Guild Wars 2

Its not uncommon for rapid fire to hit players fro 2500 per hit. Thats 10K damage from a skill that is a quick cast from range. Sure you can dodge it, but lets compare it to a thieves backstab.

This damage is similar to a backstab, but let us look at what a backstab requires:

1.) must be behind target.
2.) Must have pulled off a cloak and dagger prior.
3.) If the player uses any speed up skill its a guaranteed miss.
4.) If the player stealths well you have no target – rapid fire keeps on hitting stealthed players.
5.) backstab requires an escape to get back to range.
6.) Can’t backstab in AOE area…rapid fire you don’t care because its from range!

So as you can see same damage…lots of other advantages. Way way way OP.

Lastly the least you could do is make it honor stealth. As it is now stealth and wham (1)…ok I could see lag issues and etc that it might hit you once….but WHAM WHAM WHAM. 10K damage to a stealthed player with direct shot attacks.

Borken is what it is…not even up to broken.

Lets not…

Instead, lets compare it to a skill like Volley. A skill that really is similar to rapid fire.

Let’s not create another whiny thread . Just post your complaint in one of the other 30 threads created by other bad players that don’t know how to dodge, reflect, etc.

Really? RF now too?

I’m going to just leave this here for everyone to realize you’re not even worth the time because clearly this is a L2P issue…

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Rangers-stealth-removal-skill-needs-to-go/first#post4434604

Jim Hunter.6821:

Let’s not create another whiny thread . Just post your complaint in one of the other 30 threads created by other bad players that don’t know how to dodge, reflect, etc.

Really…so there are a bunch of threads saying the same thing….hmmm what could that mean.

But really no need to nerf this skill just bring backstab into balance with it. Backstab from same range…no stealth required. Follows you into stealth. You can dodge backstab too. In fact you get 2 chances…the C&D and the BS.

Reading all of your previous posts, you clearly have much to learn.

Skeletor.9360:

Really…so there are a bunch of threads saying the same thing….hmmm what could that mean.

It means there’s an extremely vocal minority of players with poor reflexes who are prone to demanding nerfs before even trying to adapt to the latest changes.

Lots of whine threads does not mean something is overpowered.

I’m not 100% confident that Rapid Fire is now OP, though it is definitely crossing that line once you combine it with some of our utility skills.

All I’ll say is that it is amazing reading these forums over the last two months, and watching the opinions of some of our most vocal posters change from anger towards Anet and everyone else for ignoring Rangers, to anger towards Anet and everyone else for paying attention finally. There’s also a lot of anger towards people for comparing Rapid fire to any other skill in the game (sorry, except volley for some reason), even though this is exactly what every single one of you were doing just last month.

….Its getting just a little pathetic.

Mesmers opinion on rapid fire

Seen that video posted more than a dozen times now in every single thread, is also getting just a little pathetic.

@Chrispy.5641
hi Chrispy, i struggle to understand your opinion on the subject… You probably watch the same arguments and the same videos only becuse the same forum post is re-posted under different names 1000 times already.
Like you saied, comparing weapon skills from different professions is a bad methology, rangers that did that pre-patch have been scoled and were not taken seriously.
The rapidfire OP threads started on the evening of the patch, and the posts you see today are Inertia of the same original posts. Its a big change for the meta game, from almost 0 power ragers we moved to wide poulation, it takes time to messure and adjust, players used to Look at power rangers as en engi turret(ignore it, if it gets to annoying, destroy it) Now we all go through a “re-learning” prosess, there is a new type of “role” is the game – high range single target burst dps, some builds will have to be twiked, the same way most builds require you to carry condi-defence, builds will have to include more mobility, toughness, and range defence(block\reflect etc…)
I play a SB ranger btw, always have. I win vs 95% of my LB rangers encounters, the good LB rangers players kill me and thats the way it should be.
and Lets be honest here, on eveyry time u’r getting killed by rapidfire while running away from zerg/small group, you die atleast 3 times to a s/d thief but players just got used to it so no big deal.

The problem is that noone can deal that amount of burst from such a long range (which is bugged and goes up to 1900+ btw) so i feel like the problem is that in small fights while you are fighting other people you can potentially have 2 rangers bursting you for 15k dmg from the moon.

Honestly though i don’t have much of an issue with LB rangers, the only thing i think is it shouldn’t track people when they go into stealth. As someone said some classes negate damage only with stealth mechanic, and that already has a few hard counters i don’t feel like a weap skill that is now very good as it is should also completely overlook an entire game mechanic.

Also not to bring logic in a game but it really doesn’t make any

Have you ever been bursted by 2 thieves at the same time in WvW? Of course you have. And you never see them coming.

Have you ever faced PD thief or PU mesmer? Of caurse you have.

Perplexity engineer, thief, mesmer, warrior?? Sure

Do you know what is common for all of this?? Small scale or roaming specs. Which are in the grand scheme of WvW completely irrelevant. But they are very OP for what they do. Ranger is no where near the power of these specs yet people complain about rapid fire. But none of this has any place in zerging which is what wins WvW matchups.

PvP, power rangers are not there yet. They are being used but we are yet to see how well they perform over a period of time in high tier competitive play.

Knee jerk reactions from an innately imbalanced game mode in a completely irrelevant area. (WvW small scale/roaming)

on the contrary, it is no secret that the biggest screamers of rapidfire OP are thieves and mesmers, both evolved a gamestyle which allow them to roam with full glassy builds while being be close to invisible. If LB rangers can punish this kind of playstyle i’m happy. You see? everything is about position, as a SB ranger with good damge but no hard burst damge spikes, thives and PU mesmers are a nightmare, LB rangers, on the other hand, are pice of cake.In theory LB rangers will make thieves and mesmers go abit less greedy builds and builds that good vs LB rangers will make them go abit less greedy. Its a dynemic meta game the way it supposed to be.

Skeletor.9360:

Its not uncommon for rapid fire to hit players fro 2500 per hit. Thats 10K damage from a skill that is a quick cast from range. Sure you can dodge it, but lets compare it to a thieves backstab.

This damage is similar to a backstab, but let us look at what a backstab requires:

1.) must be behind target.
2.) Must have pulled off a cloak and dagger prior.
3.) If the player uses any speed up skill its a guaranteed miss.
4.) If the player stealths well you have no target – rapid fire keeps on hitting stealthed players.
5.) backstab requires an escape to get back to range.
6.) Can’t backstab in AOE area…rapid fire you don’t care because its from range!

So as you can see same damage…lots of other advantages. Way way way OP.

Lastly the least you could do is make it honor stealth. As it is now stealth and wham (1)…ok I could see lag issues and etc that it might hit you once….but WHAM WHAM WHAM. 10K damage to a stealthed player with direct shot attacks.

Borken is what it is…not even up to broken.

Nice way of only looking at one side.

Let me add:
Backstab can be reused until it hits.
Rapid fire is used when it’s used.
Rapid fire can easily be evaded.
Backstab CAN be used in AoE circles, so can rapid fire.
Thief can just teleport to enemy, backstab, teleport back and redo the whole thing.
2.) Your use of “must” is very wrong. You’re implying that it’s the only skill that grants stealth.

The annoying RF rangers you meet are zerker noobs who use Long range shot —> Point Blank shot —> Rapid fire. They can’t kill you with anything else than rapid fire.

I really do have to agree with what Chrispy is saying overall. In another thread he raised the point that the larger issue is probably related to SotW, and I would agree with that. 25% damage is simply too much for a signet. Especially when that signet also provides stability.

Full traited, Volley and Rapid Fire only deal about 10% less damage than one another. Even if RF were to be nerfed, we’re likely not looking at much more than a 10% damage nerf. I’d more than welcome that change, and a reduction of SotW down to 10% for the Ranger (25% for the pet) if it meant some of the other issues for the class could actually be resolved instead of left ignored simply because the class now has a single potent burst skill at range.

I can definitely see this skill getting toned down a little, but it has enough counters:
– Line of sight
– Projectile Reflect
– Block
– Blind
– Evade
etc. etc.

As for point 4: You can backstab a stealthed target easily enough. Also, since it’s a single, instant skill, it doesn’t need to follow them to stealth.

That instant part is pretty big because you can’t evade a backstab after you see it start to be cast. However, you can evade part of a rapid fire as soon as you see it start to be cast.

Solving an issue(if there is an issue) by nerfining somthing else which also apply to other things not related to main issue is a big no no, you end up nerfing meny builds which doesnt requier nerfing while not much adrresing to the main issue(ripple effect).

Chokolata.1870:

Have you ever been bursted by 2 thieves at the same time in WvW? Of course you have. And you never see them coming.

Have you ever faced PD thief or PU mesmer? Of caurse you have.

Perplexity engineer, thief, mesmer, warrior?? Sure

Do you know what is common for all of this?? Small scale or roaming specs. Which are in the grand scheme of WvW completely irrelevant. But they are very OP for what they do. Ranger is no where near the power of these specs yet people complain about rapid fire. But none of this has any place in zerging which is what wins WvW matchups.

PvP, power rangers are not there yet. They are being used but we are yet to see how well they perform over a period of time in high tier competitive play.

Knee jerk reactions from an innately imbalanced game mode in a completely irrelevant area. (WvW small scale/roaming)

Well for many people that completely irrelevant area is the only part of the game that is remotely fun because, if you don’t like pvp/conquest, it’s actually the only part of the game that is comptetitive and challenging. It’s the only reason many people still play and yes I think we have the right to speak out for ourselves in balancing issues just like everyone else does.

But if you read my prev post i’m saying that i don’t have many issues with rangers except that one. I’m actually really happy about the improvements they got and when i play (and i rarely do) stealth build i feel like that’s too much.

And it’s not like thieves are glassy because they’re greedy
They’re glassy because even running valk armor and 6pts in toughness traitline you’ll still be very glassy, and if you sacrifice more damage you’re not going anywere

specifically talking about thieves all i’m saying is try to roam D/D thief for a while and you’ll see that there’s really no need to add another hard counter

To get back on topic btw i really am happy with ranger’s changes and don’t have many issues with them, just saying that we’re talking about the ONLY class in the game that can deal great burst dmg from such a long range so balancing it should be treated and considered carefully, because it’s true that you can’t compare it with backstab and both those skills have pros and cons. The issue is you can’t compare it with anything because there’s no other burst skill that has 1500+range

My point about RF being:
-It’s a good skill
-someone proved that LB range is bugged and goes way above 1500 <- needs fix
-It’s not overall OP
-It shouldn’t track stealth because it’s starting to be a bit too much (high damage, huge range, 10x vuln, 8s cd AND stealth tracking?)

Why wasn’t RF a problem prior to the patch then? You needed 2 dodges instead of 1, it followed you to stealth and it hit as hard as it does now. The range has been the same since launch as well.

Skeletor.9360:

Borken is what it is…not even up to broken.

rofl. you think a lot of things are broken, and it’s just you dying in wvw.

I hear people can refelct all of Backstabs damage back at you and also severely punish you for backstabbing by chunking your health if they have retaliation alone, oh wait…

WHY THE WHOLE POINT OF THE THREAD BECAME COMPARING IT TO BACKSTAB WTF I CAN GET A RANDOM GUY RANDOMLY PULL OFF SOMETHING THAT DOESNT MAKE SENSE BUT JESUS IF WE’RE GOING TO HAVE IN EVERY SINGLE REMOTELY CONSTRUCTIVE DISCUSSION PEOPLE SAYING THAT “RAPID FIRE IS JUST THE SAME AS BEFORE”, ONE THAT SAYS OH THEY HAVE STEALTH TRACKING SO MAKE BS IGNORE ARMOR COMPLETELY AND ANOTHER ONE COMPARING LAMPS TO FREAKING SEALIONS WTF I’M GOING TO BE THE ONE SPAMMING RANDOMNESS IN CAPS LOCK SO I’LL AT LEAST FEEL GOOD WITH MYSELF TOO INSTEAD OF TRYING TO MAKE AN ARGUMENT

FrouFrou.4958:

Why wasn’t RF a problem prior to the patch then? You needed 2 dodges instead of 1, it followed you to stealth and it hit as hard as it does now. The range has been the same since launch as well.

This (I’m just going to piggyback off of you from here and not direct any of this at you).

Same effects, same cooldown, same damage, less counterplay pre-patch.

Also, as mentioned prior to this, Rapid Fire is now more in line with Volley (damage didn’t change and output is still the same, but the skill now mirrors Volley’s time frame).

Not to mention mesmers have a higher damage burst at range still.

Regardless of all of that, rangers still have the same exact matchups against meta builds as they did previously. Condition builds (like triple kit engis), S/D thieves, meditation guardians, D/D eles, and MOST warrior builds still have the edge in a pure 1v1 (not to mention that those 1v1 matchups accumulate against the ranger in teamfights).

Rangers just have more of an ability to catch people off guard, which gives people a shorter time time frame to react than previously. This ultimately means that the game and builds are now balanced for skill.

Also, top end competitive play in this game hasn’t had a meta shift since the patch. There is still only 1 ranger I know of playing glass effectively at a high end level, and he and his team are an outlier. The rest of the top teams and ultimately the players who popularize builds aren’t even running a single ranger in their composition. Probably because of the poor matchup between every single meta build and ranger builds.

The game is, as of now, balanced for SKILL (anybody who doesn’t understand needs to watch the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w).

Likely, most of these players haven’t noticed the minimal change made to Rapid Fire versus all the other functionality being complained about that has existed since launch because previously, Longbow was a poor weapon with a negligible output that could be dealt with easily by the majority of players and not even rank high on their threat meter, which is indicative of it previously being imbalanced because every weapon in some way should be threatening to an opponent, and longbow was not.

So, we now kitten the same weapon with the same damage output as before, but the damage occurs in a slightly shorter time frame (2.25 seconds is an eon to any not-stoned, not disabled player with any semblance of skill). The only thing that has changed is the reaction time, which essentially raised the bar for the skill level it takes because you have to actually be involved and not just strafing, dodging, yawning and scratching yourself.

So, the ONLY thing that’s changed is the amount of skill it takes to counterplay a mechanic, and not even the way that it is counterplayed. Why then are there so many complaints? Likely, the people complaining are experiencing a two-fold effect of an influx of players dusting off their rangers or trying them for the first time because the class (ANY class) is more appealing after being buffed. So, population is a factor.

Then, we have these players who are more than likely either getting caught off guard (just like getting hit by a backstab) or just being outplayed entirely, and because they haven’t adapted (and judging from some of the responses are mouthbreathers and probably forgot how to dodge anyhow and can’t adapt) their skill level to match the skill required in the currently low end balance, they are going to come on here and complain until the end of time because they can’t adapt to a shifting low end balance.

So, the options are to A. Get better, or B. play at the top tier where the build is insignificant for the current metagame (which A happens to be a prerequisite because no top team is going to want you if you can’t outplay a glass ranger).

tl;dr: It’s all important. Read it all. Likely, the people incapable of doing so are going to be the same people who it applies to.

jcbroe.4329:

FrouFrou.4958:

Why wasn’t RF a problem prior to the patch then? You needed 2 dodges instead of 1, it followed you to stealth and it hit as hard as it does now. The range has been the same since launch as well.

This (I’m just going to piggyback off of you from here and not direct any of this at you).

Same effects, same cooldown, same damage, less counterplay pre-patch.

Also, as mentioned prior to this, Rapid Fire now does the same damage as Volley.

Not to mention mesmers have a higher damage burst at range still.

Regardless of all of that, rangers still have the same exact matchups against meta builds as they did previously. Condition builds (like triple kit engis), S/D thieves, meditation guardians, D/D eles, and MOST warrior builds still have the edge in a pure 1v1 (not to mention that those 1v1 matchups accumulate against the ranger in teamfights).

Rangers just have more of an ability to catch people off guard, which gives people a shorter time time frame to react than previously. This ultimately means that the game and builds are now balanced for skill.

Also, top end competitive play in this game hasn’t had a meta shift since the patch. There is still only 1 ranger I know of playing glass effectively at a high end level, and he and his team are an outlier. The rest of the top teams and ultimately the players who popularize builds aren’t even running a single ranger in their composition. Probably because of the poor matchup between every single meta build and ranger builds.

The game is, as of now, balanced for SKILL (anybody who doesn’t understand needs to watch the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w).

Likely, most of these players haven’t noticed the minimal change made to Rapid Fire versus all the other functionality being complained about that has existed since launch because previously, Longbow was a poor weapon with a negligible output that could be dealt with easily by the majority of players and not even rank high on their threat meter, which is indicative of it previously being imbalanced because every weapon in some way should be threatening to an opponent, and longbow was not.

So, we now kitten the same weapon with the same damage output as before, but the damage occurs in a slightly shorter time frame (2.25 seconds is an eon to any not-stoned, not disabled player with any semblance of skill). The only thing that has changed is the reaction time, which essentially raised the bar for the skill level it takes because you have to actually be involved and not just strafing, dodging, yawning and scratching yourself.

So, the ONLY thing that’s changed is the amount of skill it takes to counterplay a mechanic, and not even the way that it is counterplayed. Why then are there so many complaints? Likely, the people complaining are experiencing a two-fold effect of an influx of players dusting off their rangers or trying them for the first time because the class (ANY class) is more appealing after being buffed. So, population is a factor.

Then, we have these players who are more than likely either getting caught off guard (just like getting hit by a backstab) or just being outplayed entirely, and because they haven’t adapted (and judging from some of the responses are mouthbreathers and probably forgot how to dodge anyhow and can’t adapt) their skill level to match the skill required in the currently low end balance, they are going to come on here and complain until the end of time because they can’t adapt to a shifting low end balance.

So, the options are to A) Get better, or play at the top tier where the build is insignificant for the current metagame (which A happens to be a prerequisite because no top team is going to want you if you can’t outplay a glass ranger).

tl;dr: It’s all important. Read it all. Likely, the people incapable of doing so are going to be the same people who it applies to.

Thank you. You spoke my mind.

jcbroe.4329:

2.25 seconds is an eon to any not-stoned, not disabled player

I usually play WvW drunk and it’s still an eon.

I wonder if people are used to just spamming dodge for a flat percent time of invulnerability rather than using them on appropriate skills. Like how many people dodge on recharge against a hammer warrior instead of dodging earthshaker? Is the solution to the whining that simple? Stop dodge spamming?

Durzlla.6295:

I hear people can refelct all of Backstabs damage back at you and also severely punish you for backstabbing by chunking your health if they have retaliation alone, oh wait…

Oh how I wish a thief would take an instant 4k hit from a single backstab.

Pretty much stopped using piercing arrows iin WvW because it got old fast to watch my health evaporate without taking a single hit from an enemy.

Fluffball.8307:

jcbroe.4329:

2.25 seconds is an eon to any not-stoned, not disabled player

I usually play WvW drunk and it’s still an eon.

I wonder if people are used to just spamming dodge for a flat percent time of invulnerability rather than using them on appropriate skills. Like how many people dodge on recharge against a hammer warrior instead of dodging earthshaker? Is the solution to the whining that simple? Stop dodge spamming?

I admit I’m sometimes guilty of this, but at least I don’t complain about my own incompetence.

Razor.9872:

Fluffball.8307:

jcbroe.4329:

2.25 seconds is an eon to any not-stoned, not disabled player

I usually play WvW drunk and it’s still an eon.

I wonder if people are used to just spamming dodge for a flat percent time of invulnerability rather than using them on appropriate skills. Like how many people dodge on recharge against a hammer warrior instead of dodging earthshaker? Is the solution to the whining that simple? Stop dodge spamming?

I admit I’m sometimes guilty of this, but at least I don’t complain about my own incompetence.

We all do it from time to time, I call it a preemptive dodge lol. You were expecting something based on a perceived enemy pattern for a certain class and “overreacted” haha.

Still, @Fluffball, yeah, I’ve watched people go straight up WvW zergling and double dodge my autoattacks and I just scratch my head thinking “…..okay, he’s about to die and go complain on the forums that a ranger killed him and that we need nerfs.”

And I wholeheartedly believe 100% it’s because people go so used to playing against the old Longbow where Rapid Fire’s cast was so long and boring and predictable that to most players with the old LB, they probably didn’t even distinguish between it and an autoattack until the end of the channel when the autoattack attack speed kicked back in.

I’m just extremely bothered right now by all of the players who are arguing that they should LITERALLY be able to facetank damage and ignore damage mitigation mechanics built into the game, simply because they used to be able to facetank the damage and it was dealt out to them at such a slow pace that a sloth could handle it. There isn’t a SINGLE solitary burst damage mechanic in this game that you can successfully facetank and not be put at a serious disadvantage or close to death. Ranged (mesmer can do it, warrior can do it, necro can do it) or melee. The fact that people are literally crying just because we finally got the Quality of Life change we’ve been fighting for since the release of the game to bring it in line with the rest of the similar functioning weapons and skills in the game is infuriating to me. Especially when these people don’t accept numbers, logic, counterplay advice, reason, or even hand holding. They are on a straight up witch hunt because they don’t like that their favorite class didn’t get changes and another class got changes that gives them one more thing to dodge.

It’s pathetic.

jcbroe.4329:

Razor.9872:

Fluffball.8307:

jcbroe.4329:

2.25 seconds is an eon to any not-stoned, not disabled player

I usually play WvW drunk and it’s still an eon.

I wonder if people are used to just spamming dodge for a flat percent time of invulnerability rather than using them on appropriate skills. Like how many people dodge on recharge against a hammer warrior instead of dodging earthshaker? Is the solution to the whining that simple? Stop dodge spamming?

I admit I’m sometimes guilty of this, but at least I don’t complain about my own incompetence.

We all do it from time to time, I call it a preemptive dodge lol. You were expecting something based on a perceived enemy pattern for a certain class and “overreacted” haha.

Still, @Fluffball, yeah, I’ve watched people go straight up WvW zergling and double dodge my autoattacks and I just scratch my head thinking “…..okay, he’s about to die and go complain on the forums that a ranger killed him and that we need nerfs.”

And I wholeheartedly believe 100% it’s because people go so used to playing against the old Longbow where Rapid Fire’s cast was so long and boring and predictable that to most players with the old LB, they probably didn’t even distinguish between it and an autoattack until the end of the channel when the autoattack attack speed kicked back in.

I’m just extremely bothered right now by all of the players who are arguing that they should LITERALLY be able to facetank damage and ignore damage mitigation mechanics built into the game, simply because they used to be able to facetank the damage and it was dealt out to them at such a slow pace that a sloth could handle it. There isn’t a SINGLE solitary burst damage mechanic in this game that you can successfully facetank and not be put at a serious disadvantage or close to death. Ranged (mesmer can do it, warrior can do it, necro can do it) or melee. The fact that people are literally crying just because we finally got the Quality of Life change we’ve been fighting for since the release of the game to bring it in line with the rest of the similar functioning weapons and skills in the game is infuriating to me. Especially when these people don’t except numbers, logic, counterplay advice, reason, or even hand holding. They are on a straight up witch hunt because they don’t like that their favorite class didn’t get changes and another class got changes that gives them one more thing to dodge.

It’s pathetic.

Remember when varied dailies first came out and people in Orr would ask in map chat how to dodge? Good times.

To be fair, spamming dodge on a ranger is a valid tactic since we have so many evades!

Fluffball.8307:

To be fair, spamming dodge on a ranger is a valid tactic since we have so many evades!

Picture this hahaha, I have an engineer with Adventurer Runes, the Speedy Kits combo (you get vigor on swap too), AND energy sigils. Not to mention shield block, toolkit block, and reflect on shield.

Evade spam forever!!!! lol.

jcbroe.4329:

Fluffball.8307:

To be fair, spamming dodge on a ranger is a valid tactic since we have so many evades!

Picture this hahaha, I have an engineer with Adventurer Runes, the Speedy Kits combo (you get vigor on swap too), AND energy sigils. Not to mention shield block, toolkit block, and reflect on shield.

Evade spam forever!!!! lol.

CAN’T TOUCH THIS~ [queue music]

Delta Blues.8507:

WHY THE WHOLE POINT OF THE THREAD BECAME COMPARING IT TO BACKSTAB WTF I CAN GET A RANDOM GUY RANDOMLY PULL OFF SOMETHING THAT DOESNT MAKE SENSE BUT JESUS IF WE’RE GOING TO HAVE IN EVERY SINGLE REMOTELY CONSTRUCTIVE DISCUSSION PEOPLE SAYING THAT “RAPID FIRE IS JUST THE SAME AS BEFORE”, ONE THAT SAYS OH THEY HAVE STEALTH TRACKING SO MAKE BS IGNORE ARMOR COMPLETELY AND ANOTHER ONE COMPARING LAMPS TO FREAKING SEALIONS WTF I’M GOING TO BE THE ONE SPAMMING RANDOMNESS IN CAPS LOCK SO I’LL AT LEAST FEEL GOOD WITH MYSELF TOO INSTEAD OF TRYING TO MAKE AN ARGUMENT

Because it does exactly the same stuff as before, however I don’t think Jesus does it tho.

Well the only time u do spam dodge is against a power necro in shroud. Those godkitten 6k auto attacks….. Or you reflect them with axe5 tee hee hee

jcbroe.4329:

FrouFrou.4958:

Why wasn’t RF a problem prior to the patch then? You needed 2 dodges instead of 1, it followed you to stealth and it hit as hard as it does now. The range has been the same since launch as well.

This (I’m just going to piggyback off of you from here and not direct any of this at you).

Same effects, same cooldown, same damage, less counterplay pre-patch.

Also, as mentioned prior to this, Rapid Fire now does the same damage as Volley.

Second fat text implying that it didn’t before.

You got contradictionED!

solrik.6028:

jcbroe.4329:

FrouFrou.4958:

Why wasn’t RF a problem prior to the patch then? You needed 2 dodges instead of 1, it followed you to stealth and it hit as hard as it does now. The range has been the same since launch as well.

This (I’m just going to piggyback off of you from here and not direct any of this at you).

Same effects, same cooldown, same damage, less counterplay pre-patch.

Also, as mentioned prior to this, Rapid Fire now does the same damage as Volley.

Second fat text implying that it didn’t before.

You got contradictionED!

Not necessarily, though I can see how it can be interpreted as such and I will be editing it to clarify, since it is being said as though rapid fire never used to do similar/same damage to volley, which is untrue, it’s just a time frame difference that was corrected.

Thanks for pointing that out though! lol.

I’m not sure who the hell did the math comparing Volley and Rapid Fire, and I couldn’t find it, so I am going to show you my own math:::

Skill breakdown
Rapid Fire = 10 projectiles. Each projectile has a coefficient of 0.375
There is also 10 stacks of vulnerability applied. 1 on each projectile.
20% projectile finisher chance.

Volley = 5 projectiles. Each projectile has a coefficient of 0.6
20% projectile finisher chance.

Total Damage (@3000 power)
[only including power scaling, not weapon power, critical damage, or armor in the calculation, so the number will appear a little high. For this calculation, the power scaling is all that’s important for now anyways)

Rapid Fire = Each projectile does (3000×0.375=1125) damage, for a total of 11,250

• As an added bonus, each stack of vulnerability actually increases damage slightly for each projectile, showing a noticeable damage increase by your last projectile.
• first projectile does 1125
• second projectile does 1136
• third projectile does 1147
• fourth projectile does 1158
• fifth projectile does 1170
• sixth projectile does 1181
• seventh projectile does 1192
• eighth projectile does 1203
• ninth projectile does 1215
• tenth projectile does 1226
• Total damage = 11753 damage.

Volley = Each projectile does 1800 damage, for a total of 9000 damage.

This means that Volley is actually 76.5% as Strong as Rapid Fire. Rapid Fire IS NOT 10% stronger than Volley. Its actually closer to 30% stronger. You can actually consider Rapid Fire even stronger when you consider that Rapid Fire has twice as many chances for Projectile Finishers as Volley does.

Lets Quash that statement that Rapid fire does the same damage as Volley, right now. Its not True.

Does this mean that Rangers are OP? Not necessarily. Rangers should have an advantage with Ranged weapons, considering that, not including offhand, 3/5 of our weapons are ranged (Longbow/Shortbow/Axe). The problem is that the advantage starts to get out of control when you start throwing other aspects of the Ranger class into the mix, such as Signet of the Wild.

Chrispy.5641:

This means that Volley is actually 76.5% as Strong as Rapid Fire. Rapid Fire IS NOT 10% stronger than Volley. Its actually closer to 30% stronger.

Actually it’s closer to 31% stronger by your numbers. 1/.765 = 1.307.

And yeah, my back-of-the-envelope calcs said that the new RF was in the ballpark of 30%-35% stronger than Volley. I don’t really know the warrior skills/traits that well though, and like you I couldn’t find where the 15% and 10% figures being thrown around came from so I couldn’t dissect it. (My calcs came out >30% because rangers can trait for power + precision + ferocity. Warriors have to pick 2 of the 3.)

Chrispy.5641:

I’m not sure who the hell did the math comparing Volley and Rapid Fire, and I couldn’t find it, so I am going to show you my own math:::

Skill breakdown
Rapid Fire = 10 projectiles. Each projectile has a coefficient of 0.375
There is also 10 stacks of vulnerability applied. 1 on each projectile.
20% projectile finisher chance.

Volley = 5 projectiles. Each projectile has a coefficient of 0.6
20% projectile finisher chance.

Total Damage (@3000 power)
[only including power scaling, not weapon power, critical damage, or armor in the calculation, so the number will appear a little high. For this calculation, the power scaling is all that’s important for now anyways)

Rapid Fire = Each projectile does (3000×0.375=1125) damage, for a total of 11,250

• As an added bonus, each stack of vulnerability actually increases damage slightly for each projectile, showing a noticeable damage increase by your last projectile.
• first projectile does 1125
• second projectile does 1136
• third projectile does 1147
• fourth projectile does 1158
• fifth projectile does 1170
• sixth projectile does 1181
• seventh projectile does 1192
• eighth projectile does 1203
• ninth projectile does 1215
• tenth projectile does 1226
• Total damage = 11753 damage.

Volley = Each projectile does 1800 damage, for a total of 9000 damage.

This means that Volley is actually 76.5% as Strong as Rapid Fire. Rapid Fire IS NOT 10% stronger than Volley. Its actually closer to 30% stronger. You can actually consider Rapid Fire even stronger when you consider that Rapid Fire has twice as many chances for Projectile Finishers as Volley does.

Lets Quash that statement that Rapid fire does the same damage as Volley, right now. Its not True.

Does this mean that Rangers are OP? Not necessarily. Rangers should have an advantage with Ranged weapons, considering that, not including offhand, 3/5 of our weapons are ranged (Longbow/Shortbow/Axe). The problem is that the advantage starts to get out of control when you start throwing other aspects of the Ranger class into the mix, such as Signet of the Wild.

You can’t ignore the fact warriors rifle has kill shot as well. Kill shot is also 1500 range and is just as deadly for people that aren’t paying attention, don’t know how to dodge, or just think ranged builds are unfair so they aren’t going to bring skills to counter them.

Long Range Shot is a lot stronger than Fierce Shot, at any Range. Fierce Shot grants bonus adrenaline though, setting up Kill Shot faster, but Kill Shot is easy to spot because of the unique warrior animation. Advantage : Ranger

Warriors have Rifle Butt, but we have Point Blank Shot, which we can use it all the way out to 1,200 range traited (900 untraited). Warrior’s Rifle Butt is always 130 range. Advantage : Ranger

Warriors have Brutal Shot. It applies 8 vulnerability on a 15 second cooldown. That aspect of our weapon is already rolled into Rapid Fire, which my numbers show is already stronger than Volley, even without the added Vulnerability. This means Rangers have an extra skill they can use…Barrage. Advantage : Ranger.

Warriors have Aimed Shot that causes Cripple. Rangers have Hunter’s Shot, which applies stealth to us, and swiftness to the pet. Advantage : Tie (only because these two skills can’t be compared)

We get an extra skill, Barrage, because the vulnerability skill is already rolled into Rapid Fire. Its not the greatest skill, but you can combine that cripple with Predator’s onslaught and Rapid Fire to deal an extra 1500+ damage. Its one of the most basic combos we have now with the Longbow. Easy to see and get away from (barrage is a pretty good indicator to stay away), but still, Warrior doesn’t have this option because his ‘Rapid Fire’ is broken into two skills, unlike us. Advantage : Ranger

Warrior gets the Kill Shot Burst Skill as part of their class mechanic, which is way more telegraphed than Rapid Fire or Barrage, and its the only Burst Skill the Warrior gets on the rifle. Rangers however, can customize their Class mechanic however they want and can choose from dozens of pets, each with their own unique skill, and its independent on any of our weapons. (I could go on to say that Thief’s Steal skill depends on the target, Engineer’s Tool belt depends on utility skills, Elementalist’s attunements limit their weapon choices to almost nothing, and the other three classes always have the same set F1-4 skills.). Our class mechanic is arguably the most broken, most bugged, and usually the most useless (especially in PvP/WvW), and Anet doesn’t seem to want to fix it anytime soon, but you can’t deny the options we get compared to other professions. Advantage : (in a perfect world) Definitely Ranger. (In our current state) Still Ranger, because of how obvious Kill shot it. I see your kill shot and raise you stealth Jaguar.

Who wins between a Rifle Warrior and a Longbow Ranger? Its going to be Ranger, every time. The Warrior Rifle is way weaker than the Longbow unless you get lucky/are good at ambushes with Kill shot.

Does this Make Rangers OP? Not Exactly. It just shows that Warrior Rifle is underpowered, and Warriors should be a little more proactive in their Rifle complaints. Its one of their only Ranged weapons, and its only use is building up adrenaline….and pot shots with kill shot.

Please consider that RF has 2 bursts and that you need only 1 trait to get both CD reduction and piercing. Furthermore, a warrior can trait defensively and still use rifle to a maximum of its ability.

Chrispy.5641:

Long Range Shot is a lot stronger than Fierce Shot, at any Range. Fierce Shot grants bonus adrenaline though, setting up Kill Shot faster, but Kill Shot is easy to spot because of the unique warrior animation. Advantage : Ranger

Warriors have Rifle Butt, but we have Point Blank Shot, which we can use it all the way out to 1,200 range traited (900 untraited). Warrior’s Rifle Butt is always 130 range. Advantage : Ranger

Warriors have Brutal Shot. It applies 8 vulnerability on a 15 second cooldown. That aspect of our weapon is already rolled into Rapid Fire, which my numbers show is already stronger than Volley, even without the added Vulnerability. This means Rangers have an extra skill they can use…Barrage. Advantage : Ranger.

Warriors have Aimed Shot that causes Cripple. Rangers have Hunter’s Shot, which applies stealth to us, and swiftness to the pet. Advantage : Tie (only because these two skills can’t be compared)

We get an extra skill, Barrage, because the vulnerability skill is already rolled into Rapid Fire. Its not the greatest skill, but you can combine that cripple with Predator’s onslaught and Rapid Fire to deal an extra 1500+ damage. Its one of the most basic combos we have now with the Longbow. Easy to see and get away from (barrage is a pretty good indicator to stay away), but still, Warrior doesn’t have this option because his ‘Rapid Fire’ is broken into two skills, unlike us. Advantage : Ranger

Warrior gets the Kill Shot Burst Skill as part of their class mechanic, which is way more telegraphed than Rapid Fire or Barrage, and its the only Burst Skill the Warrior gets on the rifle. Rangers however, can customize their Class mechanic however they want and can choose from dozens of pets, each with their own unique skill, and its independent on any of our weapons. (I could go on to say that Thief’s Steal skill depends on the target, Engineer’s Tool belt depends on utility skills, Elementalist’s attunements limit their weapon choices to almost nothing, and the other three classes always have the same set F1-4 skills.). Our class mechanic is arguably the most broken, most bugged, and usually the most useless (especially in PvP/WvW), and Anet doesn’t seem to want to fix it anytime soon, but you can’t deny the options we get compared to other professions. Advantage : (in a perfect world) Definitely Ranger. (In our current state) Still Ranger, because of how obvious Kill shot it. I see your kill shot and raise you stealth Jaguar.

Who wins between a Rifle Warrior and a Longbow Ranger? Its going to be Ranger, every time. The Warrior Rifle is way weaker than the Longbow unless you get lucky/are good at ambushes with Kill shot.

Does this Make Rangers OP? Not Exactly. It just shows that Warrior Rifle is underpowered, and Warriors should be a little more proactive in their Rifle complaints. Its one of their only Ranged weapons, and its only use is building up adrenaline….and pot shots with kill shot.

Your analysis is all personal opinion. A full zerk rifle warrior will be a lot less glassy than a full zerk ranger.
Fast hands and GS allows them to reposition and get right back in the action a lot more easily than a ranger can.
Warriors have a utility to make their shots unlockable.
Rangers LB burst is entirely rapid fire. Warrior had volley and kill shot.

I’m not trying to argue that rifle warrior is a great build but a group of yolo rifle warriors would be just as devastating as a group of baby rangers.

Of course they are both a total joke in a 1v1 fight.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Of course they are both a total joke in a 1v1 fight.

I ran solo LB for ages before the buff (or was “they” referring to baby rangers?)

It’s probably a lot harder to get away with now. Before the latest update many people didn’t know: 1) we had a short CD stealth on LB, 2) what RF even did, 3) were only vaguely aware of what PBS did, 4) thought LB didn’t hit hard, 5) weren’t aware we could chain a whole lot of CC to keep LB hitting hard from range, 6) we had lots of defensive options up close.

I swear 99% of my kills on my WvW panel are from people not even knowing that rangers were allowed to play GW2. Now we change a single skill and everyone is studying every nuance of how to kill rangers. I’ve even seen posts by people going on about how dangerous barrage is, when a few weeks ago barrage apparently didn’t do any damage at all.

Fluffball.8307:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Of course they are both a total joke in a 1v1 fight.

I ran solo LB for ages before the buff (or was “they” referring to baby rangers?)

It’s probably a lot harder to get away with now. Before the latest update many people didn’t know: 1) we had a short CD stealth on LB, 2) what RF even did, 3) were only vaguely aware of what PBS did, 4) thought LB didn’t hit hard, 5) weren’t aware we could chain a whole lot of CC to keep LB hitting hard from range, 6) we had lots of defensive options up close.

I swear 99% of my kills on my WvW panel are from people not even knowing that rangers were allowed to play GW2. Now we change a single skill and everyone is studying every nuance of how to kill rangers. I’ve even seen posts by people going on about how dangerous barrage is, when a few weeks ago barrage apparently didn’t do any damage at all.

Was absolutely referring to the baby rangers. Power ranger has been my favorite build since beta. I made a second ranger because I have my build fine tuned just the way I like it and I don’t want to screw with it.

Of course my build isn’t the “full glass, throw all utilities and traits into 1 mega burst” build the baby rangers are running. That’s why I kill every one of them I come across.

Tricare.2946:

Reading all of your previous posts, you clearly have much to learn.

Oh, you think there’s hope!

Doubt it…

Chrispy.5641:

I’m not sure who the hell did the math comparing Volley and Rapid Fire, and I couldn’t find it, so I am going to show you my own math:::

Skill breakdown
Rapid Fire = 10 projectiles. Each projectile has a coefficient of 0.375
There is also 10 stacks of vulnerability applied. 1 on each projectile.
20% projectile finisher chance.

Volley = 5 projectiles. Each projectile has a coefficient of 0.6
20% projectile finisher chance.

Total Damage (@3000 power)
[only including power scaling, not weapon power, critical damage, or armor in the calculation, so the number will appear a little high. For this calculation, the power scaling is all that’s important for now anyways)

Rapid Fire = Each projectile does (3000×0.375=1125) damage, for a total of 11,250

• As an added bonus, each stack of vulnerability actually increases damage slightly for each projectile, showing a noticeable damage increase by your last projectile.
• first projectile does 1125
• second projectile does 1136
• third projectile does 1147
• fourth projectile does 1158
• fifth projectile does 1170
• sixth projectile does 1181
• seventh projectile does 1192
• eighth projectile does 1203
• ninth projectile does 1215
• tenth projectile does 1226
• Total damage = 11753 damage.

Volley = Each projectile does 1800 damage, for a total of 9000 damage.

This means that Volley is actually 76.5% as Strong as Rapid Fire. Rapid Fire IS NOT 10% stronger than Volley. Its actually closer to 30% stronger. You can actually consider Rapid Fire even stronger when you consider that Rapid Fire has twice as many chances for Projectile Finishers as Volley does.

Lets Quash that statement that Rapid fire does the same damage as Volley, right now. Its not True.

Does this mean that Rangers are OP? Not necessarily. Rangers should have an advantage with Ranged weapons, considering that, not including offhand, 3/5 of our weapons are ranged (Longbow/Shortbow/Axe). The problem is that the advantage starts to get out of control when you start throwing other aspects of the Ranger class into the mix, such as Signet of the Wild.

Here’s where my confusion is from…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fJAQJAUEG4HQMLQjrVkqJA-TFBXgAA7PK/C1F0r+zjSQA-w

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fNAQJATDGYPoWHALwZzEXbBA-TFBXgAA7PK/C1F0r+zjSQA-w

Now baseline, the 2 skills are only about 15% off since Rifle has a higher base damage. And clearly the coefficient will spread the gap as power goes up in favor of the Ranger.

But the 2 calculators above don’t consider the flanking or endurance bonus (20%) vs the bleed or boon bonus (10% + X%).

Still not getting 30% unless you factor in the vulns, but the ‘effective’ vuln between the weapons (not skills) is the same too.

Not to mention warriors and rangers are different classes that are meant to be played completely differently and have those trade offs adjusted in their weapons and traits.

Since all the math guys are here, the most reasonable comparison that can be made between ranged weapons in the game is either comparing the damage output of the ranger Longbow to the Mesmer Greatsword, and the next closest comparison is to compare it to the Elementalist staff.

I’m sure people will find that, particularly with the Mesmer Greatsword, the damage is so similar that it matches the class philosophies ideals presented in the ready up podcast a few weeks ago.

jcbroe.4329:

Not to mention warriors and rangers are different classes that are meant to be played completely differently and have those trade offs adjusted in their weapons and traits.

Since all the math guys are here, the most reasonable comparison that can be made between ranged weapons in the game is either comparing the damage output of the ranger Longbow to the Mesmer Greatsword, and the next closest comparison is to compare it to the Elementalist staff.

I’m sure people will find that, particularly with the Mesmer Greatsword, the damage is so similar that it matches the class philosophies ideals presented in the ready up podcast a few weeks ago.

Beside those, there are also factors like armor and health. Warrior’s base armor and health is higher, and their utilities are more aggressive.

Edit:
Same kind of argument works for all professions. They are built differently and the problem is that many players can’t see the big picture and have only a small tunnel vision directed at RF when thinking about balance

solrik.6028:

jcbroe.4329:

Not to mention warriors and rangers are different classes that are meant to be played completely differently and have those trade offs adjusted in their weapons and traits.

Since all the math guys are here, the most reasonable comparison that can be made between ranged weapons in the game is either comparing the damage output of the ranger Longbow to the Mesmer Greatsword, and the next closest comparison is to compare it to the Elementalist staff.

I’m sure people will find that, particularly with the Mesmer Greatsword, the damage is so similar that it matches the class philosophies ideals presented in the ready up podcast a few weeks ago.

Beside those, there are also factors like armor and health. Warrior’s base armor and health is higher, and their utilities are more aggressive.

Edit:
Same kind of argument works for all professions. They are built differently and the problem is that many players can’t see the big picture and have only a small tunnel vision directed at RF when thinking about balance

Exactly. Like, it’s bothering me right now that during that Ready Up, the devs stated specifically that rangers should be the best at range where they aren’t right now (at the time of the show), and cited mesmers as being the next in line for range damage.

We get the update that corrects that, and all of a sudden everybody loses their kitten because the devs did exactly what they said they were intending to do regarding balancing for the class philosophies.

Literally aneurysm inducing.