Guild Wars 2

The purpose of this thread is to give feedback to Arenanet so that those nerfs won’t be at the wrong places and make the class unplayable (something that happened in the past).

If you think druid is totally fine and should not see any kind of nerf whatsoever then I suggest you stop reading here. This is an honest discussion and not some kind of “ranger protection force” that tries to keep their class at the top of the meta. I consider this hypocricy that I unfortunately observe in almost every class forum.

Another important fact on why nerfs are not a bad idea is the complete dominance of druid over core ranger. The way Arenanet “balances” I find it unlikely for them to buff core ranger before nerfing druid. Let’s face it guys: “If you have to eat kitten, best not to nibble. Bite, chew, swallow, repeat. It goes quicker.”

What is the main issue with druid?

Celestial Avatar Uptime

Clearly Arenanet didn’t intend to be able to enter this form so often. Druidic Clarity has become a completely broken way to cleanse condis and stunbreak every 10 seconds and you get a ton of good healing/condi cleanse/cc out of the form itself. But not this trait is broken, it would be completely fine if the cooldown was more in the range of 20-30 seconds. What happened was very short BWE testing time (last elite spec release). People complained that druid was too bad in PvE and like so often they tried to balance it for PvE and PvP at the same time and guess what, they failed hard. They actually attempted to:

• make AF degenerate out of combat -> community outcry and they reverted it
• butchered the way AF is generated -> it should have never been based on heal/dmg ticks but the exact amount of healing/dmg done instead, many people (like myself) suggested htis over and over
• allowing players to keep a part of AF when leaving CF which made the “toggle” for the stunbreak/cleanse very efficient

The main reason of those back and forth changes was like I said Arenanet trying to please PvE and PvP at the same time. Personally I think AF should not degenerate out of combat. However leaving the mode prematurely should still consume all remaing AF. Furthermore I would still rework the way AF is generated (based around actual healing/dmg amount instead of per tick).

Beastmastery
This traitline is actually not that much of a problem as people make it sound. First of all it is a core ranger line. HOT pets (except wyvern) are infinitely better than old pets but not because they are too good but because old pets are terrible. Also without traiting pets stats via BM the pet dmg really drops off. Rather than nerfing smoke/bristle they should slightly reduce the attribute bonus of the BM line (making it less mandatory) and buff old pets. Bristleback f2 would actually be fine if bugs were fixed. If I recall it still shoots more projectiles than the tooltip suggests.

Druid did eat nerfs as far as i know. And that 10s CD for avatar form is in reality a 20s or so CD. The only way you might be able to use it on a 10s CD is to pop in and out right away WHILE healing a couple of allies during the astral force down time.

The only thing that needs to be fixed is the bristleback F2

First, druid is not “top of the meta”. With that said:

• Druid clarity could be changed to break stun when entering CA, then pulse condition cleanse, 1 condition/second while i then form. I would love for this trait to also cleanse conditions from our pets somehow.

• I don’t think the change you want to make in regards to AF is the way to go. It would yet again promote zerkers more than anything, if we talk about gain from dealing damage.

• Do you really take BM traitline for the pet stat increase? I hardly notice the difference. I grab it for the traits.

I don’t agree that CD should be anywhere near 20 seconds.

I personally think it should be accessible more often and on demand (Yes, I’d welcome a complete redesign; It’s not worth using glyphs in this form whatsoever). Even before having 100% astral bar filled. Reasoning? You stop your damage for sustain. It’s a trade off that doesn’t need any nerfs.
If you compare it to Elementalists and their Water “form” our CAF is inferior. We need to do useless staff to be able to enter it, we can’t do anything but defend in it and most importantly – 3/5 abilities are unreliable and horribly designed, naturally missing a lot of time.

If you think about it – if the druid just casts CAF for cleanse and stunbreak only – he can’t fill the bar fast enough in 10 seconds (more like those 20) because he isn’t playing any healing power (which means it’s wrong to assume he’s playing healing traits or weapons). If he uses healing power – he wants to spend some time in CAF which makes the CD exactly those 20-25 seconds.

Why do you guys think healing power would fill AF faster and this would promote going berserker? It is the opposite. Currently healing power does nothign to fill AF faster because the whole thing is tick based. The current (!) system promotes berserker.

And seriously how do you think a more or less 10 second cd (and yes people do just toggle for druidic clarity) is okay for a stunbreak and full condi cleanse. Even 20 seconds would be questionable here.

Dojo.1867:

Why do you guys think healing power would fill AF faster and this would promote going berserker? It is the opposite. Currently healing power does nothign to fill AF faster because the whole thing is tick based. The current (!) system promotes berserker.

And seriously how do you think a more or less 10 second cd (and yes people do just toggle for druidic clarity) is okay for a stunbreak and full condi cleanse. Even 20 seconds would be questionable here.

If I’m running on a healing power build I want to use Regen and staff.
On berserker builds, I usually swap staff out. The only build worth using staff in Power Setup is the one using S&R to get your ally into ranged. You loose a lot of strength if you spec for staff for mobility only.

So if a player decides to sacrifice offense and other utility (like stealth, poison, evades, CC) for having that cleanse and stunbreak on 12 sec CD (there is a prevention for double-tapping) not being able to retaliate during that time is fine by me.

It’s one of the very few cleanse mechanics we have, and frankly, if I should compare our cleanse/stunbreaks/stability/survival and damage mitigation to other classes, we are still inferior even with a full-cleanse and stunbreak on 10 sec CD.

Dojo.1867:

Why do you guys think healing power would fill AF faster and this would promote going berserker? It is the opposite. Currently healing power does nothign to fill AF faster because the whole thing is tick based. The current (!) system promotes berserker.

And seriously how do you think a more or less 10 second cd (and yes people do just toggle for druidic clarity) is okay for a stunbreak and full condi cleanse. Even 20 seconds would be questionable here.

Thing is, you can’t be sure it’s always available to you every 10 seconds. 20 seconds icd and you can throw the trait in the trash. An increase to the cd is not the solution to this problem, if there even IS a problem there to begin with.

And most importantly, Druid has been told to be the best healer in the game. While even now we are stuck with the most toxic design for a healer (not being able to heal when you need to but rather only after you finished a tutorial level of Astral Bar minigame).

And that is wrong. Almost all players don’t like the design because the healing pattern is absurd. You have to heal as little as possible until you get your CAF and then you have to heal as much as possible and leave as early as possible to be able to enter the form when you need it again.

Literally doubling the CD is ridiculous. You haven’t even thought of PvE point of view. And no, I refuse to accept this nerf while we have Insta-gibbing thieves that have mobility unmatched to anybody else while being able to evade around for the same time as a tank druid can sustain himself (while thief is being berserker).
PvP should be balanced around results. Not ideals. And while powerful classes get buffed, weak/mediocre classes like druid get constantly nerfed for no objective reason.

If a player is forced to build around a certain mechanic and play according to a certain mechanic at the same time – he is supposed to be rewarded by doing so.

In pvp, druids survivability is balanced, we can’t survive long while being on point when being focused fired. Reapers give mender druids hard time and also daredevils as +1. It’s not like couple of months ago when we could hold point vs 3 players. As mentioned above, the only thing that is out of balance is the bristleback F2 damage, mainly due to the number of spikes bug. Take this away and mending druids are just a good support profession, I don’t see any harm in that.

In WVW we are immortal and it’s kinda annoying, but also so many other sustain builds, A.net is less concerned regarding balance issues in WVW, especially 1vs1’s. Yesterday I tried to roam with a druid GS remorseless build with 2300 power, ~210% crit damage , 50%crit chance(with the prema fury), I was roaming in BG and wasn’t been able to overpower tanky sustain builds(some of them druids) most of fights were ended up as a draw after long boring fights. (Things got a bit better when I changed pet to bristleback ).

If anything, we need to ask ourselves, can a druid build for damage dealing in efficient way sacrificing some of its survivability tools? Does this trade –off is even possible ATM?

Dojo.1867:

Why do you guys think healing power would fill AF faster and this would promote going berserker? It is the opposite. Currently healing power does nothign to fill AF faster because the whole thing is tick based. The current (!) system promotes berserker.

And seriously how do you think a more or less 10 second cd (and yes people do just toggle for druidic clarity) is okay for a stunbreak and full condi cleanse. Even 20 seconds would be questionable here.

mathematically better to gain AF based on more hits Hits and more tick sources , aka Quickness for rapid attacks will charge AF faster than using a Beserker stat as doing so you can go other routes to apply Condi applications of damage too , again improving AF gain to a second source + the AoE regen ticks from healing spring or regen (shouts on resounding timbre.)

the other thing you have to consider is where are our stun break options outside of Wilderness knowledge and shared anguish? Protect me , thats it done .

all the other stun breaks lightening reflexes and Zyphers speed are both Medium to High cooldowns without wilderness knowledge and if thats the case you won’t even go into the druid trait line.

just having one source of ticks supplying the Bulk AF of % (beserker only) isn’t the answer its about Asteral energy management in the form of Hits/regen ticks per target wider the coverage the better .

as always doing more Hits/ticks/sources is better than a small % of a single larger number, hence why its good at 1vs1’s but lacks the energy to enter CA form often , as the players around increase the AF is gain more effectively when dealing out the right amount of sources to those allies and targets making it possible to enter CA when needed on average every 15-20seconds with 3 other targets nearby .

you , a +1 and the pet , without these additional targets vs a single foe a CA form will take over 20seconds to charge.

onther reminder is if a pet is dead , it can’t be healed so AF gain looses a energy source increasing the time it takes to go into CA form.

as Lughlong arm points out “tried to roam with a druid GS remorseless build with 2300 power, ~210% crit damage , 50%crit chance(with the prema fury), I was roaming in BG and wasn’t been able to overpower tanky sustain builds(some of them druids) most of fights were ended up as a draw after long boring fights. (Things got a bit better when I changed pet to bristleback ).”

druid clearly has a impact on outgoing damage and needing a more Reliant pet to make up for the damage loss , on a plus side the Bristleback is tough has quite a bit of HP making it a great source for AF energy.

its quite a simple system based on the amount of effected targets improves its odds of being ready , though it is fun when a druid is supporting a MM necro the AF energy charges up very quickly again more bodies to heal.

its not a druid issue for WvW , its the fact there are so many bodies around its Unlimitied energy sources pretty much means its always ready,

for PVP its Limited energy sources that reduce how often you can entre CA form.

but overall AF energy is balanced around 5 man groups to Equal a full bar every 15seconds with correct energy sources.

Did a double take when I read the extra attribute points from BM are part of the issues. Must be some good stuff thinking the extra 150 points from that line are workin’ that well. You know why the damage kind of falls off when not taking BM? Those minors on top of the extra bonus stats.

With how Anet went into distributing the core 5th trait lines, reducing the extra attribute points to “make it less mandatory” means moving those as a baseline increase. But hey, more buffs for us, right? I’m down with that. ;]

You have to consider that direct damage in this game scales exponentially. Stats like power, precision and ferocity amplify each other. 150 is not a huge amount but if pets with usually zero precision suddenly get some precision or if pets with decent precision suddenly get some ferocity it really shows.

Some clean testing would have to be done but I estimate the dmg difference between traited and untraited pets around 30-40%. Considering that arenanet wants pet dmg to be a major part of ranger dmg this is too much in my opinion. And it also is what makes the new pets feel like doing too much dmg. It didn’t really show with the old pets because those went from terrible to okay. New pets go from okay to over the top.

And about AF. The system I would expect is a system which allows to fill astral form consistently dependent on how much heal sources AND healing power I put into my build. And the AF generated by damage should be a bit lower but still decent and most importantly the AF generation rate should be same across all weapons, not significantly higher on those that have very many little hits.

The way it is now AF does not get generated by your healing. Not at all. It gets generated by you taking damage (not being full health) and waiting for all the passive regens to fill the bar. Honestly, at this point they could even just make it a fixed number as long as you are not full hp. Their system completely missed the goal.

Dojo.1867:

Some clean testing would have to be done but I estimate the dmg difference between traited and untraited pets around 30-40%.

On critical hits possibly, but not because of the stat increase, but because of Pet’s Prowess (20% more damage on critical hits only) and Loud Whistle (flat 10% damage increase).

Not counting critical hits, the traitline is nowhere near a 30-40% damage increase, not even close.

Dojo.1867:

Considering that arenanet wants pet dmg to be a major part of ranger dmg this is too much in my opinion.

What is too much? The damage increase from the BM traitline? So you want to give that as a baseline I guess, right? Fine by me.
If you on the other hand simply want to nerf pet damage yet again with no compensation, then I’m done discussing this with you. Rangers/druids aren’t at the top of the food chain in any game mode.

OGDeadHead.8326:

Dojo.1867:

Considering that arenanet wants pet dmg to be a major part of ranger dmg this is too much in my opinion.

What is too much? The damage increase from the BM traitline? So you want to give that as a baseline I guess, right? Fine by me.

Pretty much. What I would do is nerf the attribute bonus to like 100 instead of 150 for a start. Together with the bugfix for bristle f2 hot pets would be completely fine then.

And together with that change I would buff all the old pets and wyvern.

So you say, nerf all pets by reducing attribute bonus and then buff all pets except for smokescale and bristleback? Here is an idea, nerf smokescale and bristleback?

I for one will say I CAN spam CAF every 10 seconds, and I do toggle in/out non stop. Between my shouts giving regen (to my pet and self minimally) and SotW I can refill my CA bar wicked fast. Even faster if you also think about my LB 2 & 5, staff AA.

With that said…. I DO NOT THINK we deserve any type of CAF nerf as it stands. If we got a COMPLETELY redesigned CAF then I’d agree, nerf it. CAF as it stand now SUCKS! CAF is has 2 good skills in most situations, 3 & 5, I typically hit those two and toggle right back out.

LughLongArm.5460:

So you say, nerf all pets by reducing attribute bonus and then buff all pets except for smokescale and bristleback? Here is an idea, nerf smokescale and bristleback?

Buff all pets to the same viable level as smokescale, nerf bristleback f2 by increasing CD to 15s and reducing dmg by 15%. Smokescale is fine as is, if you think it’s not well idgaf.

Edit: also give pets some type of perma speed boost so they can’t be kited as easily. That’s the whole reason you rarely see birds/dogs/cats/spiders/etc… Smokescale can just teleport and stick to your target unlike any other pet. If you think pets being kiting isn’t an issue then you don’t belong on ranger forum, go back to your mains section.

LughLongArm.5460:

So you say, nerf all pets by reducing attribute bonus and then buff all pets except for smokescale and bristleback? Here is an idea, nerf smokescale and bristleback?

You completely missed the argument. Even smokescale and bristlebac are currently only mediocre without BM traited. Rest of the pets is pretty much garbage.

Your suggestion is terrible, lazy and short sighted but propably what Arenanet will do.

Dojo.1867:

LughLongArm.5460:

So you say, nerf all pets by reducing attribute bonus and then buff all pets except for smokescale and bristleback? Here is an idea, nerf smokescale and bristleback?

You completely missed the argument. Even smokescale and bristlebac are currently only mediocre without BM traited. Rest of the pets is pretty much garbage.

Your suggestion is terrible, lazy and short sighted but propably what Arenanet will do.

I havnt suggest anything, just reflected the logic flaws of your suggution. You saied:
1)“nerf the attribute bonus to like 100 instead of 150”
2) “buff all the old pets and wyvern”

LOGIC = NERF SMOKESCALRE AND BRITSALBACK

It’s like Screwing a bulb by spinning the man holding the bulb.
Its your idea, not mine, and if A.net will take on your idea, can’t blame them for implementing it in the lgoicla way.

Dojo.1867:

You have to consider that direct damage in this game scales exponentially. Stats like power, precision and ferocity amplify each other. 150 is not a huge amount but if pets with usually zero precision suddenly get some precision or if pets with decent precision suddenly get some ferocity it really shows.

Some clean testing would have to be done but I estimate the dmg difference between traited and untraited pets around 30-40%.

Again there, guy. 10% damage modifier and 300 ferocity from minors, on-top of the 150 points. The only pet with low precision, or in your words, “zero” precision are Porcines. The rest see a damage boost since all other pets have already decent base precision, with the exception of birds and felines that have exceptional precision.

Where your post above (and below) falls flat is you propose BM attributes be lowered by 50 points, which again, means that would become baseline. BM will still be doing what it’s meant to do.

If you want your proposal to have any weight, elaborate the “buff old pets” point in your original post. The rest you can keep out.

Allison The Strange.4519:

Buff all pets to the same viable level as smokescale, nerf bristleback f2 by increasing CD to 15s and reducing dmg by 15%. Smokescale is fine as is, if you think it’s not well idgaf.

Edit: also give pets some type of perma speed boost so they can’t be kited as easily. That’s the whole reason you rarely see birds/dogs/cats/spiders/etc… Smokescale can just teleport and stick to your target unlike any other pet. If you think pets being kiting isn’t an issue then you don’t belong on ranger forum, go back to your mains section.

Bristle F2 has already 15s CD (12s only traited) and bm already gives pets a permanent 30% movement speed increase. The movement speed is not the main problem (at least for traited pets). It is more that they can’t attack while moving and many attacks have too long casttimes (wyverns are the best example).

Adjusting castimes/animations and cooldown of old pet’s abilities are imo the best (easy) way to improve them without too much efford. Some core issues will remain, because they would need a complete rework, which is not very realistic, but it would bring them at least a little bit closer to bristle/smokescale (Tiger for example – while not as strong as those two pets – is usefull in certain builds (PvE, remorseless builds), other cats are significantly weaker, because their F2 is less usefull – way too long cd for mediocre effects and way too long and bugged casttime on jungle stalker).

Take any of the non HoT pets and see if the damage is too much. Was it? Did not think so…

Nerfs are not part of my diet, was also wondering if there is a gluten free option?

Sure, they are going to balance rev, scrapper, necro, and Ele by nerfing Druid. All will be happy (except maybe thieves and warriors).

People losing their kitten over smokescales will never stop being hilarious, considering their stats are basically identical to the much-maligned bear family. They just have non-terrible skills that allow them to hit things.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

People losing their kitten over smokescales will never stop being hilarious, considering their stats are basically identical to the much-maligned bear family. They just have non-terrible skills that allow them to hit things.

Pretty much, if every other pet hit as consistently as Smokescale then they’d be used just as much if not more considering how useful some of the other pets F2 are.

Erg. We ate nerf. Happy now?

Archon.6480:

Erg. We ate nerf. Happy now?

Some of the bigger issues remains un-nerfed.

Will eat nerfs? Druid’s been eating nerfs since open beta. This is nothing new to the community.