Guild Wars 2

Part 2: The longbow. We have more traits dedicated to the longbow than some of our utilities. 2 Marksmanship Grandmasters only function with the Longbow (excluding underwater combat). The problem is that there are far too many traits that individually do far too little for the amount of total investment needed for the weapon to be a competitive option. For instance, in a versus Player environment (PvP, WvW), Read the Wind is an absolutely mandatory trait to actually use the weapon at its effective range (this is actually a variable that is dependent on the skill level of the opponent). The problem is that you have to provide maximum trait investment on a single weapon just to make it usable at its optimal (not increasing its performance rating to above and beyond, but from poor to optimal) level. And that’s just one example.

Personal Solution: Remove Read the Wind as a trait and make it effect the weapon at a base level, make Remorseless a more universal trait option so that it plays off of other weaponsets, combine Piercing Arrows with Quickdraw and leave it in the Skirmishing line.

Skirmishing Flaws

This entire traitline is devoted primarily to traps and pets. Outside of its passive stat increases, it does almost nothing for the player for power builds except for Moment of Clarity and the minors.

Personal Solution: Rework the traitline entirely so that it more actively interacts with power builds. Maybe some more traits for melee options. My own suggestion was a Fresh Air styled suggestion as a grandmaster that would read: “100% on critical hit to recharge the weapon swap and pet swap cooldown. 5 second ICD.”

Beastmastery Flaws

This entire traitline have even less overall direct effect on the player than the Skirmishing. You are essentially taking a passive mechanic that accounts for 30% of our total output in it and then investing in it to give it overall minimal improvements versus investment, while most trait selections in the line do barely anything for the pet, and barely anything for the few that affect the player. It doesn’t increase the amount of available utility, it barely improves pet damage and survivability based on the opportunity cost of taking something else, and it increases Healing Power which is objectively one of the least valuable stats to build in to, attached to a traitline that is barely worth investing in for its trait options.

Personal Solution: Make this the Beastmaster traitline! Revamp the traits so that trait selections allow pets to provide agreeable utility and damage, decrease the pet death penalty even more than already suggested through this trait, allow the traitline to also improve the players damage output as well. Currently, with the way pets work, Rangers at their baseline are forced to be beastmasters, and then beastmastery only slightly improves that role. Instead, let rangers have the option to go pet or player focused at default, and then make the Beastmastery traitline make players into fantastic and feared beastmasters.

TL;DR

Now that all of that is out of the way, let’s get this conversation rolling! Is there anything that needs to be added to the list? Any specific issues people feel are worth mentioning? Maybe somebody disagrees with one of the line items I listed or the reasons on it and would like to explain why. This thread is not a thread for attacking or arguing with each other, and there is no right and wrong. This is a thread for collecting perspective and trying to gather it into one definitive opinion so that we as a community can evaluate at a core level what we think is wrong with the class, as well as figuring out what is where it needs to be along the way. Please keep it civil and don’t attack each other, and try to remain constructive, especially during the disagreements that are bound to ensue, and also, try to have fun

I second all of it. Regarding the longbow, all traits affecting the longbow, like “Eagle Eye”, should also affect the shortbow. Even if we break the trait down to its naming, it does make no sense that you have an eagle eye while wielding a longbow but not when you’re wielding a shortbow. Furthermore, for the sake of effectiveness, I’m still a fan of an increased chance for projectile finishers tied to the traits, not as separate trait, but as addition to already exsisting ones.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

I second all of it. Regarding the longbow, all traits affecting the long bow, like “Eagle Eye”, should also affect the shortbow. Even if we break the trait down to its naming, it does make no sense that you have an eagle eye while wielding a longbow but not when you’re wielding a shortbow. Furthermore, for the sake of effectiveness, I’m still a fan of an increased chance for projectile finishers tied to the traits, not as separate trait, but as addition to already exsisting ones.

I 100% agree, and really like the idea of increased projectile finishers. But yeah, why we need so many traits just for the longbow should immediately indicate some red flag areas, and there is no reason why the traits don’t affect the shortbow to begin with.

I’d love to see both ideas implemented, personally.

@HHR, I agree with everything you said.

I see no reason why Eagle Eye shouldn’t affect short bows, other than Anet’s insistence that short bows always have a shorter range so its ‘different’ than the longbow, even though mechanically the two are different enough even if they had the same range. I also see no reason why Read the Wind shouldn’t affect Short bows for the same reason. Also, an increased chance at a projectile finisher would be a great addition(read: replacement) to Read the Wind (and I mean for all Ranger projectiles on all weapons including shortbow, axes, dagger, torch, greatsword, etc……like 20% increased chance, so those 20% chance projectile finishers become 40% chance projectile finishers, and 0% chance projectiles become 20%). Its kind of annoying that ‘bunny hopping’ exists in this game at all, and that players can dodge a majority of my Shortbow and longbow attacks at long enough ranges just by jumping up and down. Increased projectile speed should be a given. The lower damage is more than enough of a tradeoff compared to melee weapons.

As far as the longbow goes, they could just compress the rapid fire ability into a 2,5 second channel instead of 4,5 seconds. Keep overall damage and number of attacks the same but just speed it up.

Bow traits are a mess as is the opening strike mechanic. 3 minors and 1 major for something that is worthless to begin with…

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Are you planning on putting an updated version of this thread in the profession balance forum? I’m pretty sure no devs read this forum. Honestly I would prefer you didn’t even put any input from other ranger forum members in to it and simply moved your thread to that forum. You have a far better (edit: and realistic) understanding of the class in those couple posts than the terrible suggestions I foresee coming in future responses.

As ever, fully agree. Nothing really new, it’s the same old problems we’ve always had which they are unwilling to acknowledge or fix.

Too much trait investment for our utilities is still my biggest frustration. Everytime I go on am mesmer and realise there are such endless possibilities for my utility choices without any traits required I die a little inside.

You mentioned it a few times in your post, but I feel power Rangers deserve their own bullet as there seems to be a disconnect between the type of game ANet has made and the method in which ANet wishes us to actually play this class.

During the CDI thread ANet made it pretty clear that they want this class to be a sustained DPS class. However, the majority of people who made Rangers chose it to be a ranged class, which suffer from a rather steep handicap simply because of the range advantage. They then have another handicap due to the pet. They then give them another handicap by giving them no burst and only a limited DPS increase by using their individual skills over the spammabale attacks.

Add that onto a class that they’ve given no real thought to how they’re supposed to sustain themselves for long enough to overcome these handicaps and actually beat an opponent and nearly all defensive options for the class are designed around avoiding damage instead of tanking it.

I simply don’t see how a power Ranger will ever work if they don’t allow the class to move beyond the sustained DPS role they’ve forced us into. Not to mention how incredibly boring it is when your best attack for nearly every weapon is auto attack and all you do is strafe in circles all day while you wait for you or your opponent to die of boredom.

How about including MH axe in with the range fun? Not a lot going for it either trait wise… Otherwise great points.

Fluffball.8307:

Are you planning on putting an updated version of this thread in the profession balance forum? I’m pretty sure no devs read this forum. Honestly I would prefer you didn’t even put any input from other ranger forum members in to it and simply moved your thread to that forum. You have a far better (edit: and realistic) understanding of the class in those couple posts than the terrible suggestions I foresee coming in future responses.

Yeah, but I feel bad just putting my own opinion over on that thread lol. People have already pointed out things that I agreeably missed, and overall the more views and opinions I get in this thread, the more I can dissect and get to the general gist if those suggestions aren’t the most balanced (either underpowered or overpowered).

Then I get to use the community delivery method haha. In my thought process, I’m essentially trying to do a CDI that was better than ANets version of the CDI, and then give them the notes they would need.

Also, I typed too much out, they wouldn’t read it all in that thread (unfortunately). I’ll have to reorganize the information and bullet point it and keep each bullet to about 150-250 words. Which is very, well, I’ll just say I don’t have a positive opinion of the process in order to avoid an infraction.

Kilger.5490:

How about including MH axe in with the range fun? Not a lot going for it either trait wise… Otherwise great points.

That’s a good point, and I totally missed commenting on the Axe. However, I do remember ANet specifically making mention that the Axe is meant to be a hybrid weapon, and thinking to myself that the Condi part of it is fine, but the power side is lacking a bit. I think that overall, this should be a direct improvement to the Honed Axes trait though. Maybe capitalize on the bouncing and shotgunning aspect of the Axe and say something like “opponents hit more than once by a single attack take x% more damage for each hit.” It could ultimately be done a million different ways but I agree the power aspect of the mainhand Axe is lacking in comparison to its condition functions.

Atherakhia.4086:

You mentioned it a few times in your post, but I feel power Rangers deserve their own bullet as there seems to be a disconnect between the type of game ANet has made and the method in which ANet wishes us to actually play this class.

During the CDI thread ANet made it pretty clear that they want this class to be a sustained DPS class. However, the majority of people who made Rangers chose it to be a ranged class, which suffer from a rather steep handicap simply because of the range advantage. They then have another handicap due to the pet. They then give them another handicap by giving them no burst and only a limited DPS increase by using their individual skills over the spammabale attacks.

Add that onto a class that they’ve given no real thought to how they’re supposed to sustain themselves for long enough to overcome these handicaps and actually beat an opponent and nearly all defensive options for the class are designed around avoiding damage instead of tanking it.

I simply don’t see how a power Ranger will ever work if they don’t allow the class to move beyond the sustained DPS role they’ve forced us into. Not to mention how incredibly boring it is when your best attack for nearly every weapon is auto attack and all you do is strafe in circles all day while you wait for you or your opponent to die of boredom.

Yeah, I absolutely agree. It got me thinking for an example in this game of where sustained DPS works. My most immediate comparison went to Phantasm mesmers, who, despite the flaws phantasms have, are fairly strong overall. Then I thought, what makes them so strong? Well, the DPS comparison that is used in the PvE meta clearly shows that mesmer DPS has one of the highest theoretical DPS outputs in the game. The portion of their damage devoted to AI can be cycled much more frequently so they aren’t as heavily punished by allowing one of their delivery methods to be killed. Also, there is an incredible amount of utility phantasms gain just from minors by pulsing boons that help with survival to the player and allies.

Overall, they have high sustained damage and self utility, and can actually rely MORE on their AI in some regards as a DPS tool because they don’t have to micromanage their AI to stay alive or else sacrifice 30% of their output for 1 minute.

So I have taken a note that incorporates what has essentially been mentioned a few times in this thread as “reasons to use cooldown skills as a substantial increase to personal damage output. Not a supplement to the autoattack, actual damaging cooldown skills.” I do also think that ANet needs to take a look at the delivery method of sustained dps and maybe try to increase the subjective “fun factor,” aka, is it fun to just autoattack for maximum DPS? Lastly, if we are supposed to be a sustained DPS class and ANet is unwilling to try to improve our utility options, then our damage options should be competing a lot better than at a lower midtier DPS output level.

Sai Locke.7193:

I know it has been mentioned before but add the pig family f2 to the list. Why can’t this function like the thief steal? Press f2 to forage and f2 again to use instead of having to pick the item up. I still can’t believe that to this day an enemy player in wvw or pvp can pick up your foraged item and use it. Good joke though ANET… the pet is playing fetch with us.

Added to the list. Thank you, totally slipped my mind haha.

The traits for the longbow really have to be compressed. I have no way to make my longbow fully functional. I need read the wind otherwise I miss all the time. I want 1500 range and I want piercing arrows. These three traits are needed to make the weapon viable at 1500 range. But it is not possible. Now there is still spotter which would make longbow even more powerful so there are 4 traits and we can only have 2 of them to get the most out of one weapon!
Solution: Piercing + eagle eye must be compressed to one trait. Or Eagle eye + read the wind. No matter how they do it somehow we need to have a way to trait for hitting 1500 range piercing arrows to make longbow fully viable.

Please do not mix up balance and design.

balance: Oakheart salve is weak for a master major trait because it gives 5s of regeneration every 15s. Compared to other classes similar traits like Dodged march it feels rather weak and uninspired. It needs an additional effect.

design: Pets….

Chokolata.1870:

design: Pets….

Jcbroe hasn’t given any suggestion that removes the design decision, aka. pets, but how to balance it.

To follow up with some comments, first off, I like seeing that we’re all of the same mind as far as Longbow traits go. It is still early in the lifespan of the thread to make the call, but even still, I think it’s a pretty fair assumption to say that if we all (or most of all of us) think the same thing and have the same issues with the weapon regarding traiting for it, then I’m pretty sure it is an actual issue (instead of a perceived issue being created by imbalances elsewhere, like the whole Warrior Healsig debate which isn’t a problematic skill on its own, but gets magnified by multiple utilities and other sources of health regeneration and sustain. Not the place to debate this though, just an observation).

@Chokolata;

I totally understand what you mean, but I’m not actually pushing for the mechanic to be changed at all, and I actually don’t mind the pet being the class mechanic. What I do have a problem with is that even at a base level with no trait investment, we are forced into playing a particular way around that mechanic due to how much efficiency is tied to the mechanic at a base level.

In a more literal description, what I essentially would like to see with the pet mechanic is to get a slightly more complex “Arcane treatment” that elementalists got when they in essence made attunement swapping efficiency less dependent on the Arcane traitline by default so that it was more effective at a base level and players felt less pushed into the Arcane line.

That basic concept is what I would like to see with pets as far as the damage ratios go. All it would take is some number tweaks. Scale down the damage done by pets (GW1 vets think no beastmastery investment but still taking a pet into combat), and increase damage dealt/power scaling/etc for the player accordingly at a base level, and then have Beastmastery scale more heavily with the pets and have stronger pet increases through the traits.

It wouldn’t remove the pets as a focal mechanic for the ranger class, it would just be a mechanic that functions more similarly to how not invested versus invested mechanics like Steal and Adrenaline play, and we would still rely almost entirely on the pets for CC and utility conditions (spiders on a LB/GS set are almost the perfect utility pet selection).

As a matter of fact, in some sense, it would make the pet selection process even MORE valuable because there would be more variation in how the pets function and how invested into the pet a player is, so that making the distinction between damage pets and utility pets would have a much greater effect on the efficiency of builds (also, hybrid Beastmaster could become a thing! Instead of the current either you are or not).

It would also give players a more interactive sense in choosing their playstyle within the class, because not wanting to have to make the pet the full focus and only use it for utility would no longer be anchored down by the pet reducing their abilities at a base level and having to work in its damage to be fully effective, and ideally, the flipside of that would be that full on Beastmaster players would be more even more effective than they are currently with more options with what they want their pets to do through traiting and ideally more synergy with the pet than hitting the cap of what Beastmastery lets BM players hit currently.

At the end of the day though, I don’t want the design changed at all, and the most efficient ranger players would still be the ones who fully utilize their pets and work alongside them to get the job done.

Totally agree with the Pet suggestions.

But about the longbow…speaking from a PvP perspective, I don’t trait into Marks or Skirmishing.

I can’t, because I’ll die.

Traiting x/x/6/6/0 with zerk amulet gives way more damage and survivability than any sort of 6/6/x/x/x amulet combo.

My problem with the bow traits is I can’t find a reason to use them…

Sai Locke.7193:

I really don’t know why Read The Winds is even a grandmaster trait or even a trait to begin with and Piercing Arrows …..well Mesmer GS and Engineer Rifle auto attacks pierce already without having to trait. These things could already be built into the weapon. Definitely Read the Winds. Really? We have to trait for this?

I agree. Read The Wind should be built in with the Longbow already. Remove this trait and have a Grandmaster trait where your projectiles can pass through reflects and projectile absorption. The pvp meta has slowly been moving alot towards anti projectiles recently from what i noticed. More Guardians are using wall reflection. I cant tell you how many times ive had to basically stop dpsing entirely because the only non projectiles moves are from not viable but optimal gs and clunky weird sword and #4 dagger. Reflects/projectile absorption are a rangers worst nightmare making you useless sometimes in fights. I play a ranger mostly to play ranged not be penalized for it which is right now in most cases we are.

First of all they should allow us full control over pet abilities. But they are not gonna do that.
They should also redesign traits, but they are not going to do that.
Further improve pet AI? Nope.

At most we will get the sort of buff Oakheart salve got, ICD lowered by 5 sec for a useless trait regardless.

Valtarius.8671:

Grandmaster trait where your projectiles can pass through reflects and projectile absorption.

Simply piercing through everything seems a little bit OP for me. But if we could pierce through everything but only dealing half the damage if we do so seems ok for me.

I would like to suggest changes to 3 traits that annoy the hell out of me. Oakheart salve , Rejuvenation and Natures bounty.
For anyone who does not remember, these 2 offer 5 seconds of regeneration every 15 and 30 seconds respectively.

My suggestions:

-Oakheart salve- Gain 5 seconds of regeneration when suffering bleeding, poison or torment. These conditions have a 33% reduced duration on you and your pet.

-Rejuvenation- Instead of the current activation requirement its changed to – Gain 5 seconds of regeneration when using a healing skill.

-Natures bounty- instead of increasing duration by 33% it should increase regeneration effectiveness by 33%, as in increase the amount healed by 33% to self and allies.

Frankly Oakheart Salve should have been SotF minus the Fury.

Chokolata.1870:

I would like to suggest changes to 3 traits that annoy the hell out of me. Oakheart salve , Rejuvenation and Natures bounty.
For anyone who does not remember, these 2 offer 5 seconds of regeneration every 15 and 30 seconds respectively.

My suggestions:

-Oakheart salve- Gain 5 seconds of regeneration when suffering bleeding, poison or torment. These conditions have a 33% reduced duration on you and your pet.

-Rejuvenation- Instead of the current activation requirement its changed to – Gain 5 seconds of regeneration when using a healing skill.

-Natures bounty- instead of increasing duration by 33% it should increase regeneration effectiveness by 33%, as in increase the amount healed by 33% to self and allies.

I think the reason why our regeneration traits are so weak is because we have so many of them….no wait, no we don’t… Also…

Oakheart Salve – I don’t think that Anet is going to give any profession anymore condition reducing traits, even to a master trait. 33% reduced duration, combined with 35% from melandru runes, combines with 40% from food, makes the reduction in condition duration literally 99%.

You could argue for it though, because Warriors have an Adept trait that not only gives regeneration, but reduces the duration of immobilize, chilled, and cripple by 33% (dogged march), allowing them to stack effects and get literal immunity from those conditions as well. Just another example why Warriors are way too powerful compared to other professions.

I do agree that Oakheart salve is weak compared to equivalent traits from other professions. It should at least remove those conditions (even if a health threshold is established for the trait, like Thief’s Pain Response)

Rejuvenation – Lets compared to traits from other professions. Engineers get essentially perma regen (under 25% health). Mesmers get 10 seconds every 30 (under 75% health), Necromancers get 5 every 30 (under 90%). Rangers get 5 seconds every 30(under 75% health). Our regeneration trait is half as effective as the next closest profession, for the same investment, and I don’t think armor weight or health differences really makes a difference here. That needs to change! Changing it to apply regeneration on healing doesn’t really make it better than it is now though.

Nature’s Bounty – I actually have no problem with this trait, as its one of the only traits in the game that affects the duration of a specific boon (the other is the Guardian’s Vengeful trait). Its not particularly strong though. Increasing the healing effectiveness instead of duration would definitely make it stronger.

A few other pathetically weak traits (I have no suggestion for improving/replacing them though):::

Primal Reflexes – Other professions have a similar trait that gives them vigor when they critically hit. Ranger have to be hit by a critical hit in order for this trait to activate. Not only that, but the cooldown for our trait is longer than those other traits. we also have to actually waste a major trait for it, unlike 2 other professions that have it as a minor trait, and a profession that has it as a major trait, but can get perma vigor from it.

Listen Anet, I can understand the need to knock this trait down a little because of the access to evades we have on a lot of out weapons, but if it requires you to make the trait pathetic by comparison to other traits, why bother having it at all? Why have it like this instead of actually working to get a different, actually useful trait?

Evasive Purity – All on dodge traits that remove conditions are extremely weak compared to pretty much anything else. Its weak because of the 10 second cooldown. Also, Blind? We can easily remove that just by attacking once. Who is stupid enough to waste a dodge removing that? This trait all around is bad design and needs to change.

Kilger.5490:

How about including MH axe in with the range fun? Not a lot going for it either trait wise… Otherwise great points.

That and they could add one or two more bounces, with Honed Axe for exemple. Then we would have a good AoE option.

arkealia.2713:

That and they could add one or two more bounces, with Honed Axe for exemple. Then we would have a good AoE option.

A 67% damage increase on the autoattack seems a little drastic. What’s the CD on that thing anyway? Like 2 per second or so?

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Valtarius.8671:

Grandmaster trait where your projectiles can pass through reflects and projectile absorption.

Simply piercing through everything seems a little bit OP for me. But if we could pierce through everything but only dealing half the damage if we do so seems ok for me.

Why? It isn’t as if you can force enemies to line up and give you more than three to five hits (kitten ed censor) per arrow. On average, cleave hits more reliably due to enemies moving in clumps rather than lines.

Valtarius.8671:

Sai Locke.7193:

I really don’t know why Read The Winds is even a grandmaster trait or even a trait to begin with and Piercing Arrows …..well Mesmer GS and Engineer Rifle auto attacks pierce already without having to trait. These things could already be built into the weapon. Definitely Read the Winds. Really? We have to trait for this?

I agree. Read The Wind should be built in with the Longbow already. Remove this trait and have a Grandmaster trait where your projectiles can pass through reflects and projectile absorption. The pvp meta has slowly been moving alot towards anti projectiles recently from what i noticed. More Guardians are using wall reflection. I cant tell you how many times ive had to basically stop dpsing entirely because the only non projectiles moves are from not viable but optimal gs and clunky weird sword and #4 dagger. Reflects/projectile absorption are a rangers worst nightmare making you useless sometimes in fights. I play a ranger mostly to play ranged not be penalized for it which is right now in most cases we are.

Or make a utility skill which does this and a temporary damage boost, thus allowing us to both spike and get around anti-projectile effects. This ‘rangers are sustained damage, not burst’ stupidity has caused serious problems for us. When everyone has a strong self heal and no required resource to limit its use, sustained pressure is inefficient and essentially useless.

Fluffball.8307:

arkealia.2713:

That and they could add one or two more bounces, with Honed Axe for exemple. Then we would have a good AoE option.

A 67% damage increase on the autoattack seems a little drastic. What’s the CD on that thing anyway? Like 2 per second or so?

1 axe every 1 second about.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Valtarius.8671:

Grandmaster trait where your projectiles can pass through reflects and projectile absorption.

Simply piercing through everything seems a little bit OP for me. But if we could pierce through everything but only dealing half the damage if we do so seems ok for me.

Why? It isn’t as if you can force enemies to line up and give you more than three to five hits (kitten ed censor) per arrow. On average, cleave hits more reliably due to enemies moving in clumps rather than lines.

No, he wasn’t suggesting that the arrows should pierce through players, we already have that. He suggested that with this trait we should be able to pierce through every block or reflect, basically rendering both useless. This would hard-counter way too many skills in GW2.

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Unholy Pillager.3791:

HHR LostProphet.4801:

Valtarius.8671:

Grandmaster trait where your projectiles can pass through reflects and projectile absorption.

Simply piercing through everything seems a little bit OP for me. But if we could pierce through everything but only dealing half the damage if we do so seems ok for me.

Why? It isn’t as if you can force enemies to line up and give you more than three to five hits (kitten ed censor) per arrow. On average, cleave hits more reliably due to enemies moving in clumps rather than lines.

No, he wasn’t suggesting that the arrows should pierce through players, we already have that. He suggested that with this trait we should be able to pierce through every block or reflect, basically rendering both useless. This would hard-counter way too many skills in GW2.

Ah, I see now. It really should be a skill rather than a trait though, as a spike skill to put them down when they try to turn the fight around.

So some more quick (this time) follow ups.

I like the discussions going about specific traits and the ideas and philosophies behind them personally. As a note, I’ve written down just a generic “Masters of Regeneration,” and cited the amount of sources/effectiveness as a possible improvement.

Adding more bounces to the axe is already a trait for other classes that have a lot more power on their weapons that it effects than the Axe, so having that be a possible improvement to the Axe looks like I fine option.

As a general idea, I think that a vulnerability on crit trait in Skirmishing would be a good addition to all of our weapons in general, and should be looked at/discussed.

For bows as far as some suggestions I’ve seen goes, I would love to add a functional AoE that doesn’t revolve around piercing. Something like: “Splinter Arrows: Arrow attacks now splinter when they hit a target, dealing 75% of the damage dealt to that target in a 120 radius around the target.” Obviously a Grandmaster option.

And lastly:

Sube Dai.8496:

Totally agree with the Pet suggestions.

But about the longbow…speaking from a PvP perspective, I don’t trait into Marks or Skirmishing.

I can’t, because I’ll die.

Traiting x/x/6/6/0 with zerk amulet gives way more damage and survivability than any sort of 6/6/x/x/x amulet combo.

My problem with the bow traits is I can’t find a reason to use them…

I agree, and if I didn’t clearly explain some of the stuff or it was too text wall-ish, as a follow up opinion to elaborate, the longbow feels like it’s missing something as a base function, and the opportunity cost for traiting defensively versus how many traits you actually end up wanting/needing for the longbow is a terrible tradeoff and makes it another heavy investment option we have that we just shouldn’t need for a single weapon when we have to also heavily invest into utilities to make them worthwhile.

There just isn’t enough trait points to get all of the traits you feel like you need, versus other classes that have a lot of their options at a base level to the point where it gives them versatility that rangers just don’t have.

In a sense, rangers have the MOST linear (I’m going to do one thing and this one thing only) build options in the game, which is a combination of everything listed as a negative in this thread, starting with the most glaring problem of the pet acting more as an anchor that does this one thing and can only be improved to do this one thing better (damage with a slight bit of utility on most pets), heavy trait investment for utilities, and on and on and on.

It’s definitely a system of huge tradeoffs that I don’t see other classes having to make, at least not at the level of extremes that rangers have to make.

Have to be careful about moving this thread into a direction about individual traits. You’ll quickly get overwhelmed because nearly half of them have issues.

You should also try to summarize this thread and your previous one in some fashion in some slim chance ANet will take note of it before the Ready Up on Friday discussing Rangers. Maybe they’ll see the direction some of the dicussions have gone and give us more information.

Anet read this and use in the Friday’s Reads Up is just impossible, I can almost guarantee that they already have everything they will say there ready, they are probably just organizing how they will present that info.

About the balance summary and suggestions, an idea suggest during the CDI is maybe change the bonus attributes in the trait lines instead of moving traits, like many players used to suggest moving the trap traits from skirmish, so my idea is to make 2 changes, 1 could be kinda OP so can be ignored:
1 – Swap the Cond. duration from Marksmanship with the Ferocity of skirmish.
Reason: That way power builds investing all in MM will have the max power and max multiplier possible from traits in 1 go, and since rangers have already a lower power scale and easier access to crit rate, it would allow less investment in skirmish and still get the best base damage possible.
Also skirmish like is focused in traps an pets, builds that use any of those can get a lot of benefit from the cond duration in the same line.

2 – Swap the Healing power from Beastmastery with the boon duration from Nature Magic.
Reason: This is the one that can be OP, or just “buggy” with that change you would get the vit bonus of NM and also better healing to maintain that extra HP, also builds focused in sustain damage requires a better survivability, and with this change NM alone would help this a lot, in the other hand the BM line would be too under powered.

I like your original post jcbroe. I agree with everything and reading it sounds like it’s coming out of my own mouth.

I do understand the flaws in Beastmastery (only TOO well) but I don’t understand your solution. It sounds mostly abstract, so I don’t have a clear grasp on what you’re suggesting. Could you clarify your solution or go over it again in greater detail?

SafiMoyo.5130:

I like your original post jcbroe. I agree with everything and reading it sounds like it’s coming out of my own mouth.

I do understand the flaws in Beastmastery (only TOO well) but I don’t understand your solution. It sounds mostly abstract, so I don’t have a clear grasp on what you’re suggesting. Could you clarify your solution or go over it again in greater detail?

Of course!

Take this from another one of my replies:

In a more literal description, what I essentially would like to see with the pet mechanic is to get a slightly more complex “Arcane treatment” that elementalists got when they in essence made attunement swapping efficiency less dependent on the Arcane traitline by default so that it was more effective at a base level and players felt less pushed into the Arcane line.

That basic concept is what I would like to see with pets as far as the damage ratios go. All it would take is some number tweaks. Scale down the damage done by pets (GW1 vets think no beastmastery investment but still taking a pet into combat), and increase damage dealt/power scaling/etc for the player accordingly at a base level, and then have Beastmastery scale more heavily with the pets and have stronger pet increases through the traits.

So like, perhaps if every 1 point (out of 6) invested into Beastmastery decreased the death cooldown of the pet by 5 seconds, and have the BM tree also add proportionate condition damage and ferocity to the pet based on investment.

Then we can have traits that make x pet cause bleeding on its basic attack (and not just on crit) and have it be a strong option because we can build for a condition pet. Possibly a utility function to play off of the already existing Fortifying Bond called Copy Cat or something, where upon F2 activation, the pet applies all the boons it has on itself to allies within a set radius for a specific amount of time.

To some degree I intended the description to be vague because the sheer volume of possibilities that open up by allowing there to be more variation with how we use our mechanic could have us as the community spitballing ideas for hours, as we’re a very creative bunch of players hahaha.

jcbroe.4329:

For bows as far as some suggestions I’ve seen goes, I would love to add a functional AoE that doesn’t revolve around piercing. Something like: “Splinter Arrows: Arrow attacks now splinter when they hit a target, dealing 75% of the damage dealt to that target in a 120 radius around the target.” Obviously a Grandmaster option.

Could be added as an effect to Sharpening Stone (either core or trait). Not the best option due to the CD but add the minor trait to that and you could get 10 hits with AoE potential over kitten (or 36s when traited). This would make the skill usefull even for non condition builds.
Another option would be to create a 3 skill chain for longbow auto, with the last one being splinter (and why not make the second one not restricted by range or with armor penetration, see under). In the same way, shortbow could also see a 3 chain combo with no positionnal requirement for the 3rd skill.
Also some bow skills had armor penetration in GW1 and I think it wouldn’t be too abusive to see that on Ranger since the DPS is poor in power builds if you don’t factor the pet.

I think a 3-hit-chain for the longbow AA would be great. The first one could be a low damaging but fast firing shot which could be used in between the skill rotation to maximize DPS. The second skill should be a hard hitting arrow with longer distance (like a smaller killshot) with a longer channel time. If I recall correctly, the ranger has many “on next hit” effects, like the active of Signet of the Hunt, which compliments one strong attack. The third AA could have some other fancy effects like the suggested splinter arrow.

arkealia.2713:

jcbroe.4329:

For bows as far as some suggestions I’ve seen goes, I would love to add a functional AoE that doesn’t revolve around piercing. Something like: “Splinter Arrows: Arrow attacks now splinter when they hit a target, dealing 75% of the damage dealt to that target in a 120 radius around the target.” Obviously a Grandmaster option.

Could be added as an effect to Sharpening Stone (either core or trait). Not the best option due to the CD but add the minor trait to that and you could get 10 hits with AoE potential over kitten (or 36s when traited). This would make the skill usefull even for non condition builds.
Another option would be to create a 3 skill chain for longbow auto, with the last one being splinter (and why not make the second one not restricted by range or with armor penetration, see under). In the same way, shortbow could also see a 3 chain combo with no positionnal requirement for the 3rd skill.
Also some bow skills had armor penetration in GW1 and I think it wouldn’t be too abusive to see that on Ranger since the DPS is poor in power builds if you don’t factor the pet.

I made a post over 6 months ago that suggested grandmaster traits for adding effects to arrows (including barrage). Looking back, the suggestion needs work, because the effects are kind of weak with individual arrows, but are ridiculously strong with piercing arrows or Barrage Its still sort of relevant :::

me.1234

Glass Arrowheads Marksmanship
Effect Conditions caused by your Arrows last 25% longer.
Effect 2 Arrows Shatter at the point of Impact, damaging all nearby foes. (damage is with a 0.05 coefficient?)

Heavy Arrows Skirmishing
Effect You Inflict vulnerability with every Arrow you fire. (5 seconds)
Effect 2 If your Arrows are Blocked, they still deal 50% damage.

Winter Arrows Wilderness Survival
Effect Your arrows transfer 1 second of a condition you are afflicted with to your target.
Effect 2 Blocked Evaded and missed Arrows shatter at the point of impact, chilling nearby foes.(Chill for 1 second)

Spiritwood Arrows Nature Magic
Effect Every time your Arrows Damage a Target, Allies near the target are healed for a little. (healed for 25 + 5% of healing power?)
Effect 2 Your Arrows are Immune to Retaliation.

Alternatively, we could benefit from an arrow effect being added to weaker grandmaster traits, like Read the Wind and Strider’s defense (though I’m more in favor of asking Anet to just get rid of Strider’s defense and adding a different trait)

I agree with the suggestions and improvements on pets. Here are some of my random ones.

Since pets are effectively a weapon for rangers, how about allow sigils to be slotted onto the pets? Otherwise, how about allowing pets to wear armours, which in turns allow greater flexibility and diversity of the pets’ stat.

Master’s Bond should not be reset upon deactivation or entering/leaving water. The effect should last until the pet is defeated.

If someone is going 4 points into Beastmastery, it seems to be rather serious in being a beastmaster. There is little reason to separate Rending Attacks, Stability Training and Intimidation Training into three different traits. Why not consolidate them into just one.

Have a new trait that allows the ranger to transfer some of its attributes, for instance x% power, y% toughness or etc., to its pets. Have another new trait perhaps that makes Attack of Opportunity a proc effect on crit.

Just letting you guys know I’m still reading and taking notes, but I’ve taken a backseat position since I haven’t been spending much time away from the Destiny Beta on my 360. Will be more visible on the thread again after the 27th when I have to quit the cocaine that is Bungie’s Destiny cold turkey.

Belzebu.3912:

2 – Swap the Healing power from Beastmastery with the boom duration from Nature Magic.
Reason: This is the one that can be OP, or just “buggy” with that change you would get the vit bonus of NM and also better healing to maintain that extra HP, also builds focused in sustain damage requires a better survivability, and with this change NM alone would help this a lot, in the other hand the BM line would be too under powered.

Boom duration sounds vicious. I like it.

Oh lol, “boon” yeah, booM duration would be fantastic.
Fixed.

jcbroe.4329:

Just letting you guys know I’m still reading and taking notes, but I’ve taken a backseat position since I haven’t been spending much time away from the Destiny Beta on my 360. Will be more visible on the thread again after the 27th when I have to quit the cocaine that is Bungie’s Destiny cold turkey.

Off Topic : I prefer to call Destiny ‘Final Call of Gears of Halo Reaching Borderlands/Singularity Zone of War Fall 3.5’

I’ve been told it rips off almost every FPS ever made, but does it all in the most perfect way.

On topic : Honestly there are two major things with pets that if fixed, could be a massive change to the Ranger and might solve most of our problems…

1. Pets should attack and move at the same time so they can hit moving targets.
2. All Pet F2’s should track moving targets just like how the Lynx’s F2 can track targets.

Pets should have aimbot for sure. If I’m going to lose how to manage 30% of my dps and cc hidden behind some random AI mechannic, then I want it to land 100% of time. Otherwise, they should gives us back our dps and make pets optionals and support.

Hey, I don’t play ranger for the pet but for being an archer but I can dig a pet class if the pets ACTUALLY do something.

Holy smokes. These changes are fantastic. The new grandmaster trait is going to be outstanding for sword rangers.

Edit: For those that didn’t see it, signets now affect rangers naturally and SotB has been replaced by a 10% damage boost against crippled (IIRC) opponents. BM pets specific traits have been made generic so they affect all pets. GS got buffs on all 5 skills, LB had a damage boost on autoattack at close and medium range, RF got it’s duration halved, barrage is half a second (IIRC) faster. Axe AA now grants might for every target hit. PoSs moves 25% faster. Brown and polar bear roars are now physical attacks. Miss anything?

Okay, so ummm, after the preview:

• Signets effect us by default
• Rapid Fire half the cast time on baseline
• Read the wind increases arrow AND ATTACK speed
• Damage improvements across various weapons

Need the preview segment as its own standalone video now please, I’m not done having a ranger-gasm yet.

I just about Choked on what I was eating when I saw the Axe Change.

Edit : I didn’t start the stream until towards the end. Now that I watched all of it and saw all of the changes……..JESUS CHRIST!!!!!

I was really hoping we’d see some traits being merged. Now that RtW is 100% mandatory it’s going to be that much more difficult to build a Ranger. Especially in WvW.

Atherakhia.4086:

I was really hoping we’d see some traits being merged. Now that RtW is 100% mandatory it’s going to be that much more difficult to build a Ranger. Especially in WvW.

It will be more difficult in terms of you having more good choices, but you’re coming out ahead no matter what you pick.