Guild Wars 2

I’m trying to optimize my Ranger for conditions in PvE and would love feedback before finishing my ascended gear. I mainly play fractals, but frequent world bosses and occasionally run dungeons. I believe the 2 builds below are best, but need help picking 1 of the 2 and am still open to others. Please direct any “Go Zerker sword, noob” comments to another topic, as I have found my actual damage to be much higher with a short bow because the time I spend not downed or dead (range and no “root”) easily compensates for the small (~10% by my math) difference in theoretical damage.

WORKING OPTIMAL BUILDS

6/0/6/2/0

Pros:
Malice (+7% bleed, +7% poison, +6% burn)
Assured Targeting

Cons:
Pet doesn’t share boons
Lower crit
Lower Vitality

4/0/6/4/0

Pros:
Pet shares boons
Higher crit (+6%)
Vitality (1,000 hp)

Cons:
Lower condition damage
Unassured targeting

SUBOPTIMAL BUILDS

Maximum AoE

Fails by optimizing burn. See Concepts.

Pros:
Highest AoE damage
Highest damage if another bleeder present
Highest damage if can’t flank
Assured targeting

Cons:
Lowest potential damage
Pet doesn’t share boons
~20 stacks of actual bleed (max 25)

CONCEPTS

Here are the concepts that have led me to these builds. I’d love to know if any are objectively wrong or if I’m overlooking any others.

• 4 points in MM are mandatory (Spotter).
• 2 Points in NM are mandatory (Vigorous Spirits).
• Horn > Torch; 15s fury x5 + blast finisher > 8s fire field + 37% burn uptime.
• Carrion > Rabid > Rampager; damage, objects and defensive balance.
• Sword and power secondary keep you useful vs. objects (reactor core, siege, etc.) and crit-immune or bleed-immune mobs (Teq fingers, etc.).
• Poison Volley does not need a 4s duration. At 3s it leaves a 6 second “cushion” [15s uptime – 9s cooldown] and has the same duration as Flame Trap’s cooldown (which should pull you into point blank range for an easy 5x hit every 15s, anyway).
• Poison Master seems expendable as it currently adds +3.33% total DPS to a condi build.
• 6 MM and 4 MM yield the same base damage because of Strength of Spirit. The difference is Piercing Arrows vs. Fortifying Bond. Also, conditon duration is factored at hard caps, so 4 MM adds vitality and boon duration without costing expertise.
• Piercing Arrows is good because it adds AoE damage and keeps actual damage closer to conceptual damage by assuring that you hit the right target.
• Piercing Arrows can be amazing in boss fights for crippling / stunning adds.
• Fortifying Bond is good because it keeps your pet alive and adds to its damage.
• Use a Jungle Stalker for might + single target damage.
• Use a River Drake for its blast finisher (might or healing) and AoE damage.
• Raptors are weak. Don’t trust the build editor – their bleed is not based on your own malice.
• You need to pack an axe to replace your horn in case your party lacks reflects in higher fractals.
• Burn is the worst condition to optimize because 1) it stacks duration 2) it is easily acquired and 3) its base damage to malice ratio allows 0 malice party members to contribute more through burn than bleed or poison.
• Condition duration food is best in slot because 40% condition damage is harder to acquire than 170 in stats.

Constructive advice / corrections / improvements welcome.

PVE + Condie = no bueno

/zerker

What Xavi said. Pve = Zerk.

Example:

Your Flame Trap does 6 sec burning hitting 4380 every 15 sec on 5 targets.
Sword auto atk on berserker build does the same damage on 3 targets in 1.5 sec.

I think its not viable, but you should play with what makes you have fun.

Conditions central builds and ‘optimizing’ don’t work together in dungeons.
I know it’s a nice idea and all, and we all wanna be ‘ranged’ rangers but it’s not good for that content.

Optimizing for conditions do not work well in a team setting whether it be fractals or dungeons. I understand that the need to try something new and different is fine but when you are in a team things change as other people need to be contributing to the composition as well. If you ever get matched up with a condi necro, any of those builds you posted will lose the condition damage effect and you will only be left with the direct damage which you are not prioritizing in.

You mentioned bringing offhand axe for the reflects. If the reflect roll is falling on you then there will be issues due to the cool down of that skill.

I’m not saying your build is bad…it’s just not optimal for a team environment.

Also…if you are finding yourself dying a lot while on sword, it would be advisable to turn off the auto attack and practice without it. You could also use a greatsword even though that is a dps loss from sword.

Either way…hope you have fun.

Thank you for your feedback.

I am really looking for advice on how to optimize conditions, though; not whether or not it is better to use Berserker gear.

Lynnie.7213:

Your Flame Trap does 6 sec burning hitting 4380 every 15 sec on 5 targets.
Sword auto atk on berserker build does the same damage on 3 targets in 1.5 sec

Yes, but it’s more like 7300 / 15s because your #4 and a single #1 shot (20% out of 5) will combo, applying 2s more burn each.

Also, Flame Trap accounts for ~10% of a condi ranger’s dps (though probably a few percent more in Maximum AoE – the build whose numbers are cited). If sword auto is 100% of Berserker damage and it does 4380 / 1.5s, and Flame Trap is as much as 17% of that Carrion build’s damage and it does 7300 / 15s, then the paths are actually competitive with each other (assuming you are the only condi build present). But again, I do not want to get involved in a Condi vs. Zerker debate; I have already experienced evidence that condi is at the very least feasible (I consistently pull aggro from melee Zerk builds in fractals and TA and can bring an identical mob to 50% in the time it takes 4 other players to kill 1) and my math shows condi to come well within 10% of Zerk’s theoretical damage.

Please try to keep constructive criticism focused on how to optimize condition damage in PvE as a ranger.

Well how to optimize condi ranger in pve while looking at dungeon/fractale…

- First off you’ll have to absolutely ask for no guard in your party (they passively apply burn, it’s no good for your condition). Remove sun spirit if you have a guard… well even if you don’t.

- Second, ask your party member to change their traits/weapon so that they won’t apply bleeds or poison.

- Third, you want a pet that will blast in your firefields remove these unsighly bird of your build and take the almighty riverdrake. Or at least a cat… birds are plagued by their swiftness shout that make them lose way to much dps. (Note : more blast mean more might, mean more condi dps)

Lastly but not the least there is a fractal level where condi actualy buff enemy. Try to skip this level.

And then I saw : “Expertise training”… I’d really like if you could explain why you use this one instead of “off hand training”. Assuming your pet is at 25 might stack he will still underperform (condition wise) in front of any guy without might stack. Let just say a pet trait for condi is still in direct competition with his master (if this master is in a condi setup). Pet’s condi damage are (even traited) laughable.

Superior sigil of force on your horn could be replace to. Not to say that superior sigil of blood lust and superior sigil of corruption don’t work together you can remove at least one of these 2 sigil.

Well that’s the holes I see in your build right now. It may be a good solo build but it’will perform poorly in a group setup.

Dadnir.5038:

- First off you’ll have to absolutely ask for no guard in your party (they passively apply burn, it’s no good for your condition). Remove sun spirit if you have a guard… well even if you don’t.

Your language is a bit extreme, but this is a great case in favor of build #1 and #2. Guardians have only 25% burn uptime [1s burn / 5 attacks (@ 1.2 attacks/s)]. Builds #1 and #2 above only have 63% burn uptime, even using Sun Spirit. This leaves ample room for overlap. If you have more than 1 additional source of burn, though, QZ or SS are probably better than Sun Spirit.

Dadnir.5038:

- Second, ask your party member to change their traits/weapon so that they won’t apply bleeds or poison.

This shouldn’t be necessary. You can only maintain 20 stacks of bleed in actual play assuming a raptor pet and 10 stacks without any pet bleeds. You really don’t need to ask others to untrait their bleeds. Even if your party manages to maintain 16+ stacks without you, each stack you apply is 150/s, compared to 42.5/s from those with 0 malice. So, even against a bleed capped baddie, your bleeds are adding up to 107.5/s.

Dadnir.5038:

- Third, you want a pet that will blast in your firefields remove these unsighly bird of your build and take the almighty riverdrake. Or at least a cat… birds are plagued by their swiftness shout that make them lose way to much dps. (Note : more blast mean more might, mean more condi dps)

Drake / Cat. Thank you, this is very helpful advice in light of the previous bit.

Dadnir.5038:

Lastly but not the least there is a fractal level where condi actualy buff enemy. Try to skip this level.

Sword / Power secondary – you should still be able to contribute. Also, that’s balanced by Fleeting Precision (and to some extent Overextended) imo, as you can help pick up slack when others are weakened (and expect them to do the same for you).

Dadnir.5038:

And then I saw : “Expertise training”… I’d really like if you could explain why you use this one instead of “off hand training”. Assuming your pet is at 25 might stack he will still underperform (condition wise) in front of any guy without might stack. Let just say a pet trait for condi is still in direct competition with his master (if this master is in a condi setup). Pet’s condi damage are (even traited) laughable.

You’re right. Adjusting later tonight.

Dadnir.5038:

Superior sigil of force on your horn could be replace to. Not to say that superior sigil of blood lust and superior sigil of corruption don’t work together you can remove at least one of these 2 sigil.

Going to fiddle with this tonight, as well. The idea is to be able to switch to a diminished power build for objects, crit/bleed-immune mobs, etc.

Dreadfox.8031:

Your language is a bit extreme, but this is a great case in favor of build #1 and #2. Guardians have only 25% burn uptime [1s burn / 5 attacks (@ 1.2 attacks/s)].

Radiance 3 will refresh Virtue of Justice anytime you kill a foe; that means 16+ seconds of Burning per killed foe. Against trash mob that means constant Burning, and against bosses more than 50% burning uptime.

In a group setting, Condition Damage simply falls short because players players overlap with your damage. That’s just how condition damage is, and why you’re better off playing with a direct damage spec if you want to play better in group PvE content like dungeons.

With that said, I’m pretty certain this isn’t even optimized condition damage for a Ranger. :X If you really want to this route (maybe for solo play and such), then my guess would be to use Rabid gear and Sharpened Edges with a build like this:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQRBMhd+1IlKNr2qiNLUtGwQo62CBL7A4AGAf/QGPVisJ-ThRGABA8EAUS5XCnEgEV/ht9H9DVpEkUAwMNC-e

I’m not sure how good that build is, but for a condi build, I think it’ll do more damage than what you have posted.

You start battles using Mighty Roar from the Juvenile Stalker for the Might. You lay down your fire field from Torch, and make sure to blast finish in it with Warhorn for Might stacks, and you use Heal as One off cooldown for more Might. You swap weapons off CD to proc Battle Sig. Use your fastest attacks off CD to proc more Bleeds from Sharpened Edges. Hunter’s Call + Rabid Gear + Sharpened Edges is hilarious amounts of bleed. Use Sharpening Stones for more Bleeds.

Overall, not at all for team play because it’s a Condi Spec, but maybe if someone wanted to solo harder content and wanted the benefit of higher Toughness… I could see it working out.

Dreadfox.8031:

Thank you for your feedback.

I am really looking for advice on how to optimize conditions, though; not whether or not it is better to use Berserker gear.

Lynnie.7213:

Your Flame Trap does 6 sec burning hitting 4380 every 15 sec on 5 targets.
Sword auto atk on berserker build does the same damage on 3 targets in 1.5 sec

Yes, but it’s more like 7300 / 15s because your #4 and a single #1 shot (20% out of 5) will combo, applying 2s more burn each.

Also, Flame Trap accounts for ~10% of a condi ranger’s dps (though probably a few percent more in Maximum AoE – the build whose numbers are cited). If sword auto is 100% of Berserker damage and it does 4380 / 1.5s, and Flame Trap is as much as 17% of that Carrion build’s damage and it does 7300 / 15s, then the paths are actually competitive with each other (assuming you are the only condi build present). But again, I do not want to get involved in a Condi vs. Zerker debate; I have already experienced evidence that condi is at the very least feasible (I consistently pull aggro from melee Zerk builds in fractals and TA and can bring an identical mob to 50% in the time it takes 4 other players to kill 1) and my math shows condi to come well within 10% of Zerk’s theoretical damage.

Please try to keep constructive criticism focused on how to optimize condition damage in PvE as a ranger.

No serious PvE group would want a Condi Ranger lol. that’s just… sad

There is no logical reason to optimize a condi build in pve as a ranger… you are literally being the most inefficient person if you pick condi ranger over power in PvE….

ive been watching this thread and just shaking my head. op does not seem to care hes just focussed on playing how he wants. nothing hugely wrong with that but its a pity hes wasting ascended on it and that if hes pugging, anyone decent will be more motivated to kick him.

DesertRose.2031:

Radiance 3 will refresh Virtue of Justice anytime you kill a foe; that means 16+ seconds of Burning per killed foe. Against trash mob that means constant Burning, and against bosses more than 50% burning uptime.

Bleed and poison are therefore more important to optimize than burn. Thank you for helping me drive the nail into Maximum AoE’s coffin (along with all other 2s burn builds).

Neko.9021:

With that said, I’m pretty certain this isn’t even optimized condition damage for a Ranger. :X

Please help me get there. That is the purpose of this thread.

Neko.9021:

If you really want to this route (maybe for solo play and such), then my guess would be to use Rabid gear and Sharpened Edges

Do you have math or concepts to support this? If so, I would love to see the numbers / rationale. But for the time being, my math shows Carrion > Rabid until you hit 24 stacks of might, which I am assuming to be an above average number, and at that point Rabid only wins by 1% dps. Carrion deals 57% more damage against objects / siege / crit-immune enemies than Rabid, which happens often enough in my experience to outweigh the 1% dps deficit it encounters at 24+ stacks of might.

Aristocracy runes are certainly interesting, especially with 19 potential stacks of might from personal sources. I don’t think Heal as One or Entangle offer as much as Healing Spring or RaO in a PvE group, though. Especially with Aristocracy runes since RaO would let you hit 25 stacks of might form personal sources. Also, I think Axe and Sword leave you without a true main weapon in a PvE condi build, as Axe is fairly shallow in the condi damage department (Axe: 5 stacks bleed + 0% poison; SB: 11 stacks bleed + 100% poison + more projectile finishers) and a Sword doesn’t do much damage to normal monsters without crit or ferocity.

As for traits, I could be wrong but I don’t think any PvE build can afford to forego 4 MM (Spotter) or 2 NM (Vigorous Spirits) because their group dps boost is greater than any personal boost you’d get with those 6 traits. At the moment I believe 6 WS is also critical for maximum malice and Poison Master – if you are going to overwrite others’ conditions, it seems to serve group dps best if you overwrite them by as much dps as possible. That leaves 2 points that could be spent in MM (Piercing Arrows), Skirmishing (Sharpened Edges) or NM (Fortifying Bond). I have to think that Sharpened Edges is the weakest of the 3, because its net personal gain is only 2 stacks of bleed (from 11 to 13 maintained), it eats into other party members’ opportunity to inflict bleed and without ferocity, crit is probably weaker than power (assuming Carrion instead of Rabid).

J Eberle.9312:

ive been watching this thread and just shaking my head. op does not seem to care hes just focussed on playing how he wants. nothing hugely wrong with that but its a pity hes wasting ascended on it and that if hes pugging, anyone decent will be more motivated to kick him.

From the 1st paragraph of this thread:

Dreadfox.8031:

Please direct any “Go Zerker sword, noob” comments to another topic, as I have found my actual damage to be much higher with a short bow because the time I spend not downed or dead (range and no “root”) easily compensates for the small (~10% by my math) difference in theoretical damage.

Also, no offense but I would kick someone that blindly ascribed to groupthink, failed at reading comprehension or couldn’t remain on topic long before an inquisitive player with 10% less theoretical dps, because the prior is much more likely to be a burden during scripted encounters.

Please try to keep remaining posts on topic. This thread is for maximizing a PvE ranger’s condition damage.

Dreadfox.8031:

From the 1st paragraph of this thread:

Dreadfox.8031:

Please direct any “Go Zerker sword, noob” comments to another topic, as I have found my actual damage to be much higher with a short bow because the time I spend not downed or dead (range and no “root”) easily compensates for the small (~10% by my math) difference in theoretical damage.

Also, no offense but I would kick someone that blindly ascribed to groupthink, failed at reading comprehension or couldn’t remain on topic long before an inquisitive player with 10% less theoretical dps, because the prior is much more likely to be a burden during scripted encounters.

Please try to keep remaining posts on topic. This thread is for maximizing a PvE ranger’s condition damage.

Sorry I don’t believe I said anything about going zerker, nor did I call you a noob. I think you yourself may need some reading comprehension.

No offence but it’s a set of ascended gear you are blowing on something that many people may kick you for.

I have to reinforce J Eberle warning:
Don’t get ascended condition damage gear if you only want to use it in PvE. You’ll regret it eventually (unless you have so much gold that you can give each of your character 2-3 full sets of ascended gear).

Regarding your 10% damage difference:
Have you taken into account that Ele+Guardian can keep up Burning virtually permanently, and thus your Burning only deals ~500 damage, not ~800?
Have you taken into account that Warrior, Memser and possibly Engineers also inflict Bleed, and for every stack of Bleed they apply your Bleeds only deal ~100 per stack, not ~150?

I have no clue where you’re getting this math that Carrion Ranger does 1% more damage than Rabid Ranger. Not that I really know either way, it’s just that you’re using such a specific number.

I’ll openly admit though that I, for myself, really have no math behind what I say. I’m just going off of my own personal experience with this game.

Anyway, it hardly matters, since in group content (which is what you want to use this for), other people will interfere in your condi stacks, making your damage bad.

Pulling numbers out of your hat isn’t called “math”.

Oh wow, it just occurred to me. I was wondering where you were getting Bleed Stacks from, since your only source of Bleeding was SB Auto while flanking, and Rune Procs. Then I saw that you’re relying on your pets to deal the bleed damage, even though their bleeding doesn’t scale off of your Condi Damage. You know that that’s pretty counter-intuitive – you’re now actually competing with your own pet on the bleed stack cap. You should be using Cats/Dogs/Drakes.

Also, you can’t use Sigil of Bloodlust with Sigil of Corruption.

Neko.9021:

I have no clue where you’re getting this math that Carrion Ranger does 1% more damage than Rabid Ranger. Not that I really know either way, it’s just that you’re using such a specific number.

I’ll openly admit though that I, for myself, really have no math behind what I say. I’m just going off of my own personal experience with this game.

Theoretical Damage:

I do manual math.

I add up all sources of damage vs. 2200 armor on a per second basis. For comparison, I use the cookie cutter Zerk build, my current Rabid build and my currently intended Carrion build. I refer to the GW2 build editor for numbers (which is why I was wrong about raptors – the editor gives raptors the Ranger’s malice, and I had never used them (because of swiftness and the pet dps graphs) to know better). I assume an attack speed of 1.9 per second with the SB and 1.67 per second with the Sword. I am certain on the SB, but haven’t found verification online for the Sword and would love that. 1.67 has been returned on my many admittedly imprecise tests using dummies. I’m also adding in what I observe to be the actual casting time of several abilities (i.e. including any animation stall). I include weird things I’ve read and/or found, like QZ only adds ~30% to SB speed. Finally, I factor pet dps based on the panther vs. a medium armor training dummy (not moving), assuming 100% pet uptime and accounting for self-source might (Zerk has Companion’s Might).

Theoretical damage is inaccurate as a rule; no human can hit 100% of their cooldowns perfectly, the design of most encounters would prevent a script from doing it, buffs are highly variable and our pets’ dps is unreliable vs. moving targets. Additionally, I’m sure I make plenty of small errors in my math (attack speed, animation time, etc.). Not to mention burst creates wild variation based on buff uptime and encounter states, so the actual contribution of an ability like QZ is impossible to calculate with certainty. Other people will also have ideas for very different builds than what I come up with. Long story short – I really want to pick other peoples’ brains for their builds and the results of their math.

Actual Damage:

I count.

I count my damage in TA, mid-20’s fractals and at Tequatl to estimate my actual (realized in play) damage. This includes everything (downed time, off-weapon time, etc.). I’ve recorded myself running TA using both Zerk and Rabid gear in both the same and different runs to get precise numbers, but don’t have a set of Carrion to test yet. Even if you assume the math to be free of error, the results will still have a huge standard deviation because encounter difficulty is not consistent, buffs are not consistent, boss kill time is not consistent, critical hits are not consistent and my quality of play is not consistent. It has given me some handy personal baselines, though.

All of the above said, I still use my numbers to compare the builds because I need some way (however imperfect) to compare them against each other.

Neko.9021:

Then I saw that you’re relying on your pets to deal the bleed damage, even though their bleeding doesn’t scale off of your Condi Damage. You know that that’s pretty counter-intuitive – you’re now actually competing with your own pet on the bleed stack cap. You should be using Cats/Dogs/Drakes.

Yes, fixed.

Fortunately that has no bearing on my current math, as I used a 0 BM panther vs. a medium armor dummy to find pet dps and applied the same result to all builds (except Zerk whose cat got some might which I added as a flat %).

I actually think that is a very good thing, as now the build stands at only 13 stacks of bleed.

Neko.9021:

Also, you can’t use Sigil of Bloodlust with Sigil of Corruption.

Yes but I left both on for now because I don’t know which will add more to the build’s overall dps. I am assuming corruption, but was hoping someone had math on it.

Fixed. I just did the math and corruption blows bloodlust out of the water on bleed alone.

However, this creates another decision I’m not sure about. Is corruption on the Sword off-hand for stacking during trash optimal? That would allow for maximum malice and a 7s bleed (13 stacks) in the same build by going 6 MM, putting bursting / agony on the SB and corruption on the Sword. Alternatively, you could use a Giver’s SB and go 4/0/6/4/0 with 7s bleeds and still huge malice.

I mainly want to know relative to scale 50+ fractal bosses; I can stomach the few seconds it might cost my guild during a dungeon speed run.

DesertRose.2031:

I have to reinforce J Eberle warning:
Don’t get ascended condition damage gear if you only want to use it in PvE. You’ll regret it eventually (unless you have so much gold that you can give each of your character 2-3 full sets of ascended gear).

Regarding your 10% damage difference:
Have you taken into account that Ele+Guardian can keep up Burning virtually permanently, and thus your Burning only deals ~500 damage, not ~800?
Have you taken into account that Warrior, Memser and possibly Engineers also inflict Bleed, and for every stack of Bleed they apply your Bleeds only deal ~100 per stack, not ~150?

I genuinely appreciate your concern. However, I will only go condi if the math at the conclusion of this thread supports it, and if the math supports it I should have nothing to worry about.

Regarding your second point, it is very difficult to account for exactly how many conditions other members will provide. I’d love help making a consistent estimate, though, because it could help me realize that other sigils / runes are better. I do use your way of calculating overlapped condi damage (yours becomes the difference). The only condition that really worries me is poison, though. These builds only maintain 13 stacks of bleed (leaving room for 12 more) and you can easily swap Sun Spirit for SS, QZ, Sic Em or any situationally useful skill if your party has close to 66% burn uptime without you (Fire Trap is only ~33% based on SB #1’s finisher, and even it can go for one of the aforementioned skills at only a small net hit to dps). But poison can’t really be swapped out since it’s inherent to the SB, and it accounts for quite a bit of the build’s total damage.

I do have a full set of ascended carrion gear and can tell you it is really worth the investment. I also have a full set of ascended celestial and exotic berserker. Carrion is the strongest in that the damage is very high and the survivability is…well, amazing. The sixty-sixty-two ranger build works best for conditions. I am experimenting with rabid, at the moment. I think rabid is meant for SB.

I do it slightly different than you, though. I let my pets deal most of the bleeding and focus on fire, ice and poison. I also stick to melee weapons. Most of the active posters on these forums don’t understand the mechanics of the game, so you won’t get much support here—despite endless posts with percentages and fluffy math. The best way to estimate damage is using addition. Just add up the damage dealt over time against a specific foe.

Conditions are applied to foes via a weighted queue that has a size of 9. Conditions with the highest damage get moved to the top of the queue and “bump” weaker conditions down the queue. For open world PvE it is best to have over 1950 in condition to stay in the queue. The vast majority of players avoid conditions altogether, or go weakly into them (500-800) so you won’t have any trouble.

Archon.6480:

I do have a full set of ascended carrion gear and can tell you it is really worth the investment. I also have a full set of ascended celestial and exotic berserker. Carrion is the strongest in that the damage is very high and the survivability is…well, amazing. The sixty-sixty-two ranger build works best for conditions. I am experimenting with rabid, at the moment. I think rabid is meant for SB.

I do it slightly different than you, though. I let my pets deal most of the bleeding and focus on fire, ice and poison. I also stick to melee weapons. Most of the active posters on these forums don’t understand the mechanics of the game, so you won’t get much support here—despite endless posts with percentages and fluffy math. The best way to estimate damage is using addition. Just add up the damage dealt over time against a specific foe.

Conditions are applied to foes via a weighted queue that has a size of 9. Conditions with the highest damage get moved to the top of the queue and “bump” weaker conditions down the queue. For open world PvE it is best to have over 1950 in condition to stay in the queue. The vast majority of players avoid conditions altogether, or go weakly into them (500-800) so you won’t have any trouble.

Bleed stack FIFO queuing says hi.

Are you sure it is a weighed queue?

My understanding is indeed first in first out with no jumping-queue.

If you’re really this concerned for optimization (especially in the context of “speed runs”), you really should just use a direct damage spec. It will do more damage.

Oh My God.8423:

Are you sure it is a weighed queue?

My understanding is indeed first in first out with no jumping-queue.

Certain conditions (Burning and Poison) use this weird weighted-queue system. The stronger condition takes priority and ticks first before the weaker ones.

However, Bleed, which is the primary source of damage for a Condition Build, uses the normal first-in-first-out rule. This reason alone drastically hurts the usefulness of Condition Builds in group content.

Neko.9021:

If you’re really this concerned for optimization (especially in the context of “speed runs”), you really should just use a direct damage spec. It will do more damage.

If the man wants to use condition damage for speed runs then let him. It is a play how you want game as intended. This way he will receive the maximum Feels/sec ratio he seeks. This post is very =)

Neko.9021:

Oh My God.8423:

Are you sure it is a weighed queue?

My understanding is indeed first in first out with no jumping-queue.

Certain conditions (Burning and Poison) use this weird weighted-queue system. The stronger condition takes priority and ticks first before the weaker ones.

However, Bleed, which is the primary source of damage for a Condition Build, uses the normal first-in-first-out rule. This reason alone drastically hurts the usefulness of Condition Builds in group content.

So I presume those conditions that stack in duration use the weighed queue method; whereas those in intensity, first-come-first-serve.

Oh My God.8423:

Neko.9021:

Oh My God.8423:

Are you sure it is a weighed queue?

My understanding is indeed first in first out with no jumping-queue.

Certain conditions (Burning and Poison) use this weird weighted-queue system. The stronger condition takes priority and ticks first before the weaker ones.

However, Bleed, which is the primary source of damage for a Condition Build, uses the normal first-in-first-out rule. This reason alone drastically hurts the usefulness of Condition Builds in group content.

So I presume those conditions that stack in duration use the weighed queue method; whereas those in intensity, first-come-first-serve.

Yes. This applies to Regeneration as well.

Archon.6480:

Conditions are applied to foes via a weighted queue that has a size of 9. Conditions with the highest damage get moved to the top of the queue and “bump” weaker conditions down the queue. For open world PvE it is best to have over 1950 in condition to stay in the queue. The vast majority of players avoid conditions altogether, or go weakly into them (500-800) so you won’t have any trouble.

Very helpful, didn’t know queue size, thanks!

I’m not worried about condi damage against world bosses. Most are easy enough to make Carrion or Rabid’s base damage sufficient, and the two that present a challenge feature several places for condi builds to excel (Teq – boats, hills, turrets; Wurm – husks or trait 6 NM and 2 BM to spam AoE swiftness with shouts).

Neko.9021:

Certain conditions (Burning and Poison) use this weird weighted-queue system. The stronger condition takes priority and ticks first before the weaker ones.

However, Bleed, which is the primary source of damage for a Condition Build, uses the normal first-in-first-out rule. This reason alone drastically hurts the usefulness of Condition Builds in group content.

I don’t think FIFO is a major problem in group content. At this point I would really like help finding some way to estimate an average group’s conditions, though.

Previous math had bleed at ~40% of the build’s damage; I’ll have to recalculate with these new builds, but each stack of bleed should only be ~7% of the build’s damage. With only 13 maximum stacks (~11 in reality), a group would need to average 3 bleeds per character to diminish your dps (~3.5 in reality). Given the unpopularity of conditions in PvE, I’d imagine 3 – 3.5 bleed stacks to be above average, but again I’d really love some help finding average condi stacks / uptime per character (from those that know the cookie cutter builds for other classes). I’m willing to assume 1 War and 1 Guard per group, because that seems to be my mode in fractals.

Just Fraps’d several pet kills and ran numbers.

• Pet is ~18% of 6/0/6/2/0’s dps.
• 1 Cat = 1.2 Raptors
• Jungle Stalker = +12% party base damage (5 might, 64% uptime)
• Cat = -117.5 Ranger dps per bleed pushed out (begins @ 8 stacks from party)

These numbers make it difficult to swap out Jungle Stalker unless Mighty Roar is on cooldown. But if your party is maintaining over 20 stacks of might and over 8 stacks of bleed, the Owl or Raven become solid choices to keep your bleeds in place (lose party might, gain personal dps). The exact point at which Owl is better really depends on your party, because the value of might on unknown characters is impossible to quantify, but 22 might and 10 bleed seem like good benchmarks.

Also, here are the current 6/0/6/2/0’s damage percentages* by source:

42% bleed
18% raw
18% pet
12% burn
10% poison

*assumes 100% SB use, 5 might, 25 stacks of corruption, +10% crit (fury @ 50% uptime), Sun Spirit, 63% burn uptime, Frost Spirit and Sun Spirit cast pre-combat, 0% downed or dead time and a stationary target w/ 2200 armor.

Obviously the assumptions that led to these numbers will not hold true in actual play (pet will do less, you will switch to LS/WH to blast fire or water once or twice, you will lose some auto attack efficiency to Healing Spring and Spirits, etc). But every condi build should have roughly the same imperfection based on these factors. I’ll run Rabid under the same assumptions this afternoon.

This seems to open up the option to trait out of Poison Master, as poison fell from 15% to 10% traited since my last build. I’m also still not certain that my weapon prefixes, runes, sigils or other traits are optimal.

Feedback always appreciated.

Carrion beats Rabid.

Carrion

• 854 raw dps @ 5 might
• 1,195 raw dps @ 25 might

Rabid

• 727 raw dps @ 5 might
• 1086 raw dps @ 25 might
• +2/s poison damage
• +1/s burn damage
• (1091 raw dps @ 25 might while 4/2/6/2/0)

Where “raw dps” is the non-condition damage of a SB vs. 2200 armor.

[Base Damage] x [Crit Factor] x [Frost Spirit] x [Steady Focus] x [Attack Speed]
(X)((crit %)(crit multiplier) + non-crit %)(1.07)(1.1)(1.9)

The minor difference in condition damage comes the Quality Tuning Crystal’s ratios for vitality (Carrion) vs. toughness (Rabid).

Carrion wins at every might factor. Consider damage to objects and balanced defenses and Carrion wins by a mile.

Rabid with Skirmishing for Sharpened Edges is also suboptimal.

1. It emphasizes # of stacks over damage. It requires a Giver SB to maintain 7s bleeds which costs malice, and in turn maintains 15 stacks instead of 13 making it more likely to lose stacks to 0 malice players.
2. It plainly loses ~30 dps. It adds ~280 dps in new bleeds, but loses ~128 dps in old bleeds, ~49 dps in burn, and ~29 dps in poison. Plus it’s still ~104 dps worse than Carrion in raw damage (being very generous to Rabid with 25 stacks of might and no party bleeds).

Dreadfox.8031:

Also, no offense but I would kick someone that blindly ascribed to groupthink

This is a shame. People that want to run horribly subpar builds often use this line when people tell them the build is horribly subpar. It’s akin to saying there is no point in using a shovel to dig a house foundation when excavators exist, and then having the guy with the shovel say “excavators are group think, I don’t believe everything people tell me.”

I think you’re making a massive mistake crafting ascended condi armor unless you want to use it for WvW. Why not just run your build in exotics until you can figure things out?

Izaya.2906:

Archon.6480:

I do have a full set of ascended carrion gear and can tell you it is really worth the investment. I also have a full set of ascended celestial and exotic berserker. Carrion is the strongest in that the damage is very high and the survivability is…well, amazing. The sixty-sixty-two ranger build works best for conditions. I am experimenting with rabid, at the moment. I think rabid is meant for SB.

I do it slightly different than you, though. I let my pets deal most of the bleeding and focus on fire, ice and poison. I also stick to melee weapons. Most of the active posters on these forums don’t understand the mechanics of the game, so you won’t get much support here—despite endless posts with percentages and fluffy math. The best way to estimate damage is using addition. Just add up the damage dealt over time against a specific foe.

Conditions are applied to foes via a weighted queue that has a size of 9. Conditions with the highest damage get moved to the top of the queue and “bump” weaker conditions down the queue. For open world PvE it is best to have over 1950 in condition to stay in the queue. The vast majority of players avoid conditions altogether, or go weakly into them (500-800) so you won’t have any trouble.

Bleed stack FIFO queuing says hi.

Unsupportive Posters who don’t know mechanics of the game say hi back:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Effect_stacking

Bleed uses weighted queue as well.

Fluffball.8307:

Dreadfox.8031:

Also, no offense but I would kick someone that blindly ascribed to groupthink

This is a shame. People that want to run horribly subpar builds often use this line when people tell them the build is horribly subpar. It’s akin to saying there is no point in using a shovel to dig a house foundation when excavators exist, and then having the guy with the shovel say “excavators are group think, I don’t believe everything people tell me.”

I think you’re making a massive mistake crafting ascended condi armor unless you want to use it for WvW. Why not just run your build in exotics until you can figure things out?

Not a shame, and not a mistake. You’re making a mistake thinking you know the only “superior” build there is for ranger. I don’t know how to say this more plainly, we’ve all been there and realize some of the other builds have more to offer… I assume anyone who digs into conditions on the ranger has already been there with with the max-power-no-thought style builds and is looking to move on. The OP clearly states he is looking to tune a hybrid/condition style build…

You know, since you seem so gung-ho on this, might I direct you to a forum where people PvE theorycraft extensively: http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/viewforum/4280860/m/6563292

Archon.6480:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Effect_stacking

Bleed uses weighted queue as well.

This is interesting, thanks! I had been under the impression bleed used FIFO long before starting this topic.

“The sources with the greatest intensity and number of stacks will take priority in calculating damage.” This makes higher stacks actually seem stronger. Does anyone know if maintaining 11+ stacks of bleed ever occurs outside of condi builds? I am unfamiliar with most non-Ranger classes.

Neko.9021:

You know, since you seem so gung-ho on this, might I direct you to a forum where people PvE theorycraft extensively: http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/viewforum/4280860/m/6563292

Thanks I am familiar with this site and Brazil’s ranger builds. But I’ve never seen numbers for condi Rangers earnestly run by him or other players.

Fluffball.8307:

People that want to run horribly subpar builds…."

Excellent, an expert at the math behind Ranger builds Could you please verify the Sword’s attack speed for me? I only have a few videos of 100 seconds of my own attacks to go on and would really like a more precise number.

Dreadfox.8031:

Neko.9021:

You know, since you seem so gung-ho on this, might I direct you to a forum where people PvE theorycraft extensively: http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/viewforum/4280860/m/6563292

Thanks I am familiar with this site and Brazil’s ranger builds. But I’ve never seen numbers for condi Rangers earnestly run by him or other players.

I’m almost certain if you posted your findings there you will get someone who’s willing to talk math with you.

Neko.9021:

Dreadfox.8031:

Neko.9021:

You know, since you seem so gung-ho on this, might I direct you to a forum where people PvE theorycraft extensively: http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/viewforum/4280860/m/6563292

Thanks I am familiar with this site and Brazil’s ranger builds. But I’ve never seen numbers for condi Rangers earnestly run by him or other players.

I’m almost certain if you posted your findings there you will get someone who’s willing to talk math with you.

It would end in tears.

J Eberle.9312:

Neko.9021:

Dreadfox.8031:

Neko.9021:

You know, since you seem so gung-ho on this, might I direct you to a forum where people PvE theorycraft extensively: http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/viewforum/4280860/m/6563292

Thanks I am familiar with this site and Brazil’s ranger builds. But I’ve never seen numbers for condi Rangers earnestly run by him or other players.

I’m almost certain if you posted your findings there you will get someone who’s willing to talk math with you.

It would end in tears.

Heh heh. Really though, it’s the only place this can be properly settled.

Neko.9021:

Really though, it’s the only place this can be properly settled.

I hope so

I’ve poised my question there, and am still open to constructive ideas here, as well.

Archon.6480:

Izaya.2906:

Archon.6480:

I do have a full set of ascended carrion gear and can tell you it is really worth the investment. I also have a full set of ascended celestial and exotic berserker. Carrion is the strongest in that the damage is very high and the survivability is…well, amazing. The sixty-sixty-two ranger build works best for conditions. I am experimenting with rabid, at the moment. I think rabid is meant for SB.

I do it slightly different than you, though. I let my pets deal most of the bleeding and focus on fire, ice and poison. I also stick to melee weapons. Most of the active posters on these forums don’t understand the mechanics of the game, so you won’t get much support here—despite endless posts with percentages and fluffy math. The best way to estimate damage is using addition. Just add up the damage dealt over time against a specific foe.

Conditions are applied to foes via a weighted queue that has a size of 9. Conditions with the highest damage get moved to the top of the queue and “bump” weaker conditions down the queue. For open world PvE it is best to have over 1950 in condition to stay in the queue. The vast majority of players avoid conditions altogether, or go weakly into them (500-800) so you won’t have any trouble.

Bleed stack FIFO queuing says hi.

Unsupportive Posters who don’t know mechanics of the game say hi back:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Effect_stacking

Bleed uses weighted queue as well.

I urge you to test it ingame

Archon.6480:

has already been there with with the max-power-no-thought style builds and is looking to move on.

Yes, you have clearly ascended to a higher level of understanding than me.

That was an amusing idea, posting on the DnT forums, which are run by math whizzes.

The statement that this should only be used for solo play I feel is pretty important.

Izaya.2906:

Archon.6480:

Izaya.2906:

Archon.6480:

I do have a full set of ascended carrion gear and can tell you it is really worth the investment. I also have a full set of ascended celestial and exotic berserker. Carrion is the strongest in that the damage is very high and the survivability is…well, amazing. The sixty-sixty-two ranger build works best for conditions. I am experimenting with rabid, at the moment. I think rabid is meant for SB.

I do it slightly different than you, though. I let my pets deal most of the bleeding and focus on fire, ice and poison. I also stick to melee weapons. Most of the active posters on these forums don’t understand the mechanics of the game, so you won’t get much support here—despite endless posts with percentages and fluffy math. The best way to estimate damage is using addition. Just add up the damage dealt over time against a specific foe.

Conditions are applied to foes via a weighted queue that has a size of 9. Conditions with the highest damage get moved to the top of the queue and “bump” weaker conditions down the queue. For open world PvE it is best to have over 1950 in condition to stay in the queue. The vast majority of players avoid conditions altogether, or go weakly into them (500-800) so you won’t have any trouble.

Bleed stack FIFO queuing says hi.

Unsupportive Posters who don’t know mechanics of the game say hi back:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Effect_stacking

Bleed uses weighted queue as well.

I urge you to test it ingame

Well then, you should correct the wiki, you clearly are qualified…

Fluffball.8307:

Archon.6480:

has already been there with with the max-power-no-thought style builds and is looking to move on.

Yes, you have clearly ascended to a higher level of understanding than me.

That was an amusing idea, posting on the DnT forums, which are run by math whizzes.

It is possible I started with a higher understanding.