Guild Wars 2

So in my infinite wisdom (or masochism), over the course of the last month while playing ranger, I’ve been constantly build testing and theorycrafting versus the PvP meta against the upper echelon of NA PvP players and similarly matched MMR players.

I’ve been doing so in order to try to come up with an optimized PvP build that will hopefully do a lot of ranger players some good, and before I wasn’t really at a point where I knew what would work well or what direction to push a build towards, but now I think I am ready to bring the theorycrafting to the community.

Initial thoughts going in:

• Nothing beats VoIP. Nothing. You can be the best player in the game at any class, but if you are up against 3-5 coordinated, competent individuals, you are basically screwed if you don’t have an equally effective team on your side. I make this note because nobody should expect to be able to queue and be a solo force capable of taking down a coordinated team with any build.

Specific Matchup thoughts:

• Hoelbrak runes are meta and should be considered at all times when thinking of running a condition build, due to the 20% condition reduction.

• Out of all of the meta builds, the easiest to take down assuming competence ranges from easiest to hardest: Thief, Engineer, Guardian, Warrior, Elementalist. Always know your target priority.

• Most of the listed builds on popular sites (Metabattle) are Rock/Paper/Scissor balanced by the meta. In reference to the last bullet point, conditions are weaker going up the list, and power builds are most susceptible to the tools used on the left of the list. Being balanced in such a way is what pushed ranger out of a top tier meta position, because the current meta professions and builds can work against ANY opponent when skill is a factor, but with rangers in equal skill matchups, hardcounters exist.

• Boons, Line of Sight, and general know how skill ceiling power builds out way too low before they reach the highest skill tier of player. Yes, you might catch a player every once in a while, but ultimately, the build is a one trick pony, easily countered by thief/guardian and manageable to counter for a knowledgeable engineer, and also can’t do the damage to make it worthwhile against a decent elementalist. This statement is less true the farther down the skill tier of players you move, which is why you only see bad players complaining about power ranger builds.

• What do necro/ranger/mesmer all have in common (specifically in terms of power ranger)? Being thief food, Guardian fodder, and an engineers play thing (this is a reference to how much CC engis put out), while having poor match ups against elementalists (all three do decently against warriors, but warriors aren’t bunkers or damage as shoutbows, they are support). Mesmer is the most capable simply due to sheer amount of defensive utility, but has to blow every utility just to juke a thief long enough to live and run away, and the other classes mentioned do even less well.

What does all of this have to do with ranger builds?
Well, it is the basis of thought behind what has led me to the builds I will be posting (note that they won’t be some revolutionary, new invention, or even uncommon, they are just the ones I’ve found to be most optimal).

I have tried traps (lol ANet, these are SO bad. Zero competition for winning a meta slot), spirits (don’t you wish turret engis turrets died this fast?), and even more offbeat ideas like Predator’s Onslaught soft CC lockdown (too much removal and reduction) and even stun locks (same idea, but damage chain is too long, not enough damage, and much too telegraphed to work after a certain skill tier), along with every other little thing you can think of in between.

What I have ended up with at the end of the day with having the MOST positive matchups is 2 different versions of a build, still in testing, but performing much higher than any other build I’ve run against the meta.

First (check 3rd post down from top for edits):
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQNAV3YjEq0xaLL+rQ1aADhqdL8ulArAwdR8CXdBbqA-TJhHwADeCAAuIAg2fwYZAA

This is pretty much a direct copy/paste from Metabattle, however unlike metabattle, I’m not going to list a ton of variants and give virtually zero explanations about choices and effectiveness. This build is effective because:

• Bleed uptime and application. The only opponent you will struggle against is elementalist, but even then, you are winning the fight, it’s just a long fight. Everything else going down the previous list melts a little faster, with thief having to to reset entirely or die instantly.
• Survivability. The build sits arguably even above shoutbow in terms of survival capabilities. The lack of leaps hurts however, but you do have near perma-swiftness in combat and with practice between that, your pet, and your soft cc weapon skills, you can kite for days when needed.
• Leeching Sigils. I had originally been trying the build with focusing more towards power and air/fire on shortbow, but without Pack runes and only celestial, you just don’t proc crit procs often enough to make sigil dedications for it when you already have Sharpened Edges with no ICD making life a tad easier, and Leeching does the same damage in the same time frame factoring in lack of being able to proc air/fire on cooldown.
  How to use: You are the damage. Don’t just plink away at the tankiest person on the other team like you are doing something. Learn you target priority, get your target, melt your target. A full rotation at the right time (aka harass until they blow a cleanse utility and then burst conditions) can outright kill thieves/engis/guardians, or make them have to back off the fight, allowing your higher damage players on your team a chance to do better damage. Camp shortbow in teamfights, don’t just barrel in and try a rotation. You have to play opportunistically and catch somebody out of cooldowns/position to make the most of the build. The build is excellent at dueling/small scale engagements. If you can, roam around with your engineer most optimally. You can peel for them if needed and sit on a point while they harass/lockdown, and together against most other enemies, a focused target is a dead target. Entangle is amazing, especially against engineers. If they have blown both gear shield and their heal, they are essentially dead, especially with no elixir.

With all of that, is there another build?
Yes, and it’s barely different at all (check 3rd post down from top for edits): http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQNAV3YjEq0xaLL+rQ1aADhqdL8ulArAwdR8CXdBbqA-TJhHwADeCAl3fAwFBwYZAA

I am not entirely certain this is a better tradeoff. The main thing that hurts is the loss of bleed duration, however, this build is definitely better at surviving, and the leeching procs hit for decent enough damage. It has real potential, and would probably work better against heavy damage compositions (versus heavy condition counter compositions. So basically, more opposing zerker means stronger, more opposing celestial means weaker).

Notes

• Signet of Stone can always be traded in for Signet of Renewal. This is not a preference choice, this is a counter composition choice. More zerkers, use SoS, more condis, use SoR.
• I used to hate Muddy Terrain, but now I manage it. It does 4 important things, provides CC for dealing damage and kiting, makes people dodge, makes people waste skills trying to stop its activation, baiting those skills out so that later you can get a safe heal off, and finally, removes conditions on a low cooldown and gives fury for more DPS.
• While it isn’t really something you can totally control, the idea behind some of the survival is to let Empathic Bond be the last line of condition defense. It’s inevitable that the pet will get too many conditions and need to swap, but the majority of the time, it should only be the conditions you failed to dodge, or in engis case where autoattacks proc every condition in the game on you, the conditions you couldn’t cleanse with survival skills.
• Keen Edge and Sharpening Stones are not optimal choices. I’ve tried them, I’ve enjoyed them, and I’ve even laughed at how incredible a perfect bleed spike can be. But both the trait and utility are investments that get worse as the skill tier gets higher, and have too long of a cooldown to contribute enough to survival at higher levels of play.

Now that all of that is said and done.
By all means, it isn’t my intent to denounce other playstyles or discredit other ideas. I’m sharing this for 2 reasons. One is that it is my experience that these builds are the most optimal that can be played against the meta right now and I want other people to be able to share in that success, have fun, and not get frustrated with the game and this terrible celestial meta. Two is that I’m only one person and sharing all of this allows other people to collaborate and further optimize the build in ways that I as an individual haven’t thought of.

tl;dr:
There is none. I am known to be longwinded on these forums, however it is an information sharing process and it is something that for this topic, I didn’t want to do the disservice to others by trying to pick it apart and streamline it.

Questions, comments?

Edit:
Missed a section:
Where do I think ranger fits on the meta team?
At this point, while it can’t replace the support it provides, ranger would be best fit either replacing Shoutbow warriors who are already not even required to have an effective team since pure condition builds aren’t really a thing right now and all of the meta builds have enough self sustain to deal with the conditions put out from each other.
You lose team support, you gain much more harass and consistent damage.

Otherwise, I’d say probably as the guardian (or mesmer, since in ESLs, mesmers and guardians seem to be the interchangeable “second damage” slot). You lose direct burst, but still pick up a build that can focus and harass targets and condi-burst, and can additionally be very sustainable and require virtually no peeling.

Does it outright replace anything? No, but it competes and competes well with the current meta builds.

Additional section 2:
Is shortbow necessary?
Absolutely. Otherwise thieves and engis will just kite and out range you, and you also have a harder time counter harassing them in teamfights without shortbow. Not to mention you get forced into a warriors firefield without shortbow which means you are providing them cleansing when you could otherwise kill them faster.
Is Axe necessary?
I would say this is a strong yes. True, losing sword does hurt some personal utility and escaping tools. But honestly, sacrificing Axe sacrices almost your entire burst, and the build hinges on that burst to beat a lot of the meta builds by doing maximum damage in between those classes cooldowns. Sword is a great utility weapon, but just doesn’t bring the damage the build needs to compete.

Edit 2:
After some discussion and testing:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQNAV3YjEq0xaLL+rQ1aADhqdL8uVNrAwdR8CXdBbqA-TJhHwADeCAAuIAg2fwYZAA

• Hydromancy is an option that works very well over leeching. It loses a bit of tankiness but gains the ability for more guaranteed SplitBlades and easier kiting of melee opponents. I have had success with both versions, so this comes to preference (one of each works as well if you opt to go that route).

This next one is still a work in progress, but so far I am having success with it: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQNAT3YjEq0xaLL+rQ1aADhqdL8uVNrAwdR8CXdBbqA-TZRHwADOCABuIAAeAAk2f4YZAA

• I am uncertain about the runes and sigils on this one still. Pack runes might be the better alternative and I swap between them frequently, and with pack runes I always at least try Air sigil, but I’m not sure of the efficacy of it. Hoelbrak on top of the 20% less conditions can basically maintain 6 might stacks in combat though, which is another 180 power and condition damage, which both benefit output (not to mention might you get from teammates). Hard to tell at this point, needs more testing.

I do not really have questions, but I do have a comment.

I agree with every single statement you made.
And I also made the same thinking progress as you did.

And I ended up playing somehow similar build to what you play. Not through traits or weapons, but through game goals.

I’m glad to see anyone else beside me realizing that Power is not the meta. Even though I based my build more around Team Value, with a rune that helps me dominate 1v1’s.
The build is absurdly irregular, but I do believe you might try it out eventually. It offers a lot of potential and is one of the best at mind games of various kinds.
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQNAV3YjEq0xaLL+rQ1aADhqdL8ulArAwdR8CXdBbqA-TJhHwADeCAAuIAg2fwYZAA

This build is able to save your teammates, unlike any other build, since this build is suitable for melee point combat (has fear, Point Blank and Mud Terrain to keep enemies from stomping). Offers Healing Spring for the team, has decent amount of cleanse, is suitable for decapping a point (point blank + Mud Terrain every 20 seconds), has a serious burst if you find a window to apply Sharpening stone + Marsh Drake poison + Burning, all while RaO is on – that’s almost instant 15 might with considerable condi pressure and poison uptime.

All in all, this is not really the deadliest build out there, but definitely the most valuable and most potent I’ve found, so far.

Tragic Positive.9356:

I do not really have questions, but I do have a comment.

I agree with every single statement you made.
And I also made the same thinking progress as you did.

And I ended up playing somehow similar build to what you play. Not through traits or weapons, but through game goals.

I’m glad to see anyone else beside me realizing that Power is not the meta. Even though I based my build more around Team Value, with a rune that helps me dominate 1v1’s.
The build is absurdly irregular, but I do believe you might try it out eventually. It offers a lot of potential and is one of the best at mind games of various kinds.
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQNAV3YjEq0xaLL+rQ1aADhqdL8ulArAwdR8CXdBbqA-TJhHwADeCAAuIAg2fwYZAA

This build is able to save your teammates, unlike any other build, since this build is suitable for melee point combat (has fear, Point Blank and Mud Terrain to keep enemies from stomping). Offers Healing Spring for the team, has decent amount of cleanse, is suitable for decapping a point (point blank + Mud Terrain every 20 seconds), has a serious burst if you find a window to apply Sharpening stone + Marsh Drake poison + Burning, all while RaO is on – that’s almost instant 15 might with considerable condi pressure and poison uptime.

All in all, this is not really the deadliest build out there, but definitely the most valuable and most potent I’ve found, so far.

I think you may have linked the wrong build hahaha. It happens

Can’t wait to see it!

One thing I have discovered in sPvP that helps tremendously is running duel melee for the sake of point capping/decapping. Essentially, I have been running a Cav/Survival/Emp Bond build utilizing Traveler Runes with Greatsword, Sword and Lightning Reflexes. The amount of distance I can traverse in a mere few seconds is incredible.

If the other team doesn’t have a Thief running Shortbow, they struggle trying to re-cap there points and end up losing.

And if they do have a Thief, I can always either beat him to the node or tie him. It is impossible for him to beat me running Cav/Intel Sigils, so he has to call a teammate which makes it 3v4 on the other points.

Where is mesmer on the priority? I usually get them down first.

StickerHappy.8052:

Where is mesmer on the priority? I usually get them down first.

Interchangeable with thieves and power rangers in my opinion.

Jcbroe pretty much hit the nail on the head with all of this.

My only issue with that condi build is that since the change to longbow there are a lot more people bringing defense against ranged attacks. Because of this I have a hard time giving up sword/torch. I know axe/dagger+entangle gives a nice bleed burst but the torch’s fire field is too good against all of the players that see your team has a ranger, assume you are going to be power, and add a crap ton of reflects and blocks to their builds.

StickerHappy.8052:

Where is mesmer on the priority? I usually get them down first.

Mesmer isn’t meta and I have only encountered about 3 mesmers in a month of queuing (always on mesmer day too, go figure lol) so I didn’t mention them, necros, or other rangers on the priority target list, however I can see they are still prevalent in the ESL tournaments, so I will edit that part.

However, the full priority would probably be power Ranger/Ele, Power Mesmer, Thief (thief actually ranks here and not equally because of sheer amount of escapes, and some people will then leave the fight to tunnel vision the thief who is no longer contributing to the fight anyhow, which hurts your team more than just keeping field awareness for after the thief resets), Necro, Celestial/Condi Engineer, Power Guardian, Warrior, Condi/Celestial Ranger, Condi Mesmer, Bunker Guardian/cele/bunker ele, and then *turret engineer with: *do not ever prioritize this target, and avoid at all costs if possible, instruct your team to to the same, unless your team is going to go for a full on, coordinated attack against this target. Otherwise, the best counterplay is to out rotate the turret engi.

You can see though that most of that information is nearly non-applicable in most games, or (like with turret engis) should be common PvP knowledge for all classes/builds haha.

ItIsFinished.9462:

One thing I have discovered in sPvP that helps tremendously is running duel melee for the sake of point capping/decapping. Essentially, I have been running a Cav/Survival/Emp Bond build utilizing Traveler Runes with Greatsword, Sword and Lightning Reflexes. The amount of distance I can traverse in a mere few seconds is incredible.

If the other team doesn’t have a Thief running Shortbow, they struggle trying to re-cap there points and end up losing.

And if they do have a Thief, I can always either beat him to the node or tie him. It is impossible for him to beat me running Cav/Intel Sigils, so he has to call a teammate which makes it 3v4 on the other points.

I am still very split on a full melee build personally. It plays very inconsistently for me personally, and part of that could be just because it is the build with my lowest experience level, but I have found that a lot of players that I constantly queue up against (Abjured, APeX) are just really good at avoid the damage skills.

Definitely not dismissing it though, it’s just something I’ll have to pour a ton of time into to see if it works as well as I want it to. My initial thoughts on it is that it matches up more poorly than I would like against cele eles and guardians, but that could also just be my inexperience with the build to make it work for me against these players (who aren’t testing new builds and have all of their matchups and mechanics and how to react with the build they’ve been playing for 12k matches memorized lol).

I definitely don’t duel as much as you though, and I’ve known you long enough to know that when you say something works, it works hahaha.

Jim Hunter.6821:

StickerHappy.8052:

Where is mesmer on the priority? I usually get them down first.

Interchangeable with thieves and power rangers in my opinion.

Jcbroe pretty much hit the nail on the head with all of this.

My only issue with that condi build is that since the change to longbow there are a lot more people bringing defense against ranged attacks. Because of this I have a hard time giving up sword/torch. I know axe/dagger+entangle gives a nice bleed burst but the torch’s fire field is too good against all of the players that see your team has a ranger, assume you are going to be power, and add a crap ton of reflects and blocks to their builds.

Yeah I can definitely see the logic behind that and I will be the first to say that I tried forever to make Axe/Dagger and Sword/Torch as well as Shortbow and Sword/Torch to work. The shortbow version just didn’t have the damage, and the Axe/Dagger version against players like Chaith and Toker just gets kited for days as they sit outside your effective range harassing you.

As far as the reflects go though, it has been rare for me to come up against players who change their build just for reflecting. The most common I’ve seen are Engi-Shield, just just let it expire, Mesmer, so kite and let the pet attack until the reflect wears off, and the hardest to deal with, Guardian reflect wall. This one requires you to honestly retarget someone not taking advantage of it, and/or just get out of every range but your pets attacking range and wait for the wall to go down while your pet pressures.

I think the hardest to deal with is a pure signet mesmer (signets grant distortion, distortion grants reflection) or a reflect warrior warrior, in which case they have specialized their build so much that you can usually just let a different member of your team handle them.

But, it is a good point, and something that I haven’t entirely figured out how to build around without sacrificing too much elsewhere. At this point, I’d say that the reflect counter is still very much a “lesser of all of the evils” sort of mechanic you encounter in pure PvP, as most people know they are much more effective on their base build with no alterations just to semi-negate the efforts of only a single player on the other team.

So if they DO bring reflects just for you, feel honored that it may have just helped your team out just because they are so afraid of you that they felt the need to un-optimize their build lol.

jcbroe.4329:

Can’t wait to see it!

Oh, jesus, yes I made the build on your link and forgot to “link it to build”
… How can I be so bad? Tell me =D

Here it is, sorry for the delay
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQNAT8fjMqUzaHLusw1aABhaVA0uGS2l1d++Df9FHV1D-TZRFwAAuAAJOIAKeCAPLDIf/BA

I’m still not sold on the idea of the Shortbow. If I can’t get into a flanking position, I find that its damage is quite lackluster. This doesn’t bode well in my mind for a 1v1. Losing access to burning is a big hit to dps in my mind as well.

Have you played around with swapping Axe+Dagger/Sword+Torch …. to instead Axe+Torch/Sword+Dagger ? I’ve personally found Axe+Dagger/Sword+Torch to be balanced while Axe+Torch/Sword+Dagger allows you to be more offensive/defensive. Throwing Axes through a Fire Field is also very nice … as is chaining pet CC and entangle with Bonfire.

Have you played around with replacing the Krytan Drakehound with a Jungle Spider? The current meta is quite mobile so a melee pet is often less capable of connecting their attacks than a ranged pet. While immobilize (spider) is often not as good as a knockdown (canine), it isn’t bad. Additionally, if you are using Shortbow and Axe, you can make use of the Spider’s Poison field with your projectiles.

Have you tried a more Beastmastery heavy build? 3s Quickening Zephyr on-demand is very nice.

One thing I didn’t see from your posts is Ranger’s inability to deal with Boons. I think that is one of the issues we also deal with. Elementalist is a tough nut to crack when you can’t strip them of their Protection+Regen. Have you played around with Sigils for removing boons?

Put sigil of hydromancy in there. Never leave home without it – it’s a game changing sigil imho.

@Sebrent;

For the burning, I’ve tried Spirits, Traps, and Torch, and intermixing the three options. Spirits lacked survival and duration (those hoelbrak runes again). Traps had a similar problem, although AoE and unblockable, and required even more investment for little return. Torch is probably the safest and most reliable option, and actually could be the highest damage option (Sb Axe/Torch), but I’ve personally leaned on the dagger crutch for so long that it gives me the impression that I lose much more survival than I actually do. Other than that, I find reapplication to be a problem, as most builds have a 2-3 condition minimum cleanse every 10-20 seconds. The bleeds and poisons work well enough not because of potency, but because of reapplication, but I just couldn’t find a way to push the burning to make it as effective.

I tried both variants of Axe/x, and they both work, it is more of just that they match up poorly against smart opponents on certain classes, and like I had mentioned, particularly with thieves and engineers, they can literally kite you forever and whittle you down and not being able to “poke” them at those ranges to even pressure them is a real problem.

Which is actually the only reason the shortbow is on the build. I tried every conceivable way I could think of to make the shortbow not feel necessary, but every time the lack of ranged pressure allowed an opening that could really be exploited and made the matchup really lopsided. Also, the shortbow does have good teamfight potential. It has decent enough single target harass and an interrupt for heals/stomps, which is more than even other classes weapon sets get.

I think spiders are an acceptable alternative, but my personal preference makes me choose canines over them every time simply due to the spiders melting a little faster, which will happen even if they are ranged, their poison attack being super unreliable and a waste of precious time they could be DPS’ing (if you could control this ability and target it on downed bodies and teamfights, I would instantly swap to spiders as my go to), and the fact I can’t dictate exactly where they set up shop to do damage. I want to be able to RTS style control (or heroes for GW1) their position so I can actually continuously move them into range.
In short, the micromanagement capabilities just aren’t there for me to fully enjoy spiders, where as the canines are very predictable, have reliable attacks, and can be easily micromanaged by simply cancelling attacks you don’t want them to use at the time (I could do this with spiders, but the monotony of every few seconds having to go “don’t waste that poison there” is obnoxious to me).

The next point is simple, I just don’t think BM builds are worth the investment anymore. It isn’t that they don’t work, I’m sure I could “make” it work, but it is a lot of investment either just to get a few effects on pet swap, and/or put into a pet I can’t micro that is now one of my full investment sources. If the pet swap traits were in any other traitline, I would take them. I mean, even mesmers and thieves deal with their mechanic investment lines not so helpful passive increases, but unlike our mechanic line, their mechanic actually gets made incredibly useful, even OP as some people claim steal is.

The inability to deal with boons led to me running a condition heavy build, because Poison hurts regen, conditions aren’t effected by protections, and condition ticks don’t trigger retaliation. The boon sigil procs don’t remove the right boons, don’t remove enough boons, and don’t trigger often enough. Not to mention they can’t be predicted or capitalized on unless your awareness that one of them proc’d is so incredibly high that you would have to be tunnel visioned onto the enemies status bar and nothing else.

I think I answered everything? Now, again as I mentioned in the OP(s), this is just my take and my opinions, and while I am explaining my thought process, it is only because I am trying to draw out the optimal decisions I can make both for build choice and this build. Speaking of which, I see Tragic’s build and I think it has a lot of potential and addressed some concerns you were having!

Tragic Positive.9356:

jcbroe.4329:

Can’t wait to see it!

Oh, jesus, yes I made the build on your link and forgot to “link it to build”
… How can I be so bad? Tell me =D

Here it is, sorry for the delay
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQNAT8fjMqUzaHLusw1aABhaVA0uGS2l1d++Df9FHV1D-TZRFwAAuAAJOIAKeCAPLDIf/BA

No you’re fine! This has me thinking of some combinations I didn’t try, I’m going to queue with them for awhile using this as a basis and see if it makes a difference. My initial thought is that I can turn the longbow into the shortbow’s functional role from the build in the OP as a “harrass at range” tool and then optimize the second swap set.

I still also have to mess around with Arrow Slanger’s build some more.

OGDeadHead.8326:

Put sigil of hydromancy in there. Never leave home without it – it’s a game changing sigil imho.

On which weapon set? My first thought is on the Axe set, but is it worth the loss of Leeching (which is about a 1k damage/heal)?
I personally only tend to run hydromancy on the Greatsword, but I can see the value in running it on Axe for guaranteed splitblades, I’m just not sure that’s how you meant the suggestion.

Thanks for the replies. More questions though :-p

Shortbow and Axe are both 900 range. Is it just that you find the Shortbow AA is providing more pressure than the Axe’s slower auto?

Why are we caring as much about kiting in sPvP when it is more about fighting on point?

Do you not find the beefier pet beneficial? I have the math posted from way back when

• https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Beastmastery-Math/first#post1974579

Each point in Beastmastery gives your pet:

• +50 Power = +2.35% damage
• +50 Precision = +2.38% crit chance
• +50 Vitality = +500 health
• +50 Toughness = +2.35% damage mitigation

I’ve always enjoyed the +healing as well ;-) Minor point, the minor grandmaster trait converts some of that healing to more power.

If we were allowed Apothecary stats in sPvP, would you possibly rethink Beastmastery given that it enables a solid amount of additional healing for a condition build?

If you’re focusing more on condition damage than power because of the inability to strip protection, then why use celestial instead of Rabid?

Why not Poison Mastery or Bark Skin? I’m not a fan of an invisible counter that strips conditions from me and puts them on my pet … waiting up to 9 seconds hurts.

Why Sharpened Edges ?
You have a 30% crit chance. We can round that up to 1/3 of your hits crit.
66% (2/3) of those crits bleed.
That means 2/9 of your attacks are going to actually cause a bleed.
Even with the shortbow, that’s 2 bleeds in 4.5 seconds … and not very long ones even with Krait runes.

I do find it is better than Keen Edge though which, at best, gives you 5 bleeds every kitten which averages to 1 bleed every 9 seconds and has issues if you take the utility skill as well.

Have you played around with Intimidation Training (pet F2 cripple) and Malicious Training (50% pet condition duration) with Eagle/Hawk pets? It’s not nearly as good in sPvP’s enclosed spaces as the vast open fields of WvW, but … you can upkeep perma-cripple if they don’t cleanse … if they do cleanse you can either (1) swap and do it immediately again with the other pet or (2) Do it again in 6s (0.5s cast).

Cripple is aggravating. Constant cripple can be rage inducing. It can also help shield other conditions. On top of that’s 2 stacks of a 34.75s duration bleed every 6 seconds whose application hurts.

Sadly, you do give up some clutch CC, but I’ve been milling around with my thoughts about how people have a decent number of condition cleanse and stunbreaks … so if I ignore one of those and overload the other I might be more successful than if I run a balanced amount of both.

Birds also seem to stick to targets much better and provide 1,200 range Swiftness to allies. Since Axe & 3+ pts in Nature Magic can result in a pet high on Might, I imagine your pet sticking to the target better could yield some better results.

The birds’ abilities are also much less telegraphed than the canines’.

jcbroe.4329:

On which weapon set? My first thought is on the Axe set, but is it worth the loss of Leeching (which is about a 1k damage/heal)?
I personally only tend to run hydromancy on the Greatsword, but I can see the value in running it on Axe for guaranteed splitblades, I’m just not sure that’s how you meant the suggestion.

Both. It messes up most attackers when they get close to you, it’s aoe chill that can crit on weapon swap, what’s not to like?

Perfect for getting out of trouble while also damaging opponents.

Sebrent.3625:

Thanks for the replies. More questions though :-p

Shortbow and Axe are both 900 range. Is it just that you find the Shortbow AA is providing more pressure than the Axe’s slower auto?

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Why are we caring as much about kiting in sPvP when it is more about fighting on point?

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Do you not find the beefier pet beneficial? I have the math posted from way back when

• https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Beastmastery-Math/first#post1974579

Each point in Beastmastery gives your pet:

• +50 Power = +2.35% damage
• +50 Precision = +2.38% crit chance
• +50 Vitality = +500 health
• +50 Toughness = +2.35% damage mitigation

I’ve always enjoyed the +healing as well ;-) Minor point, the minor grandmaster trait converts some of that healing to more power.

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If we were allowed Apothecary stats in sPvP, would you possibly rethink Beastmastery given that it enables a solid amount of additional healing for a condition build?

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If you’re focusing more on condition damage than power because of the inability to strip protection, then why use celestial instead of Rabid?

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Why not Poison Mastery or Bark Skin? I’m not a fan of an invisible counter that strips conditions from me and puts them on my pet … waiting up to 9 seconds hurts.

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Why Sharpened Edges ?
You have a 30% crit chance. We can round that up to 1/3 of your hits crit.
66% (2/3) of those crits bleed.
That means 2/9 of your attacks are going to actually cause a bleed.
Even with the shortbow, that’s 2 bleeds in 4.5 seconds … and not very long ones even with Krait runes.

I do find it is better than Keen Edge though which, at best, gives you 5 bleeds every kitten which averages to 1 bleed every 9 seconds and has issues if you take the utility skill as well.

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Have you played around with Intimidation Training (pet F2 cripple) and Malicious Training (50% pet condition duration) with Eagle/Hawk pets? It’s not nearly as good in sPvP’s enclosed spaces as the vast open fields of WvW, but … you can upkeep perma-cripple if they don’t cleanse … if they do cleanse you can either (1) swap and do it immediately again with the other pet or (2) Do it again in 6s (0.5s cast).

Cripple is aggravating. Constant cripple can be rage inducing. It can also help shield other conditions. On top of that’s 2 stacks of a 34.75s duration bleed every 6 seconds whose application hurts.

Sadly, you do give up some clutch CC, but I’ve been milling around with my thoughts about how people have a decent number of condition cleanse and stunbreaks … so if I ignore one of those and overload the other I might be more successful than if I run a balanced amount of both.

Birds also seem to stick to targets much better and provide 1,200 range Swiftness to allies. Since Axe & 3+ pts in Nature Magic can result in a pet high on Might, I imagine your pet sticking to the target better could yield some better results.

The birds’ abilities are also much less telegraphed than the canines’.

I’ve pretty much given up on beastmaster builds in anything but WvW dueling. The pathing problems just make pets too unreliable. I swear any time I try to run a beastmaster build I get nothing but battle of kyhlo over and over again.

jcbroe.4329:

ItIsFinished.9462:

One thing I have discovered in sPvP that helps tremendously is running duel melee for the sake of point capping/decapping. Essentially, I have been running a Cav/Survival/Emp Bond build utilizing Traveler Runes with Greatsword, Sword and Lightning Reflexes. The amount of distance I can traverse in a mere few seconds is incredible.

If the other team doesn’t have a Thief running Shortbow, they struggle trying to re-cap there points and end up losing.

And if they do have a Thief, I can always either beat him to the node or tie him. It is impossible for him to beat me running Cav/Intel Sigils, so he has to call a teammate which makes it 3v4 on the other points.

I am still very split on a full melee build personally. It plays very inconsistently for me personally, and part of that could be just because it is the build with my lowest experience level, but I have found that a lot of players that I constantly queue up against (Abjured, APeX) are just really good at avoid the damage skills.

Definitely not dismissing it though, it’s just something I’ll have to pour a ton of time into to see if it works as well as I want it to. My initial thoughts on it is that it matches up more poorly than I would like against cele eles and guardians, but that could also just be my inexperience with the build to make it work for me against these players (who aren’t testing new builds and have all of their matchups and mechanics and how to react with the build they’ve been playing for 12k matches memorized lol).

I definitely don’t duel as much as you though, and I’ve known you long enough to know that when you say something works, it works hahaha.

I’ll mail you a link to my build tonight. Try it for a few matches and let me know what you think. I think you’ll enjoy the ability to ninja points so quickly.

@Sebrent;

Hahaha of course! That’s what this thread/the forum are (should be) for!

Yes to the shortbow auto. The axe loses virtually all of it’s pressuring ability outside of like 600 range. I just watch people strafe it, and even when it does hit, it doesn’t carry any “oomph.”

Kiting is important because even though the game is about holding capture points, it’s still a bad idea to just sit on the point and eat attacks to hold the point. A great example of this is watching Chaith (Five Gauge) when he gets matched up against newer players that run to the point instead of pressuring him. What he does is just run off point, create distance, and nuke them down with grenades and everything else in an engineers kitten nal while the try desperately to decap and cap the point, and then he just kills them and takes the point back. There actually aren’t many builds being run in the meta that can just sit on point, the only two being cele ele and (not a higher tier build but still an example) turret engis, who both pump out a ton off boons and AoE control/damage, while having some of the highest healing per minute and middle tier cleansing in the game.
So, kiting is invaluable because it keeps the damage away from you unless you are getting ranged, in which case you can Line of Sight kite to force positioning and avoid damage.

I don’t find the beefier pet at all useful without the ability to micromanage the pet. It is 100% purely a decision based on how much control I have over the mechanic. A beefier pet is still a pet whose attack pattern I have to force control over, that stands in damage, and that pathes so poorly hopping up and down on ledges can cause the pet to lose it’s kitten. Control over the fight is the number 1 thing I try to have, and I just find the investment not worth how reliable pets can be.

I haven’t run apothecary in forever, I switched to Dire on my condition build in WvW. Still, I’d probably go Spirits over Pet in every circumstance (Spirits over traps as well).

The difference in Rabid and Celestial is really just the attacking from both fronts philosophy. Particularly, I have found that the increase in power helps with dealing with eles who just expect to have to only have to manage cleanse against pure condi, and to some extend against Engis as well, who are actually very squishy in celestial (only 2.3k armor and 21k health). Before the celestial buff, I would argue for Carrion, and if I had my choice, I would have Sinister in PvP, as I would think that it would be the most beneficial stat selection most ranger builds could possibly run for dealing damage (I’m working on my WvW set).

Empathic Bond is there because it is the best removal we have. I hate that in punishes the pet too (my suggestion was to turn it into a 3 condition removal, not transfer, on pet swap), but it is amazing at keeping conditions off of you. Generally speaking, you have Survival Skills for all of the “I need this off of me now” conditions, and EB is the safety net for when those skills are on cooldown. It makes matchups against engineers a cakewalk. You can even eat a full Slick Shoes damage rotation and recover from it like it was nothing because all of the conditions vanish and Troll Unguent heals you back to full like nothing happened, meanwhile the engi has everything but defensive utilities on cooldown.

Sharpened Edges…. yeah, it’s really just to boost up the autoattack a little bit more, and that’s about it other than when it procs for Split Blade, it procs for splitblade. I average 8-9 instant bleed stacks with it Splitblades, and that’s without landing the Geomancy proc (11 is my average initial bleed spike from just weapon swap → splitblades). Also, the swiftness on weapon swap is nice, and plays off of the 5 point NM minor for 5% more damage well.

As far as the pet and Malicious Training, I have tried it and loved it for 1v1s/dueling. I ran my old chill build until it was nerfed by ANet in a similarly theme fashion, and could just dominate fights without certain builds ever even getting to hit me. That being said, it isn’t even a micromanagement issue with this one; pets and AI are melting in PvP right now, and have been ever since celestial was buffed. AoE is just murdering them, and as much as I would love to use it or for my chill build to be restored to its glory days, something needs to be done about how they instant die while warriors/engis/eles faceroll all of their skills, completely unaware that our pet was even there (seriously, ranger pet survival and turret engi turret survival need to switch places. One is a forced mechanic we have to make the best of, and the other is toxic and needs to be Smiter’s Boon’d). Which is really the reason why I choose canines over birds, the survival factor.

OGDeadHead.8326:

jcbroe.4329:

On which weapon set? My first thought is on the Axe set, but is it worth the loss of Leeching (which is about a 1k damage/heal)?
I personally only tend to run hydromancy on the Greatsword, but I can see the value in running it on Axe for guaranteed splitblades, I’m just not sure that’s how you meant the suggestion.

Both. It messes up most attackers when they get close to you, it’s aoe chill that can crit on weapon swap, what’s not to like?

Perfect for getting out of trouble while also damaging opponents.

I’m finding that I like the chill and I like the damage, but the damage scales with armor (which means it’s affected by protection) and of course the upside to Leeching other than it’s armor ignoring is that it also heals.

Still, hydromancy has very good potential on at least the Axe set. I found that it made the Splitblade spike on moving targets much easier to land. I’m going to play around with it more though before I decide which way I like better. They both have a strong argument and different pros/cons.

Agree with everything, with 2 small exceptions. I use s/t over SB. I don’t really care if thieves run away. I don’t really expect to kill them, I get the point, and rangers hard counter thieves if they’re silly enough to stay. In every other case, S/T is stronger IMO. The movement on sword is too important to give up, and burn the whole point and everything on it!

Second thing, I prefer poison master. Condis are not prevalent, but condi removal is, and poison is the strongest condi. Get as much of it out there as possible.

Other than that, we have the same build. Edit: Oh, I take offhand training over the regen, obviously since I’m using torch.

Fluffball.8307:

Agree with everything, with 2 small exceptions. I use s/t over SB. I don’t really care if thieves run away. I don’t really expect to kill them, I get the point, and rangers hard counter thieves if they’re silly enough to stay. In every other case, S/T is stronger IMO. The movement on sword is too important to give up, and burn the whole point and everything on it!

Second thing, I prefer poison master. Condis are not prevalent, but condi removal is, and poison is the strongest condi. Get as much of it out there as possible.

Other than that, we have the same build.

And I completely agree with the sentiment in 99% of the scenarios that it is a conservative choice except for when I queue up against specific people, over and over again.

I’m not talking about running away by the way, I’m talking about thieves/engineers camping their shortbow/rifles respectively and sitting at about 900-1100 range 1k+ autoattacking your health and there is hardly anything you can do (the best option is to attempt a sword leap, but even then, you give up your positioning which is usually what they are trying to make you do, kite for positioning and to whittle away health) other than get kited to death. Mesmers do this as well if they are intelligent (but they aren’t really meta so I didn’t mention them).

I mean, yes, we are talking a small portion of the player base that has actually “mastered” their class to the degree that they can (fighting game terminology incoming) “footsie” you and not get caught are a select handful or so, but my playtime just so happens to coincide with the ones that can, and when they are online I queue with/against them constantly and they make me feel powerless when they are in an area (usually takes a map such as khylo side points to do this) that they can consistently and constantly do this.

But, again, I have no doubt other people can make it work. It’s something that I’m definitely not sold on because the Axe and Sword combo is my favorite weapon combination in the game, so if I end up getting it to work in the way I want it to, I’ll gladly say goodbye to the shortbow hahaha.

Also, if you can get just Survival of the Fittest to work for you, then I am jealous. I have tried over and over and it just isn’t happening for me. I’d rather be near condition-less than the other alternatives, but conditions are also my weakness as a player (I hate conditions in this game with a passion and wish they were still they were in GW1, attached to certain skills, only variable in duration, and set in the amount of damage they do, with no condition damage as a stat whatsoever. I’d also see precision and toughness removed entirely, but that’s a whole different discussion about game design lol).

I’ll be the first to admit I’ve chosen more “carry” options on my build though haha.

jcbroe.4329:

Also, if you can get just Survival of the Fittest to work for you, then I am jealous.
I’ll be the first to admit I’ve chosen more “carry” options on my build though haha.

I usually try to clean up my point and go +1 something as soon as possible, even if I’m not the best choice to do so. I don’t trust people to leave the point we’ve got under control… like at all haha. I’m sure that helps a lot with my condi removal (as well as my strong preference for sword.)

The only thing I might change on the builds is empathic bond for probably poison master. The extra damage it brings as well as the amount of poison up time should never be underestimated.

My thoughts:

Given the nature of the ranger there is always 1 spot it wants on a team. Side node 1 v 1er. However, people have since learned to play and know that if they can’t win a 1 v 1 they can usually just out rotate and mobility becomes a factor. Therefore, a ranger must always have either swiftness, sword, or a great sword (preferably swiftness + a blade) in order to just keep up. However, even if a ranger has that added mobility to keep up with a would be decapper you still have to deal with rolling into a team fight (especially as a solo player since decaps alone won’t win games, because you could just go far instead of mid). Once in a team fight a ranger does not have the required skills in order to be IN the fray for an extended period of time. That means, the ranger needs a bow equipped (short or long) in order to adequately participate in a team fight. However, if the ranger is in a team fight in this scenario (I think we can all agree something else would be more “optimal” in the team fight) they don’t have as profound an impact as another profession could.

Still, what ranger should have is the “Jack of All Trades” we should be able to participate in that fight (albeit not the best option necessarily), handle 1 v 1s, and have decent mobility. This is where the issues begin to arise. In order to have that mobility we need a blade and/or swiftness. In order to participate in a team fight we need a bow. In order to effectively win a 1 v 1 vs a d/d ele we probably need an axe. This leaves the ranger wishing for 3 weapon sets.

Since we cannot do this, we must seek for alternatives. Although a strong advocate for power ranger at top tier play, I can’t help but feel ranger doesn’t quite fit into the meta. In some way shape or form, no matter what spec I play or how well I play it the meta builds just don’t compliment my play at the moment. Which is why in order to fit in I would love the perfect storm or mobility, team fight damage, and 1 v 1 potential.

From my experience, I have found a great 1 v 1 build that destroys everything except warriors (settler condi ranger a/d s/t) and I have found a great team fight build that can hold its own in a 1 v 1 against everything except d/d ele (zerker ranger). Sadly, the latter just can’t win every 1 v 1 and hold the node, nor can it handle a 1 v 2 to any extent. Meanwhile the former build still can’t win EVERY 1 v 1 and it cannot rotate.

Because of this, although my time has been limited, I have begun again to theory craft as well. In the end, I have come to the conclusion the same as many of you that the most logical solution is probably celestial and since then I have tried a few half-baked ideas that haven’t really come to fruition in my mind given my lack of play time, inability at the moment to partition my brain to consider every scenario, nor have I actually tested against some of the top meta duelers in the game.

This has left me with a jumple of 3 puzzles yet to be sorted and solved but with a background of reasoning that I think is sound.
Before considering a build I have this advice for everyone:
1. Empathic Bond is terrible.
2. Question yourself: is it better to cover condis or to reapply (personally I think cover is better for 1 v 1, reapplication is better for team fight).
3. The more you crit, the more they get on crit buffs (vigor, regen (which ele gets and consequently condi clearing your bleeds because of it, which is why shortbow is so bad vs them)).

As for damage advice there are many tried and true options:
1. Condi burst: ex: splitblade -> crippling talon -> stalker’s strike -> axe 3 -> wep swap (with like hydromancy and frailty so you don’t pull bleeds to the top of the clear list) -> Throw torch.
2. Old School Kimochi burst: Drake hound immob -> spike trap immob + dmg -> pet swap with quickness (back when it was only the minor trait) and jaguar burst.
3. Classic: Entangle + quickness pet swap with dps pet
4. Hilt bash + a pet burst (drake tail swipe or raven F2).
5. Storm Spirit.
6. Rapid fire.
7. Maul (with MoC or SotH).

Most of the time, those are our ways to REALLY end a fight. But we know we can’t really make use of all of those so we have to pick and choose. Yet, my inability to fully commit one way or the other (and often striving for hybrids) has left me with the following thoughts:

Can Axe be viable in a team fight given ranged if you are focused on might stacking (ie, hoelbrak runes, and maybe 0/4/0/6/4) this way a pet could have 25 might you could be autoing with 25 might for 1kish crits and you still have axe for the 1 v 1?

Can shortbow alone REALLY win a 1 v 1? I don’ think so

Should we be looking to might stacking pets more? (It’s pretty easy with axe…) If so, do we seek to power damage (cats/birds)? I think they are too squishy. What about drakes (river drake is a god amongst little lizards)? Do we seek to JUST use a dps pet for a 1 v 1? Do we use the pet to apply bleeds and use a power build ourselves (25 might = good condi dmg)?

Moreover, given our time having learned how to deal with conditions with often only SoR could we give spirits a shot with nature’s vengeance and not using empathic bond? I would still use entangle, but a pet with 25 might and sun spirit? Storm spirit seems to be bugged and procs twice per active (has it always been that way?).

When I have the time I will of course seek out my own answers but I hope that what I have said can give you guys some thoughts in your seeking for the future. Personally, I find it hard to argue a build is better than zerker ranger if it can’t also win every 1 v 1 match up and because of that I am oft hoping for balance and/or the expansion so that we can get some much needed change.

a couple of questions, which i sure you went through on your testing precess

Why not use hoelbrak runes? (i get the krait rune choice)
Why strength of spirit over Natures Protection or Natures bounty?
Why not use earth or torment sigils? over geo
and i this is properly personal preference question but Jungle spider or Hound?

Eggyokeo.9705:

Why strength of spirit over Natures Protection or Natures bounty?

For SB that’s the only way to deal damage I’m guessing. It’s awfully hard to get behind someone unless it’s like 3v3.

i gathered it is was to do with buffing the SB, but is that better then “Anti Ganking” of Natures protection?

I play at a lower level so lb rangers are every where and Natures protection give you the ability to eat a rapid fire from the guy you didnt spot perched some where.

@Eurantien,

Nice, thanks for the food for thought!

I don’t have nearly half the answers for the things you are thinking of.

I do however want my 2cents on two things you brought up.

First, I think that reapplication for conditions at the end of the day ends up being the better option for rangers, but only because we can spike bleeds and maintain poison often and well. When running the weapon combination, even though against certain builds you sacrifice the point, I’ve found that you time your bleed rotation correctly and catch people with it, you even have the upper hand against shoutbows and cele eles (you have the upper hand against eles regardless, since you can apply more and faster than they can remove, and the shortbow with pet control allows you to waste a warriors longbow cleanse which gives you the upper hand against them since you can out range their fire field).

My other point, and I want to incorporate this as a response to @Fluffball as well;
Neither of you run Empathic Bond, and outside of dueling, I honestly don’t understand how you are surviving well in teamfights without it. Duels are fine without it, you have more than enough removal with just Survival of the Fittest in a 1v1.
I ask because in teamfights, especially when I am against Abjured premades, I don’t see how you can possibly have enough condition removal with just SotF. Also, I see the value in Poison Master, and I have very much wanted to incorporate it into my builds for awhile but haven’t been able to bring myself to do so because I feel like I melt in teamfights without it.
Is the solution that you just try to exclusively play sidepoints or something? I’ve been very curious because it’s really the only thing on ranger that still challenges me.

Eggyokeo.9705:

a couple of questions, which i sure you went through on your testing precess

Why not use hoelbrak runes? (i get the krait rune choice)
Why strength of spirit over Natures Protection or Natures bounty?
Why not use earth or torment sigils? over geo
and i this is properly personal preference question but Jungle spider or Hound?

Fluffball.8307:

Eggyokeo.9705:

Why strength of spirit over Natures Protection or Natures bounty?

For SB that’s the only way to deal damage I’m guessing. It’s awfully hard to get behind someone unless it’s like 3v3.

Pretty much this hits it right on the head. The other is opportunity cost/mileage. You can take a trait the saves you maybe from one burst (I say maybe because it doesn’t necessarily save you from a Guardian ring rotation or if a Panic Strike thief gets their Panic Strike proc).
Meanwhile, Strength of Spirit gives you a little more than 100 power, boosting up every single one of your attacks damage. Over the course of a fight, I just find that Strength of Spirit is in effect longer and is providing more overall benefit. Not that Nature’s Protection is a bad choice though! Like Signet of Stone, I would say it highly depends on what you are up against. If you see a heavy zerker composition, you can probably sacrifice Strength of Spirit because against zerkers you don’t need the damage to win but you do benefit from more longevity.

For the hoelbrak runes, it is mostly because I don’t exclusively teamfight, focus on might stacking, or lack removal options (like an engineer would comparatively outside of transmute and healing turret). Not to say the runes don’t stack might for you, they do, but I don’t feel that you take full advantage of all of the durations it provides when you stack might exclusively with the rune effect. But, my preference on this also prefers the hyper offensive nature of the Krait runes, and Hoelbrak is absolutely a strong choice that I would pick if I planned on teamfighting more, had a dedicated team, or was running without Empathic Bond.

I touched on this a little previously, but basically, with only 30-36% crit chance, I can’t get the crit proc sigils to proc often enough to make them a super strong choice. However, I would love torment runes I could get the build to proc a little more often. It would make a great constant added condition to the build for opponents cleansing skills to eat. If I was running Rabid, I would definitely go torment sigils. Geomancy is just the more reliable option for the build, and the bleeds last an extremely long time on top of it.

For the spider versus hound question, I explained it somewhere in the wall of text I responded with to Sebrent that I don’t honestly expect you to read unless you want a more elaborate answer lol. But basically, I don’t like the spiders poison field and having to constantly cancel it/not having full control over it as a targeted skill because it would be an amazing skill to be able to on demand place on a teamfight or downed bodies, but the way the spider AI uses it is obnoxious and the skill itself takes way too long to complete and is wasted often unless you manage the spider constantly. The other reason is that as a ranged pet, I can’t micromanage spiders the way I want to by placing them in the position they would be most optimal, and the places they stop and attack are ridiculous choices at times and can be completely inefficient and the lack of ability to micro them somewhere else bothers me to no end. Also, spiders are just squishier in general and die quicker, so the lack of being able to control their position plus that just makes me prefer canines which are simpler to manage and more predictable overall to me.

Empathic Bond vs. Survival of the Fittest

I outgrew Empathic Bond long ago. It’s hard for me to say how I survive in team fights but it comes down to a few thins as to why I don’t take it anymore. In fights, the vast majority of time I have conditions on me and I want them cleared I want them cleared NOW! That alone is the biggest drawback to Empathic Bond, because a lot of the times I would end up doing things like using SoR or another active cleanse JUST as Empathic Bond would tick. I knew this because I would be moving to press the key, watching my conditions about to disappear and they would disappear MOMENTS before my finger finished pressing the active and it would be too late for my body to register Empathic Bond ticked and stop the motion of pressing the condi clear key. This led to situations where my ONLY condi clear would be Empathic Bond because I had just wasted an active on a passive that had a timer I couldn’t keep track of. Moreover, It was an incredibly inefficient situation that drove me nuts.

For team fights I think it depends a little on the weapon set. With high evasion weapons you don’t need as much because you should be able to evade a lot of it + SoR is enough condi clear a lot of the time. For lb/gs you have positioning, stealth, and the block, as well as SoR. So we have the weapons available to us, as well as positioning, to prevent unneeded condition damage. Moreover, if we have SotF we should always have a condi clear available and if we don’t we should probably not be in the “danger zone” as much until the cds are back up. Against teams like Abjured, I have played them with only SoR for clear and it comes down to this: when to clear. I would clear at two times vs them; 1. Fear -> wait for dark path -> cleanse and stealth. 2. Get pulled -> wait for the condis to stack up for the duration of the slick shoes -> cleanse. That alone can keep me alive and with SotF and just LR, entangle, and SoR surviving vs them is much easier imo. So to sum this paragraph up, we have enough condi clear from other ways and it’s all active which is far superior. When we don’t have cds available we have positioning and can do ranged damage until those cds are back. We also have teammates that SHOULD have some condi clear for us (granted I often cry when in solo queue and a “top player” is on shoutbow and I’m standing next to them after we’ve won a fight just watching myself die to burning because they aren’t paying attention to cleanse me.

Not to mention, Empathic Bond KILLS our pets. You can’t condi clear your team or yourself with SoR if your pet is dead, you can’t use your pet for lockdown, dps, peels, etc when they are dead. Empathic Bond imho is more of a hindrance than a benefit.

I’ve gone so long without Empathic Bond I can never go back and my casual friends that have tried some builds without it now say the same thing. Plus, I really think it opens up some more options when we no longer have to go 30 into WS (Every other class traits for traits and doesn’t care about stats… I think we can do the same… like a condi build without any points in WS even)… granted we have to have 30 there or in NM for most cases when we can’t stand at 1500 range pew pewin….

At the end of the day I think the trait was aptly named, Survival of the Fittest… it’s just evolutionarily superior to Empathic Bond

Hope that helps man.

The biggest issue with NOT running EB is when you duel a ranger who does have EB… but then… all you have to do is play defensive and kill their pet after they swap.

Eurantien.4632:

Empathic Bond vs. Survival of the Fittest

I outgrew Empathic Bond long ago. It’s hard for me to say how I survive in team fights but it comes down to a few thins as to why I don’t take it anymore. In fights, the vast majority of time I have conditions on me and I want them cleared I want them cleared NOW! That alone is the biggest drawback to Empathic Bond, because a lot of the times I would end up doing things like using SoR or another active cleanse JUST as Empathic Bond would tick. I knew this because I would be moving to press the key, watching my conditions about to disappear and they would disappear MOMENTS before my finger finished pressing the active and it would be too late for my body to register Empathic Bond ticked and stop the motion of pressing the condi clear key. This led to situations where my ONLY condi clear would be Empathic Bond because I had just wasted an active on a passive that had a timer I couldn’t keep track of. Moreover, It was an incredibly inefficient situation that drove me nuts.

For team fights I think it depends a little on the weapon set. With high evasion weapons you don’t need as much because you should be able to evade a lot of it + SoR is enough condi clear a lot of the time. For lb/gs you have positioning, stealth, and the block, as well as SoR. So we have the weapons available to us, as well as positioning, to prevent unneeded condition damage. Moreover, if we have SotF we should always have a condi clear available and if we don’t we should probably not be in the “danger zone” as much until the cds are back up. Against teams like Abjured, I have played them with only SoR for clear and it comes down to this: when to clear. I would clear at two times vs them; 1. Fear -> wait for dark path -> cleanse and stealth. 2. Get pulled -> wait for the condis to stack up for the duration of the slick shoes -> cleanse. That alone can keep me alive and with SotF and just LR, entangle, and SoR surviving vs them is much easier imo. So to sum this paragraph up, we have enough condi clear from other ways and it’s all active which is far superior. When we don’t have cds available we have positioning and can do ranged damage until those cds are back. We also have teammates that SHOULD have some condi clear for us (granted I often cry when in solo queue and a “top player” is on shoutbow and I’m standing next to them after we’ve won a fight just watching myself die to burning because they aren’t paying attention to cleanse me.

Not to mention, Empathic Bond KILLS our pets. You can’t condi clear your team or yourself with SoR if your pet is dead, you can’t use your pet for lockdown, dps, peels, etc when they are dead. Empathic Bond imho is more of a hindrance than a benefit.

I’ve gone so long without Empathic Bond I can never go back and my casual friends that have tried some builds without it now say the same thing. Plus, I really think it opens up some more options when we no longer have to go 30 into WS (Every other class traits for traits and doesn’t care about stats… I think we can do the same… like a condi build without any points in WS even)… granted we have to have 30 there or in NM for most cases when we can’t stand at 1500 range pew pewin….

At the end of the day I think the trait was aptly named, Survival of the Fittest… it’s just evolutionarily superior to Empathic Bond

Hope that helps man.

The biggest issue with NOT running EB is when you duel a ranger who does have EB… but then… all you have to do is play defensive and kill their pet after they swap.

It absolutely helps. Thanks for the write up man. I’m still in full support of that ranger guide you mentioned by the way lol, but I definitely understand how real life can take precedence and waiting until the expansion to even take a more dedicated leap back into GW2.

I can use this to theorycraft something up and test it out though, but it will take me some time before I can figure out exactly what it is I want out of the build.

Edit: Yeah, my initial thought is just the swap to poison master. Don’t really see anything more optimal than that if the swap off of Empathic Bond gets made.

I sure hope the expansion gives me some new toys to theorycraft with.

jcbroe.4329:

Tragic Positive.9356:

jcbroe.4329:

Can’t wait to see it!

Oh, jesus, yes I made the build on your link and forgot to “link it to build”
… How can I be so bad? Tell me =D

Here it is, sorry for the delay
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQNAT8fjMqUzaHLusw1aABhaVA0uGS2l1d++Df9FHV1D-TZRFwAAuAAJOIAKeCAPLDIf/BA

No you’re fine! This has me thinking of some combinations I didn’t try, I’m going to queue with them for awhile using this as a basis and see if it makes a difference. My initial thought is that I can turn the longbow into the shortbow’s functional role from the build in the OP as a “harrass at range” tool and then optimize the second swap set.

I still also have to mess around with Arrow Slanger’s build some more.

What people usually don’t understand is that Longbow is an overrated Power weapon, and underrated utility weapon. It is the best on-hit application weapon in the game, so far, provides the shortest CD knockback and also a stealth in case you need to reposition yourself.

And as I already said – this build is suitable for on-point-fights. There are various choices in traits to be swapped, but I found myself the most efficient “on the edge”. Once I’m getting lower on HP, I gain stability, 50% movement buff in case I want to rotate (I can achieve that through stealth > sword / lightning reflexes) or simply turn the table and putting fire field just when getting downed. I often face the match-up when I get downed when the enemy is at 35% HP… and I end up winning. You do not want to get hit by Marsh Drake’s Locust Swarm and tail swipe when he is enlarged.

Of course, that is just my play-style. Decap the point > evade around > disrupt the battlefield > rally teammates / finish enemies (you have stealth + CC + Stability for that) > escape in case of being focused.
All of that while having AoE damage, and considerable amount of it.

jcbroe.4329:

My other point, and I want to incorporate this as a response to @Fluffball as well;
Neither of you run Empathic Bond, and outside of dueling, I honestly don’t understand how you are surviving well in teamfights without it. Duels are fine without it, you have more than enough removal with just Survival of the Fittest in a 1v1.
I ask because in teamfights, especially when I am against Abjured premades, I don’t see how you can possibly have enough condition removal with just SotF.

You’re running SoR, EB, SotF and EP. That’s more condi removal than almost anything in the game. I don’t feel like doing the math, but I think that’s more than a shoutbow, and shoutbows are AoE so if you’re near one you can add that to your tally as well.

It’s not really how are Euri and I getting by without EB, it’s how is everyone playing right now getting by without 100% condi cleanses every 3 seconds. :P Many popular berserker builds have almost no condi cleanse. The warrior build ROM destroys soloQ with only uses condi removal on weapon swap if I remember right.

Two other things. Your testing ground for condi cleanses is the Abjured, but you have basically a 100% chance to die there. It’s like testing a bullet proof vest by running back and forth across a shooting range. The vest works just fine, but you’re still going to die (and in this case the shooters are psychotic and don’t stop even though they’re hitting you.)

Finally, evades and CC. Even though condi necros should in theory destory condi rangers, they’re actually pretty easy to 1v1 as I’m sure you’ve noticed.

I’m still personally torn between power or conditions for Ranger.

For power, Longbow is hands-down our way to go given it’s far superior power coefficient. I will say that I feel like I’m my more threatening on my Ranger with a Longbow power build when I’m unpressured than I am with any other Ranger build I’ve run.

I agree that longbow utility is excellent as well.

One issue though is that our other weapons seem to have lackluster power coefficients. This is “okay” if you think something along the lines of “when I switch to Sword+Dagger, I’m doing so to be defensive” … but still leaves a little to be desired. Greatsword’s Maul and Swoop are solid, but that AA leaves something to be desired as well (0.55 and 0.65 power coefficients).

I’m still personally torn between power and conditions for some of the reasons already stated.

• Power Coefficients don’t matter [as much] for condition builds. Ranger conditions do the same damage as any other class’s same conditions (except we can do more with poison, lol) … so no arguing “I do less with conditions because I have a pet” … no you have the same condition damage AND pet damage.
• Ranger can’t reliably remove boons like Protection and Regeneration. Conditions ignore protection (and toughness) and Poison reduces the impact of Regeneration (and all other healing).

I have yet to feel as comfortable in Celestial on my Ranger as I do running straight power or condition. That’s likely on me. Any tips for that would be appreciated. I feel like there is something there I’m missing whenever I try it.

Lastly, I just wish I didn’t have to rely on flanking and/or crits to apply conditions with my auto-attacks. If the new staff handles this and gives me boon removal, I’ll wield it every day all day.

@Tragic;

Yeah, my thinking when constructing the build was that basically, it needs to be able to mold to the situation as well as the other meta builds can (perform a wide variety of roles with a single build) or it needs to be able to do the damage that other power classes builds can do. In practice though, I wasn’t able to get a pure condition or power build to perform either all of the roles (power isn’t going to be able to sit on point ever, pure condition gets very commonly countered by 2 meta builds and common classes and makes those fights, while winnable, impractical to engage in, which means teams don’t have to rotate to you, they can just rotate a single player to you and shut you/your play down) or well enough at the roles I was specializing it for (Power ranger particularly is very easily shut down and other than pew pew arrows, doesn’t contribute damage the way a Thief/Guardian/Mesmer can due to lack of boon removal (thief is arguably low but steal has incredible boon priority), or lack of control options like Guardian who can also use their virtues for team support).

So that was just in general for explanation, but ideally, that’s how I arrived at celestial. How I arrived at shortbow was that I needed a ranged weapon to deal with certain players and shortbow just seemed to fit better with celestial and complimented the idea of offhand Axe well (which was the other weapon I arrived at the conclusion of needing for damage spikes).

For your build particularly, I actually liked swapping the longbow over the shortbow so far, but it does lose a ton of condition pressure, so gearing the build to be more power focused definitely becomes the next priority. However, I didn’t really like the sword for the purposes of how I was running the build, just because at that point I felt like I had lost so much condition application that celestial was no longer the best choice for the build. So I actually swapped in Axe for Sword and was doing fairly well with it (Longbow Axe/Dagger). I’ll have to play around with it more to optimize rune and sigil choices, because initially I decided on Pack runes and Air/Geomancy on the longbow, but that didn’t feel effective, more due to the inability to get Air to proc often enough than the Geomancy sigil.

So I’m still messing around with it, but the main draw the longbow has over the shortbow is that people are still terrified of Rapid Fire. I mean, getting people to blow their defenses by just camping longbow (something that is harder to do with shortbow) and then doing a condition rotation on them was incredibly satisfying and worked well against a lot of players, especially engineers who immediately jump to blocking with gear shield and dodges before they every recognized you weren’t a typical power build, and then just had to eat the Axe rotation lol.

So I’m still playing around with it, but I like its potential and how it plays so far. In one of my matches I felt really bad because I kept beating an Axe/Dagger Sword/Torch survival ranger with this build and I can only imagine the thoughts running through my head if I were on the receiving end and losing that fight (wtf is this build, I shouldn’t be losing to this) lol.

Fluffball.8307:

jcbroe.4329:

My other point, and I want to incorporate this as a response to @Fluffball as well;
Neither of you run Empathic Bond, and outside of dueling, I honestly don’t understand how you are surviving well in teamfights without it. Duels are fine without it, you have more than enough removal with just Survival of the Fittest in a 1v1.
I ask because in teamfights, especially when I am against Abjured premades, I don’t see how you can possibly have enough condition removal with just SotF.

You’re running SoR, EB, SotF and EP. That’s more condi removal than almost anything in the game. I don’t feel like doing the math, but I think that’s more than a shoutbow, and shoutbows are AoE so if you’re near one you can add that to your tally as well.

It’s not really how are Euri and I getting by without EB, it’s how is everyone playing right now getting by without 100% condi cleanses every 3 seconds. :P Many popular berserker builds have almost no condi cleanse. The warrior build ROM destroys soloQ with only uses condi removal on weapon swap if I remember right.

Two other things. Your testing ground for condi cleanses is the Abjured, but you have basically a 100% chance to die there. It’s like testing a bullet proof vest by running back and forth across a shooting range. The vest works just fine, but you’re still going to die (and in this case the shooters are psychotic and don’t stop even though they’re hitting you.)

Finally, evades and CC. Even though condi necros should in theory destory condi rangers, they’re actually pretty easy to 1v1 as I’m sure you’ve noticed.

Yeah I definitely get that (or otherwise I wouldn’t be open to changing the build at all, but I do recognize it’s total overkill lol).

It’s more of when I do attempt to run without EB, I always seem to end up in a situation where I end up dead and I think to myself “wow, I wouldn’t be dead right now if I had had EB.” However, it’s going to be on me where I have to start recognizing that even if I had EB, I would have still lost and be dead, just not as quickly, but that there would have been nothing I could have done either way.

It’s something that I’m going to have to come up with some sort of metric for tracking. Not super specific or anything, just keeping track of all the times when playing without EB that I had wished I had EB, and then logically thinking through the fight to see if it would have really mattered.

But combining this response with the response I just made to Tragic, if I drop EB, I can take some of the things I learned from that build and incorporate it with the trait theorycrafting to boost up the damage on it in a way I currently haven’t been able to because I’ve been approaching the build as being “trait locked.”

Anyhow, I appreciate the response! Hopefully I can use the information from both you and Eurantien to get past my current limitations as a player.

Biggest issue with EB is the invisible 10s interval (ignoring it can kitten your pet <_<).

Is EB about to cleanse this or am I going to have to eat it for the next ~9 seconds?
I never want to rely on it because those ~9 seconds are the difference between me living and me eating dirt the conditions so carefully prepared for my face.

Sebrent.3625:

I’m still personally torn between power or conditions for Ranger.

For power, Longbow is hands-down our way to go given it’s far superior power coefficient. I will say that I feel like I’m my more threatening on my Ranger with a Longbow power build when I’m unpressured than I am with any other Ranger build I’ve run.

I agree that longbow utility is excellent as well.

One issue though is that our other weapons seem to have lackluster power coefficients. This is “okay” if you think something along the lines of “when I switch to Sword+Dagger, I’m doing so to be defensive” … but still leaves a little to be desired. Greatsword’s Maul and Swoop are solid, but that AA leaves something to be desired as well (0.55 and 0.65 power coefficients).

I’m still personally torn between power and conditions for some of the reasons already stated.

• Power Coefficients don’t matter [as much] for condition builds. Ranger conditions do the same damage as any other class’s same conditions (except we can do more with poison, lol) … so no arguing “I do less with conditions because I have a pet” … no you have the same condition damage AND pet damage.
• Ranger can’t reliably remove boons like Protection and Regeneration. Conditions ignore protection (and toughness) and Poison reduces the impact of Regeneration (and all other healing).

I have yet to feel as comfortable in Celestial on my Ranger as I do running straight power or condition. That’s likely on me. Any tips for that would be appreciated. I feel like there is something there I’m missing whenever I try it.

Lastly, I just wish I didn’t have to rely on flanking and/or crits to apply conditions with my auto-attacks. If the new staff handles this and gives me boon removal, I’ll wield it every day all day.

Yeah, with celestial, I totally understand your sentiment with it and I really honestly can’t give you and play tips because the build itself plays almost exactly like a Rabid Shortbow Axe/Dagger build, but trades a little bit of condition damage for much more power damage (as far as the tradeoffs are concerned). The only time you would notice a difference between the way the builds perform is against warriors and eles, where the matchup definitely gets weighed more heavily in your favor than if you were purely condition or purely power. Outside of that, I doubt you would notice a difference in performance in the builds, because no other classes can really sustain in a manner where you need to pressure them with both more damage types more than just specializing for one.

Honestly, with what Eurantien said, because he’s absolutely right, a pure condition damage build can beat every other build in the game except a shoutbow, and the only reason why we are worried about our performance against a singular build is because that build is “meta” and super commonplace on every single team, and the build itself shuts down condition ranger so well that a smart person/team will rotate to where you are and consistently hardcounter you, which hurts your team enough that you would be better off on another build/class.

But I agree with you on the shortbow. It isn’t my favorite weapon, it’s simply “something that works more for what I need it to do right now.” But with the ongoing discussion I’ve been having with Tragic, I started testing longbow in the position and am liking it equally if not more, I’ll just have to change the build around to suit being more power based while still having a strong condition spike against the builds you need/want a condition spike for.

I can’t wait for staff though. Even if it ends up being less than optimal in the long run, it the immediate release, the breath of fresh air will be so relieving. Combine that with a trait work, potentially an entire new Druid traitline, and even possibly new utilities and pet functionality, and I think I should have more than enough new toys to satisfy my theorycrafting urges for a long time.

Totally confused with the OP saying that thieves counter lb power builds, since it’s been the other way around in my experience (especially against D/P). It’s just too easy to burst them down imo. S/d can be a bit harder, but if you can time a point blank and gas stun, then it’s easy to land during a break in evade frames to leave them open to burst.

Dahkeus.8243:

Totally confused with the OP saying that thieves counter lb power builds, since it’s been the other way around in my experience (especially against D/P). It’s just too easy to burst them down imo. S/d can be a bit harder, but if you can time a point blank and gas stun, then it’s easy to land during a break in evade frames to leave them open to burst.

On an equal skill tier, thieves counter power builds. They know you are a priority target, and stick to you like glue with multiple shadowsteps. They can evade your burst every time, and really good thieves will use Headshot (and of course Steal, if it is S/D they can evade the channels) to interrupt your heals and channels.

Most importantly, they don’t head on engage you or ever try to duel you in a “traditional” sense. They engage from stealth and are on you instantly, always trying to catch you unaware and essentially 1 shot you.

The amount of thieves that do actually play like this are admittedly low, and anybody who watches weekly tournaments can name pretty much every single one of them. But the point I’m trying to make is that remaining on a pure zerker power build in a PvP match against a thief is essentially gambling that the enemy thief is bad in general, or a worse player than you.

If you win that gamble? Great, if the enemy team lacks a medi guard or a decent medi guard as well, you might as well be freecasting in every fight as long as you don’t face tank a point, and you will absolutely dominate that match. The only point I was trying to make is that the ability to do that caps out after a certain skill tier of player at which point zerker ranger builds plateau in effectiveness while the other builds in the hands of equal or high skilled players have a much higher ceiling of effectiveness and can efficiently handle your build, not necessarily to any fault of your own, but simply because the power build doesn’t have every tool it needs (and also because thief mobility is insane and should have been nerfed to give other classes that rely on positioning more reward for their positioning and not just have a thief insta-port to you before you can ever make full use of good positioning).

Thieves counter everything at low hp when they pop out of nowhere for a kb, but Any sort of regular 1v1 side node fight will heavily favor a lb ranger. Thieves just melt so quickly and rapid fire is one of the best stealth counters unless there’s just a big discrepancy in skill.

Dahkeus.8243:

Thieves counter everything at low hp when they pop out of nowhere for a kb, but Any sort of regular 1v1 side node fight will heavily favor a lb ranger. Thieves just melt so quickly and rapid fire is one of the best stealth counters unless there’s just a big discrepancy in skill.

Why is a thief even engaging you in a 1v1 on side node lol? Competitive thieves spend most of their time +1’ing fightings and free backcap shenanigans, they shouldn’t ever be 1v1’ing anything unless they’ve maybe split an enemy thief/mesmer/necro/ranger/something that goes squish away from a fight and are looking to finish the kill, and even then, they should have engaged that person initially as a +1 while the enemy was focused on someone else.

If the thief is playing any other way, they are either super overconfident in their abilities (or reasonably confident if it is a nameable thief and you will have to tryhard them), completely and totally screwing around and not being serious at all (happens, it isn’t fun to play super serious all the time), or just really, really bad and being a feeder/rallybot.

@Eurantien, Fluffball, Sebrent;

I’m probably going to make some changes to the build later today, but yeah, Empathic bond is totally unnecessary in the current meta. Once I got into a rhythm of when to use the cooldowns for cleanses, it worked fine.

So glad engis aren’t running full condi anymore (commonly). The only other condi class to worry about is necro and you can completely outplay them, especially with a bow to on demand interrupt their heal.

I think the biggest issue when using axe/dagger sword/torch is mobility. Tail Wind, in my opinion, isn’t enough to get by. That’s why I use traveler runes and take a straight increase (which really helps out of combat for rotations). You may lose the 45% bleed duration from krait runes, but if you move the points from skirmishing to marksmanship for Keen Edge (Sharpened Edges only really works with shortbow) you’ll gain 20% condition duration for all conditions, instead of just an increase for bleeds. If they want to peck away at range I’ll either LoS or throw a few axes back and build up some might on the pet.

About Sharpening Stone and Keen Edge. If you can rotate the cooldowns so they don’t overlap, they work pretty well together. I try to preload Sharpening Stone ~20 seconds before a fight (30 seconds to use on a 36 second cooldown) and with my opening burst it usually ticks down below the Keen Edge threshold. Then, Sharpening Stone is off cooldown for my main burst.

I’ll open with a Crippling Talon > Muddy Terrain or DH immob > Stalker’s Strike > Splitblade > Throw Torch. That alone is 16 stacks of bleeding, poison, burning, torment (sigil), cripple and vulnerability (MM minor trait). If they blew their cleanse I’ll throw in Entangle and Bonfire on the next burst. The torment sigils are great for keeping up a perma cover stack and ~100 damage/s.

I’ll add that Offhand Training is a huge part of how I play my build (in my sig). It allows me to use Stalker’s Strike twice on rotation for higher poison uptime and land it with more success. Bonfire gains a lot from it too, not only the size but the 20s cooldown allows it to be used on each rotation.

@Shanks;

Yeah, I get what you’re saying, and the loss of a blade hurts. Eurantien actually made a good point about it though in his breakdown where essentially, rangers would want 3 weapons, blade for mobility, bow for teamfights, and Axe for particular 1v1s, and you just can’t have all three. Something has to get sacrificed. My preference was to focus entirely on the fight aspect of the build and deal with the lack of mobility (I see in your signature the medizerk, you should be well aware of the pains of lacking out of combat mobility lol).

The Keen Edge and Sharpening Stone combo would be my go to in a bleed burst build (where as the builds I posted sacrifice some of the bleed burst for a little extra sustained damage). I could probably make it work, and it was a hard choice for me to put Muddy Terrain on the bar over it, but Muddy Terrain at the end of the day works as decent enough area denial and a nice spammable condition removal and fury source.

If anything, I’d drop Sharpened Edges for Keen Edge, but I can tell you for certain the lack of Tail Wind will really hurt in combat.

I also love offhand training and for me, it is difficult not using it at times, but I have found that added survival from regen, especially if regen procs off of something small (like individual bleeds or short duration poison/burns), is really nice and can really help to mitigate condition attrition (won’t do much against a condi burst admittedly).

Even when I’m running Axe/Dagger Sword/Torch, I don’t really take offhand training anymore since the buff to torch. Really, the fact that torch desperately needed the bonfire size increase was the only reason I used to run it, I find that with practice, I can live without the dagger ranges/cooldown reduction.

I think there is a strong argument for everything you mentioned though, don’t get me wrong, and the differences between all of the choices (other than weapon choice) are so marginal that they could even just be considered situational choices at times. Still, I don’t think that any choices I have made for the level of competitive players it would be up against I have in mind sacrifice the builds performance in any other aspect of PvP, which is something I think people in general should keep in mind haha.

@Everybody, I have made quite a few posts and responses, so it might be a bit of reading, but I have responded to everything in the thread so far, and so far I have added edited builds in the 3rd post from that top in the “Edit 2” section.

Thanks for all of the great discussion and feedback so far! It’s been a very productive experience on my end, and there is a lot of suggested variation that isn’t even a matter of efficacy because of how marginal it is, which can definitely be chalked up to preference.

I want to make the disclaimer here: I am not saying sword/torch and Axe/Dagger is a bad combination, in fact, it is my favorite weapon combination in the game. I just don’t think that it fits into as many roles as I was looking to make the build work into. This is absolutely a discussion worth having though. Outside of situational 1v1s, I choose the bow because I find it more effective in teamfighting than the more melee oriented combination, but if people are willing to reason out with me and/or show (doesn’t have to be live, if you guys know of any youtube vids I missed of it, by all means, post them) that the Axe/Dagger Sword/Torch can be equally or more effective specifically in teamfights, please do, because again, it is my favorite weaponset, I just can’t reason with myself that it is better in every situation.

I think it depends on what you’re doing. SB sits on the outside doing damage. S/T means you’re probably the target, and even want to the be the target (that’s one reason I often take undead over krait.) You’re burning the whole point and you’re hard to catch. It’s great when you have something like 2 engis, a thief and a ele on your solo q team. If you’re on a premade I can definitely see why you want SB, especially since you don’t need to be as mobile.

This is one of the most in depth discussions I have ever seen on this forum