Sorry, I laughed at that. Unless you’re a bunker Guardian and set up for it, you WILL die fast in WvW as a Guardian.

everyone die fast in wvw if you dont have vit, toughness or whatever lol. Guardians bring so much to wvw, boons, heals and many other things, lets not even start with mesmers. Rangers? lol

NemesiS, can you knock somebody off a flame ram from on top of a tower/keep, and utterly destroy them from above with a Guardian and multiple AoE skills? Can you set down multiple abilities at chokepoints which will activate the second somebody touches them and hit multiple people at once, whittling down their ability to survive while the rest of the party destroys them? Can you throw down a healing field that lasts for 15 seconds and continually gets rid of conditions and grants regen to allies? Can you rez everybody downed nearby back up with a single skill? Can you wipe out most enemies 1v1 without problems?

Ranger can do all that, Guardian can’t. Face it, while Guardian is amazing in a group thanks to multiple buffs, by themselves they’re worthless in doing anything else in WvW.

RyuDragnier.9476:

NemesiS, can you knock somebody off a flame ram from on top of a tower/keep, and utterly destroy them from above with a Guardian and multiple AoE skills? Can you set down multiple abilities at chokepoints which will activate the second somebody touches them and hit multiple people at once, whittling down their ability to survive while the rest of the party destroys them? Can you throw down a healing field that lasts for 15 seconds and continually gets rid of conditions and grants regen to allies? Can you rez everybody downed nearby back up with a single skill? Can you wipe out most enemies 1v1 without problems?

Ranger can do all that, Guardian can’t. Face it, while Guardian is amazing in a group thanks to multiple buffs, by themselves they’re worthless in doing anything else in WvW.

can you please tell me how to knock down people in flames rams? what AoE skills you are talking about? because i don’t have any, lol Longbow i mean seriously who uses that?

A Guardian whining about Rangers and i tough i have seen it all. You definitely don’t play much Ranger do you?

Longbow #4 can throw people on rams off it. Throw multiple traps where they were standing, wait for them to hit it, use Longbow #5. For extra damage use Entangle from behind the gate to throw vines on them.

And LB is amazing for tower/keep defense from on the walls. If you’re not using it, you’re not a smart defender. By the way, Ranger is my MAIN.

NemesiS.6749:

RyuDragnier.9476:

NemesiS, can you knock somebody off a flame ram from on top of a tower/keep, and utterly destroy them from above with a Guardian and multiple AoE skills? Can you set down multiple abilities at chokepoints which will activate the second somebody touches them and hit multiple people at once, whittling down their ability to survive while the rest of the party destroys them? Can you throw down a healing field that lasts for 15 seconds and continually gets rid of conditions and grants regen to allies? Can you rez everybody downed nearby back up with a single skill? Can you wipe out most enemies 1v1 without problems?

Ranger can do all that, Guardian can’t. Face it, while Guardian is amazing in a group thanks to multiple buffs, by themselves they’re worthless in doing anything else in WvW.

can you please tell me how to knock down people in flames rams? what AoE skills you are talking about? because i don’t have any, lol Longbow i mean seriously who uses that?

A Guardian whining about Rangers and i tough i have seen it all. You definitely don’t play much Ranger do you?

PB shot is an AoE with piercing arrows, could also throw a wolf down there with “Guard!”, traps are clearly what he’s talking about for the choke point (i’ve used this method with a group of rangers to shred enemy zergs as they run through them), rangers aren’t that bad in WvW, especially when you are taking traps, BM builds granted aren’t great in zerg fights because of the reliance on the pet, but they sure as hell work in small skirmishes and etc.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Longbow #4 can throw people on rams off it. Throw multiple traps where they were standing, wait for them to hit it, use Longbow #5. For extra damage use Entangle from behind the gate to throw vines on them.

And LB is amazing for tower/keep defense from on the walls. If you’re not using it, you’re not a smart defender. By the way, Ranger is my MAIN.

Longbows flaws are essentially gone when in the Tower/Keep defense because the only thing it really is lacking is defense/ keeping them at range, but neither of those things are an issue in keep fights.

Exactly Durzlla. Between taking a SB and a LB in a tower/keep defense fight, I’ll take the LB every time because you have the range to make the hits hurt, and you’ve got the defensive utility of the entire bow at your disposal.

See an enemy on a Flame Ram? Knock them off with #4. See several people attacking the gates? Throw a #5 their way to make them back off (this work well even if you’re behind the gate aiming the AoE straight at it). Add a #3 to throw 10 stacks of vulnerability on an enemy while your arrow carts and allies are hitting them, and a #2 to help focus fire them, and you have the perfect defensive tool. There’s a reason why you see so many rangers use a LB when they’re not on arrow carts for defense.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Guardian…better? Sorry, I laughed at that. Unless you’re a bunker Guardian and set up for it, you WILL die fast in WvW as a Guardian.

If you are setting a guardian up to be offensive then you are doing it wrong. The guardian elite heal is amazing and Hallowed Ground is so good in WvW it’s ridiculous. Never mind line of warding for controlling mob movement.

Guardian is the best party class in the game and that is what WvW is about, not wandering around, getting in duels with people over nothing.

The problem Substance is that it means they cannot do ANYTHING without a party…which limits their usefulness significantly if there’s no small group or zerg going around.

Substance E.4852:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Guardian…better? Sorry, I laughed at that. Unless you’re a bunker Guardian and set up for it, you WILL die fast in WvW as a Guardian.

If you are setting a guardian up to be offensive then you are doing it wrong. The guardian elite heal is amazing and Hallowed Ground is so good in WvW it’s ridiculous. Never mind line of warding for controlling mob movement.

Guardian is the best party class in the game and that is what WvW is about, not wandering around, getting in duels with people over nothing.

Guardians can teleport in (no gap closing required) burst someone down (healing themselves as they do it) and teleport out to safety like a GW1 sin, my friend does it all the time, it’s ridiculous, he just runs around in rampagers with his GS and Sword/torch.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Exactly Durzlla. Between taking a SB and a LB in a tower/keep defense fight, I’ll take the LB every time because you have the range to make the hits hurt, and you’ve got the defensive utility of the entire bow at your disposal.

See an enemy on a Flame Ram? Knock them off with #4. See several people attacking the gates? Throw a #5 their way to make them back off (this work well even if you’re behind the gate aiming the AoE straight at it). Add a #3 to throw 10 stacks of vulnerability on an enemy while your arrow carts and allies are hitting them, and a #2 to help focus fire them, and you have the perfect defensive tool. There’s a reason why you see so many rangers use a LB when they’re not on arrow carts for defense.

1. to hit with #4 down from the wall, you have to stand directly above him, a bad place .
2. #5 will kill the ranger himself (retaliation).
3. 10 stack on ONE enemy? lol, there are 30-80 enemies.
4. pirce don’t work very well from walls, the arrow will hit the ground 0.1 feet behind the target. (if it hits anyway)
5. #2 will be dodged, reflected most of the time, but if you hit him, it’s good.
6. rangers only range ae is on the LB, this is the only reason they chose this weapon.
7. you can’t send your pet down with guard anymore.
8. the roots from entangle will be killed after 0.1 seconds (remember: 30-80 enemys hitting the door)

And now the perfect siege def skills:
- reflection, absorb
- retaliation
- confusion
- every ranged ground ae with big hits (meteor rain etc.)
- bubbles
- fear
- heals(reg) with range effect

Guardian is the best party class in the game and that is what WvW is about, not wandering around, getting in duels with people over nothing.

Then Anet shouldn’t have made all the WvW POIs, etc. required for world completion. You HAVE to wander around various maps by yourself, unless you can convince a zerg to escort you everywhere you need to go.

Longtomsilver.8031:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Exactly Durzlla. Between taking a SB and a LB in a tower/keep defense fight, I’ll take the LB every time because you have the range to make the hits hurt, and you’ve got the defensive utility of the entire bow at your disposal.

See an enemy on a Flame Ram? Knock them off with #4. See several people attacking the gates? Throw a #5 their way to make them back off (this work well even if you’re behind the gate aiming the AoE straight at it). Add a #3 to throw 10 stacks of vulnerability on an enemy while your arrow carts and allies are hitting them, and a #2 to help focus fire them, and you have the perfect defensive tool. There’s a reason why you see so many rangers use a LB when they’re not on arrow carts for defense.

1. to hit with #4 down from the wall, you have to stand directly above him, a bad place .
2. #5 will kill the ranger himself (retaliation).
3. 10 stack on ONE enemy? lol, there are 30-80 enemies.
4. pirce don’t work very well from walls, the arrow will hit the ground 0.1 feet behind the target. (if it hits anyway)
5. #2 will be dodged, reflected most of the time, but if you hit him, it’s good.
6. rangers only range ae is on the LB, this is the only reason they chose this weapon.
7. you can’t send your pet down with guard anymore.
8. the roots from entangle will be killed after 0.1 seconds (remember: 30-80 enemys hitting the door)

1. That’s for keeps. For towers, you can stand to the side and hit them.
2. Depends on the tier you’re in, and where you’re at. T5 doesn’t have much problems with Retaliation usually.
3. Depends on the tier you’re in, and where you’re at. I stick with the home borderlands so the guys at Eternal don’t have to worry about it.
4. You don’t need to have pierce on to use the LB for defense (I don’t)
5. Which is why it’s one of those “I’ll use it for the hell of it” abilities.
6. Which is why we use it for defense.
7. You don’t need to. Traps help deal with it if you’re traited in them. If not, use siege.
8. Like I said for 2 and 3, DEPENDS ON THE TIER YOU’RE IN AND LOCATION.

RyuDragnier.9476:

Longtomsilver.8031:

RyuDragnier.9476:

Exactly Durzlla. Between taking a SB and a LB in a tower/keep defense fight, I’ll take the LB every time because you have the range to make the hits hurt, and you’ve got the defensive utility of the entire bow at your disposal.

See an enemy on a Flame Ram? Knock them off with #4. See several people attacking the gates? Throw a #5 their way to make them back off (this work well even if you’re behind the gate aiming the AoE straight at it). Add a #3 to throw 10 stacks of vulnerability on an enemy while your arrow carts and allies are hitting them, and a #2 to help focus fire them, and you have the perfect defensive tool. There’s a reason why you see so many rangers use a LB when they’re not on arrow carts for defense.

1. to hit with #4 down from the wall, you have to stand directly above him, a bad place .
2. #5 will kill the ranger himself (retaliation).
3. 10 stack on ONE enemy? lol, there are 30-80 enemies.
4. pirce don’t work very well from walls, the arrow will hit the ground 0.1 feet behind the target. (if it hits anyway)
5. #2 will be dodged, reflected most of the time, but if you hit him, it’s good.
6. rangers only range ae is on the LB, this is the only reason they chose this weapon.
7. you can’t send your pet down with guard anymore.
8. the roots from entangle will be killed after 0.1 seconds (remember: 30-80 enemys hitting the door)

1. That’s for keeps. For towers, you can stand to the side and hit them.
2. Depends on the tier you’re in, and where you’re at. T5 doesn’t have much problems with Retaliation usually.
3. Depends on the tier you’re in, and where you’re at. I stick with the home borderlands so the guys at Eternal don’t have to worry about it.
4. You don’t need to have pierce on to use the LB for defense (I don’t)
5. Which is why it’s one of those “I’ll use it for the hell of it” abilities.
6. Which is why we use it for defense.
7. You don’t need to. Traps help deal with it if you’re traited in them. If not, use siege.
8. Like I said for 2 and 3, DEPENDS ON THE TIER YOU’RE IN AND LOCATION.

Just slipping in here to say that I’m T2 and don’t have issues with Retal, roots dying super early, etc etc. So before you use the stupid “Herpadur try a high Tier! Hurdur!” Argument realize its not going to help, it’s more of a “where are you, and is the Zerg you’re fighting mindless or a premade?” Sort of thing.

Yes the longbow is underpowered compared to other weapons, but it can be used in certain situations . It does not make it good , it makes it usable .

I like the feel of a dual bow beastmaster so I continue to play it . Balance be kitten /p>

RyuDragnier.9476:

1. That’s for keeps. For towers, you can stand to the side and hit them.
2. Depends on the tier you’re in, and where you’re at. T5 doesn’t have much problems with Retaliation usually.
3. Depends on the tier you’re in, and where you’re at. I stick with the home borderlands so the guys at Eternal don’t have to worry about it.
4. You don’t need to have pierce on to use the LB for defense (I don’t)
5. Which is why it’s one of those “I’ll use it for the hell of it” abilities.
6. Which is why we use it for defense.
7. You don’t need to. Traps help deal with it if you’re traited in them. If not, use siege.
8. Like I said for 2 and 3, DEPENDS ON THE TIER YOU’RE IN AND LOCATION.

Your arguments seems a little bit helpless.
Traps to defend keep are useless, low range (even if you trait it), low damage, long cd, not any stopping power.

Compare the tools rangers have with the tools of any other profession you want, rangers will allways have the short end in this comparison. (siege)

That’s the reason i prefer a new weapon (staff) with all the little tools the ranger lack.

PS:
No problem with retaliation using Barrage?
One Guardian with retaliation means 12 × 300 = 3600 damage to the barrage using ranger. If the guardian used the shout on his teammates, you can multiply this with 5.

PPS:
I’m playing 7 different lvl 80 professions in WvWvW, maybe this is some backup.

Substance E.4852:

capuchinseven.8395:

Venereus.9473:

We’re discussing epistemology now? Guys, it’s really simple: play a lvl 80 Ranger, then play a tier 1 profession and see the light.

shrug, play a Thief and a Warrior, still come back to Ranger and still as a Ranger kill all other classes.

No one ever said the Ranger was so bad you can’t get kills but I can guarantee a person of equal skill across all three professions will kill faster and more efficiently with both the thief and warrior over the ranger.

And when it comes to WvW, the mesmer, elementalist and guardian are so much better that it’s just not even a contest.

….

I just said I play a thief and a warrior, therefore I’ve already played those three classes with an equal skill level.

I’m at the point where I just have to roll my eyes at stuff like this now, I destroy warriors so hard it’s not even funny anymore, I feel bad for them.

I’ve been having good success with my Ranger running with [GF] here and there on Ehmry Bay. I work with one or two other rangers to combine our skills, pets, etc. and it works quite well. I am going to have to run my Mesmer with them sometime though to see how that “feels”.

I laugh in sPvP when I run Shaman amulet and 0/0/30/10/30. It takes 4 people to get through my evasions and hp regen. It’s too bad conditions aren’t nearly as good at zerg busting for a ranger as direct damage … though I’d love for someone to prove me wrong here.

Longtomsilver.8031:

Your arguments seems a little bit helpless.
Traps to defend keep are useless, low range (even if you trait it), low damage, long cd, not any stopping power.

Compare the tools rangers have with the tools of any other profession you want, rangers will allways have the short end in this comparison. (siege)

That’s the reason i prefer a new weapon (staff) with all the little tools the ranger lack.

PS:
No problem with retaliation using Barrage?
One Guardian with retaliation means 12 × 300 = 3600 damage to the barrage using ranger. If the guardian used the shout on his teammates, you can multiply this with 5.

PPS:
I’m playing 7 different lvl 80 professions in WvWvW, maybe this is some backup.

Combine Flame Trap, Viper’s Nest, and Frost Trap, and you can make somebody on a ram helpless and force them to disengage. If you’re defending a keep, you are not going to be able to wipe enemies by yourself…you use the skills to keep them from the Ram as long as possible so backup can arrive. And no, never been killed by retaliation, and I rarely see it.

Traps aren’t eviscerate. However, they are very good AOEs, even more so with traits, and on very low cooldowns.

Do I wish their range was 900? Yes. That’d make it the same range as Muddy Terrain, too.

Do I make use of them for both siege offense and defense? Heck yes.

Tip on offense:

• Run beneath the wall
• Throw a Flame Trap
• Quickly follow with a Spike Trap
• Barrage and/or a Poison Trap

I’ve done this plenty and it often gets enemies on the wall killed due to the immobilize + cripple from spike (bleeding too) and then the damage from all of it often downs them.

Traps are also quite useful when you have a meatgrinder setup in a tower/keep as enemies can’t see traps like they do necromancer marks. A frost trap and a spike trap are quick ways to slow down an enemy force that is trying to break through the meatgrinder. Muddy Terrain is beautiful for this too.

I am on AR and fight Ebay and BP every day. It’s amazing to me to see claims here from Rangers on those servers saying that they are effective in Keep and Tower defense. Unless you guys are always playing when I’m not on, it’s just not true. I’ve yet to see an enemy Ranger in either tower or keep defense that has caused any of us concern ever. If you go on a wall, you have two choices, you either stand there and die quickly, or you dodge around and die more slowly but in either case, we’re not worried about the Ranger. I have a high healing build and use a longbow when I have to defend. But, without my pet to assist, and with 20-30 folks focus firing on anyone stupid enough to hop on the wall, I’m not effective up there (which is why when our guild is forced into defense, we spend our time getting ready to wipe you after you get in).

And as an Asura Ranger I have quite a few “inside the door” defense options. Entangle, Radiation field, LB 5, etc. But, guess what? When they get off the ram and set up Cats I have nothing to counter that (not inherently as a Ranger, not anymore). And getting them on the Cats, accomplished what exactly?

I guess the question I have for all the keep and tower defense “effective” Rangers on BP and Ebay is this: define “effective”.

Pedra-WAR

When it comes to keep defense, who can jump up on the wall without getting pulled off? The only people that die from enemies on the wall of a keep are noobs. I don’t gear my playstyle to kill those types of people as they are going to die either way. I know plenty of the Mesmers, Thieves, and Necros I play with are just waiting for someone to try something on the walls so we can pull them

Even if you aren’t being pulled off, a good attacking force is watching those walls and focusing anyone that peeps their head over. Plenty of Necro marks and Ranger traps help too. Nothing like moving to the edge of your wall to shoot at my allies just to find that you are now immobilized, bleeding, on fire, and in LoS of those of us on the ground.

I’m quite interested that you’re from [WAR]. You should’ve noticed Saturday night when Dues Ex Tree, Griddles, and I were running around with 12 others from [GF] killing you guys all night in Eternal (along with what seemed like an army of PUGs or some other guilds that follow you).

Did you not notice the plethora of traps, entangle, and barrage hitting you when we engaged? I was the big yellowish/orange Norn with the [ROTH] tag. You may have noticed us healing to full rather quickly with 150% up-time on healing spring as well.

You guys were a fun zerg to bust because you just kept on coming. I can understand your annoyance with defending siege as well since it outranges everything but other siege and that we refuse to just PvDoor so you can shoot us in the head.

You guys did a great job of hugging towers though.

Pedra, you know that Ranger that was shooting that AR guardian back off of the flame ram at southeast tower of Ebay’s Borderlands yesterday? That was me.

AlexRD.7914:

I don’t understand though, why aren’t there any temporary buffs to help keep a class in edge.

Like, if you know pets are squishy, give them a temporary toughness boost until you find a better solution. That was just an example, but stuff like that could be done.

As a general but rather strict rule of thumb, you don’t do bandaid-balancing unless absolutely positively unavoidable. And to be fair, even with as much issues as Rangers have, the class isn’t entirely broken, so there’s no need to bandaid.

Now, before anyone goes ballistic: Please realize that to a developer, our definition of “so underpowered it’s pointless to log in” is still worlds from “actually broken”. The class works, and given the right situation will kill any other class reliably (i.e.: getting the jump on an enemy who has his CDs down from a previous engagement).
For all major development purposes, this counts as “ok-ish”. In terms of bug trackers, you’re looking at Normal issues probably, or even Low-Priority. Which means a whole lot of High, Critical and Blocker issues are ahead of it in the queue, and there are balancing issues with a High priority most likely, so those come first. Usually the ones leading to market-breaking situations where a specific class can power-farm to a point where it endangers the permanent market economy.

Mind you, 0 experience in game development, plenty experience in development, customer handling during development and bugfixing and prioritization of development work.

But the point is: You don’t bandaid. Unless you’re looking at a Blocker-level ticket where your entire system is standing still due to a balance issue, you avoid bandaids like the plague, because they just backload extra work. Plus it skews the metrics you can gather from the game, so judging the balance of the other classes and the bandaided class (after applying the bandaid) becomes virtually impossible.

Yes, it’d make us more happy as a customer. And then we end up in a WoW-like situation where the balance is good, but incredibly fragile. The tiniest change causes huge cascading imbalance-issues which then echo every time you try to fix the new imbalances.
This is because they use bandaids. You end up with an onion of balance hundreds of layers deep. And peeling them all away to actually balance the classes would just cause the exact same imbalance you started with, and since players had it more balanced in-between, hell are they going to be angry.

Sebrent.3625:

I’m quite interested that you’re from [WAR]. You should’ve noticed Saturday night when Dues Ex Tree, Griddles, and I were running around with 12 others from [GF] killing you guys all night in Eternal (along with what seemed like an army of PUGs or some other guilds that follow you).

So cute. We aren’t that WAR (there are two on AR). We really dislike Keep/Tower defense.

I’m sorry to disappoint, but we spent most of our Saturday night play time GvGing Rekz. Several of your fellow GF were on the hill watching us.

P.S.: All the stuff you posted concerning Keep/Tower is offensive tactics. And here, I thought your Ranger was effective in Defense. Guess that was just more of your “agenda”.

Pedra, the two of your guilds may need to change acronyms to avoid this confusion in the future.