Guild Wars 2

Hello everyone,

First of all: I am sure there have been other posts like this before, so I am sorry if I bring this up right now.(I’ll delete this one if you can provide me with another post) Please also don’t see this as a hate post that ranger is too overpowered in general or something. I am just wondering what you think about this.

Right now Rapid Fire deals tons of damage on a 10 second cooldown (8 when traited right?). On a Light Golem it with power ranger it deals over half its HP, with not even every hit being a critical hit. Because Longbow is ranged it can stay at a nice range without being afraid to be targeted. (Some of those spots are the pillars in Spirit Watch or at the sides of the mid point at Temple of the Silent Storm).

I must say that 1 vs 1 Power Ranger is strong, but not too overpowered or something (I can beat it on my thief if I try my best) and in sPvP I basically only see two builds: Condi Ranger and Power Ranger, but I feel like ranger always has been a bit under the lader.

So to the point: I think Rapid Fire need to be changed because of the following reasons:

- Does way too much damage for a skill on 8 second cooldown
- Is Channeled, so you need to waste 2 dodges on it to dodge everything. (which leaves you vulnerable to other attacks, and since professions without vigor such as necro can only dodge once every 10 seconds, they are guarenteed to be hit by the full attack)
- Blind only affects the first arrow, so cannot be countered with this.
- Not every profession has good access to blocks and reflects (like Engineers and Gaurdians) with low CD’s like Rapid Fire.
- Cannot be countered by going into stealth since the skill will still complete.
- Some interrupts are generally too slow to counter all the damage.

I do believe that Ranger can use some buffs in other area’s though, I just think that instead of providing multiple skills that are decently strong, there is just one skill that is a bit too strong (while the other skills kittene a buff). Would most of you players still take longbow without rapid fire?

I am sorry if I misunderstand some things, I hope we can all discuss this with respect.

I personally think that rapid fire and LRS need to be toned down slightly, and other weaponsets need to be incentivized. My greatsword autoattack does less damage than a ‘close range’ LRS, which is dumb.

Things like GS auto, maul, counterattack, whirling defence, axe auto and Sword auto need to have their coefficients raised, so that more rangers put away the longbow, and can run a >1000 range build without feeling like a wet noodle in comparison to other classes.

I think RP never been “2 strong” and more importently the upcoming changes are going to shuffle all the cards, we know nothing about the new menta for clasess(i think the new condi ranger is somthing you should worry about ^^). If u look at many of the changes and the upcoming changes for HOT u’ll c that A.net are very generous with block projectile/deflect skills , its true that for you as a theif u dont have acsses to meny of thouse but its not the case for other professions. Blocks deflect and retaliation counter LB rangers hard.

Strategist.6132:

Hello everyone,

First of all: I am sure there have been other posts like this before, so I am sorry if I bring this up right now.(I’ll delete this one if you can provide me with another post) Please also don’t see this as a hate post that ranger is too overpowered in general or something. I am just wondering what you think about this.

Right now Rapid Fire deals tons of damage on a 10 second cooldown (8 when traited right?). On a Light Golem it with power ranger it deals over half its HP, with not even every hit being a critical hit. Because Longbow is ranged it can stay at a nice range without being afraid to be targeted. (Some of those spots are the pillars in Spirit Watch or at the sides of the mid point at Temple of the Silent Storm).

I must say that 1 vs 1 Power Ranger is strong, but not too overpowered or something (I can beat it on my thief if I try my best) and in sPvP I basically only see two builds: Condi Ranger and Power Ranger, but I feel like ranger always has been a bit under the lader.

So to the point: I think Rapid Fire need to be changed because of the following reasons:

- Does way too much damage for a skill on 8 second cooldown
- Is Channeled, so you need to waste 2 dodges on it to dodge everything. (which leaves you vulnerable to other attacks, and since professions without vigor such as necro can only dodge once every 10 seconds, they are guarenteed to be hit by the full attack)
- Blind only affects the first arrow, so cannot be countered with this.
- Not every profession has good access to blocks and reflects (like Engineers and Gaurdians) with low CD’s like Rapid Fire.
- Cannot be countered by going into stealth since the skill will still complete.
- Some interrupts are generally too slow to counter all the damage.

I do believe that Ranger can use some buffs in other area’s though, I just think that instead of providing multiple skills that are decently strong, there is just one skill that is a bit too strong (while the other skills kittene a buff). Would most of you players still take longbow without rapid fire?

I am sorry if I misunderstand some things, I hope we can all discuss this with respect.

Simply learn to dodge and learn to counterplay rapid fire.
Ranger for me is less strong class in gw2. If you die it’ s your fault

Strategist.6132:

Please also don’t see this as a hate post that ranger is too overpowered in general or something. I am just wondering what you think about this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophasis

The subject have been discussed dozens of times. You don’t know how to deal with RF and you make the same mistakes over and over again. You could have just asked for some tips but you want a nerf. This is a boring cliché.

At this point, like Lugh said, wait the next patch (and watch youtubers, there are plenty of thieves).

I absolutely agree with borya

Rapid Fire is fine and always has been. Rangers lack other mechanics which other classes possess. Moreover, I believe you are talking about PvP and not PvE. Which means you are not playing a solo game. If you are – you have no right to claim what’s OP and what is not assuming that WvW groups and sPvP parties pick roles that fill each others lack to compensate this handicap.

That being said – Rapid Fire is the only burst ability a ranger has. Every other zerk class has several of them. Which basically means that Ranger is hard countered by reflects, retaliation and being focused (other classes have escapes).

If you have problems with dealing with a ranger – the issue is most definitely at your side. No competitive player rolls a Ranger. And there’s a reason for it.

Honestly, I dont think LB needs rapidfire.

Id be thrilled with a spreadshot.

borya.2964:

Strategist.6132:

Please also don’t see this as a hate post that ranger is too overpowered in general or something. I am just wondering what you think about this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophasis

The subject have been discussed dozens of times. You don’t know how to deal with RF and you make the same mistakes over and over again. You could have just asked for some tips but you want a nerf. This is a boring cliché.

At this point, like Lugh said, wait the next patch (and watch youtubers, there are plenty of thieves).

Justine.6351:

Honestly, I dont think LB needs rapidfire.

Id be thrilled with a spreadshot.

We have that on short bow. Video games rarely do spread shots right, ours needs a massive damage boost to make it worth the risk of going point blank with a ranged weapon. Rapid fire is needed for fighting stealth classes, if they take that away they need to give us another way to counter stealth or the only viable build will be condi.

ah, now we come to the reason thieves trait steal to daze and get hate for headshot. you can use both of these to interrupt rapid fire stoping all damage from the ranger for a short time. if you are too far away steal can be comboed with another shadowstep to get you there.

Justine.6351:

Honestly, I dont think LB needs rapidfire.

Id be thrilled with a spreadshot.

That is the Shortbow’s niche, and the poison change is going to make it pretty effective. We also have Barrage on the LB.

I like RF. There’s no decent objective argument that can made for nerfing it. Every time this comes up it’s almost certainly going to be a L2P issue.

A well timed dodge negates the ‘spike’ altogether. A reflect makes it your RF and will often shatter a glassbow with their own attack.

Rapid Fire simply isn’t individually strong (weaker than the autoattack at all points except point blank) and can be countered a multitude of ways.

If you’re getting killed by RF, chances are high you were already screwed… or you suck. RF is pretty great at finishing foes who have exhausted their defenses.

A good ranger is watching for that in a fight.

For the love of… how can you NOT be fast enough to interrupt a 2.5s cast? You can also use any type of blink abilities and go behind the ranger to interrupt “break” RF cast. If you dodge AFTER receiving 2-3 shot of RF, you’ll mitigate the rest of the damage.

The only part where RF is dangerous, is when ranger gets you with your “pants down” or in the open area where LoS is unavailabe.

I made the exact same points a few weeks ago as you are Strategist, and the people of this sub-forum were none too happy about them. They think that just because you believe RF needs to be changed, that you are a terrible player and need to “L2P.” That being said, I agree with you.

The whole point is that people ignore the fact that 30% of that are the sigils that can’t be dodged, blocked or negated.

They proc only if the damage crits – and is applied exactly at the time when it happens. So if you negated 8 out of 10 attacks, you are still probably going to suffer a 3K spike from sigils alone. But that is an issue that has nothing in common with Rapid Fire and people should finally realize that.

Rapid Fire isn’t overpowered or overly strong ability. It’s the fact that the ability is classified as 10 hits which is a wonderful subject for on-hit effects.
And this, my dear “RF=OP” friends can be abused both sides. You should try to learn it.

Classes such as Warrior / Gaurdian and Engineer should in general not have much of a problem with it I think, as they have good utility to blocks and have quite some toughness most of the time. The problem lies more for the squishy classes I think, such as Mesmer, Thief, Necro and Eles (the fresh air ones). As most already found out I play thief most of the time (Gaurdian, Engi and Necro too), and I do have a ranger of course.

The problem is more that a full Rapid Fire does around 75% of my HP. On 1 vs 1, I can beat rangers fine, but I notice a lot that when a ranger appears in groupfights, he just instantly casts Rapid Fire and most of the time it is already too late to react, because the attack has a larger range (not in range of Headshot or Steal), and Utilities have a too long cooldown to be able to able to handle the Point Blank Shot + RF more then twice. (Since most of the time you also need utilities for certain other professions.

But of course I can agree that if you’re out of utility, there are many more skills that could kill you. The only problem I have with RF, is that there is no way to escape once it is casted as a squishy build without block/reflect. If you’re below 75 health it kind of means instant death. (As it does 1.5 times the damage of a backstab)

It is not like the whole game is ruined because of this, but it tends to ruin the experience a bit, if you’re killed at 75% health from 1500 range with the ranger just pressing 1 button.

I do think Ranger needs more utility to survive though. Expecially when wielding other weapons then longbow (since longbow already has stealth)

EDIT: Thanks to your responses guys.

are the buffs to LB rangers going to push them into the heavy weights on the PvP scene?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/PvP-landscape-Upheaval-Rise-of-the-Mesmers/first#post5183292

Share your thoughts here and rank your rangers!

Strategist.6132:

Classes such as Warrior / Gaurdian and Engineer should in general not have much of a problem with it I think, as they have good utility to blocks and have quite some toughness most of the time. The problem lies more for the squishy classes I think, such as Mesmer, Thief, Necro and Eles (the fresh air ones). As most already found out I play thief most of the time (Gaurdian, Engi and Necro too), and I do have a ranger of course.

The problem is more that a full Rapid Fire does around 75% of my HP. On 1 vs 1, I can beat rangers fine, but I notice a lot that when a ranger appears in groupfights, he just instantly casts Rapid Fire and most of the time it is already too late to react, because the attack has a larger range (not in range of Headshot or Steal), and Utilities have a too long cooldown to be able to able to handle the Point Blank Shot + RF more then twice. (Since most of the time you also need utilities for certain other professions.

But of course I can agree that if you’re out of utility, there are many more skills that could kill you. The only problem I have with RF, is that there is no way to escape once it is casted as a squishy build without block/reflect. If you’re below 75 health it kind of means instant death. (As it does 1.5 times the damage of a backstab)

It is not like the whole game is ruined because of this, but it tends to ruin the experience a bit, if you’re killed at 75% health from 1500 range with the ranger just pressing 1 button.

I do think Ranger needs more utility to survive though. Expecially when wielding other weapons then longbow (since longbow already has stealth)

EDIT: Thanks to your responses guys.

U said it urself mate, one on one u can beat RF but in groupfights u can lose. But thats it, theres too many factors to consider in said groupfight. For starters the group should be focusing in appropriate order, meaning glassy lb ranger. If ur group isnt coordinated then they lose

The fact that there is a skill that can be cast from 1500+ range away and fairly reliably deal 6-10k damage depending on your target IS NOT balance.

The fact that longbow can deal more upfront damage at 1500+ range than any of the ranger’s melee weaponsets can at 10 range IS NOT balance.

If you want to tell me I’m wrong, queue for PvP before you do, and replace your LB with either a GS or S/D, change your traits to suit, and tell me how your match went.

I feel disgusting just looking at the longbow in my inventory. How you guys can use it in PvP and think that it is ‘fine’ or takes skill to play is beyond me.

Another day. Another rapid fire post.

I actually believe it needs a buff. A buff on the scale a nuclear bomb. Then we buff the #5 skill so it has a wider area of effect and it throws a bubble over my team mates that shield them from the blast and radiation.

I don’t mind the buff of other skills, I truly believe Ranger can really use some. I only think that Rapid Fire is a bit too strong compared to the other skills

Vendetta.1958:

The fact that there is a skill that can be cast from 1500+ range away and fairly reliably deal 6-10k damage depending on your target IS NOT balance.

The fact that longbow can deal more upfront damage at 1500+ range than any of the ranger’s melee weaponsets can at 10 range IS NOT balance.

If you want to tell me I’m wrong, queue for PvP before you do, and replace your LB with either a GS or S/D, change your traits to suit, and tell me how your match went.

I feel disgusting just looking at the longbow in my inventory. How you guys can use it in PvP and think that it is ‘fine’ or takes skill to play is beyond me.

Warrior Killshot also does around the same damage (even in one huge chunk, giving you an advantage over unaware enemies) on an 8 second cooldown and 1200 range, yet nobody is complaining about that one.

If you can fairly reliable deal 6-10k damage to some dude, that guy is too lazy to dodge/evade/reflect/LOS/etc. Rapidfire has such an obvious animation and if you eat 1 or 2 arrows before dodging it really isn’t a problem since the arrows individually don’t deal that much damage.
If you fail against rapidfire, that’s an issue with you, not with rapidfire.

Also Longbow dealing more damage than a ranger’s melee sets is to be expected, since GS is a utility weapon with a burst skill, that’s about it. Not meant to be a dps weapon.
Sword autoattack actually does more dps in melee than longbow at max range, but is not usable in pvp since the animation locks keep you from dodging in time very often.

That is why full melee ranger currently isn’t really viable, not because longbow OP huehuehue.

Strategist.6132:

I don’t mind the buff of other skills, I truly believe Ranger can really use some. I only think that Rapid Fire is a bit too strong compared to the other skills

Compared to what other skills? Let’s compare it to another 1500 ranged skill. Warriors killshot can be made unblockable, have 100% crit chance, remove 3 conditions on hit, etc. It’s an instant spike doing more damage than rapid fire so you don’t even get the 2.5 seconds to react to it that rapid fire gives you.

If we are looking at skills by themselves without considering the entire build/class, then rapid fire looks under powered compared to similar skills.

coax.2951:

Warrior Killshot also does around the same damage (even in one huge chunk, giving you an advantage over unaware enemies) on an 8 second cooldown and 1200 range, yet nobody is complaining about that one.

kitten my slow typing, you beat me by 2 min lol. But killshot is 1500 range, volley is 1200. Their ranged weapon gets 2 burst skills.

Puck.9612:

coax.2951:

Warrior Killshot also does around the same damage (even in one huge chunk, giving you an advantage over unaware enemies) on an 8 second cooldown and 1200 range, yet nobody is complaining about that one.

kitten my slow typing, you beat me by 2 min lol. But killshot is 1500 range, volley is 1200. Their ranged weapon gets 2 burst skills.

Ah right forgot killshot had longer range. Welp, an even better comparison then.

RF is a burst skill. One of 3 the Ranger has (one is on the offhand axe, so never used in PvP). These skills are stronger than other skills the Ranger has and are supposed to apply pressure. Applying pressure is very important for a power build, since that usually forces the enemy to use a defensive mechanic, like dodging, to counter the pressure. If you nerf RF and take away the pressure it provides, then the Ranger wouldn’t be able to strip the defenses from the enemy and would only be able to win a fight if the enemy makes a mistake.

This is probably why many people want RF and LRS to be nerfed down.

https://youtu.be/a6E7C7i2KQ0?list=FLmiCrh9NTZSbU-XKczLW_3g

Now you know why people can QQ about a weak class like ranger (chuckle)
Totally hilarious.

If a thief goes stealth and then runs away or dodges will RF still hit?!

In my experience a dodge during rapid fire makes me miss like 50-75% of the shots.

Well maybe rapidfire could get some longrangeshot treatment in the dmg department but in reverse.

Rebalance it to do same dmg at say 600-900 range, less dmg at >900 more, more dmg at <600.

I think the skill is more deadly at short range but people seem to think it’s at 1500 range that it’s bs. So cater to their thinking and buff lb simultaneously ;-)

Okay let’s take a look at the facts:

About the dodge:
Rapid Fire lasts 2,5 seconds, while a dodge only takes 0.75 seconds, so even if you would use both dodges you would still not be able to fully come out undamaged.

Rapid Fire vs Kill Shot
- Rapid Fire and Kill Shot both have a cooldown of 8 when traited.

- Rapid Fire has a Skill Coefficient of 3.75
Kill Shot has a Skill Coefficient of 2.25/2.5/3.25 for each adrenaline level on Warrior. I never played Warrior, but I can imagine the adrenaline takes a little while to build up. (Shouldn’t be too long though)

- Sigil procs are close to guarenteed because of the 10 hits on Rapid Fire.
- Movement Interrupts the Kill Shot, while Rapid Fire can be used while moving.

-> Rapid Fire takes damage from retaliation 10 times, while Kill Shot only takes it once.

- Kill Shot has a 1.25 cast time, and only does one hit, Rapid Fire hits 10 times with a 2.5 channeled cast. Concluding from this:
-> Rapid Fire can hit faster since it doesn’t have a 1.25 cast time
-> Kill Shot is likely to deal more damage when traited with the 100% crit trait at full adrenaline.
-> Kill Shot is blindable, dodgeable, blockable, reflectable,
-> Rapid Fire is blockable and reflectable

I think Kill Shot is very strong too if I look at it on paper, but still I never see warriors running with a rifle. (Anyone knows why?) But builds without blocks or reflects are really screwed with Rapid Fire, while Kill Shot can be dodged or blinded and depends on Adrenaline.

If I miss some points please add them below, then I’ll add them to the post.

Sources:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rapid_Fire
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kill_Shot

Strategist.6132:

Okay let’s take a look at the facts:

About the dodge:
Rapid Fire lasts 2,5 seconds, while a dodge only takes 0.75 seconds, so even if you would use both dodges you would still not be able to fully come out undamaged.

Rapid Fire vs Kill Shot
- Rapid Fire and Kill Shot both have a cooldown of 8 when traited.

- Rapid Fire has a Skill Coefficient of 3.75
Kill Shot has a Skill Coefficient of 2.25/2.5/3.25 for each adrenaline level on Warrior. I never played Warrior, but I can imagine the adrenaline takes a little while to build up. (Shouldn’t be too long though)

- Movement Interrupts the Kill Shot, while Rapid Fire can be used while moving.

- Kill Shot has a 1.25 cast time, and only does one hit, Rapid Fire hits 10 times with a 2.5 channeled cast. Concluding from this:
-> Rapid Fire can hit faster since it doesn’t have a 1.25 cast time
-> Kill Shot is likely to deal more damage when traited with the 100% crit trait at full adrenaline.
-> Kill Shot is blindable, dodgeable, blockable, reflectable,
-> Rapid Fire is blockable and reflectable

I think Kill Shot is very strong too if I look at it on paper, but still I never see warriors running with a rifle. (Anyone knows why?) But builds without blocks or reflects are really screwed with Rapid Fire, while Kill Shot can be dodged or blinded and depends on Adrenaline.

If I miss some points please add them below, then I’ll add them to the post.

Sources:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rapid_Fire
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kill_Shot

Rifle is Warrior’s WORST weapon. The dps is even lower than their LB. So do you mean Ranger’s LB should be as bad as Warrior’s Rifle? How about fix Warrior’s rifle instead of nerfing a currently viable weapon?

Also don’t know why you look at things only half way:
1. RF eats retaliation and confusion 10 times. Retaliation is extremely common in WvW.

2. When compare to real dps, RF’s damage should be divided by 2.5 since it takes 2.5 seconds to complete the damage. Rifle’s kill-shot takes 1.25 sec to complete, so the DAMAGE PER SECOND is actually higher, especially after you combine it with Volley in the rotation.

3. The reason why ranger’s LB still win in terms of damage is because Rifle’s Auto attack is very bad compare to Long Range Shot, not because RF does more damage than Volley + Kill shot combined. But LRS’s > 1000 range damage never changed, even back when LB is unviable. So why complain it now?

4. RF is destined to avoid at least half of it’s damage at any person with normal reaction speed because 2.5 seconds is not a real burst.

Btw, here’s a footage about how Warrior utilize rifle, which is kinda good tbh:

https://youtu.be/V9k2chH6beM

Strategist.6132:

Okay let’s take a look at the facts:

About the dodge:
Rapid Fire lasts 2,5 seconds, while a dodge only takes 0.75 seconds, so even if you would use both dodges you would still not be able to fully come out undamaged.

Rapid Fire vs Kill Shot
- Rapid Fire and Kill Shot both have a cooldown of 8 when traited.

- Rapid Fire has a Skill Coefficient of 3.75
Kill Shot has a Skill Coefficient of 2.25/2.5/3.25 for each adrenaline level on Warrior. I never played Warrior, but I can imagine the adrenaline takes a little while to build up. (Shouldn’t be too long though)

- Movement Interrupts the Kill Shot, while Rapid Fire can be used while moving.

- Kill Shot has a 1.25 cast time, and only does one hit, Rapid Fire hits 10 times with a 2.5 channeled cast. Concluding from this:
-> Rapid Fire can hit faster since it doesn’t have a 1.25 cast time
-> Kill Shot is likely to deal more damage when traited with the 100% crit trait at full adrenaline.
-> Kill Shot is blindable, dodgeable, blockable, reflectable,
-> Rapid Fire is blockable and reflectable

I think Kill Shot is very strong too if I look at it on paper, but still I never see warriors running with a rifle. (Anyone knows why?) But builds without blocks or reflects are really screwed with Rapid Fire, while Kill Shot can be dodged or blinded and depends on Adrenaline.

If I miss some points please add them below, then I’ll add them to the post.

Sources:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rapid_Fire
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kill_Shot

And then you look at the ranger description and say it is balanced.

Oh and also we dont have 1/3 of the passive defense warrior get. Don’t compare classes with other classes.

Strategist.6132:

Okay let’s take a look at the facts:

About the dodge:
Rapid Fire lasts 2,5 seconds, while a dodge only takes 0.75 seconds, so even if you would use both dodges you would still not be able to fully come out undamaged.

Rapid Fire vs Kill Shot
- Rapid Fire and Kill Shot both have a cooldown of 8 when traited.

- Rapid Fire has a Skill Coefficient of 3.75
Kill Shot has a Skill Coefficient of 2.25/2.5/3.25 for each adrenaline level on Warrior. I never played Warrior, but I can imagine the adrenaline takes a little while to build up. (Shouldn’t be too long though)

- Movement Interrupts the Kill Shot, while Rapid Fire can be used while moving.

- Kill Shot has a 1.25 cast time, and only does one hit, Rapid Fire hits 10 times with a 2.5 channeled cast. Concluding from this:
-> Rapid Fire can hit faster since it doesn’t have a 1.25 cast time
-> Kill Shot is likely to deal more damage when traited with the 100% crit trait at full adrenaline.
-> Kill Shot is blindable, dodgeable, blockable, reflectable,
-> Rapid Fire is blockable and reflectable

I think Kill Shot is very strong too if I look at it on paper, but still I never see warriors running with a rifle. (Anyone knows why?) But builds without blocks or reflects are really screwed with Rapid Fire, while Kill Shot can be dodged or blinded and depends on Adrenaline.

If I miss some points please add them below, then I’ll add them to the post.

Sources:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rapid_Fire
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kill_Shot

Warriors often don’t run Rifle in the current meta since LB is one of the best utility weapons out there and important for soft cc/condi cleanse/aoe pressure.

In real pvp matches longbow rangers aren’t much of an asset at the moment, because if your opponent knows what they’re doing that ranger is gonna get focused as soon as he tries to join the teamfight.
True, longbow rangers are pretty great when they can just sit back on, say, the ledge on Foefire, but in real matches you’ll have someone on you asap trying to force you into melee or retreat. And in real matches there are PLENTY of spots you can use line of sight.

RF & Longbow in general are overpowered against subpar or unaware players. The second you start fighting people who know what they’re doing a longbow ranger is more of a hinderance than an asset compared to other classes. That’s why you never see them in tournaments (it also lacks offensive utility like boonstrips, but that’s another story).

Lol. While we’re on the subject of Thieves, since you’ve mentioned that you play one, your #1 dagger skill while in stealth, “Backstab” has a “cooldown” of 4seconds from Revealed. Said skill can deliver critical attacks of 12,000+ in a single hit, that can be spammed until it connects (you can repeatedly press #1 while in stealth without using Initiative) and that you cannot see coming.

For science…

Toxsa.2701:

Strategist.6132:

Okay let’s take a look at the facts:

About the dodge:
Rapid Fire lasts 2,5 seconds, while a dodge only takes 0.75 seconds, so even if you would use both dodges you would still not be able to fully come out undamaged.

Rapid Fire vs Kill Shot
- Rapid Fire and Kill Shot both have a cooldown of 8 when traited.

- Rapid Fire has a Skill Coefficient of 3.75
Kill Shot has a Skill Coefficient of 2.25/2.5/3.25 for each adrenaline level on Warrior. I never played Warrior, but I can imagine the adrenaline takes a little while to build up. (Shouldn’t be too long though)

- Movement Interrupts the Kill Shot, while Rapid Fire can be used while moving.

- Kill Shot has a 1.25 cast time, and only does one hit, Rapid Fire hits 10 times with a 2.5 channeled cast. Concluding from this:
-> Rapid Fire can hit faster since it doesn’t have a 1.25 cast time
-> Kill Shot is likely to deal more damage when traited with the 100% crit trait at full adrenaline.
-> Kill Shot is blindable, dodgeable, blockable, reflectable,
-> Rapid Fire is blockable and reflectable

I think Kill Shot is very strong too if I look at it on paper, but still I never see warriors running with a rifle. (Anyone knows why?) But builds without blocks or reflects are really screwed with Rapid Fire, while Kill Shot can be dodged or blinded and depends on Adrenaline.

If I miss some points please add them below, then I’ll add them to the post.

Sources:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rapid_Fire
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Kill_Shot

Rifle is Warrior’s WORST weapon. The dps is even lower than their LB. So do you mean Ranger’s LB should be as bad as Warrior’s Rifle? How about fix Warrior’s rifle instead of nerfing a currently viable weapon?

Also don’t know why you look at things only half way:
1. RF eats retaliation and confusion 10 times. Retaliation is extremely common in WvW.

2. When compare to real dps, RF’s damage should be divided by 2.5 since it takes 2.5 seconds to complete the damage. Rifle’s kill-shot takes 1.25 sec to complete, so the DAMAGE PER SECOND is actually higher, especially after you combine it with Volley in the rotation.

3. The reason why ranger’s LB still win in terms of damage is because Rifle’s Auto attack is very bad compare to Long Range Shot, not because RF does more damage than Volley + Kill shot combined. But LRS’s > 1000 range damage never changed, even back when LB is unviable. So why complain it now?

4. RF is destined to avoid at least half of it’s damage at any person with normal reaction speed because 2.5 seconds is not a real burst.

Btw, here’s a footage about how Warrior utilize rifle, which is kinda good tbh:

https://youtu.be/V9k2chH6beM

Thanks for some new insights! I will add them! About the “Don’t compare classes with other classes”, I wasn’t the one that suggested to compare Rapid Fire with Kill Shot.:P (So I hope you’re not that mad at me).

About the Retaliation and Confusion:
- Confusion only damages when starting to activate a skill (Source: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusion) so it will only hit once I guess.
- Retaliation is a good point! The shame is though that not many professions have access to it. It’s mainly only Guardian (and one skill for Mesmer).

The problem for me lies to the fact to counter the whole skill without it’s relation to other skills. (For me rifle #1 might be buffed if neccecary). Just thieves have no access to retaliation, blocks or reflects, which give them no option to prevent the damage.

Strategist.6132:

The only problem I have with RF, is that there is no way to escape once it is casted as a squishy build without block/reflect. If you’re below 75 health it kind of means instant death. (As it does 1.5 times the damage of a backstab)

Then don’t go full glass?

I love all the people that complain about things like, oh, conditions are so OP you can’t cleanse them or Rapid Fire is so OP it takes 75% of my health… Meanwhile they’re not taking the proper measurements to deal with said problems.

I often play a melee trapper Ranger. I have no stunbreaks, no stability and one passive condition cleanse. Hammer Warriors eat me for breakfast. There’s almost nothing I can do against a half decent Hammer Warrior. Do I say they’re OP? No… Because it’s my fault that I haven’t put stunbreaks in to my build, not the Warriors for exploiting my weakness. That is simply the build I am vulnerable to. All builds have counters.

If you don’t like getting Rapid Fire bursted, try a build that can handle the damage better instead of putting the blame on the Ranger.

coax.2951:

Warriors often don’t run Rifle in the current meta since LB is one of the best utility weapons out there and important for soft cc/condi cleanse/aoe pressure.

In real pvp matches longbow rangers aren’t much of an asset at the moment, because if your opponent knows what they’re doing that ranger is gonna get focused as soon as he tries to join the teamfight.
True, longbow rangers are pretty great when they can just sit back on, say, the ledge on Foefire, but in real matches you’ll have someone on you asap trying to force you into melee or retreat. And in real matches there are PLENTY of spots you can use line of sight.

RF & Longbow in general are overpowered against subpar or unaware players. The second you start fighting people who know what they’re doing a longbow ranger is more of a hinderance than an asset compared to other classes. That’s why you never see them in tournaments (it also lacks offensive utility like boonstrips, but that’s another story).

I totally agree on this! But this is of course when you have an organized team, in Unranked or Ranked without TS this is almost impossible to realize. When in fights there isn’t much time to see a Ranger approaching on the map without being off focus in the fights themselves. But still a good point, in organized fights this would be less of a problem.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Lol. While we’re on the subject of Thieves, since you’ve mentioned that you play one, your #1 dagger skill while in stealth, “Backstab” has a “cooldown” of 4seconds from Revealed. Said skill can deliver critical attacks of 12,000+ in a single hit, that can be spammed until it connects (you can repeatedly press #1 while in stealth without using Initiative) and that you cannot see coming.

For science…

This is only in WvW of course, and only fools would go with an all in build:P In sPvP you can limit it on around 6000 crit damage for a fairly bursty build. About the 4 seconds revealed, you also need time to go in stealth again, so add 1 or 2 seconds to that + the time to actually position yourself behind an opponent which is also 1 or 2 seconds. Backstabs are dodgable or can be halved by clever positioning, or you can do AoE damage. Aegis would work too. But I agree with you guys, it might be hard to feel when to dodge for backstabs and stuff too since you can’t see an enemy. I aim for sPvP the most (sorry for not saying earlier).

I like the discussing and please don’t feel attacked personally or something. I don’t mean it like that.

@strategist
Thieves have access to the smoke screen. Of course, this isn’t ever picked to PvP since it’s potential is against Rangers (Or Morph necros) only…
… But then again, every other class is more valuable on point than 1200+ range away from it.

Moreover – one other fact to add to Rapid Fire
- the chance to apply on-crit-procs (like sigils) is close to guaranteed.

The thing is:
… Rapid fire is the only ability that a Ranger has to deal spike damage. Also, the only thing the class brings to a fight is damage unlike other classes. If damage is the only thing we can bring – we might as well be best at it.
You know… We have no easy access to higher ground, our mobility is low, our damage can be tracked and countered easier than others (no real burst like backstab or kill shot).

If our only reason we can be viable (and yet worst at the role : see competitive scene) is nerfed – we need a huge compensation for that. And I mean a massive one. Heart of Thorns offered lots of classes projectile denial or reflects – which means you can build your team to have a member to potentially fill this role of anti-Ranger.
You are never alone in this game and you can’t (and shouldn’t) balance this game around 1v1.

Strategist.6132:

Okay let’s take a look at the facts:

About the dodge:
Rapid Fire lasts 2,5 seconds, while a dodge only takes 0.75 seconds, so even if you would use both dodges you would still not be able to fully come out undamaged.

It is about choices….everyone has options for sigils, traits, and food. So you can actually have 3 dodges.

This argument is old. Arena Net doesn’t believe it is over powered or needs adjustment. Au contraire they changed it – so you all dislike it and come to the forums to say so. Or the general forum, or even the WvW forum.

It will be interesting come Tuesday because Rangers will get a few more trait points back now whereas we spent them for ranger and a few other things. By nightfall on Tuesday I’m thinking there will be much more dislike.

Crapgame.6519:

Strategist.6132:

Okay let’s take a look at the facts:

About the dodge:
Rapid Fire lasts 2,5 seconds, while a dodge only takes 0.75 seconds, so even if you would use both dodges you would still not be able to fully come out undamaged.

It is about choices….everyone has options for sigils, traits, and food. So you can actually have 3 dodges.

This argument is old. Arena Net doesn’t believe it is over powered or needs adjustment. Au contraire they changed it – so you all dislike it and come to the forums to say so. Or the general forum, or even the WvW forum.

It will be interesting come Tuesday because Rangers will get a few more trait points back now whereas we spent them for ranger and a few other things. By nightfall on Tuesday I’m thinking there will be much more dislike.

I’m not too worried about it since the spotlight is on Mesmer, Engi, and Thief who got the most buff. People will QQ about them first XD.

Also Ele in WvW will be more deadly because of that -33% fire attonement CD. Now they use Lava Plum on top of each other to do double damage, and spam Meteor Shower way more often.

Tragic Positive.9356:

@strategist
Thieves have access to the smoke screen. Of course, this isn’t ever picked to PvP since it’s potential is against Rangers (Or Morph necros) only…
… But then again, every other class is more valuable on point than 1200+ range away from it.

Moreover – one other fact to add to Rapid Fire
- the chance to apply on-crit-procs (like sigils) is close to guaranteed.

The thing is:
… Rapid fire is the only ability that a Ranger has to deal spike damage. Also, the only thing the class brings to a fight is damage unlike other classes. If damage is the only thing we can bring – we might as well be best at it.
You know… We have no easy access to higher ground, our mobility is low, our damage can be tracked and countered easier than others (no real burst like backstab or kill shot).

If our only reason we can be viable (and yet worst at the role : see competitive scene) is nerfed – we need a huge compensation for that. And I mean a massive one. Heart of Thorns offered lots of classes projectile denial or reflects – which means you can build your team to have a member to potentially fill this role of anti-Ranger.
You are never alone in this game and you can’t (and shouldn’t) balance this game around 1v1.

I agree with you, if Rapid Fire is nerfed, something else should be buffed a lot. Right now only Condi Ranger would be the other alternative, but the rest is not that good for as far as I know.

Strategist.6132:

About the dodge:
Rapid Fire lasts 2,5 seconds, while a dodge only takes 0.75 seconds, so even if you would use both dodges you would still not be able to fully come out undamaged.

This gets brought up every time, and every time people seem to forget the simple fact that Rapid Fire’s channel duration was lowered. Earlier, before they lowered channel duration, two dodges actually migated less of the damage. The damage is the same, it’s just the damage per second that is higher.

This isn’t something new, people only come to realize this after several other changes to the ranger made LB builds more viable in PvP.

What most people also seem to forget is that Rapid Fire benefits immensly from Sigil of Air and Fire. You got 10 hits to proc both them, that’s a huge chunk of the damage which actually doesn’t come from the skill itself, but from sigils due do the nature of channeled skills.

Gern.2978:

I made the exact same points a few weeks ago as you are Strategist, and the people of this sub-forum were none too happy about them. They think that just because you believe RF needs to be changed, that you are a terrible player and need to “L2P.” That being said, I agree with you.

The opening post in your thread was a bunch of lies (like stating that RF can be made unblockable), and you ignored several of the replies to your comments.

And yet you still go on and on about the cancerous attitude of this sub-forum. Why don’t take a look in the mirror for once instead of acting like some sort of a moral compass?

Lazze.9870:

Strategist.6132:

About the dodge:
Rapid Fire lasts 2,5 seconds, while a dodge only takes 0.75 seconds, so even if you would use both dodges you would still not be able to fully come out undamaged.

This gets brought up every time, and every time people seem to forget the simple fact that Rapid Fire’s channel duration was lowered. Before two dodges migated less of the damage. The actual damage is the same, it’s just the damage per second that is higher.

This isn’t something new, people only come to realize this after several other changes to the ranger made LB builds more viable in PvP.

What most people also seem to forget is that Rapid Fire benefits immensly from Sigil of Air and Fire. You got 10 hits to proc both them, that’s a huge chunk of the damage which actually doesn’t come from the skill itself, but from sigils due do the nature of channeled skills.

Mmm I don’t really understand what you mean. You mean that the skill description is wrong and it lasts for less then 2.5 seconds? Do you know how long it takes now?

Strategist.6132:

Lazze.9870:

Strategist.6132:

About the dodge:
Rapid Fire lasts 2,5 seconds, while a dodge only takes 0.75 seconds, so even if you would use both dodges you would still not be able to fully come out undamaged.

This gets brought up every time, and every time people seem to forget the simple fact that Rapid Fire’s channel duration was lowered. Before two dodges migated less of the damage. The actual damage is the same, it’s just the damage per second that is higher.

This isn’t something new, people only come to realize this after several other changes to the ranger made LB builds more viable in PvP.

What most people also seem to forget is that Rapid Fire benefits immensly from Sigil of Air and Fire. You got 10 hits to proc both them, that’s a huge chunk of the damage which actually doesn’t come from the skill itself, but from sigils due do the nature of channeled skills.

Mmm I don’t really understand what you mean. You mean that the skill description is wrong and it lasts for less then 2.5 seconds? Do you know how long it takes now?

No no, he means that it was buffed at some time to have 50% reduced cast time. Before that, the weapon was never ever used. Anywhere. PvP, PvE, WvW – it didn’t have a single viable place.

And the only buff it received was the cast time. Which means nothing really in particular. Maybe only that the damage was even harder to negate by dodges, right?

Yea, I mean, of course the spike got buffed, but the overall DPS hardly changed.

Tragic Positive.9356:

Strategist.6132:

Lazze.9870:

Strategist.6132:

About the dodge:
Rapid Fire lasts 2,5 seconds, while a dodge only takes 0.75 seconds, so even if you would use both dodges you would still not be able to fully come out undamaged.

This gets brought up every time, and every time people seem to forget the simple fact that Rapid Fire’s channel duration was lowered. Before two dodges migated less of the damage. The actual damage is the same, it’s just the damage per second that is higher.

This isn’t something new, people only come to realize this after several other changes to the ranger made LB builds more viable in PvP.

What most people also seem to forget is that Rapid Fire benefits immensly from Sigil of Air and Fire. You got 10 hits to proc both them, that’s a huge chunk of the damage which actually doesn’t come from the skill itself, but from sigils due do the nature of channeled skills.

Mmm I don’t really understand what you mean. You mean that the skill description is wrong and it lasts for less then 2.5 seconds? Do you know how long it takes now?

No no, he means that it was buffed at some time to have 50% reduced cast time. Before that, the weapon was never ever used. Anywhere. PvP, PvE, WvW – it didn’t have a single viable place.

And the only buff it received was the cast time. Which means nothing really in particular. Maybe only that the damage was even harder to negate by dodges, right?

Yea, I mean, of course the spike got buffed, but the overall DPS hardly changed.

Aha! So it used to last around 3+ seconds? (or before it started shooting?) Thanks for clarifying though. I think Rapid Fire in WvW is fine though! (I mean there are some other cheesy things over there if you talk about damage:P) Just in sPvP I think it’s a bit too strong for just 1 click on the button. With strong I don’t really mean the damage perse but more like the counterability of it for some classes/builds, and the sigil procs which make it do even more damage. It does look like though that this is one of the only viable builds for Ranger. But who knows what HoT will bring! I should take a look:P

ranger doesnt need any more nerf to their range weapons… they are supposed to be a “range” class and these kind of post is what had pushed LB into a pvp mostly wep and having them kicked from pve groups if they stay on it more than to cast the initial RP/barrage

you using a serk build, on the medium armored class with the less base hp pool agaisnt the highest (and only) spike of another class also geared on berserker gear (never seen a non serker ranger using LB) its obvius a full cast of rf is gonna take you that much if you cant learn how to counter it.

what does exactly ranger needs that can be buffed in exchange of a nerf without making its survavility op? they have dodges in altmost every weapon, tank pets, dmg inmunity utilities, massive movement/scape options (s 2# GS 3# traps, speed signet)

in exchange they only have 1 single spike skill on their whole weapon list, that can be countered even turned agaisnt the ranger and you want it nerfed?

in that case they should nerf stealth and backstab on thiefs and improve their survavility?, i find myself killed by perma stealth thieves with backstab more often than any other class (and if you come to me saying that can be countered then RP as proved allready can too so we´re done here)

Strategist.6132:

Tragic Positive.9356:

Strategist.6132:

Lazze.9870:

Strategist.6132:

About the dodge:
Rapid Fire lasts 2,5 seconds, while a dodge only takes 0.75 seconds, so even if you would use both dodges you would still not be able to fully come out undamaged.

This gets brought up every time, and every time people seem to forget the simple fact that Rapid Fire’s channel duration was lowered. Before two dodges migated less of the damage. The actual damage is the same, it’s just the damage per second that is higher.

This isn’t something new, people only come to realize this after several other changes to the ranger made LB builds more viable in PvP.

What most people also seem to forget is that Rapid Fire benefits immensly from Sigil of Air and Fire. You got 10 hits to proc both them, that’s a huge chunk of the damage which actually doesn’t come from the skill itself, but from sigils due do the nature of channeled skills.

Mmm I don’t really understand what you mean. You mean that the skill description is wrong and it lasts for less then 2.5 seconds? Do you know how long it takes now?

No no, he means that it was buffed at some time to have 50% reduced cast time. Before that, the weapon was never ever used. Anywhere. PvP, PvE, WvW – it didn’t have a single viable place.

And the only buff it received was the cast time. Which means nothing really in particular. Maybe only that the damage was even harder to negate by dodges, right?

Yea, I mean, of course the spike got buffed, but the overall DPS hardly changed.

Aha! So it used to last around 3+ seconds? (or before it started shooting?) Thanks for clarifying though. I think Rapid Fire in WvW is fine though! (I mean there are some other cheesy things over there if you talk about damage:P) Just in sPvP I think it’s a bit too strong for just 1 click on the button. With strong I don’t really mean the damage perse but more like the counterability of it for some classes/builds, and the sigil procs which make it do even more damage. It does look like though that this is one of the only viable builds for Ranger. But who knows what HoT will bring! I should take a look:P

Yes, indeed. It had a 5 second cast time.
Well, as I see it, Ranger in his Power Builds have always been about those on-hit effects. And I’m fine with that, I kind of like it. It’s kind of class-defining.

You seem to be the only guy who came to discuss the issue on adult level. I like you, Sir. And you are definitely right about the HoT. We still are far from knowing how the things will go and we’ll have to see and adapt afterwards.

If the longbow game-style becomes too out of hand, I’m fine with getting a little bit of tweak over here and there to fit the meta in another way. But currently as we are – the longbow is not really powerful at all. I mean – organized groups have really easy time dealing with this issue and will have the same after the changes as well. We’ll get some more breathing room and utility to hopefully make our way into tournaments after such a long time – we really deserve it.

I agree that the ranged damage is a nuisance but it’s only uncomfortable, not troublesome. If you take into account everything a Ranger can do – you don’t have a slightest problem fighting against them. I actually sip my coffee against LB rangers currently with my celestial setup and I usually go out winning and on 80% HP.

The reasoning behind why people find LB rangers a trouble is nothing else but human factor. And that’s fine. People that don’t know where is the Ranger’s limit have hard time countering them. The rest has a child’s play.

But in my opinion – Heart of Thorns offers new ways of dealing with LB rangers. We are going to get way more candy to play Longbow Ranger but much more salt is getting into other classes’ options, too. Which means that Longbow Rangers will have easier time tearing through unprepared enemies and will get countered harder by those prepared.

And I definitely like this “Sniper patience” game-style. I won’t probably play it anyways but I like the context regardless.

Tragic Positive.9356:

Strategist.6132:

Tragic Positive.9356:

Strategist.6132:

Lazze.9870:

Strategist.6132:

About the dodge:
Rapid Fire lasts 2,5 seconds, while a dodge only takes 0.75 seconds, so even if you would use both dodges you would still not be able to fully come out undamaged.

This gets brought up every time, and every time people seem to forget the simple fact that Rapid Fire’s channel duration was lowered. Before two dodges migated less of the damage. The actual damage is the same, it’s just the damage per second that is higher.

This isn’t something new, people only come to realize this after several other changes to the ranger made LB builds more viable in PvP.

What most people also seem to forget is that Rapid Fire benefits immensly from Sigil of Air and Fire. You got 10 hits to proc both them, that’s a huge chunk of the damage which actually doesn’t come from the skill itself, but from sigils due do the nature of channeled skills.

Mmm I don’t really understand what you mean. You mean that the skill description is wrong and it lasts for less then 2.5 seconds? Do you know how long it takes now?

No no, he means that it was buffed at some time to have 50% reduced cast time. Before that, the weapon was never ever used. Anywhere. PvP, PvE, WvW – it didn’t have a single viable place.

And the only buff it received was the cast time. Which means nothing really in particular. Maybe only that the damage was even harder to negate by dodges, right?

Yea, I mean, of course the spike got buffed, but the overall DPS hardly changed.

Aha! So it used to last around 3+ seconds? (or before it started shooting?) Thanks for clarifying though. I think Rapid Fire in WvW is fine though! (I mean there are some other cheesy things over there if you talk about damage:P) Just in sPvP I think it’s a bit too strong for just 1 click on the button. With strong I don’t really mean the damage perse but more like the counterability of it for some classes/builds, and the sigil procs which make it do even more damage. It does look like though that this is one of the only viable builds for Ranger. But who knows what HoT will bring! I should take a look:P

Yes, indeed. It had a 5 second cast time.
Well, as I see it, Ranger in his Power Builds have always been about those on-hit effects. And I’m fine with that, I kind of like it. It’s kind of class-defining.

You seem to be the only guy who came to discuss the issue on adult level. I like you, Sir. And you are definitely right about the HoT. We still are far from knowing how the things will go and we’ll have to see and adapt afterwards.

If the longbow game-style becomes too out of hand, I’m fine with getting a little bit of tweak over here and there to fit the meta in another way. But currently as we are – the longbow is not really powerful at all. I mean – organized groups have really easy time dealing with this issue and will have the same after the changes as well. We’ll get some more breathing room and utility to hopefully make our way into tournaments after such a long time – we really deserve it.

I agree that the ranged damage is a nuisance but it’s only uncomfortable, not troublesome. If you take into account everything a Ranger can do – you don’t have a slightest problem fighting against them. I actually sip my coffee against LB rangers currently with my celestial setup and I usually go out winning and on 80% HP.

The reasoning behind why people find LB rangers a trouble is nothing else but human factor. And that’s fine. People that don’t know where is the Ranger’s limit have hard time countering them. The rest has a child’s play.

But in my opinion – Heart of Thorns offers new ways of dealing with LB rangers. We are going to get way more candy to play Longbow Ranger but much more salt is getting into other classes’ options, too. Which means that Longbow Rangers will have easier time tearing through unprepared enemies and will get countered harder by those prepared.

And I definitely like this “Sniper patience” game-style. I won’t probably play it anyways but I like the context regardless.

Thanks for compliment I guess! Maybe you were right that it is partly a human factor too, they are definitely not Overpowered in the general sense, and organized teams can indeed take them out well. I don’t see rangers in tournaments often either, so I guess it would be nice if ranger got some cool options to choose from.

Anyways, thanks everyone for the discussion and for providing some new insights! I’ll watch this topic for a while but I probably won’t post new information.

Have a nice week!

Is that all?

DarkSyze.8627:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc6LZTwamPI

Didn’t you ragequit the game?