Guild Wars 2

Hello folks,

So in light of the recent GS buffs, I have been finding myself using it a lot more often. However, SB is currently the reigning ranged single-target DPS king of the Rangers. In today’s test, I wanted to compare the single-target DPS of the SB and the GS.

Methodology

My Ranger is completely untraited. She will be equipped with no amulet, PvP Berserker’s amulet, and a PvP Rabid amulet. The pet will be eating popcorn the entire time.

She will attack a Heavy Target Golem in the Mists and record the time it takes for it to die. Each run was done 3 times, and the average was taken. The DPS numbers were calculated assuming a Golem HP of 10,000.

For the Shortbow, the attack pattern is as follows:

CrossfireCrossfireCrossfireCrossfireCrossfireCrossfireCrossfireCrossfire etc.

The shortbow runs were done with the Ranger attacking from the front (no bleed) and attacking from the back (6 stacks of bleed)

For the Greatsword, the attack pattern is as follows:

Maul -> 1 (x9) -> Maul -> 1 (x9) etc.

Preliminary tests showed that using swoop did not increase DPS significantly, so it was skipped over.

Anyways, to the results!

Results, Discussion, and Analysis

No Amulet
Greatsword: 38.95s 257 DPS
SB Front: 53.45s 187 DPS
SB Back: 28.5 s 351 DPS (Bleed: 164 DPS, or 47% of DPS) (36 % more DPS than GS)

Berserkers
Greatsword: 18.1s 552 DPS
SB Front: 22.2s 450 DPS
SB Back: 16s 625 DPS (Bleed: 174 DPS, or 28% of DPS) (13 % more DPS than GS)

Rabid
Greatsword: 27s 364 DPS
SB Front: 46.3s 217 DPS
SB Back: 18.8s 536 DPS (Bleed: 320 DPS, or 60% of DPS) (47 % more DPS than GS)

- The results seem very obvious. The more power/crit you have, the more “viable” GS becomes compared to the SB, since the majority of GS damage is direct damage. However, since crit damage is capped in PvP, I was never able to reach the point where GS damage is on par with optimal SB damage.

By taking the measured numbers and making a few assumptions, we can calculate this point.

Let A be the damage multiplier of direct damage, which is a function of power, precision, and critical damage. Let GSdps be the DPS of a GS, with no stats at all. Let SBdps be the direct damage of a SB, with no stats. Let Bleed be the dps caused by the bleed.

Assume that GSdps = 257, and assume this is all direct damage (not true, but assume for simplicity’s sake.)
Assume that SBdps = 187
Assume that Bleed = 170

We have the equation:

A * GSdps = A * SBdps + Bleed

Solving for A, we get

A = 2.44

So is a damage multiplier of 2.44 feasible? Lets see what the damage multiplier for a full berserker’s set in PvE is.

1003 power, 697 precision, 78 crit damage.

Won’t write the exact formula here (can post if people want it), but with a full Zerker gear in PvE, you achieve a damage multiplier of 3.02.

Which means that, in PvE, depending on your stat, you may very well do more damage with a GS than with a SB!

Thoughts

-The usual disclaimers. A bunch of assumptions were made in here, and this does not take into account the fact that GS is melee and SB is ranged. In melee, you’ll be dodging a lot, in ranged, you’ll be getting that “Obstructed” “Out of Ranged” message. So not exact.

-In PvE, for a full zerker ranger, a GS seems do more single-target DPS than a SB, even with optimal SB positioning (full bleed stacks.)

-With a Condition build, SB will do more damage than GS. This is pretty obvious.

-The threshold is most likely not accurate. I assumed all GS damage is direct, but it’s not. It’s hard to calculate what % of GS damage is from the bleed, but threshold nevertheless most likely is higher than the 2.44 calculated.

-One thing to note is if you use a on-crit sigil, it will crit a lot more often on an SB than the GS.

Previous Research

Ranger Melee Weapon DPS Test
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Ranger-Melee-Weapon-DPS-Tests/first

Ranger SB vs Warrior Rifle DPS Test
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Ranger-Shortbow-vs-Warrior-Rifle-DPS-tests/first

Ranger SB vs Ranger LB DPS Calculations
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Shortbow-vs-Longbow-Damage-Calculations/first

doesnt 1h sword out damage GS though?

Azure.8670:

doesnt 1h sword out damage GS though?

Yes, it does.

Basically, SB is just good as a backup weapon imo. ive been running with GS Axe/Horn and switching to GS Sword/Horn. Block, Evades, and almost permanent Fury are just too hard to ignore. SB is good and all but like the LB its just situational imo.

There is also the possibility for a permanent poison stack on the shortbow I find it hard to believe the greatsword can match shortbow on single target even if you assume 0 condition damage.

Manekk.6981:

There is also the possibility for a permanent poison stack on the shortbow I find it hard to believe the greatsword can match shortbow on single target even if you assume 0 condition damage.

Interestingly, using SB #2 is actually a loss in DPS. If you use it at point-blank range, it is a slight increase in DPS. I didn’t include it because hitting it in melee every single time is a tad unrealistic, and since the DPS increase is minor, I didn’t count it for simplicity’s sake (Just like swoop).

Ursan.7846:

Manekk.6981:

There is also the possibility for a permanent poison stack on the shortbow I find it hard to believe the greatsword can match shortbow on single target even if you assume 0 condition damage.

Interestingly, using SB #2 is actually a loss in DPS. If you use it at point-blank range, it is a slight increase in DPS. I didn’t include it because hitting it in melee every single time is a tad unrealistic, and since the DPS increase is minor, I didn’t count it for simplicity’s sake (Just like swoop).

It’s a definite and clear dps gain aslong as all 5 arrows hit it’s a gain both in physical and condition damage, if it has to be point blank depends on your target many bosses are quite big and can be shot from far away with all 5 arrows hitting, you often hear this thing that it would be a dps loss I assume it it must come from someone not understanding how the poison volley works and uses it on a golem from 1200 away, it’s really easy to see what a big gain it is if you consider that the physical damage from 5 arrows is larger than from crossfire so you end up trading a single 3second bleed for 10s poison, it’s a no brainer.

Manekk.6981:

It’s a definite and clear dps gain aslong as all 5 arrows hit it’s a gain both in physical and condition damage, if it has to be point blank depends on your target many bosses are quite big and can be shot from far away with all 5 arrows hitting, you often hear this thing that it would be a dps loss I assume it it must come from someone not understanding how the poison volley works and uses it on a golem from 1200 away, it’s really easy to see what a big gain it is if you consider that the physical damage from 5 arrows is larger than from crossfire so you end up trading a single 3second bleed for 10s poison, it’s a no brainer.

Just to give you how much dps is increased by, it is 28.5s from back, with nothing but Crossfire, and 26.9s if I use volley point blank.

It’s a very minor increase. The reason why the increase is minor is because the animation for poison volley takes about a second to cast, and in that second you’re missing out on 1.5~1.9 ish Crossfires.

Again, since the difference is so minor, I just ignored it for simplicity’s sake.

If they would just buff the wimpy greatsword autoattack, GS wouldn’t need so much propping up by gear.

Also, why is a Berserker PvE set 78% crit damage? I got 100% crit dmg on my mesmer with ruby orbs, and food adds in another 10% for 110% crit damage.

Also, have you run tests for rapid fire on berserker stats? I keep hearing Crossfire matches rapidfire, but I simply do not see it testing both weapons. Yes, for a 5 sec channel, compared to blurred frenzy or 100b or necro axe #2 rapid fire is wimpy, but on a berserker set on my ranger with around 100% crit damage I am hitting 9-10k rapidfires, and I’m just not seeing the numbers for the shortbow in 5 seconds landing 800-900 crits per crossfire matching rapid fire within a 5 sec time window.

I know longbow sustained is pretty crappy thanks to the (surprise, same as GS and axe mainhand) terrible autoattack, but it frontloads damage extremely well with an opening 20 stacks of vulnerability that prop the jaguar and my rapidfire, so it seems like you would use the longbow for hunter’s shot>rapidfire into a switch to greatsword, and use barrage occassionaly for aoe control.

Also, how does the mainhand sword stack up vs. GS post GS buff? How large is the gap still? Mainhand sword may do more sustained but it sure as hell doesn’t have an ability that crits for 5-10k in berserker gear (5k is my average crit without using signets or might stacks), so at the very least the greatsword gets to claim a small niche in burst capacity.

I’m just so bored of shortbow #1 spam….. it’s not good design and quite frankly I wish it was revamped alongside many weapons to contain more rotational aspects.

For pure, maximum PvE DPS would 2 GS auto hits>maul>2 GS auto hits>swoop>2 gs auto hits>maul repeat not be way better than letting the full chain hit?

Also, would that be possible?

Writetyper.1985:

For pure, maximum PvE DPS would 2 GS auto hits>maul>2 GS auto hits>swoop>2 gs auto hits>maul repeat not be way better than letting the full chain hit?

Also, would that be possible?

How are you getting 2 autos in between every maul? If you’re taking the trait in WS you’re probably not maximizing DPS anyways, since that would come at the cost of taking from the power line or the crit dmg/prec line or your BM line.

And on berserker gear the returns for stacking power/prec/critdmg are exponential.

Ursan.7846:

Manekk.6981:

It’s a definite and clear dps gain aslong as all 5 arrows hit it’s a gain both in physical and condition damage, if it has to be point blank depends on your target many bosses are quite big and can be shot from far away with all 5 arrows hitting, you often hear this thing that it would be a dps loss I assume it it must come from someone not understanding how the poison volley works and uses it on a golem from 1200 away, it’s really easy to see what a big gain it is if you consider that the physical damage from 5 arrows is larger than from crossfire so you end up trading a single 3second bleed for 10s poison, it’s a no brainer.

Just to give you how much dps is increased by, it is 28.5s from back, with nothing but Crossfire, and 26.9s if I use volley point blank.

It’s a very minor increase. The reason why the increase is minor is because the animation for poison volley takes about a second to cast, and in that second you’re missing out on 1.5~1.9 ish Crossfires.

Again, since the difference is so minor, I just ignored it for simplicity’s sake.

You can ignore it for simplicity’s sake if you like that’s a diffrent matter but it’s there and it’s an increase in every scenario here the biggest being from the front for obvious reasons, I just tested it myself I had it like this:

No amulet
Front 40s vs 53s
Back 25s vs 28s

Berserker
Front 18s vs 22s
Back 15s vs 16s

Rabid
Front 29s vs 46s
back 15s vs 19s

One should probably do this with the steady weapons aswell to get rid of the variations but regardless you can easily tell using poison volley wins out in every scenario and by quite alot too considering how short this test is and it will of course increase the higher condition damage you have likewise the gain in damage will be bigger over time the longer a fight goes on.

You’re right about one thing though and that is the animation steals a fair bit of the potential for this one because the increase should be even larger than it is.

Zenith.7301:

Also, why is a Berserker PvE set 78% crit damage? I got 100% crit dmg on my mesmer with ruby orbs, and food adds in another 10% for 110% crit damage.

I’m assuming you’re talking about Ruby Orbs on armor. 78% is with armor + trinkets + Ruby Orbs on trinkets, but no Ruby Orbs on armor. You make a good point though, you can further increase that “damage multiplier” even higher with ruby orbs on armor and ascended gear.

Zenith.7301:

Also, have you run tests for rapid fire on berserker stats? I keep hearing Crossfire matches rapidfire, but I simply do not see it testing both weapons. Yes, for a 5 sec channel, compared to blurred frenzy or 100b or necro axe #2 rapid fire is wimpy, but on a berserker set on my ranger with around 100% crit damage I am hitting 9-10k rapidfires, and I’m just not seeing the numbers for the shortbow in 5 seconds landing 800-900 crits per crossfire matching rapid fire within a 5 sec time window.

Direct damage from Crossfire smaller than Rapid Fire.

So same thing. The more crit dmg/power you have, the bigger the difference. With a pure Zerker set I imagine the difference is quite significant. Just looking at my Longbow/SB calculation numbers, Rapid Fire does 6% more direct DPS than Crossfire.

It’s calculated of course. It’s really hard to actually test the DPS. But my calculations show they’re pretty similar.

Zenith.7301:

Also, how does the mainhand sword stack up vs. GS post GS buff? How large is the gap still? Mainhand sword may do more sustained but it sure as hell doesn’t have an ability that crits for 5-10k in berserker gear (5k is my average crit without using signets or might stacks), so at the very least the greatsword gets to claim a small niche in burst capacity.

Not sure. Will be an interesting test, for sure.

Manekk.6981:

One should probably do this with the steady weapons aswell to get rid of the variations

The reason why I don’t use steady weapons is because they weapon damage is incredibly low, and any tests done with steady weapons will be incredibly biased towards condition damage (since it is not affected by weapon damage). That’s why I do 3 runs and average it. I can post the standard deviations if you want, but they are quite small.

Manekk.6981:

but regardless you can easily tell using poison volley wins out in every scenario and by quite alot too considering how short this test is and it will of course increase the higher condition damage you have likewise the gain in damage will be bigger over time the longer a fight goes on.

Well yes. I don’t argue that there’s no increase in DPS. I just didn’t include it because it makes the calculations for Crossfire’s direct damage and non-direct damage impossible.

your DPS tests are misguided, it looks like you didn’t do enough of them and take an average, the numbers are off quite a bit.

Scootabuser.4915:

your DPS tests are misguided, it looks like you didn’t do enough of them and take an average, the numbers are off quite a bit.

Hm. Mind telling me what you mean by misguided? What are my numbers off from?

I can update the number with averages of 5 runs if you want. Or I can post the standard deviations Just from the 3 runs. The variations were quite small, which is why I stuck with 3 runs rather than 5 runs.

Regardless though, even allowing some variation, I imagine my conclusion still holds. As Zenith pointed out, you can achieve a damage multiplier of much higher than 3 considering ascended gear/ruby orbs. The threshold calculated is 2.44. Even allowing for a generous error of ~20%, the conclusion still holds that in full zerker gear, GS will out damage an SB.

Writetyper.1985:

For pure, maximum PvE DPS would 2 GS auto hits>maul>2 GS auto hits>swoop>2 gs auto hits>maul repeat not be way better than letting the full chain hit?

Also, would that be possible?

Swoop doesn’t significantly increase DPS compared to autoattacking when you already melee a target. The tooltip is wrong and the slightly higher damage isn’t worth the longer animation time compared to autoattacks.

I would have liked to see a GS traited for cooldowns though. It is perfectly possible to Maul → 1 (x6) then which should add quite a bit. Overall there are only few circumstances where SB will deal more damage and obviously there is no question when cleaving on additional targets with GS. This seems perfectly balanced to me just because you take a higher risk in melee range and have to stick to the targtet.

if your interested in theorycrafting ursan i’ve been looking for a partner that can help since it’s quite time consuming

And the reason why it’s misguided, is because it’s a golem test. If you look at the equation, Damage/Time, (damage you deal to the golem / the time it takes to kill it)

you see that its actually exponential, as you increase your damage, the time also decreases. Because of this, if you compare a build that kills in 20 seconds, and a build that kills in 40 seconds, the DPS of the 20 second build wont be x2, but x4 of the other build.

It’s why warriors, with their 15kDPS in 10 seconds burst, were accredited to having high dps, even though they have one of the lowest among classes.

…..huh? Warriors have low dps? That’s news considering mainhand axe warrior has by far the highest sustained damage in game and can still bring utility to a group and doesn’t lose burst capacity.

I don’t know why people keep obsessing over GS warriors when even if they nerfed 100b, mainhand axe warriors would still reign supreme in PvE.

The problem with warriors is that their autoattack damage is outrageously higher than other classes, and mainhand axe attacks pretty fast to top it off.

While I understand testing was done in this matter to simplifie things. Correct me if i’m wrong but arent damage modifiers the thing that makes build work better and those dealing with direct damage better than those for condition. Also things like attack of oppertunity from signet of the hunt when traited; way better on swoop and maul then anything on the short bow.

Scootabuser.4915:

iAnd the reason why it’s misguided, is because it’s a golem test. If you look at the equation, Damage/Time, (damage you deal to the golem / the time it takes to kill it)

you see that its actually exponential, as you increase your damage, the time also decreases. Because of this, if you compare a build that kills in 20 seconds, and a build that kills in 40 seconds, the DPS of the 20 second build wont be x2, but x4 of the other build.

No, you’re completely wrong. DPS is calculated by Damage Done/Time. Damage Done is a constant in this case since the target is the same. So if Build A kills Target X in 20 seconds and Build B kills Target X in 40 seconds, Build A does x2 the DPS compared to Build B.

I suggest you review what you just said.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

While I understand testing was done in this matter to simplifie things. Correct me if i’m wrong but arent damage modifiers the thing that makes build work better and those dealing with direct damage better than those for condition. Also things like attack of oppertunity from signet of the hunt when traited; way better on swoop and maul then anything on the short bow.

Yes. The thing to note is that damage modifiers also affect Crossfire’s direct damage too, and Crossfire’s direct damage is quite significant due to its fast rate of fire. This is why I calculated the break-even point.

And yes, things like Moment of Clarity will give an advantage to GS.

Zenith.7301:

…..huh? Warriors have low dps? That’s news considering mainhand axe warrior has by far the highest sustained damage in game and can still bring utility to a group and doesn’t lose burst capacity.

I don’t know why people keep obsessing over GS warriors when even if they nerfed 100b, mainhand axe warriors would still reign supreme in PvE.

The problem with warriors is that their autoattack damage is outrageously higher than other classes, and mainhand axe attacks pretty fast to top it off.

Warriors Axe is easy to use, so APPLIED DPS is usually higher in groups, leading people the false notion that warriors have higher dps, when in reality, it’s just that MORE warriors have dps.

Also warriors are THE offensive buff class, fury and might to the entire party is AMAZING, with the party buffs, the warrior does more damage then another class without the buffs, but if you have 1 warrior and 1 thief, and the warrior is buffing the thief, the thief will out-dps the warrior.

Ursan.7846:

Scootabuser.4915:

iAnd the reason why it’s misguided, is because it’s a golem test. If you look at the equation, Damage/Time, (damage you deal to the golem / the time it takes to kill it)

you see that its actually exponential, as you increase your damage, the time also decreases. Because of this, if you compare a build that kills in 20 seconds, and a build that kills in 40 seconds, the DPS of the 20 second build wont be x2, but x4 of the other build.

No, you’re completely wrong. DPS is calculated by Damage Done/Time. Damage Done is a constant in this case since the target is the same. So if Build A kills Target X in 20 seconds and Build B kills Target X in 40 seconds, Build A does x2 the DPS compared to Build B.

I suggest you review what you just said.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

While I understand testing was done in this matter to simplifie things. Correct me if i’m wrong but arent damage modifiers the thing that makes build work better and those dealing with direct damage better than those for condition. Also things like attack of oppertunity from signet of the hunt when traited; way better on swoop and maul then anything on the short bow.

Yes. The thing to note is that damage modifiers also affect Crossfire’s direct damage too, and Crossfire’s direct damage is quite significant due to its fast rate of fire. This is why I calculated the break-even point.

And yes, things like Moment of Clarity will give an advantage to GS.

I worded it poorly, my point is that the golem test, favors burst builds, because the duration of the test is limited to how fast it takes to kill it, the faster you do more damage, the less time it takes to kill the golem. I can pop thieves guild (180sec cooldown) and do WAY more dps then a warrior, but it gives an inaccurate number since the trial is less then 180secs long.

Scootabuser.4915:

I worded it poorly, my point is that the golem test, favors burst builds, because the duration of the test is limited to how fast it takes to kill it, the faster you do more damage, the less time it takes to kill the golem. I can pop thieves guild (180sec cooldown) and do WAY more dps then a warrior, but it gives an inaccurate number since the trial is less then 180secs long.

Irrelevant to these tests, since the time-scales of the times is took to kill a Golem is way larger than the longest cooldown I use (Maul, 6s)

In addition, what you say still doesn’t make anything “exponential.” It’ll lead to misleading results, yes, but exponential? Unless you’re using that word figuratively (which you weren’t, since you said x2/x4 in your post) you’re wrong.

Yeah your right, sorry I don’t take the gw2 forums seriously at ALL, i don’t even care about what I say or type. I’m giving you a bad first impression.

I do spreadsheets on gw2 guru thats where I post all my real work.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/82421-theorycrafting-rangers-out-dps-warriors/

Too many egg heads in the Ranger community. Does knowing any of this actually help you in the field?

It’s good to know. Its better to Do.

KensaiZen.3740:

Too many egg heads in the Ranger community. Does knowing any of this actually help you in the field?

It’s good to know. Its better to Do.

Does reading this thread magically make you better? No, I imagine it doesn’t.

Is this some kind of definitive conclusion about the effectiveness of these weapons? No, it’s not.

However, it’s still interesting to see that after the recent GS buffs, GS does very competitive damage compared to Ranger’s ranged options. It’s something nice to know.

Ursan.7846:

KensaiZen.3740:

Too many egg heads in the Ranger community. Does knowing any of this actually help you in the field?

It’s good to know. Its better to Do.

Does reading this thread magically make you better? No, I imagine it doesn’t.

Is this some kind of definitive conclusion about the effectiveness of these weapons? No, it’s not.

However, it’s still interesting to see that after the recent GS buffs, GS does very competitive damage compared to Ranger’s ranged options. It’s something nice to know.

To be fair, greatsword always did at least 30% more then ranged weapons, ALL ranged weapons do 25-50% less damage then the classes melee counterpart, this is true across all classes.

Scootabuser.4915:

To be fair, greatsword always did at least 30% more then ranged weapons

That’s false. Using the numbers here, at a damage multiplier of 3.04 (Berserker armor, Exotic Berserker Trinkets, Ruby Orbs on Trinkets) the GS will only do 5% more damage than the SB, counting the bleed. And this is after the Maul buff. You can go ahead and calculate this yourself. The GS in no way does that much more damage than the SB.

I’m not sure where you’re pulling this 30% stuff from.

Ursan.7846:

Scootabuser.4915:

To be fair, greatsword always did at least 30% more then ranged weapons

That’s false. Using the numbers here, at a damage multiplier of 3.04 (Berserker armor, Exotic Berserker Trinkets, Ruby Orbs on Trinkets) the GS will only do 5% more damage than the SB, counting the bleed. And this is after the Maul buff. You can go ahead and calculate this yourself. The GS in no way does that much more damage than the SB.

I’m not sure where you’re pulling this 30% stuff from.

maul was barely buffed, are you saying that the buff increased the builds DPS by 25%?

And that’s straight out of the words of the devs, ALL ranged weapons carry FAR less DPS due to the inherit defense granted by ranged weapons, rangers being no exception despite popular opinion

just for kittens and giggles though, when i get back tonight I’ll run all the numbers pre and post patch

Scootabuser.4915:

maul was barely buffed, are you saying that the buff increased the builds DPS by 25%?

No. I never said that. You should try re-reading what I’m saying.

Scootabuser.4915:

And that’s straight out of the words of the devs, ALL ranged weapons carry FAR less DPS due to the inherit defense granted by ranged weapons, rangers being no exception despite popular opinion

That is false by contradiction. There are examples of melee weapons that do similar or sometimes even less DPS than ranged options. Ranger GS/SB is one good example. Guardian Mace/Scepter is another one. Hence your statement that “All ranged weapons do far less DPS than all melee weapons” is false.

Gonna do guardian Mace vs guardian scepter after hunter shortbow/GS, been meaning to do in depth stuff on the guardian, will let you know when im finished

Zenith.7301:

If they would just buff the wimpy greatsword autoattack, GS wouldn’t need so much propping up by gear.

They have to balance the pet too.
At the moment there is no reason to not grab an offensive pet short of going ‘semi offensive’ with a canine for its fantastic CCs.

That is the problem.
If dps pets actually were a loss for the ranger, meaning if more defensive pets gave better control/survivability, then letting the weapon itself deal more dmg would be fine.

The devs would have to make pets more controllable though for that to really work well, so its probably never going to happen and greatsword probably won’t be worth going really offensive on.

Scootabuser.4915:

Gonna do guardian Mace vs guardian scepter after hunter shortbow/GS, been meaning to do in depth stuff on the guardian, will let you know when im finished

I will let you know right now that Scepter (2 → 11111 2→ 1111) does significantly more dps than Mace (2→ 111 111 111 → 2 →111 111 111, or 111 111 111)

Seriously though, you should actually test stuff before you make bold claims (all melee weapons does way more damage than all ranged weapons. Obviously not true).

Here ya go, pet bleeds i added into the DPS for the ability.

Pre patch I’m getting 59% higher DPS with the GS then the shortbow, all bleeds traits kitten taken into account.

Areana net did this on purpose, and you’ll see when i finish guardian mace. There are no exceptions to this rule, even a dagger necro out-DPS a specter/staff condition necro. And I have proven this, for Thief, Hunter, Warrior, and Engineer (although they don’t have any melee weapons except toolkit which does out DPS grenades if you DONT count vulnerability, which is stupid of course you count vuln, so i guess engineer grenades would be the one exception so far.)

Mesmers necros and guardians soon to come I promise <3

And if youd like me to email these spreadsheets so you can play around with them I can

Scootabuser.4915:

Here ya go, I took the pet DPS out of the pet equations i originally had, and just threw them into the activated ability to show what DPS they do to compare JUST the weapons.

Pre patch I’m getting 59% higher DPS with the GS then the shortbow, all bleeds traits kitten taken into account.

Uh.

Did you even bother doing actual tests and verifying that your models are accurate? In all my experiences doing these tests 60% higher damage on GS than the SB sounds highly inaccurate.

ONE LAST THING

The SB is extremely forgiving on that flanking bleed, its like a 315degree thing. Wish backstab was like this :<

Ursan.7846:

Scootabuser.4915:

Here ya go, I took the pet DPS out of the pet equations i originally had, and just threw them into the activated ability to show what DPS they do to compare JUST the weapons.

Pre patch I’m getting 59% higher DPS with the GS then the shortbow, all bleeds traits kitten taken into account.

Uh.

Did you even bother doing actual tests and verifying that your models are accurate? In all my experiences doing these tests 60% higher damage on GS than the SB sounds highly inaccurate.

Yes, the ability cast times are accurate, and the damage per swings are accurate.

Scootabuser.4915:

Yes, the ability cast times are accurate, and the damage per swings are accurate.

Not what I mean. Did you actually test this?

You can theorycraft all you want, but until you actually verify that your models are accurate, no one is going to take your theories seriously.

Just for example, look at your cast times for Maul and GS Auto.

0.825s for Maul, 1.71875s for an Auto chain.

It takes about ~15s to do 5 auto-attack chains and 2 mauls. (Maul -> 111 111 111 -> Maul -> 111 111)

Yet using your numbers, it should only take 10.2 seconds.

That’s a huge discrepancy between numbers you report and numbers in the real world. Time it yourself, because I find it impossible to reproduce the numbers in your spreadsheet.

Ursan.7846:

Scootabuser.4915:

Yes, the ability cast times are accurate, and the damage per swings are accurate.

Not what I mean. Did you actually test this?

You can theorycraft all you want, but until you actually verify that your models are accurate, no one is going to take your theories seriously.

All of the cast times are based on fraps/sonyvegas accurate to +-.02 seconds
All of the damage is based on the same formulas the game uses for damage.
Yes, the models are verified if you whack a 2600 golem with your GS, and dont crit, the total damage ~equal the number under damage. Crit chance and traits and all those things are just math.

If your asking If I did “golem” or “veteran giant” tests. No, those are the tests you did.

My spreadsheets are a mix of mathematically derived data, and practical in game data.

Ursan.7846:

Scootabuser.4915:

Yes, the ability cast times are accurate, and the damage per swings are accurate.

Not what I mean. Did you actually test this?

You can theorycraft all you want, but until you actually verify that your models are accurate, no one is going to take your theories seriously.

Just for example, look at your cast times for Maul and GS Auto.

0.825s for Maul, 1.71875s for an Auto chain.

It takes about ~15s to do 5 auto-attack chains and 2 mauls. (Maul -> 111 111 111 -> Maul -> 111 111)

Yet using your numbers, it should only take 10.2 seconds.

That’s a huge discrepancy between numbers you report and numbers in the real world. Time it yourself, because I find it impossible to reproduce the numbers in your spreadsheet.

The cast times have been modified by quickness. You find the average effectiveness of quickness per second, and apply it to all the cast-times.

6% Pre-Patch
13% Post Patch

There we go, these numbers are MUCH more consistent.

See working together is totally the way to go.

If you Include pets:

4% Pre Patch
7% Post Patch

Scootabuser.4915:

The cast times have been modified by quickness. You find the average effectiveness of quickness per second, and apply it to all the cast-times.

6% Pre-Patch
13% Post Patch

There we go, these numbers are MUCH more consistent.

See working together is totally the way to go.

If you Include pets:

4% Pre Patch
7% Post Patch

You realize 10s vs 15s is a 50% difference in real vs calculated numbers. Quickness comes no where close in explaining that difference.

EDIT: Regardless. You’re still wrong. Ranger SB/GS may be not the best comparison since the two weapons will do more/less damage depending on stat distribution. But Guardian Mace/Scepter is a pretty definite example of a ranged weapon doing significantly more DPS than a melee weapon.

I’ve got a 1.2 cast time for maul, and a 2.5 cast time for auto attack chain.

Pet swapping Quickness is 2/16 seconds, the Utility is 5/60. It Increases your attack speed by 1.5. So you get .3125quicknesseffectivnesspersecond. Which doesn’t mean much.

But, if you take 1-.3125, you get .6875, which you then multiply to the cast times, to get the numbers you see on my spreadsheet.

So, lets just say your JUST auto attacking for a second.

Every auto attack takes 2.5 seconds. Quickness is active 20.8% of the time. Quickness increases attack speed by a factor of 1.5 (150%). So multiply 20.8% * 150% and you get 31.25%.

32.25% * 2.5 Seconds = 1.71875 seconds.

EDIT: Maybe your right about scepter, I havn’t tested it like I said, Secepter being mostly a single target, and mace being cleave might effect that, also mace has a significant amount of healing and support. So it would be unorthodox but not unheard of.

You guys seem to be all over the place, you are welcome to download my spreadsheet and look at the cast time and damage modifiers if you want.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3A3Op-Hj3dOUkJRU0xvcng5ZWc/edit

Just switch to the ranger tab.

Puandro.3245:

You guys seem to be all over the place, you are welcome to download my spreadsheet and look at the cast time and damage modifiers if you want.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3A3Op-Hj3dOUkJRU0xvcng5ZWc/edit

Just switch to the ranger tab.

alot of them are copy pasted off that wiki and are wrong :<
also that is one giant clusterkitten of spreadsheet

Pretty much confirms the general consensus that the GS is a power weapon, but now we have actual proof. I’m not sure full berserkers and a greatsword is a good mix though.

Anyway, adding to the compilation thread! (with the new renamed title!)

EDIT: removed quote and reply to quote… i shouldn’t reply to stuff when i’m half asleep…

Golem test is useful to a point. golem testing is affected by users ablility, framerate and internet connection.

Mathmatical calculation are also useful to a point. mathmatical calculation may reflect what isnt actuallly possible because of minor inacceracies or because to many thing are assumed.

As a whole melee weapons do have more damage, but acceratly comparing a damage weapon to condition weapon seem to be proving difficult.

Just as most of you assume the sb has better dps than the Lb because you lack the patients to calculate the bleed. The lb has better dps then the sb when used a max range no you can debate whether you can stay at max range or not that is another issue.

There is also a problem when using melee vs range for the rangers. The ranger melee weapons have a defensive componet in thier attack. So will for testing purpose you may have chosen not to use maul or swoop because you thought the cast time slow dps. Using these skill at the right moment may cause the auto attack chain to reset rather then using the defensive attack. I’m just saying both calculation and phyical testing are required.

But with all things consider a video showing you killing a golem in x seconds with x weapons in xx time is alot easier to for most people to understand.

Also understand that base weapon proformance is different from traited proformance and that can still be difference from combat proformance.

Scootabuser.4915:

Puandro.3245:

You guys seem to be all over the place, you are welcome to download my spreadsheet and look at the cast time and damage modifiers if you want.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B3A3Op-Hj3dOUkJRU0xvcng5ZWc/edit

Just switch to the ranger tab.

alot of them are copy pasted off that wiki and are wrong :<
also that is one giant clusterkitten of spreadsheet

Actually the wiki copied it off my spreedsheet. It’s not really hard to use.

Use the “classes” spreadsheet to set up your class/gear/spec and then click the “ranger” tab and add traits if you wish to.

Serraphin Storm.2369:

Golem test is useful to a point. golem testing is affected by users ablility, framerate and internet connection.

Mathmatical calculation are also useful to a point. mathmatical calculation may reflect what isnt actuallly possible because of minor inacceracies or because to many thing are assumed.

As a whole melee weapons do have more damage, but acceratly comparing a damage weapon to condition weapon seem to be proving difficult.

Just as most of you assume the sb has better dps than the Lb because you lack the patients to calculate the bleed. The lb has better dps then the sb when used a max range no you can debate whether you can stay at max range or not that is another issue.

There is also a problem when using melee vs range for the rangers. The ranger melee weapons have a defensive componet in thier attack. So will for testing purpose you may have chosen not to use maul or swoop because you thought the cast time slow dps. Using these skill at the right moment may cause the auto attack chain to reset rather then using the defensive attack. I’m just saying both calculation and phyical testing are required.

But with all things consider a video showing you killing a golem in x seconds with x weapons in xx time is alot easier to for most people to understand.

Also understand that base weapon proformance is different from traited proformance and that can still be difference from combat proformance.

Crossfire does more dps than Longrange shot counting only the physical damage on any fight lasting longer than 15s if the longbow is traited then I assume a few seconds more, whether or not the other longbow skills can make it out dps the shortbow with conditions aswell I don’t know but I doubt that.