I actually have EB, SoR and one cleansing sigil in each weapon sets (basically a clean on weapon swap) in my power build, without SOTF. It’s a hard counter against moderate conditionners but i can still die against heavy ones (cuz it kill my pets, we all know that). A full survival ranger With SOTF will take something else more usefull, really, rather than EB which need to move from WS.
I wonder why all our condi cleanse traits have to be GM traits to begin with? Also, I really think there could be a trait in the BM line that clears x condis upon pet swap or something.
Core stats will be increased from 976 to 1000 and we’re losing the bonus of the beastmaster’s traitline.
What will they do for pets?
the problem in general with Wilderness Knowledge, is that no matter what line its in, is its really too good to pass up for the majority of builds – its staple-ish, even if you only take entangle and troll unguent.
Exactly. I just can’t see any non-glassbow ranger rolling without wilderness knowledge and TU…they are so so good. HS will need serious buffs, and if they want us using shouts and HaO, they will need to rework the shouts completely. Adding more utility to them like lots of boons, condis or stunbreaks. Otherwise their ‘shout line’ will fail.
I think it would be cool if shouts gave boons to ranger, pet and maybe the whole party. To make it different from other shouts in the game, I think shouts shouldn’t apply to the party, instead just massively buffing pet and ranger. Prot to both, might stacks to both, there should be a quickness or resistance shout, a stunbreak shout, etc.
And survival skills should continue to work as anti-Condi toolset.
(edited by mistsim.2748)
My suggestion:
No “Pet does…” traits.
It should be traits that boost the ranger and the pet. So far, rending attacks and expertise training are the biggest offenders that I see.
Expertise training is very interesting in the adept slot! Longer pbaoe cripple, fear, chill, immob, poison, weakness. Pets are becoming pbaoe bots which will ensure they hit more targets more reliably.
ET would work in power builds that don’t need ambidexterity.
I agree that rending attacks is underwhelming because it relies on pet making contact with a single target.
(edited by mistsim.2748)
I feel like I need to make a separate thread just to point out how good the placement of GS is but lets run through an example. You see, GS takes really good advantage of pet taunt and guarantees maul.
Build example
6/6/0/0/6
Call of wild, Moment of Clarity, Remorseless
Most Dangerous Game, Spotter, Quick Draw
Resounding timbre, Two Handed Training, Beastly warden
GS + whatever 2nd weapon you want (perhaps SB is light of feet gets moved to master)
Heal as one + Sic Em + Sig of renewal ( need condi clear )+ X + ROA
Pets will help proc Maul set ups so hard its not even funny. Here are Maul combo’s
Pet F2 Taunt > Maul
Weapon Swap > Hit Bash > Maul (combo up again in 10 seconds!)
Pet F2 Taunt > Weapon swap > Maul > Hilt Bash Stun> Maul again! (thanks -66% CD)
Wait……Damage can be op!!!! Imagine that F2 is a drake F2 and they are stuck running towards your pet!
Not op enough? Think of all the fury you will be procing and how much opening strike will refresh!
Now this is a build I look forward to running!
(edited by rpfohr.7048)
Ok going into more detail about Emphatic Bond, which specialization does it fit? Quick answer is none flavorwise and gameplaywise you still have to shoehorn it into one of them. About whether you can’t move it into one specialization because you miss trait X, that’s the point of a choice, each and every one of them should be something which makes you say “I really want that”, it makes the choice important. Some of them might not be good for what you have in mind but the choice should be real.
Current Problem with Wilderness Survival is that you will go there to grab either one since it’s the only specialization with good condition removal so that fact alone forces you to take it, no matter which of the two you would take.
Current Problem with Wilderness Survival is that you will go there to grab either one since it’s the only specialization with good condition removal so that fact alone forces you to take it, no matter which of the two you would take.
People keep saying it’s a “problem with Wilderness Survival.”
I’m not sure Wilderness Survival has a problem. Empathic Bond has problems. Nature Magic has problems. Our lack of good condi removal outside of Wilderness Survival is a problem.
Wilderness Survival and especially Wilderness Knowledge seems fine though.
Ok going into more detail about Emphatic Bond, which specialization does it fit? Quick answer is none flavorwise and gameplaywise you still have to shoehorn it into one of them. About whether you can’t move it into one specialization because you miss trait X, that’s the point of a choice, each and every one of them should be something which makes you say “I really want that”, it makes the choice important. Some of them might not be good for what you have in mind but the choice should be real.
Current Problem with Wilderness Survival is that you will go there to grab either one since it’s the only specialization with good condition removal so that fact alone forces you to take it, no matter which of the two you would take.
EB doesn’t need to be what it is currently. Many traits have changed. in fact, EB doesn’t even really need to exist at this point, considering how much better WK is. so where does that leave us? We need a condi cleanse in another line other than WS, rangers should be good at getting rid of condis, and I feel like NM is the best place for it.
Why not add a aoe condi-boon convert to the new Invigorating Bond (f2 heal)?
(edited by Zatoichi.1049)
we could also make EB a master and nerf it down to 2 condis removed /10s. put it in nature magic.
I think at this point Ranger has a problem, the developers don’t really seem interested in the profession and it is showing in the general changes that are being brought about.
we could also make EB a master and nerf it down to 2 condis removed /10s. put it in nature magic.
then it would either be replacing evasive purity, or competing against it.
With the amount of discussion going on about Empathic Bond and Wilderness Knowledge they may need thread just for that discuss as it dominating the topic fornearly of two pages and other traits are not getting discussed at all.
true, ill give you that. I just feel like at this point we’ve all seen enough of the “Anet hates us” mentality. It just makes us look like haterz, and I know we can all be better than that.
I don’t really think they hate ranger players, I think that they dislike the profession based on the general limitation inherent in how it was implemented. So they are having to work on something that doesn’t really drawn their interest.
It could be seen as a potential parallel in saying there are probably artist in the department that dislike dealing with the non-human models, but have to work on armor/outfit skins for them anyway as part of their job it doesn’t mean is won’t have a effect on the quality of the work.
I’ve been reading this over the last few days and mulling over all the options .
my opinion is that the class needs a mid tier Adept or master way of clearing condis since (i think they removed evasive purity i didnt see it in the stream)
in this case i believe EB is in the wrong place since if it stayed where it was Every ranger build would need to have the wilderness line for condi clears.
ether move EB reduce its condi transfers to 2 per 10secs to master like it was in the past.
or bring in a trait thats mid tier in a different line so the class is not restricted to condi clears on one line.
can’t say much else till Anet make the Final decisions.
though i strongly disagree with EB and WK being in the same line .
if they did options become
wilderness / Marksman/skirmishing
wilderness / marksman / beastmaster
wilderness / skirmishing / beastmaster
wilderness / skirmishing /nature magic
wilderness / marksman / nature magic
wilderness / nature magic / beastmaster
it’ll become the core of a ranger class though the more i think about it , that is enough options for power based LB’s , sb’s , melee , trappers and beastmasters.
if EB stays where it is , without the Mid tier condi in a different line.
Spec’ing will be difficult or near impossible to get condi clears without Wilderness.
it needs alteast that mid tier condi clear.
We will still need to see what the elite specialization will add to the mix, so it could add a lot or it could be complete trash we won’t know this week.
I think we need to all sit back and wait. I see tons of potential in these changes and have to say I very much like them.
Not only that, but while we’re worried about things like condition removal being only in one traitline again we really have no idea how big of a metashift we’ll see with all the classes changes.
protective ward is very close to being quite good. 6 seconds aoe weakness every 12 seconds is potent, escpecially if you can hit 5 targets. The protection part feels uninspired though.
hell we need condi clear, but instead of clear how about pet and ranger get 3 second resistance instead of the protection?
I think we need to all sit back and wait. I see tons of potential in these changes and have to say I very much like them.
Not only that, but while we’re worried about things like condition removal being only in one traitline again we really have no idea how big of a metashift we’ll see with all the classes changes.
With the proposed changes to poison and burning I can only see the condition focused meta just getting worst.
The developers asked us to theorycraft, look at builds to see if they remain in spirit (really poorly worded where rangers are concerned), and discuss. Which is exactly what we are doing and as a whole we are taking the changes abit better than many of our peers in the other communities where some of the thread are just all ’they’ve ruin it/us/whatever’ or getting bombarded with ‘X is OP’ all the while forgetting that we only were supposed to be seeing the functionality not the numbers in place (as they will be easy part as adjustments go).
I think we need to all sit back and wait. I see tons of potential in these changes and have to say I very much like them.
Not only that, but while we’re worried about things like condition removal being only in one traitline again we really have no idea how big of a metashift we’ll see with all the classes changes.
Technically you are correct that we don’t know how things may change but just sitting back and saying nothing tells the Devs “Everything looks good, please do all that and we’ll be happy.”
Also they specifically asked the community to discuss this stuff on the forums and theorycraft.
protective ward is very close to being quite good. 6 seconds aoe weakness every 12 seconds is potent, escpecially if you can hit 5 targets. The protection part feels uninspired though.
hell we need condi clear, but instead of clear how about pet and ranger get 3 second resistance instead of the protection?
Would it be broken to give the ranger just resistance and the pet both protection and resistance as I don’t see them really addressing the pet doesn’t do well in action based combat (no way to dodge/evade and difficult/lack of precise placement to get out of/stay out of circles-of-don’t-stand-there
I think we need to all sit back and wait. I see tons of potential in these changes and have to say I very much like them.
Not only that, but while we’re worried about things like condition removal being only in one traitline again we really have no idea how big of a metashift we’ll see with all the classes changes.
Technically you are correct that we don’t know how things may change but just sitting back and saying nothing tells the Devs “Everything looks good, please do all that and we’ll be happy.”
Also they specifically asked the community to discuss this stuff on the forums and theorycraft.
I’m just addressing the players who are complaining that their favorite class has been trashed. Maybe they’re right, maybe they’re wrong. I just think we need some patience before we start to lose our tempers.
And on the topic of giving A-net feedback, I do not like how SotF has ended up in the WS traitline. That’s a big no for me and is entirely against what the introduction of the trait was for in the first place (as in, condition removal outside of WS).
I think we need to all sit back and wait. I see tons of potential in these changes and have to say I very much like them.
Not only that, but while we’re worried about things like condition removal being only in one traitline again we really have no idea how big of a metashift we’ll see with all the classes changes.
With the proposed changes to poison and burning I can only see the condition focused meta just getting worst.
The developers asked us to theorycraft, look at builds to see if they remain in spirit (really poorly worded where rangers are concerned), and discuss. Which is exactly what we are doing and as a whole we are taking the changes abit better than many of our peers in the other communities where some of the thread are just all ’they’ve ruin it/us/whatever’ or getting bombarded with ‘X is OP’ all the while forgetting that we only were supposed to be seeing the functionality not the numbers in place (as they will be easy part as adjustments go).
with the removal of off-hand training , thats dagger and Torch condi application reduced and dagger evades less often .
bonfire on current pulses burning for a set duration that is very short so normaly it is perm burning for its duration if the target stands inside it anyway , and as soon as they leave 1sec ticks burning is done.
if the proposed burn stacking is done and it pulses 1sec and lasts 1 sec , it’ll never stack unless you shoot projectiles through it, so it is kinda restricted to the same limits as the old burning .
though shooting projectiles through the bonfire will after the change just extend the damage by refeshing stacks by applying a basic burn that lasts 1sec anyway.
so its not much of a increase or decrease , for bonfires sake .
throw torch might be a issue stacked into bonfire>then into shooting AA’s .
If it is a issue when they test it, they could remove Throw torchs burning and replace with a taunt for 1sec and put some direct damage on it.
taunt keeps them inplace a little longer without the burning stacking too high as then only AA projectiles will be able to apply more than 1 stack.
though this is just a thought to consider.
(edited by Zenos Osgorma.2936)
They could merge Healer’s Celerity with Trapper’s Defense (and they should) leaving a spot in NM open, then move EB to Adept NM, changing it to transfer 1 condition per 5s. That would make it pretty good imo.
with the removal of off-hand training
They may have baseline some/all of the functionality of Off-hand Training into the weapons themselves.
EB doesn’t need to be what it is currently. Many traits have changed. in fact, EB doesn’t even really need to exist at this point, considering how much better WK is. so where does that leave us? We need a condi cleanse in another line other than WS, rangers should be good at getting rid of condis, and I feel like NM is the best place for it.
Why not add a aoe condi-boon convert to the new Invigorating Bond (f2 heal)?
I agree, WK is better and I know traits will change but the most realistic change that Anet will do is to buff Emphatic Bond to just remove conditions. The main point of my argument is that we need another condi removal trait overall to increase build diversity. What kind of trait it is or where it is outside of Wilderness Knowledge is irrelevant in the long run.
I favor the idea of making Invigorating Bond cure conditions on activation. We need more condition CLEANSING. The fact that some of our strongest condition management abilities, Empathic Bond and Signet of Renewal, are designed to transfer the conditions to our pet makes us inherently weaker against conditions than every other profession. The pet is a vital part of our profession. We shouldn’t be forced to sacrifice it to save ourselves just because we’re not running a Survival skill heavy build with the right grandmaster trait.
so buff IB by giving it a condi cleanse too and leave in Nature Magic, remove EB, problem solved?
Personally I prefer changing its name back to SoTF, moving it to where Nature’s Vengeance is, combining Nature’s wrath and bountiful hunter (since they feel too similar anyway) and moving Nature’s vengeance down to fill the hole, then make a new GM for wilderness survival.
Ok going into more detail about Emphatic Bond, which specialization does it fit? Quick answer is none flavorwise and gameplaywise you still have to shoehorn it into one of them. About whether you can’t move it into one specialization because you miss trait X, that’s the point of a choice, each and every one of them should be something which makes you say “I really want that”, it makes the choice important. Some of them might not be good for what you have in mind but the choice should be real.
Current Problem with Wilderness Survival is that you will go there to grab either one since it’s the only specialization with good condition removal so that fact alone forces you to take it, no matter which of the two you would take.
EB doesn’t need to be what it is currently. Many traits have changed. in fact, EB doesn’t even really need to exist at this point, considering how much better WK is. so where does that leave us? We need a condi cleanse in another line other than WS, rangers should be good at getting rid of condis, and I feel like NM is the best place for it.
Why not add a aoe condi-boon convert to the new Invigorating Bond (f2 heal)?
EB is the jack of all traits. If a build doesn’t use Survival skills, the ranger can choose between EB or PM instead of WK.
IB and EB could be combined so that; Your pet draws one condition from you every 5s. When your pet gains a condition, it heals for X in an area around it. 1s ICD on the heal.
One concerned if ranger plays too defensively with these changes there might be backlash as some of community have a poor view of ‘overly’ defensive playstyles not to mention the amount of complaint that will be directed rangers way if it is perceived ‘tougher/more durable/harder-to-kill’ than warrior.
Take a look at the Warrior’s Defense line now, they cannot complain, at all, ever. We definetly need more condi removal, warriors have loads now too.
IB and EB could be combined so that; Your pet draws one condition from you every 5s. When your pet gains a condition, it heals for X in an area around it. 1s ICD on the heal.
Nope. I’m against that idea.
EB is still a useful trait even if you’re not a condi ranger.
Take a look at the Warrior’s Defense line now, they cannot complain, at all, ever. We definetly need more condi removal, warriors have loads now too.
You don’t know the warrior community that well, but that aside I was only using them as the example as they are perceived generally as the toughest profession, and that perception of these thing matter a bit.
One concerned if ranger plays too defensively with these changes there might be backlash as some of community have a poor view of ‘overly’ defensive playstyles not to mention the amount of complaint that will be directed rangers way if it is perceived ‘tougher/more durable/harder-to-kill’ than warrior.
The PVP community don’t want rangers to be competitive in general. Nothing can help that.
I know that they do complain, constantly, but they have no reason to.
so buff IB by giving it a condi cleanse too and leave in Nature Magic, remove EB, problem solved?
I like this. I think something like 2 conditions removed for you and allies, plus the heal. Or even remove the heal.
This combined with SoR would make ranger a stronger condition remover than Shoutbow War.
Shoutbow goes against ANETs own design philosophy for the class (warriors have to rely on others for condi clear) so I would like to see this role move to Ranger.
I dunno if that is their philosophy, take a look at how much condi clear the warrior has. Shoutbow just got another clear on Healing Surge, Mending (more effective above 50% endurance), HS gets Resistance, Restorative Strength, Cleansing Ire, Quick Breathing, Brawlers Recovery, Dogged March, Shrug it off, “Shake it off”, Mobile Strikes, Berserker Stance and Signet of Stamina active. Then you can combine those with soldier/trooper runes and cleanse on weapon swap sigil.
We currently have Brown Bear F2, SoR, Healing Spring, SoTF, EB, Evasive Purity.
(edited by Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582)
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/news/960-class-balance-philosophies/
It was said a long time ago though, so its probably not the official stance any more:
http://dulfy.net/2014/06/13/gw2-june-13-balance-philosophy-dev-livesteam-notes/
Regardless I think that role is better suited to ranger/BM than warrior.
I do agree that we should get that role as we are better suited and warrior doesn’t need any more buffs really.
@Sube Dai They kind of throw that original stance out the window once the spvp meta became more condition focused and the warriors complained interesting note on that is the (if I recall correctly) the design lead for pvp during that time no longer works for ANet so that could also be part of the change in stance.
Back on to the base topic. Trapper Defense needs to be rolled into Trapper’s expertise replacing the radius increase (that should be made baseline). That means new adept level trait needs to exist.
Seems like this topic should’ve been tagged [PVP].. Although since they balance around PVP… I guess it’s appropriate. As I read y’all’s comments I have to constantly remind myself y’all are speaking from a PVP prospective… and since I care not for PVP just how my PVE game is affected by the PVP balancing, well, whatevs as the kids say now-a-days.
IB and EB could be combined so that; Your pet draws one condition from you every 5s. When your pet gains a condition, it heals for X in an area around it. 1s ICD on the heal.
Nope. I’m against that idea.
EB is still a useful trait even if you’re not a condi ranger.
I know you really love it, a lot of rangers do, but I think its pretty clear anet doesn’t want us to have both. so are you saying you are in favor of its current placement?
so buff IB by giving it a condi cleanse too and leave in Nature Magic, remove EB, problem solved?
I would prefer it to be a party wide condi-boon convert, that way we get some a very strong party support option on par with shoutbow war, but yeah, in general, either way, we are striking a nice balance here, not too much condi cleanse if you take both IB and WK, not too little if you only take WK.
Seems like this topic should’ve been tagged [PVP].. Although since they balance around PVP… I guess it’s appropriate. As I read y’all’s comments I have to constantly remind myself y’all are speaking from a PVP prospective… and since I care not for PVP just how my PVE game is affected by the PVP balancing, well, whatevs as the kids say now-a-days.
That is understandable, I try to keep my focus on the game as a whole, but realize that for the time being that speaking in mode neutral tones can hopefully get some of improvements through (though I am admittedly setting my expectation low). If you feel that another thread with less spvp focus would be an addition to the overall discuss feel free to start one, unless they later merge it with this one I think it will reach a similar size if not larger (but could also get stuck with more bickering as it gets larger)
Unfortunately the competitive aspect of the game seems to be what is drawing the interest of the developers that work on skill balance so you can see what that mean for the game.
I just want to point out, that with the upcoming changes to WK and troll unguent becoming a Survival skill, with WK alone; if loaded up with 5 survival skills (and the free sharpening stone proc @ 75%) we can cleanse 12 conditions with an average recharge rate on survival skills being around 30 seconds, whilst having perma fury
if you add an additional 3 cleanses every 10 seconds with EB, were cleansing 21 conditions over the course of 30 seconds.
2 traits to cleanse 21 conditions every 30 seconds on average is basically condition immunity, and I still get one more trait line to go into. And any playstyle, including glassbow, could have access to this.
This is what ANET doesn’t want, and is why they put them together.
This sort of thing might not be totally OP in the current state of the ranger, although I suspect some would argue it is, but certainly would be once the new changes go through.
(edited by Zatoichi.1049)
I just want to point out, that with the upcoming changes to WK and troll unguent becoming a Survival skill, with WK alone; if loaded up with 5 survival skills (and the free sharpening stone proc @ 75%) we can cleanse 12 conditions with an average recharge rate on survival skills being around 30 seconds, whilst having perma fury
if you add an additional 3 cleanses every 10 seconds with EB, were cleansing 21 conditions over the course of 30 seconds.
2 traits to cleanse 21 conditions every 30 seconds on average is basically condition immunity, and I still get one more trait line to go into. And any playstyle, including glassbow, could have access to this.
This is what ANET doesn’t want, and is why they put them together.
This sort of thing might not be totally OP in the current state of the ranger, although I suspect some would argue it is, but certainly would be once the new changes go through.
I’m not sure that they are really checking up with the person/team working on the ranger changes nearly enough, I appeared to me that (either they got better at acting surprised or) they only kind of glanced at the notes before starting and were kind of blindsided by some of the changes that were not “staying the same”. The reaction to the Most Dangerous Game stands out to me in that regard.
Here’s the thing, from a PvP standpoint, that I think people are really forgetting, which is that the hindering factors in a PvP environment have never been tied to the ability to survive.
Every single issue we have ever had in PvP stems from team utility and how we deal damage. I see that spirits are being changed to be immobile, so if they aren’t massively improved in some way, that pretty much kills the most team oriented build available. If traps aren’t improved considerably, trap builds won’t compete over other condition builds on other classes either.
Shouts really aren’t good, and without revamps, will never be good for PvP, and so now, especially with the previewed changes, rangers are pretty much shoehorned into Survival and Signets, because there really isn’t a valuable reason being offered to even run anything else so far.
So ultimately, it really won’t be that any ranger builds are bad. As a matter of fact, every build to some degree gets pretty significantly improved. But the improvements all occur in areas that weren’t previously holding us out of PvP meta. Our power builds lack the ability, as far as we’ve seen, to bring as much utility (outside of self utility) as other classes power builds. No real lockdown abilities (comparatively), limited AoE, lack of boon removal, lack of specific boon application, lack of team wide cleansing/functionality/etc (there might be some niche role with fury that has become available, but that isn’t really a unique function either). These are all things that matter significantly at a top tier level.
For condition builds, again, unless traps and the weapons get some sort of massive revamp, we lack the condition spam and AoE application that all other effective condition builds on other classes have, not to mention that in general, shoutbow, which received no nerfs whatsoever, will continue to be holding pure condition builds out of the meta because they get hardcountered.
Don’t get me wrong, all of the changes for the most part were changes in the right direction, and we certainly got more than other classes received, at least so far.
@Jcbroe The issue here is that they seem currently set in stone on the ranger being primarily a single target (ranged) focused profession with limit AoE supplements through stitutional weapon skill/utiltiy. So some of the limitation that are keeping the profession from top tier are there by design.
Not affiliated with ArenaNet or NCSOFT. No support is provided.
All assets, page layout, visual style belong to ArenaNet and are used solely to replicate the original design and preserve the original look and feel.
Contact /u/e-scrape-artist on reddit if you encounter a bug.