Guild Wars 2

The trait changes last June, HoT and to a lesser extent even additional “balance patches” brought massive buffs to all classes. Now many people (including me) seem to dislike the power creep that’s currently characterizing the game balance, especially in PvP/WvW. And Anet keeps buffing more and more (not saying buffs in general are bad – many things definitely need improvements – but buffs alone aren’t an answer to bad balance).
Now if i look at class forums i see mostly people asking for improvements and suggestion for buffs. Outside of the occasional “mimimi, class xyz is op, pls nerf”-thread of course. But no constructive discussions about how to tone down the power creep without destroying certain traits/skills/builds/play styles.

So, let’s assume, anet finally decides to bring elite specs in line with core builds, to reduce the power creep generally and nerfs all classes significantly. This has to include ranger of course. How do you think should ranger/druid be nerfed in this hypothetical case? And why?

I also want to remind everyone who reads about all those nerfs that i’m NOT talking about the current state of the game, but about a theoretical situation where everyone has less dmg and sustain, less cc and stab, less condis and boons, less … everything. A situation where the need for nerfs is undeniable.
Just in case you want to respond something like “ranger doesn’t need any nerfs”.

Because it’s easier to quote myself…

Swagger.1459:

Elite specializations were designed with HoT and raids in mind, and you are not going to get those butchered.

Two things need to be done…

1. Core weapon and slot skills need to be up to elite specialization standards. Some skills could use a major cool down reductions and/or increased potency. There is not any reason why we need over 20+ seconds on weapon skills and over 30+ seconds on slot skills in most cases for this game.

2. Balance separately for pvp (spvp/wvw/eotm) modes and pve modes. We only really need 2 sets of balancing for certain problematic things and game mechanics.

Players wanted more difficult content and we got that with HoT… Players and developers were tired of the dps only meta, and that’s very very slowly changing too. GW2 is going through profession growing pains, but the game at level 80 is not going to regress back to the age of core tyria.

I’m fully aware that anet has no intention to bring down elitespecs to “core level” and that general nerfs won’t happen. This is why i’m talking about a hypothetical case. Just because i’m curious, what people would think in the described situation.

I’m sure you are right about PvE/raids being an important reason for anet to keep it this way. However i think it is a bad reason, because PvE encounters can be altered according to the power of the classes, it doesn’t have to be the other way arround. And you don’t need op builds for “difficult content”, they just trivialize it …

As I see it, they will never bring the elite specs in line with the core ones. And they shouldn’t, that’s why they’re called elite specs, they are meant to be stronger – you can and will only be able to pick one elite spec. The increased difficulty in the expansion demanded a bit of powercreep on its own, there are more factors in play here besides PvP/WvW.

Anet made a huge mistake here, in my opinion: some elite specs grant a new role to the base class(tempest,druid are healbots/support, dragonhunter ranged kiter dps) while others are a superior extension of their base class(daredevil acrobatics 2.0, scrapper bruiser 2.0). If you nerf the latter there won’t be much reason to play them. And if druid were as weak as core ranger, I’m guessing many players would have avoided it, since it shoehorns you into a role you didn’t ask for when you chose your class.

Basically, you need an incentive to play them. Since some of the specs were poorly received as concept, I don’t want to imagine how would have they been received if they weren’t more useful than the base class.

Don’t get me wrong, I want them toned down. There’s a lot of spamming going on, dps/survivability ration is wonky, but honestly, I’d rather first see old traits/skills made viable(not strong, just viable) and then shaving off some of the powercreep.

Anyway, to be in line with the topic, I honestly can’t think of a single thing that core ranger has too strong – quite the opposite. The only thing druid has that sets him so far apart are the pets and CA. I’d leave the pets how they are, since the old ones are just horrible and I’d probably scale the amount of healing you do depending on how many targets are affected. If you’re alone, you shouldn’t be able to fully heal with no consequences, so I’d drastically nerf the heal with only one target(you) and keep it the same as it is now with 3-4 targets. I’d probably eliminate CA skill 4 and add something like “Your pet’s next attack can’t crit and will steal 2 boons and heal you for 4x damage dealt”

Protective Ward never made any sense to me. Just passively gain protection and granting weakness just by getting hit? Sure, it has an ICD, but it’s just so lame.

At least give it some sort of requirement. Maybe it kicks in at x% of health. Or after you successfully block or evade an attack. Or something.

Vicky.4563:

Protective Ward never made any sense to me. Just passively gain protection and granting weakness just by getting hit? Sure, it has an ICD, but it’s just so lame.

At least give it some sort of requirement. Maybe it kicks in at x% of health. Or after you successfully block or evade an attack. Or something.

Please don’t, boring doesn’t mean bad, and any of these changes doesn’t even make it GM worthy.

It falls in line with almost every other passive damage reduction any other class has, but because it’s a GM, it’s a protection proc trait instead of a constant passive bonus, and as such, already has better counterplay than any number of those other traits.

jcbroe.4329:

Vicky.4563:

Protective Ward never made any sense to me. Just passively gain protection and granting weakness just by getting hit? Sure, it has an ICD, but it’s just so lame.

At least give it some sort of requirement. Maybe it kicks in at x% of health. Or after you successfully block or evade an attack. Or something.

Please don’t, boring doesn’t mean bad, and any of these changes doesn’t even make it GM worthy.

It falls in line with almost every other passive damage reduction any other class has, but because it’s a GM, it’s a protection proc trait instead of a constant passive bonus, and as such, already has better counterplay than any number of those other traits.

True. At least it’s a boon that can be corrupted or stripped and not something scrappers unique boon.

But you realize since druid is becoming meta, it’s going to be a prime target for the next round of nerf batting right? I’d rather try to find something marginal we can nerf than wait for Anet to come up with one.

A cooldown increase of that degree on both guard AND protect me is a pretty big hit to shout ranger survivability as well as there group support. Keep in mind guard and protect me aren’t just for themselves. But for there team mates as well.

If you increase the gap by which these can be used while ignoring the drawbacks of the skills. (Guard for example forces a pet swap if you use it as a support skill in order to avoid pet death. Protect Me’s taunt can simply not function due to cleanse, stunbreaks, and stability). Even by something seemingly as small as an additional ten seconds. Can have a significant affect. On the overall sustain and utility of the build that may stretch farther than you are seeing right now.

With as much experience with shouts as I have at this point. I feel that this would cause a rather large amount of damage to the playstyle.

But no where NEAR as much as your suggestion with heal as one. At the moment a shout rangers ONLY true gimmick is its ability to copy boons back and forth from the pet. Its how its burst WORKS. If you take away heal as one in its current form. You take away a MASSIVE amount of what is necessary for a shout ranger to function in the current meta.

I can say with certainty that I simply would NOT have the damage necessary to kill a condi reaper, a dragonhunter, or a warrior as quickly as I need to without that ability. If you lower both our offensive AND our defensive effectiveness simultaneously (atleast to the degree you are suggesting). I believe you will end up pushing shouts out of ANY form of viability entirely. The effect of your proposed nerfs extends quite a bit further than I believe you are currently picturing due to the multiplicative nature of the shout ranger playstyle.

I will say this. If you are suggesting to nerf these skills due to there effectiveness when combined with druid. I urge you to target the druid build itself instead. If we start balancing with the assumption that druid is taken. Then druid only becomes MORE mandatory than it already is. Not less.

A shout RANGER is by no means over powered. Or even Over Performing. Infact I would argue the base shout ranger (MM NM BM full shouts) is as close to a balanced build as I have SEEN lately. It only becomes truly strong when druid is thrown into the mix instead of MM. As druid offers very high levels of disengage, sustain, and control capability. Maybe we should be looking at that instead of nerfing what isn’t the issue n order to account for the real problem.

Sadly, we’ve gone into the realm of no return with all elite specs. They are needed for the classes if the player wants to stay competitive in both PvE and PvP.

Any drastic change, even one to bring the spec in line with the core lines, will be met with rage. So, instead of nerfing, ANet needs to bring the core lines on par with the elite spec. Again, sadly, yes . . . power creep.

But there’s no turning this ship around now.

Vicky.4563:

jcbroe.4329:

Vicky.4563:

Protective Ward never made any sense to me. Just passively gain protection and granting weakness just by getting hit? Sure, it has an ICD, but it’s just so lame.

At least give it some sort of requirement. Maybe it kicks in at x% of health. Or after you successfully block or evade an attack. Or something.

Please don’t, boring doesn’t mean bad, and any of these changes doesn’t even make it GM worthy.

It falls in line with almost every other passive damage reduction any other class has, but because it’s a GM, it’s a protection proc trait instead of a constant passive bonus, and as such, already has better counterplay than any number of those other traits.

True. At least it’s a boon that can be corrupted or stripped and not something scrappers unique boon.

But you realize since druid is becoming meta, it’s going to be a prime target for the next round of nerf batting right? I’d rather try to find something marginal we can nerf than wait for Anet to come up with one.

It was introduced with core ranger buffs, and it’s one of those things that while it might be strong on Druid, it isn’t as strong on core ranger. If anything, it gave core ranger, at the time, just enough of a tool to finally poke it’s head into viability because it didn’t die when it was looked at or as hard countered by thieves.

Blanket nerfs to the whole class like that are never good, because even if they affect the power build, they drive all other builds that are just viable or on the brink of being viable out of their positions and skew the whole equilibrium, underpowering the class.

If Druid is what we’re discussing as being too strong (or any other elite spec), then nerfs should only target the weapons, traits, and skills introduced by the elite spec since the idea is to close the margin between the core class and the elite specs with the balancing, and hitting things like core traits or like shouts doesn’t do anything to reduce the margin, it just hurts the whole class overall.

Sardath.8524:

I’d drastically nerf the heal with only one target(you) and keep it the same as it is now with 3-4 targets. I’d probably eliminate CA skill 4 and add something like “Your pet’s next attack can’t crit and will steal 2 boons and heal you for 4x damage dealt”

So you want to make the druids skills pretty much worthless unless you’re in a group/team? Yeah that sounds like a good suggestion… not.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

I also want to remind everyone who reads about all those nerfs that i’m NOT talking about the current state of the game, but about a theoretical situation where everyone has less dmg and sustain, less cc and stab, less condis and boons, less … everything. A situation where the need for nerfs is undeniable.
Just in case you want to respond something like “ranger doesn’t need any nerfs”.

So the idea is to discuss a set of hypothetical nerfs to a class after the entire game roster has already gone through a significant set of earlier hypothetical nerfs?

What exactly was the goal here?

The plan is to make more elite specs, not make the elite spec on par with core.

Substance E.4852:

So the idea is to discuss a set of hypothetical nerfs to a class after the entire game roster has already gone through a significant set of earlier hypothetical nerfs?

What exactly was the goal here?

Ya this thread is just asking for trouble. Trolls and devs that don’t play ranger don’t need to be reading this. When the devs release a full list of nerfs to all 9 elite specs (never going to happen), we can talk.

Hm. I totally disagree with the OP and premise of this thread. The answer is to add more elite specs, and to continue buffing the core trait lines. I know many will scream power creep, but I say passive defense mitigation. As damage output from direct actions increases, the effects of passive defense traits are diminished. That is good.

HoT increased the speed and active gameplay required for Ranger, through the Druid elite spec. Reduced cooldowns, fast pets, low cooldow utilities, and fast movement have all made Ranger a pleasure to play.

Going backwards would be extremely boring!

Eurantien.4632:

The plan is to make more elite specs, not make the elite spec on par with core.

This is the philosophy I agree with, design wise.

Shadelang.3012:

A cooldown increase of that degree on both guard AND protect me is a pretty big hit to shout ranger survivability as well as there group support. Keep in mind guard and protect me aren’t just for themselves. But for there team mates as well.

I think, it would bring those shouts in line with survival skills like LR and QZ – skills which were pretty good pre-HoT. I agree that shouts shouldn’t be nerfed in the current state of the game, however if anet decides, nerfs (to defensive skills) have to happen – shouts are the utility skills i would look at first.

Shadelang.3012:

But no where NEAR as much as your suggestion with heal as one. At the moment a shout rangers ONLY true gimmick is its ability to copy boons back and forth from the pet. Its how its burst WORKS. If you take away heal as one in its current form. You take away a MASSIVE amount of what is necessary for a shout ranger to function in the current meta.

I wouldn’t call boon/might stacking a gimmick or only important for a full shout ranger – it is more or less mandatory for many viable builds, including other classes. And this is imo a big problem. Boons grant dmg and defense with little investment, they allow for builds with high dmg and survivability at the same time – and all other builds become less viable, because the have to give up either dmg or survivability.
Again, you are absolutely right that those might/boon stacking capability is important in the current meta. Not only for (shout) ranger. And i don’t like it. Generally. Because it limits diversity.

Substance E.4852:

What exactly was the goal here?

Why i created this thread?

1. Curiosity. I simply wanted to know, what other ranger players think about nerfs to their own class. Usually nerf requests come from players of other classes who often doesn’t know about what they are talking. I didn’t want to know, if ranger should be nerfed – i already knew the obvious answer from most ppl. I wanted to know about the “how”, if nerfs were inevitable. This is why i created this “hypothetical scenario”. Didn’t work out well, whatever …

2. I know, anet has no intention to tone down the power creep, but nerfs can still happen. Nobody is safe. And if nobody, who is familiar with a class, gives them ideas about how nerfs could look like, they might make it worse than it could be.

Fluffball.8307:

Ya this thread is just asking for trouble. Trolls and devs that don’t play ranger don’t need to be reading this. When the devs release a full list of nerfs to all 9 elite specs (never going to happen), we can talk.

I don’t understand this fear of talking about nerfs. Luckily devs doesn’t pick up every random suggestion posted in the forums, doesn’t matter if it is about nerfs or buffs. They probably don’t even read it. And i’m not requesting nerfs for ranger/druid in the current meta (i didn’t post this in other class forums because ranger is the class i’m most familiar with) I just think, nerfs don’t have to be bad in general. But if trolls and clueless people are the only ones thinking and talking about nerfs, it is not surprising, that nerfs tend to be bad for a class.

Archon.6480:

HoT increased the speed and active gameplay required for Ranger, through the Druid elite spec. Reduced cooldowns, fast pets, low cooldow utilities, and fast movement have all made Ranger a pleasure to play.

Going backwards would be extremely boring!

For me, meta druid builds are among the easiest and most boring builds i have ever played. Lower cooldowns make it more forgiving to waste skills because they are ready again sooner. It becomes more “spammy” which can feel faster – but it doesn’t become more active or skillfull. PW – important for druids sustain – 100% passive. High amount of boons create builds with high survivability and dmg. Pets (smokescale/bristle) need less player input to be useful, compared to older “meta” pets like the wolf. The stronger traits and skills are, the bigger their impact on the outcome of a fight – and the lower the impact of the player. If it is fun for you – ok, i can’t deny it. But there are reasons to not like it, for me and for other players among all classes.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Archon.6480:

HoT increased the speed and active gameplay required for Ranger, through the Druid elite spec. Reduced cooldowns, fast pets, low cooldow utilities, and fast movement have all made Ranger a pleasure to play.

Going backwards would be extremely boring!

For me, meta druid builds are among the easiest and most boring builds i have ever played. Lower cooldowns make it more forgiving to waste skills because they are ready again sooner. It becomes more “spammy” which can feel faster – but it doesn’t become more active or skillfull. PW – important for druids sustain – 100% passive. High amount of boons create builds with high survivability and dmg. Pets (smokescale/bristle) need less player input to be useful, compared to older “meta” pets like the wolf. The stronger traits and skills are, the bigger their impact on the outcome of a fight – and the lower the impact of the player. If it is fun for you – ok, i can’t deny it. But there are reasons to not like it, for me and for other players among all classes.

Hm, I think it is extremely difficult to fight good Revenants, and Mesmers. One mistake and you are toast. It’s only spammy if you and your opponent have little mechanical knowledge. If you spam your skills against good players you’ll be insta-gibbed… Even with tanky Druid.

The timing on your pet burst is crucial to your damage so if you don’t do it at the right time or create a situation were it can’t be avoided, you’ll loose against good players. If you mindlessly spam your pet skills or leave it to mindlessly run around you’ll loose against anyone with skill. They’ll easily avoid it and smash your face in.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

For me, meta druid builds are among the easiest and most boring builds i have ever played.

I am curious what meta was more exciting than this one? I’ve played PvP since launch. Shortbow Machine Gun, Regen Ranger, Spirit Ranger, ADST BeastMaster, SotF Bleed-bomber, Dual Sword Melee, LB Camper, ADST Bunker?

I liked Dual Swords and ADST Bunker the best, but both were weaker than other classes at the time and neither is comparable to Druid. Which one would you like to go back to?

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Shadelang.3012:

A cooldown increase of that degree on both guard AND protect me is a pretty big hit to shout ranger survivability as well as there group support. Keep in mind guard and protect me aren’t just for themselves. But for there team mates as well.

I think, it would bring those shouts in line with survival skills like LR and QZ – skills which were pretty good pre-HoT. I agree that shouts shouldn’t be nerfed in the current state of the game, however if anet decides, nerfs (to defensive skills) have to happen – shouts are the utility skills i would look at first.

Shadelang.3012:

But no where NEAR as much as your suggestion with heal as one. At the moment a shout rangers ONLY true gimmick is its ability to copy boons back and forth from the pet. Its how its burst WORKS. If you take away heal as one in its current form. You take away a MASSIVE amount of what is necessary for a shout ranger to function in the current meta.

I wouldn’t call boon/might stacking a gimmick or only important for a full shout ranger – it is more or less mandatory for many viable builds, including other classes. And this is imo a big problem. Boons grant dmg and defense with little investment, they allow for builds with high dmg and survivability at the same time – and all other builds become less viable, because the have to give up either dmg or survivability.
Again, you are absolutely right that those might/boon stacking capability is important in the current meta. Not only for (shout) ranger. And i don’t like it. Generally. Because it limits diversity.

Substance E.4852:

What exactly was the goal here?

Why i created this thread?

1. Curiosity. I simply wanted to know, what other ranger players think about nerfs to their own class. Usually nerf requests come from players of other classes who often doesn’t know about what they are talking. I didn’t want to know, if ranger should be nerfed – i already knew the obvious answer from most ppl. I wanted to know about the “how”, if nerfs were inevitable. This is why i created this “hypothetical scenario”. Didn’t work out well, whatever …

2. I know, anet has no intention to tone down the power creep, but nerfs can still happen. Nobody is safe. And if nobody, who is familiar with a class, gives them ideas about how nerfs could look like, they might make it worse than it could be.

Fluffball.8307:

Ya this thread is just asking for trouble. Trolls and devs that don’t play ranger don’t need to be reading this. When the devs release a full list of nerfs to all 9 elite specs (never going to happen), we can talk.

I don’t understand this fear of talking about nerfs. Luckily devs doesn’t pick up every random suggestion posted in the forums, doesn’t matter if it is about nerfs or buffs. They probably don’t even read it. And i’m not requesting nerfs for ranger/druid in the current meta (i didn’t post this in other class forums because ranger is the class i’m most familiar with) I just think, nerfs don’t have to be bad in general. But if trolls and clueless people are the only ones thinking and talking about nerfs, it is not surprising, that nerfs tend to be bad for a class.

Archon.6480:

HoT increased the speed and active gameplay required for Ranger, through the Druid elite spec. Reduced cooldowns, fast pets, low cooldow utilities, and fast movement have all made Ranger a pleasure to play.

Going backwards would be extremely boring!

For me, meta druid builds are among the easiest and most boring builds i have ever played. Lower cooldowns make it more forgiving to waste skills because they are ready again sooner. It becomes more “spammy” which can feel faster – but it doesn’t become more active or skillfull. PW – important for druids sustain – 100% passive. High amount of boons create builds with high survivability and dmg. Pets (smokescale/bristle) need less player input to be useful, compared to older “meta” pets like the wolf. The stronger traits and skills are, the bigger their impact on the outcome of a fight – and the lower the impact of the player. If it is fun for you – ok, i can’t deny it. But there are reasons to not like it, for me and for other players among all classes.

Bolded…

Ok, well why don’t you stream your spvp and wvw gameplay and show us how easy it is?

What’s this easy build that you play?

They just need to balance the new pets. No reason a pet should hit a thief for 5k + without going into beastmastery and without it even being an f2 skill. Pet is one of the few reasons they are good at side capping.

Just let this thread die

FrownyClown.8402:

They just need to balance the new pets. No reason a pet should hit a thief for 5k + without going into beastmastery and without it even being an f2 skill. Pet is one of the few reasons they are good at side capping.

The new pets are fine, they’re what all pets should have been from the beginning (that is, a an actual threat to enemy players).

The smokescale has virtually identical stats to bears, the pet class that’s a punchline in every game mode, and the bristleback has almost the same stat spread as devourers. Movesets that allows them to actually do their kitten jobs go a long way.

Archon.6480:

I am curious what meta was more exciting than this one?

Every pre-HoT meta? Well, i can only speak about the time i play this game (about 2 years), but for me it was definitely more fun before the expansion. Even if ranger wasn’t meta, it was totally fine and fun in PvP with different builds unless we are talking about organised top tier PvP. Actually i never cared much about meta, because many non-meta builds worked quite well too. Now somewhat viable non-meta builds are much more limited, especially in PvP. It is a bit better in WvW, still not satisfying for me.

Swagger.1459:

Ok, well why don’t you stream your spvp and wvw gameplay and show us how easy it is?

I won’t stream because i doubt my pc can handle streaming and i’m not going to bother with playing boring builds again. But if i would, what would you expect to see? Me farming noobs in WvW 1vs3? Getting steamrolled by a zerg? Winning pvp matches against other faceroll metabuilds? Or dieing and losing against those? Everything could happen. What would it (dis)prove?
“Easy and boring” is primarily a subjective opinion. My opinion after playing ranger for about 2 years in WvW and PvP, and you can’t deny it (and i know, i’m not alone with my view about the state of class balance). It might be different for you and others, and i can’t deny it. We won’t agree – and it is ok for me. Isn’t topic of this thread anyways.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Archon.6480:

I am curious what meta was more exciting than this one?

Every pre-HoT meta? Well, i can only speak about the time i play this game (about 2 years), but for me it was definitely more fun before the expansion. Even if ranger wasn’t meta, it was totally fine and fun in PvP with different builds unless we are talking about organised top tier PvP. Actually i never cared much about meta, because many non-meta builds worked quite well too. Now somewhat viable non-meta builds are much more limited, especially in PvP. It is a bit better in WvW, still not satisfying for me.

Swagger.1459:

Ok, well why don’t you stream your spvp and wvw gameplay and show us how easy it is?

I won’t stream because i doubt my pc can handle streaming and i’m not going to bother with playing boring builds again. But if i would, what would you expect to see? Me farming noobs in WvW 1vs3? Getting steamrolled by a zerg? Winning pvp matches against other faceroll metabuilds? Or dieing and losing against those? Everything could happen. What would it (dis)prove?
“Easy and boring” is primarily a subjective opinion. My opinion after playing ranger for about 2 years in WvW and PvP, and you can’t deny it (and i know, i’m not alone with my view about the state of class balance). It might be different for you and others, and i can’t deny it. We won’t agree – and it is ok for me. Isn’t topic of this thread anyways.

Of course your pc can’t handle it…

I would expect to see you not having such an easy time as you are claiming.

“against other faceroll metabuilds”… So what are these “faceroll” meta builds of yours?

Use this and let’s see your “faceroll” builds in spvp, wvw and raids if you do them…

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/

Can you also provide us a screen of your spvp graph and wvw rank?

“My opinion” and “you can’t deny it”… I’m not sure how you can put those in the same sentence… Sure we can deny it, and we can bring up more factual information than you are providing.

This thread feels more like you died to a ranger/druid recently and are coming here to complain.

Sure, you can have a screen, even though i have no clue, how those more or less meaningless numbers matter for this discussion. Am I now qualified enough to post in this forum? Want my AP too?

I already wrote about what kind of builds i’m talking and why. And I have stated multiple times that this thread is not meant to be a “pls nerf ranger/druid”-thread and that i wish, anet would reduce the power creep in general, not just nerf ranger. Which is – again – NOT topic of this thread.

Honestly, I think Druid is in a really good place and doesn’t need to be nerfed. However, core ranger needs help to become a viable damage-dealing alternative to druid.

I think if there were some good damage buffs put into trait lines generally not associated with druid builds, there would be incentive for players to go with a 3 core ranger trait DPS build.

Dahkeus.8243:

Honestly, I think Druid is in a really good place and doesn’t need to be nerfed. However, core ranger needs help to become a viable damage-dealing alternative to druid.

I think if there were some good damage buffs put into trait lines generally not associated with druid builds, there would be incentive for players to go with a 3 core ranger trait DPS build.

I feel the issue isn’t our damage. Though damage boosts would be nice I don’t think we actually need them do to the nature of our burst skills.

We do enough damage to kill our targets. ESPECIALLY when specced for it.

The biggest issue is that those builds have one critical thing that druid provides almost instantly. The ability to get out of a lockdown. Similar to necros pre reaper the easiest way to kill a ranger was just to gank it. Signet of Stone is mandatory for core ranger buidls just because a ranger CAN’T get away from a gank. They can delay the death. But if the pressure continues they WILL die.

Druid gives you the ability to stop a gank. Druidic Clarity, Celestial Shadow, Glyph of Tides, Lunar Impact, Natural Convergence. FIVE tools that a druid has very easy access to that either stop you from getting locked down, give you the ability to disengage, or disrupt,counter pressure gank attempts.

The biggest vulnerability as a ranger and druid gives SO MUCH to cover for that. The healing is IMO the LEAST of the druids strengths when it comes to build making.

None of the other trait lines even come close to offering the same level of coverage. Not even slightly.

The only way I can see base ranger being viable again. Is not through damage increases. But by giving other trait lines the tools necessary to survive when they are so much as looked at without hiding behind a skill whos cooldown is long enough they can just keep hitting you and waiting for it to end.

Edit: Note this is from a PvP perspective. As far as PvE goes. We will NEVER get personnel damage on par with other classes as long as spotter, frost spirit, and grace of the land exist. Our ability to provide damage buffs IS our dps contribution. Until those are gone we won’t get anything on the level of most other classes. Just like mesmers and alactrity/quickness.

Edit2: Also druid is our only truly reliable method of condi clear that can’t just be chewed through bit by bit.

List of stuff that could be nerfed if need be (ranger/druid is in the top half of sPvP classes atm, but not dominating so not so sure there’s a need), ordered by the risk on making druid less fun to play. Not meant as a “all these should be nerfed!!” post, as such a nerf would druid at the state of bunker mesmers (i.e. gone).

1. Shorter duration on Ancient Seeds. I think cutting it to 4s would put it more inline with lingering light for power builds. Increasing cooldown would just make it annoyingly unreliable, so I wouldn’t want that,
2. Higher cooldown on staff #4 and staff #5.
3. Less healing or longer activation time on We heal as one. More cooldown would reduce swiftness uptime and lock PvE players into Natural stride, which would be bad. Non-druid builds rarely run beast mastery, so it’s a valid nerf target.
4. Higher cooldown but compensatorily more healing on staff #2. Would cut down astal force generation somewhat, without totally turning it into an autoattack weapon.
5. More cooldown on celestial avatar #4 and #5, basically making them once-per-F5 skills.
6. Fewer condition removed with Druidic clarity, e.g. just 5. Nerf it too much and people will use Cultivated synergy instead, which is a less fun trait, so can’t cut it too much.
7. Longer bristleback F2 recharge. That pet is a little strong. But then, ranger pets have been too weak in the past.
8. More cooldown or less range (but at least 900) on staff #3. This would cut ranger mobility, not just support, and could hurt the fell and fun of the weapon if nerfed more than very mildly.
9. Lower durations on Protective ward. This trait is used a lot by non-druid builds, so would be a pretty broad nerf.

Adrian Guardian.9480:

3. Less healing or longer activation time on We heal as one. More cooldown would reduce swiftness uptime and lock PvE players into Natural stride, which would be bad. Non-druid builds rarely run beast mastery, so it’s a valid nerf target.

Nerfs to any non-druid related healing would hurt those builds the most, that don’t have access to the additional healing from the elite line. And bm is a quite important traitline for non-druid builds too.

And i don’t think, nerfs to staff would be the right way. It is not a bad weapon, very good for team support obviously – what it is meant to be after all – but not what makes druid so strong overall.

Adrian Guardian.9480:

List of stuff that could be nerfed if need be (ranger/druid is in the top half of sPvP classes atm, but not dominating so not so sure there’s a need), ordered by the risk on making druid less fun to play. Not meant as a “all these should be nerfed!!” post, as such a nerf would druid at the state of bunker mesmers (i.e. gone).

1. Shorter duration on Ancient Seeds. I think cutting it to 4s would put it more inline with lingering light for power builds. Increasing cooldown would just make it annoyingly unreliable, so I wouldn’t want that,
2. Higher cooldown on staff #4 and staff #5.
3. Less healing or longer activation time on We heal as one. More cooldown would reduce swiftness uptime and lock PvE players into Natural stride, which would be bad. Non-druid builds rarely run beast mastery, so it’s a valid nerf target.
4. Higher cooldown but compensatorily more healing on staff #2. Would cut down astal force generation somewhat, without totally turning it into an autoattack weapon.
5. More cooldown on celestial avatar #4 and #5, basically making them once-per-F5 skills.
6. Fewer condition removed with Druidic clarity, e.g. just 5. Nerf it too much and people will use Cultivated synergy instead, which is a less fun trait, so can’t cut it too much.
7. Longer bristleback F2 recharge. That pet is a little strong. But then, ranger pets have been too weak in the past.
8. More cooldown or less range (but at least 900) on staff #3. This would cut ranger mobility, not just support, and could hurt the fell and fun of the weapon if nerfed more than very mildly.
9. Lower durations on Protective ward. This trait is used a lot by non-druid builds, so would be a pretty broad nerf.

Staff doesn’t need to be touched. Neither does Druidic clarity especially in the condi bomb meta now. So I disagree very strongly with you there. Keep in mind that your proposed changes will affect WvW too which is a condi heavy meta. Druid needs a way to deal with those. I do agree with bristleback, does need a shave…on cd or further dmg shave. Either one. Duration of ancient seeds should be reduced to 3-4 secs, so I agree with you on that one. I think that’ll bring druids more into line. Don’t touch anything else. I would ask you to edit your list if Anet actually listens to you because that’s horrible suggested changes to staff/druidic clarity.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

And i don’t think, nerfs to staff would be the right way. It is not a bad weapon, very good for team support obviously – what it is meant to be after all – but not what makes druid so strong overall.

My non-staff druid builds sie so much faster than the staff ones, especially in open PvE, simply replacing one weapon makes solo encounters noticly easier. So I disagree about it being only a support weapon, it’s a strong duelling weapon. And non-staff druid builds aren’t nerfworthy or meta stuff, that’s why I think the alternative of nerfing astral force per healing would be worse than nerfing staff. And the alternative of nerfing druid damage would annoy non-ranger players who’d play alongside a ~no-damage support build – plus we already have PvP eles and PvE mesmers to fill that role.

@Lettice: yes, I listed ancient seeds first because it’s an obvious thing to nerf, would help diversity (if druid actully need a nerf). But what would you nerf next if you had to pick something? Celestial avatar? Or something different from my choices, like mobility or glyphs?

Adrian Guardian.9480:

UmbraNoctis.1907:

And i don’t think, nerfs to staff would be the right way. It is not a bad weapon, very good for team support obviously – what it is meant to be after all – but not what makes druid so strong overall.

My non-staff druid builds sie so much faster than the staff ones, especially in open PvE, simply replacing one weapon makes solo encounters noticly easier. So I disagree about it being only a support weapon, it’s a strong duelling weapon. And non-staff druid builds aren’t nerfworthy or meta stuff, that’s why I think the alternative of nerfing astral force per healing would be worse than nerfing staff. And the alternative of nerfing druid damage would annoy non-ranger players who’d play alongside a ~no-damage support build – plus we already have PvP eles and PvE mesmers to fill that role.

@Lettice: yes, I listed ancient seeds first because it’s an obvious thing to nerf, would help diversity (if druid actully need a nerf). But what would you nerf next if you had to pick something? Celestial avatar? Or something different from my choices, like mobility or glyphs?

Why is your approach to nerf multiple things at once? I would nerf 1 or 2 key things like bristleback dmg, reducing ancient seeds duration…And see how that affects druid overall and go from there. Rather than overnerfing out of haste. That’s very illogical.

I would be careful about nerfing the bristleback f2 damage any further. It is getting very close to not worth using over the auto attack.

To put it into perspective remember how Longbow used to work? Before longbow got its buffs rapid fire did so little damage compared the time it took to cast that it was actually a dps loss over long range shot. And was only used at close range as a method of trying to keep your character on target with a class that could teleport or whirl through your hitbox

Bristleback f2 is already not worth using at long range due to its shotgun like spread on its projectiles (they don’t track and they fire in a spreading cone becoming more inaccurate the further away they are. You can test this on golems.) The damage becomes even worse if the target is moving at long range. Simply strafing slightly left or right causes the attacks to miss as your closing on the ranger.

What this means is that birstleback f2 is ALREADY only worth using at close range. This isn’t counting the heavy precast and aftercast animations attached to the skill.

I would argue that right now. Bristleback f2 is only worth using in PvP as a baited skill (you trick someone into coming into melee with you while the f2 is pre firing).

If we nerf the damage even further. It simply won’t be worth using over allowing the pet to continue its auto attack. Which is a TRACKING projectile that still hits hard.

Any more nerfs to the birstleback. And we run a real risk of it ending up how the longbow was pre buffs. I feel many people don’t remember just how terrible a weapon it was.

Edit: Note this is again from a PvP perspective. PvE is quite different due to the average size of enemy hitboxes.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Sure, you can have a screen, even though i have no clue, how those more or less meaningless numbers matter for this discussion. Am I now qualified enough to post in this forum? Want my AP too?

I already wrote about what kind of builds i’m talking and why. And I have stated multiple times that this thread is not meant to be a “pls nerf ranger/druid”-thread and that i wish, anet would reduce the power creep in general, not just nerf ranger. Which is – again – NOT topic of this thread.

Then you should be knowledgable enough to know that players wanted more difficult content and we received some profession improvements to match.

The devs have mostly neglected core professions for a long time and those need to be worked on. The devs are not going to squash elites sold with HoT all because of they haven’t made core profession development a main priority. Nor have they introduced new skills that were promised to be introduced regularly, which means they haven’t bothered to seriously review core skills either.

Your issue is with power creep, but that’s really an issue of core profession neglect. This is exacerbated by the fact that the devs have not made some balance separations between pve and pvp skills, and they have not yet tackled some problematic combat mechanics such as the cc heavy system (as admitted), mid combat stealth layering mechanics, and others… I could break down a whole lot of things that make for an unhealthy pvp environment here, but I’ll give this as one simple example coming from a former hard core pvper… 10 seconds is a lifetime in pvp combat, yet a 10 second skill that completely locks an opponent out of their skill set still remains in pvp… Is this poor attention to detail or lack of care for a quality pvp experience for players?

It would be easy for the devs to make blanket changes to the new profession stuff, but it’s wrong considering that profession and combat development has been on one of the lowest priority tables for them. And that’s also reason why spvp participation is not as good as it could be and why gw2 ranks so low on twitch.

For anyone talking about pets and dps stuff…

You all do realize that pets struggle against moving targets right?

Also, it would probably be helpful to look at some tested numbers before complaining about “power creep” here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4ft01q/qt_dps_benchmarkstests_for_all_classes/

Funny how Mesmer ranks lowest in dps in the test above, but we all know how well they rank in every game mode…

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4g7y77/heres_a_dps_comparison_of_43_ranger_builds/

We are far far far from there folks, save the torches and pitchforks and hypotheticals.

No.
Nerf the classes that can tank a team of 4 on a node on pvp. (Cough) Ele and engineer. (Cough). Eles are immune to crits, infi condi cleanse, healing more powerful than the druids aka “the first dedicated healer” and nearly 1/2 uptime of projectile denial. Even the new dps testing arena shows that a garbage ele can deal 5x more damage than any tanger/druid build.

Druids are in a good place. Bring the classes that are completely and utterly overpowered back in line.

UnitedChaos.8364:

No.
Nerf the classes that can tank a team of 4 on a node on pvp. (Cough) Ele and engineer. (Cough). Eles are immune to crits, infi condi cleanse, healing more powerful than the druids aka “the first dedicated healer” and nearly 1/2 uptime of projectile denial. Even the new dps testing arena shows that a garbage ele can deal 5x more damage than any tanger/druid build.

Druids are in a good place. Bring the classes that are completely and utterly overpowered back in line.

Most optimal dps’s put druid at around 15k solo damage. Unless auramancers are pulling 75k+ this isn’t true though I agree on the disgusting amount of sustain they get as a class that seems like it’s supposed to be a fragile spell caster.

The point where a full Minstrel’s Elementalist is harder to kill than a full Nomads Guardian is when things have gone off the rails…

Interesting point from Shadelang on bristleback. I’ve just assumed how strong it is from practice dummies (it killes the moving one faster than any other pet), but projectiles do represent a weakness.

Lettuce.2945:

Why is your approach to nerf multiple things at once? I would nerf 1 or 2 key things like bristleback dmg, reducing ancient seeds duration…And see how that affects druid overall and go from there. Rather than overnerfing out of haste. That’s very illogical.

It isn’t. I just ranked nerfs by how unpleasant different ones would be.

Substance E.4852:

UnitedChaos.8364:

No.
Nerf the classes that can tank a team of 4 on a node on pvp. (Cough) Ele and engineer. (Cough). Eles are immune to crits, infi condi cleanse, healing more powerful than the druids aka “the first dedicated healer” and nearly 1/2 uptime of projectile denial. Even the new dps testing arena shows that a garbage ele can deal 5x more damage than any tanger/druid build.

Druids are in a good place. Bring the classes that are completely and utterly overpowered back in line.

Most optimal dps’s put druid at around 15k solo damage. Unless auramancers are pulling 75k+ this isn’t true though I agree on the disgusting amount of sustain they get as a class that seems like it’s supposed to be a fragile spell caster.

The point where a full Minstrel’s Elementalist is harder to kill than a full Nomads Guardian is when things have gone off the rails…

Here’s a players dps results.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4ft01q/qt_dps_benchmarkstests_for_all_classes/
Elementalist topped the charts at 2-3x ranger/druids dps. But I’ll be honest when this isn’t a very accurate depiction of dps because mesmers have high burst damage, but with terrible sustain.

from everything i’ve seen over the last few months , Druid Deserves no more Nurfing , and Core ranger weapons need a Co-ed boost to bring them up a little more to around the 18-22kk mark for power builds as most of the other dps from that reddit thread are reaching anywhere from 18-32k and those at 28+K need to be down toned.

atm the damage window is huge , then one reason for that damage window is because of the sustain creep the rise of stronger healing/support specs though at the same time druids hit a wall where it’s given up too much personal dps for others to gain , leaving druids + rangers as a stand alone class as lowest tier without allies its not much of use and without its Huge healing potentional its not much use to anyone because of the lack of personal damage.

rangers weapons generaly the slower ones naturaly have a low dps , but things like Sword and SB , gs pets even have had animation changes , stat changes after cast (unintentional effects which have not been conpensated for, overall effecting rangers overall personal dps)

the desgin of core ranger is clearly hit fast and quickly combine those effects of CC+sub damage/healing to turn foes mistakes into your stengths .

It makes it hard hitting attacks at the cost of Multipul effects and cooldowns meaning a much higher investment to reach Viable dps levels , that is the issue we are facing here.

the builds tested in those videos weren’t even optimal in real situations (using 2x spirits ect on the same build ect) so you could say the recored dps is lower than reported too unless every requirement is meet.

1. Sword Co-ed needs a increase and a reduciton in aftercast (bring this weapon away from Needing quickness to cause any higher form of dps)
2. Pets basic pets mostly need some AA damage recovered (years of nurfing and no buffing of core pets has Hurt Ranger vastly in terms of dps and the HoT pets no longer need any Nurfs as those main attacks are hard locked mechanics which can be easly avoided by smart play)
3. Sharpen edges trait needs a bleed duration increase to improve the overall stacks of bleed maintaince / dps (clearly in the video for druids and ranger the ranger needs near 100% AA rotational upkeep to sustain any decent dps on condi builds , any time the ranger is not AA’ing or able to use a rotation in its most effiecent situations drops off nearly 50% of the bleed stacks massively reducing dps)
4. bring back or change Instinctive reactions to gain power from Vitality 10% again , still using the healing power convert from a 0 stat is a meaning less effort and a wasted trait slot only for quickness. (this trait needs a rework) using the old spirit to strenght was a good restrictive damage boost which every build could Benifit from or be built into for a bigger boost much like all the other types of traits which convert core toughness into condi damage ect which have a core Value rather than 0.

its mostly Minor changes that will bring rangers back up in dps terms as things on ranger/druids the damage scale much more greatly as the class uses multipul sources of damage to deal its most effective dps.

UnitedChaos.8364:

Substance E.4852:

UnitedChaos.8364:

No.
Nerf the classes that can tank a team of 4 on a node on pvp. (Cough) Ele and engineer. (Cough). Eles are immune to crits, infi condi cleanse, healing more powerful than the druids aka “the first dedicated healer” and nearly 1/2 uptime of projectile denial. Even the new dps testing arena shows that a garbage ele can deal 5x more damage than any tanger/druid build.

Druids are in a good place. Bring the classes that are completely and utterly overpowered back in line.

Most optimal dps’s put druid at around 15k solo damage. Unless auramancers are pulling 75k+ this isn’t true though I agree on the disgusting amount of sustain they get as a class that seems like it’s supposed to be a fragile spell caster.

The point where a full Minstrel’s Elementalist is harder to kill than a full Nomads Guardian is when things have gone off the rails…

Here’s a players dps results.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4ft01q/qt_dps_benchmarkstests_for_all_classes/
Elementalist topped the charts at 2-3x ranger/druids dps. But I’ll be honest when this isn’t a very accurate depiction of dps because mesmers have high burst damage, but with terrible sustain.

Ya unfortunately as long as it’s suicide to run full zerk scholars staff ele in pvp, it will never receive the nerf it needs and staff will continue to be a grossly overpowered pve weapon despite being a ranged one as well.

I know! We cold change the sword animation and add a delayed pre and after cast! People will be so happy the leap is gone they wont notice the nerf! Brillliant!

…what? They already did that!?

So, any more bright ideas?

I remember someone mentioning about 1-1.5 years ago that the Ranger community was the only class community that would regularly get members posting in their forum motivated to nerf their own class.

Odyssey.6523:

I remember someone mentioning about 1-1.5 years ago that the Ranger community was the only class community that would regularly get members posting in their forum motivated to nerf their own class.

that is part true , we saw our own strenghts and weaknesses .

not so egotistical compaired to other types of players aka Bandwagoners ect.

most of the Core ranger community are highly skilled only kept out of the higher tiers by Consistant nurfs and weapon bugs.

one person vicky in a different thread her opinion was because druid made it into 8 Torni teams by 8 different players concluded it was op , but that is only due to the new Class stacking rules for Esl tornaments making space for druids and maybe other proffessions.

now druids condi clear has been nurfed poor eles will be forced into a condi clear support role and druids maybe replaced as they now nether do condi clears well or decent reliable burst damage for that support role , using a different class for a damage role will clearly be the better choice Daredevills we’ll see a increase of those this season.

as you could say Pulling the wool over thier eyes , or the minds are in a haze not seeing the bigger picture which leads to un-warrented nurfs.

that brings us back to our community , We know when a thing is Overpowered we’ve been through years of oppression and honing skills to deal with the lack of ranger balance/fixes which only makes us stronger so when we do become balanced its only going to be Natural to see a rise in ranger/druid players compaired to before when teams/groups had no rangers at all in the els or anywhere for that matter.

Vicky.4563:

But you realize since druid is becoming meta, it’s going to be a prime target for the next round of nerf batting right? I’d rather try to find something marginal we can nerf than wait for Anet to come up with one.

Well, you weren’t wrong…but it sure doesn’t feel good that you were right.