Guild Wars 2

Vendetta.1958:

Puck.9612:

Vendetta.1958:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Vendetta.1958:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Vendetta.1958:

If you don’t think apoth gear is viable you need to reevaluate your decision to attempt to discuss builds on this forum.

Condition damage armor is pretty useless with a staff that has no damaging conditions on it, wouldn’t you say? Hence, adding conditions to the staff would make Apothecary armor viable for Druid Healing/Condi builds. Unless ofc the goal is to do as little damage as possible.

When discussing builds, I looks for synergies, like damaging conditions and condition damage, they do go together pretty well.

You do know you can press ~ to swap weaponsets right?
So you can equip Condi weapons on one set, and staff in the other.
Throw on some nice apoth and some dire trinkets, a trap maybe, sounds pretty OP to me.

So having 5/15 of your weapon skills do pitiful damage and 4/15 do no damage at all is a good idea to you?

So you do what, swap from A/T or S/T to Staff to heal, building up AF to enter CAF so you can heal even more, all the while doing no damage? Putting zero pressure on your opponent? Yeah, top build. I can see that being roaming meta. You may need to reevaluate your decision to attempt to discuss builds on this forum.

Fashion Mage.3712:

I think it should just stay as a healing/astral force weapon. The shortbow is already there for the ranged condition damage role.

And CAF is already there for a purely healing role. Staff should perform another role other than healing, ie damage. Adding some condi makes it more flexible for all builds.

It sounds like the Druid specialization doesn’t fit what you preordained it to be. If you don’t like playing a healer/support role and ‘doing no damage’ nobody is forcing you to play it:

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

If you want to focus on being the top offense then you probably shouldn’t be selecting the Druid specialization.

But do us all a favor and don’t rant on here demanding that it be changed to perfectly suit whatever build you happen to run.

I don’t think he is trying to make it fit any particular build. He is just trying to make it a useful weapon.

The game has been designed around not needing a dedicated healer, that was one of its biggest selling points. What happens if this experiment fails? Do you realize how much of the PvE content in this game has been toned down to make it easier and more casual? Pretty much all of it.

If it fails do you think they will immediately redesign druid to make it useful? Before you answer that remember that the core ranger has been littered with problems for over 3 years because it would take to much effort to fix them

The best time to try and get things changed is right now while they are already working on it.

PvE is a complete joke.

Whether you like it or not, druid is a complete waste of space in any of the core games PvE no matter which way you slice it. As long as the profession mechanic revolves around healing, and the core games PvE is laughable at best in terms of difficulty, that will be the case.

So let’s now accept this, and move on – lets not water this spec down for the fun parts of this game for the appeasement of a subset of content that will never ever use this spec anyway 8 months from now.

Not to be argumentative. But I honestly feel like you’re speaking from a meta standpoint. I’ve found my uses for it. Probably wouldn’t be up to “meta standards” but duo fractals / dungeons was a lot easier and more fun with Druid. That’s a use, is it not? Or did fun fly out the window and no one told me?

the weapon swap locks out of the Staffs heals so what is going to keep up Damage pressure to Viable levels cetainly not staff as it stands , its needs added layers of Damage not Power stats directly because a Staff only Benifits from a few stat sets Healing/Vit/toughness as it stands .

Power co eds are too low to make Zerker Viable vs other Top dps specs but that won;t happend as its core is a support role.

Vit/ only helps in WvW/Pvp for PvE scaling of events means Vit is not as Valued same goes for toughness thats more Valued in WvW/Pvp than it is in PvE too.

so the only thing staff does right now is Support/CC and heals the pressure comes from CC’s but the damage is lacking and adding more heals is not a good choice because healing doesn’t add to Combat effectiveness , things like Boons or condi pressure add to combat effectiveness .

these added layers don’t need to be Apply 3stacks of poison ect like dagger or apply 5 bleeds like SB , its a totaly new weapon that can not Be compaired to other weapons Even trying to compair it to other Staffs is not Viable because its core mechanics are different, its a support weapon not a Boon weapon , its not like necro staff which is a Area denial weapon while having the choice of Condi or Power (its a hybrid) it can also do a decent amount of healing too but thats limited to one skill.

the whole issue is , the Druid using a staff gives up nearly all combat pressure for healing which CAF provides too , the whole idea of active combat is to be active for the team , right now all the staff does is add a CC and spams heals theres no Depth , no synergy with sharpened edges from other trait lines , it does not protect team mates from Burst damage (which would be nice if one skill on the Staff had Aegis on it)

we could make the first Healing weapon deal in sub condition damage while using some skills reactively to protect team mates + heal them and apply a short term support boon , this works perfectly with :

Rune of Altruism(might, 10% boon duration, support fury boons on heal)
Rune of the Monk(boon durations and heals ontop of your heals)
Rune of Perplexity (with the Daze interrupts if staff had some supporting condis it could do effective damage through this rune , for WvW use)

Rune of the Krait ( works perfectly with Sharpening stones and pos Staff 4 if it applied bleeds to help keep condi pressure up , no issues here due to the incomming increase in Resistance boons , from having Revs around using support builds too)

Rune of Grenth ( using Chill on heal Slows foes , increases Cooldowns protects team mates by making sure they don’t take Burst damage too often ,helps those heals become more Valued.)

Rune of Balthazar (if Solar beam caused Burn , we could slot sun spirit too and make a Sun Druid for healing while doing Burns as its main source of damage nothing else)

Rune of the Aristocracy (the Big one , if the Staff is given some kind of Boon maintance , this one makes condi boon builds viable and supportive in more than just healing it will also apply might. including the pet with nature magic and heal as one it makes the druid a lot more Surviable while healing and still doing enough damage to win while roaming or in WvW for Strike teams)

Rune of Svanir ( onther use for Chill to help support Allies by reducing cooldowns of Foes this also makes healing go that extra mile, if only Staff added some conditions or effect or boons)

Rune of Mercy (if the Staff had Access to team Aegis on demand it could pop the skill then use this runes Res speed and extra toughness combined with healing will get anyone from downed back fighting Very fast without having to spam too many healing skills that would limit resources to actually contribute to team fights without having to sit on the back lines doing one thing )

Rune of Lyssa (is other rune that would benift too IF Staff having some conditions or boons on.)

I have not listed Power runes as those will not Benifit staff or improve Team support at all.

it should support heal , apply effects that improve the Value of the heals but it should also deal enough damage to be a threat in PvP aka 2vs2 , as it stands 2 damage specs can still burst down one player and the heals have no effect since its two sources of damage vs 1 , burst after burst so supportive boons are Required to make it even for Pvp conquest or situations where you are forced into these small scale fights.

i could keep going but this is the reason why staff needs more than Just healing.

You could just run druid without a staff.

Anyway I’m giving up here, thanks for the discussion.

I’d rather have them rework astral force generation (seems like they’ll do) and change shortbow auto-attack by removing that stupid positionment condition. If you’re afraid of the bleed stacking too quick, you can always make the weapon slower (while increasing raw damages accordingly) or making it a 2-3 chain attack with normal bleed at the end.

arkealia.2713:

I’d rather have them rework astral force generation (seems like they’ll do) and change shortbow auto-attack by removing that stupid positionment condition. If you’re afraid of the bleed stacking too quick, you can always make the weapon slower (while increasing raw damages accordingly) or making it a 2-3 chain attack with normal bleed at the end.

I’m all for ANY positive SB changes anymore. I keep trying to work with it and I just end up throwing hands in the air.

Puck.9612:

runeblade.7514:

Puck.9612:

runeblade.7514:

No.

We already have enough condi weapons.

We have 2…. and they are both off hand. I guess shortbow technically counts but is very possibly the worst weapon in the game.

• Axe
• Dagger
• Shortbow
• Torch

I count 4. This is out of 9 weapons that rangers currently have.

Oh yeah… that 500ish dps that axe bleeds put out if you land every hit on split blade are pretty intimidating. Axe isn’t a condi weapon, it’s just the best choice out of the crappy choices we were provided with.

I rather that ANet buff Axe instead of making staff a condi weapon.

runeblade.7514:

Puck.9612:

runeblade.7514:

Puck.9612:

runeblade.7514:

No.

We already have enough condi weapons.

We have 2…. and they are both off hand. I guess shortbow technically counts but is very possibly the worst weapon in the game.

• Axe
• Dagger
• Shortbow
• Torch

I count 4. This is out of 9 weapons that rangers currently have.

Oh yeah… that 500ish dps that axe bleeds put out if you land every hit on split blade are pretty intimidating. Axe isn’t a condi weapon, it’s just the best choice out of the crappy choices we were provided with.

I rather that ANet buff Axe instead of making staff a condi weapon.

I think they could manage both. . . o.0

Why you all suggest that “it have to be CHANCE to apply condition”??? Warriors apply 2stacks of burn from LB auto-attack and in additional they can be Fire Projectiles!

Do warriors SwordAA have chance to apply bleed? NO, it apply 10sec bleed from every attack. May be necro? NO! 10sec bleed from every AA too.
May be Eni Pistol? NO! Every attack apply AOE bleed.
Thief? NO!
Revenant? NO!
Elem? NO!
Mesmer? NO!

Every class have 100% chance to apply Condition, and Only Ranger have to be “flanking”.

And now you suggest to make “chance” on staff…

Ranger mechanic already contain TOO MANY IF LOGIC.

If pet Dead, half of traits don’t work.
If pet Dead, some skills not work kitten 4th skill or Bash from GS, that increase Pet’s damage.
If pet more far than 600, then ONLY Condition Clean Utility “Signet of Renewal” goes on cooldown, but does not clean Conditions from you.
If pet far than 300 from you, then some Traits stop working and f2 don’t work on you too.
If You chose ranged PET, then you can forgot about Blind and taunt, because pet will never come so close to target, that those traits will start to work…

And it’s just from top of my head. I believe, that it’s only 10% of overall problems of ranger mechanic.

If they moved the daze from the staff trait onto one of the staff skills and made the staff trait apply burning on auto attack instead as it’s added effect, do people think that the trait would then become fairly mandatory for staff users? Or would it just allow for the possibility of staff being used as a hybrid condi weapon?

CandyHearts.6025:

Vendetta.1958:

Puck.9612:

Vendetta.1958:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Vendetta.1958:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Vendetta.1958:

If you don’t think apoth gear is viable you need to reevaluate your decision to attempt to discuss builds on this forum.

Condition damage armor is pretty useless with a staff that has no damaging conditions on it, wouldn’t you say? Hence, adding conditions to the staff would make Apothecary armor viable for Druid Healing/Condi builds. Unless ofc the goal is to do as little damage as possible.

When discussing builds, I looks for synergies, like damaging conditions and condition damage, they do go together pretty well.

You do know you can press ~ to swap weaponsets right?
So you can equip Condi weapons on one set, and staff in the other.
Throw on some nice apoth and some dire trinkets, a trap maybe, sounds pretty OP to me.

So having 5/15 of your weapon skills do pitiful damage and 4/15 do no damage at all is a good idea to you?

So you do what, swap from A/T or S/T to Staff to heal, building up AF to enter CAF so you can heal even more, all the while doing no damage? Putting zero pressure on your opponent? Yeah, top build. I can see that being roaming meta. You may need to reevaluate your decision to attempt to discuss builds on this forum.

Fashion Mage.3712:

I think it should just stay as a healing/astral force weapon. The shortbow is already there for the ranged condition damage role.

And CAF is already there for a purely healing role. Staff should perform another role other than healing, ie damage. Adding some condi makes it more flexible for all builds.

It sounds like the Druid specialization doesn’t fit what you preordained it to be. If you don’t like playing a healer/support role and ‘doing no damage’ nobody is forcing you to play it:

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

If you want to focus on being the top offense then you probably shouldn’t be selecting the Druid specialization.

But do us all a favor and don’t rant on here demanding that it be changed to perfectly suit whatever build you happen to run.

I don’t think he is trying to make it fit any particular build. He is just trying to make it a useful weapon.

The game has been designed around not needing a dedicated healer, that was one of its biggest selling points. What happens if this experiment fails? Do you realize how much of the PvE content in this game has been toned down to make it easier and more casual? Pretty much all of it.

If it fails do you think they will immediately redesign druid to make it useful? Before you answer that remember that the core ranger has been littered with problems for over 3 years because it would take to much effort to fix them

The best time to try and get things changed is right now while they are already working on it.

PvE is a complete joke.

Whether you like it or not, druid is a complete waste of space in any of the core games PvE no matter which way you slice it. As long as the profession mechanic revolves around healing, and the core games PvE is laughable at best in terms of difficulty, that will be the case.

So let’s now accept this, and move on – lets not water this spec down for the fun parts of this game for the appeasement of a subset of content that will never ever use this spec anyway 8 months from now.

Not to be argumentative. But I honestly feel like you’re speaking from a meta standpoint. I’ve found my uses for it. Probably wouldn’t be up to “meta standards” but duo fractals / dungeons was a lot easier and more fun with Druid. That’s a use, is it not? Or did fun fly out the window and no one told me?

But “fun” is subjective. I find it incredibly fun to go pop spider tonics until I get the giant spider and then zerg dive while shooting at people with the birthday blaster.

Technically you can call that a way to play ranger since I’m usually on my ranger when I do it. Does that mean the ranger class is in a good place since I can have fun doing something that doesn’t help anyone in any game mode?

CandyHearts.6025:

runeblade.7514:

Puck.9612:

runeblade.7514:

Puck.9612:

runeblade.7514:

No.

We already have enough condi weapons.

We have 2…. and they are both off hand. I guess shortbow technically counts but is very possibly the worst weapon in the game.

• Axe
• Dagger
• Shortbow
• Torch

I count 4. This is out of 9 weapons that rangers currently have.

Oh yeah… that 500ish dps that axe bleeds put out if you land every hit on split blade are pretty intimidating. Axe isn’t a condi weapon, it’s just the best choice out of the crappy choices we were provided with.

I rather that ANet buff Axe instead of making staff a condi weapon.

I think they could manage both. . . o.0

Right?!

It seems like the people arguing against conditions on staff don’t understand how this game is played.

Condition damage is the best stat for a healing build to rely on for damage. Power damage uses up all three stats while condition damage only needs one. It is far easier to put out strong healing without making too large of a damage sacrifice by using conditions.

And you will never be able to play a full stop healer in this game. The healer that is taken to raids or even SPVP games will always be the healer that puts out the best heals while sacrificing the least damage.

And the fact we’re talking about the auto attack of staff means that it will be getting used to inflict damage while healing allies anyway. You want to be able to use Solar Beam without sacrificing too much damage. If Solar Beam doesn’t do at least a little damage then your teammates won’t feel the damage loss is worth the heals and will replace you with with an elementalist who can put out good damage numbers while also providing good heals.

Adding burning to staff auto would create good synergy with Ancient Seeds bleed stacks, Sharpened Edges, and Sun Spirit to give the weapon somewhat decent DPS while providing those heals, and would allow you to run axe/torch as your second so you can double cast Bonfire with Quick Draw when you’re in a phase that doesn’t require your sustain healing.

It would be far more viable in all game modes than if Solar Beam simply did next to no power damage in exchange for heals because you had to give up ferocity or precision for healing power.

Ehecatl.9172:

It seems like the people arguing against conditions on staff don’t understand how this game is played.

Condition damage is the best stat for a healing build to rely on for damage. Power damage uses up all three stats while condition damage only needs one. It is far easier to put out strong healing without making too large of a damage sacrifice by using conditions.

And you will never be able to play a full stop healer in this game. The healer that is taken to raids or even SPVP games will always be the healer that puts out the best heals while sacrificing the least damage.

And the fact we’re talking about the auto attack of staff means that it will be getting used to inflict damage while healing allies anyway. You want to be able to use Solar Beam without sacrificing too much damage. If Solar Beam doesn’t do at least a little damage then your teammates won’t feel the damage loss is worth the heals and will replace you with with an elementalist who can put out good damage numbers while also providing good heals.

Adding burning to staff auto would create good synergy with Ancient Seeds bleed stacks, Sharpened Edges, and Sun Spirit to give the weapon somewhat decent DPS while providing those heals, and would allow you to run axe/torch as your second so you can double cast Bonfire with Quick Draw when you’re in a phase that doesn’t require your sustain healing.

It would be far more viable in all game modes than if Solar Beam simply did next to no power damage in exchange for heals because you had to give up ferocity or precision for healing power.

Completely agree with everything you said. It’s fantastic. thank you for wording it so well.

Solar beam is already doing a better job at condition stacking than shortbow. (1,200 range, piercing without trait, no need to flank to cause bleeding, quick pulsations etc) Giving it burning would be overpowered.

Lévis.5489:

Solar beam is already doing a better job at condition stacking than shortbow. (1,200 range, piercing without trait, no need to flank to cause bleeding, quick pulsations etc) Giving it burning would be overpowered.

“Overpowered”….. People keep using this word…. I don’t think it means what you think it means.

Lévis.5489:

Solar beam is already doing a better job at condition stacking than shortbow. (1,200 range, piercing without trait, no need to flank to cause bleeding, quick pulsations etc) Giving it burning would be overpowered.

You shouldn’t point to an under-performing weapon as the bar with which we should measure other potential condition applying weapons. Shortbow is weak and needs improvements, so staff being better at condition application with this change wouldn’t necessarily make it overpowered.

In fact the logic you provided is exactly the reason shortbow is weak. Anet kept nerfing it in an attempt to make us equip the longbow. In the end we didn’t start using longbow until it was buffed appropriately.

Return shortbow’s 1,200 range and increase it’s attack speed to where it was before and maybe it’d be up to snuff with other weapons. But that is an entirely different discussion to be had.

Vendetta.1958:

It sounds like the Druid specialization doesn’t fit what you preordained it to be. If you don’t like playing a healer/support role and ‘doing no damage’ nobody is forcing you to play it:

Irenio CalmonHuang.2048:

If you want to focus on being the top offense then you probably shouldn’t be selecting the Druid specialization.

But do us all a favor and don’t rant on here demanding that it be changed to perfectly suit whatever build you happen to run.

You know you are right, the Druid specialization doesn’t fit what I predicted it to be. However, not a great deal of people would have predicted that it was a pure healer. Oh, you mistake me though, I do enjoy healing (Love my cleric Mace/Shield Guardian) and offensive support, even more so. I don’t like doing no damage though, even though Mace actually does good damage, its nothing if you are in healing spec. That’s one thing I learned from playing healer in fractals is that even though you make the game very smooth and nobody dies, you are contributing nothing to the damage side of things.

You are also correct that I want it be changed to perfectly suit whatever build I happen to run. At the time.

Pure Healer
Condi Healer Hybrid
Pure Condi Roamer
Dual Melee Druid
LB/Staff Shouts
Staff/GS BM
Remorseless Control Crusader PvP
Dedicated Support
Mad Seeds SB
There are so many more too…

I want it to suit any build that is possible to make, so everyone can enjoy it and find it usable for whatever play style they like and so that I can continue experimenting with different builds to find fun ways of using it. It shouldn’t be pigeon-holed into a single one-dimensional healing role.

No I don’t think it should.Adding burning to the autoattackwould make it a pure condi weapon, locking it out from power builds. It already kind of works in condi builds, I think staff should just get minor additional condi damage (like a single bleed on vine surge) and have most of its damage through power dmg.

Adrian Guardian.9480:

No I don’t think it should.Adding burning to the autoattackwould make it a pure condi weapon, locking it out from power builds. It already kind of works in condi builds, I think staff should just get minor additional condi damage (like a single bleed on vine surge) and have most of its damage through power dmg.

No, it would be a hybrid weapon. On power builds the condi damage it puts out would by negligible so it relies on power damage, and on condi builds the power damage would be trivial so it would rely on condi damage.

To be a pure condi weapon it would need condition applications on more skills and would need a skill that allows for a condi burst. Staff doesn’t have either just like it doesn’t have any power burst potential.

We just want some small, sustainable condition applications so that when you switch to staff on a condi healer build you don’t lose all DPS for 10 seconds.

Vendetta.1958:

> Due to the 10 second weapon swamp, you can’t have a pure healing weapon since you can’t switch on the fly between when you need damage or healing.

That is the worst argument I have ever heard.

You should use some skill and read the situation in which you are in.

1) You always need/desire DPS; its never a bad thing to have.

2) You don’t always need healing; its only needed when there is someone that needs heals. (Seems obvious right?)

Example scenario where having a pure healing weapon with a 10 second weapon swap wont work: You switch to staff because your party needed some heals but then another party member heals up the group to full and your heals are no longer needed. You now have to wait 10 seconds healing away in a situation where your heals may completely be going to waste until you can switch back to your DPS weapon to contribute more meaningfully to the fight.

TLDR: You don’t want to be caught with your pants down for up to 10 seconds at a time.

Ehecatl.9172:

Adrian Guardian.9480:

No I don’t think it should.Adding burning to the autoattackwould make it a pure condi weapon, locking it out from power builds. It already kind of works in condi builds, I think staff should just get minor additional condi damage (like a single bleed on vine surge) and have most of its damage through power dmg.

No, it would be a hybrid weapon. On power builds the condi damage it puts out would by negligible so it relies on power damage, and on condi builds the power damage would be trivial so it would rely on condi damage.

To be a pure condi weapon it would need condition applications on more skills and would need a skill that allows for a condi burst. Staff doesn’t have either just like it doesn’t have any power burst potential.

We just want some small, sustainable condition applications so that when you switch to staff on a condi healer build you don’t lose all DPS for 10 seconds.

Exactly. And for competitive play, you still need to maintain good pressure on people, even if you are supporting allies, a single stack of burning can do that while not being OP.

Wow this topic sort of exploded. Not sure what all the aggression is for… I just thought adding a burn worked thematically with the skill and would push for more diverse builds than just power.

Hoping for more thoughtful debate than mud slinging!

Adrian Guardian.9480:

No I don’t think it should.Adding burning to the autoattackwould make it a pure condi weapon, locking it out from power builds. It already kind of works in condi builds, I think staff should just get minor additional condi damage (like a single bleed on vine surge) and have most of its damage through power dmg.

Is this a serious post or very subtle sarcasm?

Just give it 1 bleed on a 20 sec cooldown, problem solved
*trolololol’s away

Calling it now.

“Solar Beam: Fire a concentrated beam of light, damaging the target foe and healing allies inside of the beam. Create a small nova that heals allies on the final hit.”

<|:^)

I’d like us to not get conditions on the staff since it would simply push Druid into only a Condi build and anything other then Apothecary’s would be wasted. Pure weapon sets usually mean better build diversity. As it stands right now you can still run an Apothecary build, quite effectively, too. But you can also run Zealot’s, Cleric’s Celestial, Berserker and so many more.

I wish the staff had more damage, yes, but I don’t think conditions is the right way to go since it would limit build diversity.

Diruuo.6314:

I’d like us to not get conditions on the staff since it would simply push Druid into only a Condi build and anything other then Apothecary’s would be wasted. Pure weapon sets usually mean better build diversity. As it stands right now you can still run an Apothecary build, quite effectively, too. But you can also run Zealot’s, Cleric’s Celestial, Berserker and so many more.

I wish the staff had more damage, yes, but I don’t think conditions is the right way to go since it would limit build diversity.

Question: How is running Apothecary with Staff at all effective?
Answer: It’s not. At all.

Question: Why not?
Answer: Because Staff has no damaging conditions and Apothecary gear has no Precision (for Sharpened Edges or Sigils) or Power.

Question: How can we make Apothecary gear as effective as Zerker or Zealots?
Answer: Add damaging conditions.

Question: Won’t this make only condi builds effective?
Answer: No, if you only add burning to it, which scales with Condition damage very well, maintain a decent power coefficient, you can work out the stacking so that they will do about equal damage. Meaning that all armor types and builds can be effective. Not only that, but Zealots gear with Might stacks will also be very very good.

End of conversation.

No.

While it fits thematically, I don’t think it’s a good idea. Burning is the highest damage condition, so it couldn’t be ignored and power damage would have to be lowered.

Currently Staff is an alternative to both Longbow(unreflectable) and Greatsword(mobility), which are both power based.
In fact, Staff might even already be an alternative to Shortbow if you use Sharpened Edges with it paired and a high crit chance. 66% chance on crit to cause 3s bleed averages as 2s bleed on crit and Staff hits very often and very reliably.

If you REALLY have to make this into a condition damage weapon, let Astral Wisp and Cosmic Wisp (Lingering Light trait) cause burning to nearby enemies.

Solar Beam should get burning to make condi support builds effective, adding diversity to the Druid and versatility. Here is the math.

Stats:
Staff max damage: 1111
Solar Beam pulse: Every 0.41s (That’s what our SB used to be)
Power co-efficient: 0.3

Number of Strikes per calculation: 100

Duration for 100 strikes: 41 seconds

Armor used for calculation: 2600 = Heavy

Power Damage = (1111) * (Power) * (0.3) / (2600)

Critical damage = (Crit Damage * Power Damage)

Total Damage = ((100 – Crit chance * strikes) * Power Damage) + ((Crit chance * strikes) * Critical Damage)

Zerker gear:

• Power damage = 1111 * 2382 * 0.3 / 2600 = 305.35
• Critical damage = (2.14 * 305) = 653.45
• Total damage for zerker = (50 × 305.35) + (50 × 653.45) = 47939.5
• Total average damage per AA chain = 1438.2

Apothecary:

• Power damage = 1111 * 1000 * 0.3 / 2600 = 128.2
• Critical Damage = 1.5 * 128.2 = 192.3
• Total damage for Apothecary = (96 × 128.2) + (4 × 192.3) = 13076.4
• Total average damage per AA chain = 392.3

So, Zerker does 3.6x the damage that Apothecary does, but that is to be expected since it is the most damaging stat set. So Apothecary will never ever be ‘viable’ to use with the staff unless it has some conditions added in. It is basically pointless to use without them, but could be a great set for Druid if there were conditions to take advantage of the condi. Let’s look again using burning on Solar Beam with 960 condition damage, all ascended Apothecary gear. Let’s also assume that we want Apothecary to deal significant damage so as to at least be in the same realm with Zerker for damage, but it cannot be too much because of the healing power and the sustain it provides. We are building for Support after all. Let’s go with 50% of the damage of zerker as a decent place.

Burning @ 960 condi damage = 280 damage per tick.

So, if we were to add 0.5s of burning to each pulse of Solar Beam, it would end up being an additional 420 damage per cycle for Apothecary and an additional 196.5 for Zerker.

Apothecary with Burning per AA cycle = 392.3 + 420 = 812
Zerker with Burning per AA cycle = 1438.2 + 196.5 = 1634.7

So, the addition of Burning only added 12% more damage to the zerker, but it added 51% more damage to the Apothecary. Bringing the Apothecary to half of the zerker damage! Perhaps more or less is required to find balance, but something like this is definitely required for the staff to make condition support builds effective.

Apothecary has been near unused in 99.5% of the game since it was introduced, lets make it useful and give Druid another ‘viable’ set of armor by giving Solar Beam some condi damage, not too over the top, but enough so you can at least pressure someone with it or contribute in a meaningful way to your teams damage while healing them. It has no precision so cannot be used with Sharpened Edges to stack bulk bleeds and any build that does bring precision cannot bring 1400 healing power.

Putting a burn on Solar Beam makes Druid and Staff better and more versatile.

Apothecary would be on par or better than Cleric armor too, (cleric would do like 40 damage more per AA cycle!) even better still with other ways to add conditions like Sun spirit, all while supporting the team. It just gives more options to be able to play Healing/Support Druid with conditions and still contribute damage to the team.

Something like this would be amazing fun then too:
Dual Staff Healing & Condition Druid
Quickdraw Variant

If only adding burn to it wouldnt lower its power numbers on damage. Because there is no condition damage on cleric gear. So healing build druids shouldn’t be forced to suffer simply to appeal to the DPS meta community.

Knighthonor.4061:

If only adding burn to it wouldnt lower its power numbers on damage. Because there is no condition damage on cleric gear. So healing build druids shouldn’t be forced to suffer simply to appeal to the DPS meta community.

Serious, mate, open your mind a little and you will see. It’s got nothing to do with DPS meta… It will make so many more Druid builds usable. I’m talking about Apothecary for gods sake, how meta is that? Did you read any of my post at all? I’m betting not, you have it stuck in your head that it is a bad idea and there is no changing your mind is there?

Healing builds will not be forced to suffer by adding a burn to the AA, how could you possibly think that? Please explain how healing will suffer by having a single stack of burning on Solar Beam.

Clerics has no condi damage, so it will not benefit much, nor will zerker, but it will make Druid condi builds usable and Apothecary will be so much fun, you can heal and deal condition damage.

Adding a 0.5s burn to each pulse of Solar Beam will bring Apothecary damage up to equal Cleric damage, both with burn. It will only add 12% more damage to Zerker. That is all.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Knighthonor.4061:

If only adding burn to it wouldnt lower its power numbers on damage. Because there is no condition damage on cleric gear. So healing build druids shouldn’t be forced to suffer simply to appeal to the DPS meta community.

Serious, mate, open your mind a little and you will see. It’s got nothing to do with DPS meta… It will make so many more Druid builds usable. I’m talking about Apothecary for gods sake, how meta is that? Did you read any of my post at all? I’m betting not, you have it stuck in your head that it is a bad idea and there is no changing your mind is there?

Healing builds will not be forced to suffer by adding a burn to the AA, how could you possibly think that? Clerics has no condi damage, so it will not benefit much, nor will zerker, but it will make Druid condi builds usable and Apothecary will be so much fun, you can heal and deal condition damage.

Adding a 0.5s burn to each pulse of Solar Beam will bring Apothecary damage up to equal Cleric damage, both with burn. It will only add 12% more damage to Zerker. That is all.

If thats the case, lets add conditions to long bow as well. Lets add to GS as well so conditions builds can work for those as well….

Knighthonor.4061:

If thats the case, lets add conditions to long bow as well. Lets add to GS as well so conditions builds can work for those as well….

Argumentum ad absurdum.

Those weapons are already established as Power weapons whereas the Staff is not yet fully completed in design. This is our chance to have something that is versatile and not stuck in one thing or another.

Knighthonor.4061:

… healing build druids shouldn’t be forced to suffer simply to appeal to the DPS meta community.

Can I please hear your reasoning behind healing builds suffering by having a burn on Solar Beam?

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Question: How is running Apothecary with Staff at all effective?
Answer: It’s not. At all.

Come on, you’re a theory crafter specialist. You know it is.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJAWVjEqQNL2yCesAVLWMEM4u6YNt28uSdtAmAw6q0NiuA-TJRFABws/AWlBA4JAk8lAAA

borya.2964:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Question: How is running Apothecary with Staff at all effective?
Answer: It’s not. At all.

Come on, you’re a theory crafter specialist. You know it is.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJAWVjEqQNL2yCesAVLWMEM4u6YNt28uSdtAmAw6q0NiuA-TJRFABws/AWlBA4JAk8lAAA

It’s not really effective unless the weapon itself applies a condition, it just will not do enough damage, imo. I think it can work, but its not going to be good unless something is added.

btw, I like your videos on youtube

Weird one that could be amazing if the staff had some condi.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Build-Dual-Staff-Condi-Healer-Druid

Knighthonor.4061:

If thats the case, lets add conditions to long bow as well. Lets add to GS as well so conditions builds can work for those as well….

Those are power weapons, Ranger lacks a long range condition option. There’s no reason for Staff to be so focused on healing, it’s limiting and boring and Celestial Avatar fills the same role better.

Other specialisations such as Chrono or Reaper attempt to cater to different builds to some extent. Druid could too.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

borya.2964:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Question: How is running Apothecary with Staff at all effective?
Answer: It’s not. At all.

Come on, you’re a theory crafter specialist. You know it is.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJAWVjEqQNL2yCesAVLWMEM4u6YNt28uSdtAmAw6q0NiuA-TJRFABws/AWlBA4JAk8lAAA

It’s not really effective unless the weapon itself applies a condition, it just will not do enough damage, imo. I think it can work, but its not going to be good unless something is added.
Weird one that could be amazing if the staff had some condi.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Build-Dual-Staff-Condi-Healer-Druid

You can’t take the settler’s amulet to make damage, you take it to be a condi/support healer. It means that your primary role is to take care of your mate with CA and have some pressure when you don’t need to use it while having the sutain needed.

1.) You have enough healing power to make a good use of CA.

2.) You’ll have the pressure on SB and staff : You can use Ancient Seeds in a reliabale way cuz you know that you will proc it only on SB or on weapon swap. You can take Sun Spirit instead of SE. You ‘re perma fury, so you will possibly inflict stacks of poison, burn, torment, bleeds and immo when swapping staff. It’s quite enough to pressure your opponent for the next 10 sec, you can also keep Entangle and/or MT for the staff use.

3.) You have movement speed, mobility, an evade, and endurance regen, .3k armor, enough cleans and a break stun that save your Natural Stride.

I’m not saying that staff doesn’t need some conditions, but between it can’t work “at all” and “it can work”, there is an ocean. And actually, my build work even without changes in this specific role, condi/supprot healer.

borya.2964:

~snip~

I may have been exaggerating when I said “at all”.

as others have said, we have enough condi weapons. They aren’t perfect, and some are in need of attention, like axe and shortbow, but I would rather those weapons see some love than putting effort into making staff yet another condi-ish weapon (cuz it cant be pure condi AND heal, that just screeeeeams OP apothecary trapper build)

Staff should just be a very strong hybrid utility weapon, and it is almost there: it has a water field that blocks, a blast with mobility, an immob/cleanse, a non-reflecting auto…

but also needs:

• a general damage buff (either through burn on auto, pulse damage on convergence to enemies passing though it, A DOT on wisp)
• Maybe Slow (on convergence if an enemy is passing through it),
• a long 1-2 stack of poison (not necessarily for damage, but for the healing debuff, on vine),
• and blind (on wisp)

Knox.8462:

Knighthonor.4061:

If thats the case, lets add conditions to long bow as well. Lets add to GS as well so conditions builds can work for those as well….

Those are power weapons, Ranger lacks a long range condition option. There’s no reason for Staff to be so focused on healing, it’s limiting and boring and Celestial Avatar fills the same role better.

Other specialisations such as Chrono or Reaper attempt to cater to different builds to some extent. Druid could too.

Well you want ranged Conditions weapons ask them to change long bow into a condition weapon….

and Druid does cater to a different build. Far different than anything the ranger been able to build. Which is a major support/CCer ….

Knighthonor.4061:

… healing build druids shouldn’t be forced to suffer simply to appeal to the DPS meta community.

Can I please hear your reasoning behind healing builds suffering by having a burn on Solar Beam?

I don’t understand you lot. They are still working on Staff, its not final yet. Adding a single burn stack on Solar Beam will make it usable for Condi OR Power builds, it will take literally no effort to do it. There is no downside. There is only benefit. It’s not OP and it only adds to the weapon as a whole….

Holland.9351:

No.

While it fits thematically, I don’t think it’s a good idea. Burning is the highest damage condition, so it couldn’t be ignored and power damage would have to be lowered.

Currently Staff is an alternative to both Longbow(unreflectable) and Greatsword(mobility), which are both power based.
In fact, Staff might even already be an alternative to Shortbow if you use Sharpened Edges with it paired and a high crit chance. 66% chance on crit to cause 3s bleed averages as 2s bleed on crit and Staff hits very often and very reliably.

If you REALLY have to make this into a condition damage weapon, let Astral Wisp and Cosmic Wisp (Lingering Light trait) cause burning to nearby enemies.

That would be cool! :o I didn’t even bother to think about adding condi to those. Fun stuff!

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Fashion Mage.3712:

I think it should just stay as a healing/astral force weapon. The shortbow is already there for the ranged condition damage role.

And CAF is already there for a purely healing role. Staff should perform another role other than healing, ie damage. Adding some condi makes it more flexible for all builds.

Celestial form isn’t a weapon, and adding condition damage means something else is going to be taken away. Either way, the staff isn’t really there for healing; not directly at least. The staff is mainly there for generating astral force and kiting; its healing isn’t very significant.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Fashion Mage.3712:

I think it should just stay as a healing/astral force weapon. The shortbow is already there for the ranged condition damage role.

And CAF is already there for a purely healing role. Staff should perform another role other than healing, ie damage. Adding some condi makes it more flexible for all builds.

Celestial form isn’t a weapon, and adding condition damage means something else is going to be taken away. Either way, the staff isn’t really there for healing; not directly at least. The staff is mainly there for generating astral force and kiting; its healing isn’t very significant.

As mentioned earlier, Celestial Avatar Form IS a weapon—it replaces your weapon skills, and you cannot use your other weapon/s while in CAF. Staff should not have the sole purpose of building up your CAF bar. Quite frankly, it seems counterintuitive that you should need to heal with your weapon in order to …heal more with your other “weapon”? Regardless of the concept, staff needs more synergy with other Ranger trait lines, which will still make up 2/3 of a Druid’s build. Adding conditions/boons is one way of accomplishing this.

Solar Bean doesn’t cause burning.

Also it should be a grass type too :P

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/powerlisting/images/0/0d/Bulbasaur_SolarBeam.png/revision/latest?cb=20121019152334

Scrimschaw.5784:

Fashion Mage.3712:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Fashion Mage.3712:

I think it should just stay as a healing/astral force weapon. The shortbow is already there for the ranged condition damage role.

And CAF is already there for a purely healing role. Staff should perform another role other than healing, ie damage. Adding some condi makes it more flexible for all builds.

Celestial form isn’t a weapon, and adding condition damage means something else is going to be taken away. Either way, the staff isn’t really there for healing; not directly at least. The staff is mainly there for generating astral force and kiting; its healing isn’t very significant.

As mentioned earlier, Celestial Avatar Form IS a weapon—it replaces your weapon skills, and you cannot use your other weapon/s while in CAF. Staff should not have the sole purpose of building up your CAF bar. Quite frankly, it seems counterintuitive that you should need to heal with your weapon in order to …heal more with your other “weapon”? Regardless of the concept, staff needs more synergy with other Ranger trait lines, which will still make up 2/3 of a Druid’s build. Adding conditions/boons is one way of accomplishing this.

Celestial Avatar Form is a form, as the name states. It is part of the mechanic that the specialization provides. I don’t see anyone calling Death Shroud a weapon.
The sole purpose of the staff isn’t just building up your CAF bar, it also provides excellent mobility/kiting via #3 and #4. A 1200 range dash on a 12 second cooldown is ridiculous mobility.

Come on people, Heimskarl just provided the actual math behind the change and showed that it would only serve the close the DPS gap between Clerics and Apothecary druids so that BOTH gear sets benefit roughly the same from using the staff’s auto attack.

Saying no to this change is basically just telling the people who want to run a conditon based healing build that they can’t just because you don’t like the idea of condition users being viable in a healing role.

You’re saying no to build diversity.

@Aomine

That was my favorite move in Pokemon. I actually taught it to my butterfree so it could put rock types to sleep and then one shot them with solar beam. YOU THINK YOU CAN ROCK TRHOW MY BUTTERFLY? Think again!

Fashion Mage.3712:

Scrimschaw.5784:

Fashion Mage.3712:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Fashion Mage.3712:

I think it should just stay as a healing/astral force weapon. The shortbow is already there for the ranged condition damage role.

And CAF is already there for a purely healing role. Staff should perform another role other than healing, ie damage. Adding some condi makes it more flexible for all builds.

Celestial form isn’t a weapon, and adding condition damage means something else is going to be taken away. Either way, the staff isn’t really there for healing; not directly at least. The staff is mainly there for generating astral force and kiting; its healing isn’t very significant.

As mentioned earlier, Celestial Avatar Form IS a weapon—it replaces your weapon skills, and you cannot use your other weapon/s while in CAF. Staff should not have the sole purpose of building up your CAF bar. Quite frankly, it seems counterintuitive that you should need to heal with your weapon in order to …heal more with your other “weapon”? Regardless of the concept, staff needs more synergy with other Ranger trait lines, which will still make up 2/3 of a Druid’s build. Adding conditions/boons is one way of accomplishing this.

Celestial Avatar Form is a form, as the name states. It is part of the mechanic that the specialization provides. I don’t see anyone calling Death Shroud a weapon.
The sole purpose of the staff isn’t just building up your CAF bar, it also provides excellent mobility/kiting via #3 and #4. A 1200 range dash on a 12 second cooldown is ridiculous mobility.

Let’s not argue over nomenclature. The point is, that when you use CAF, your other weapon skills are not available. If Staff and CAF both do healing and poor direct damage, then CAF is just an uber healing staff you are swapping to. They should not be the same role, Staff should be hybrid damage with mobility and off-healing to build AF, then you can swap into CAF and really pump out the heals.

Ehecatl.9172:

Come on people, Heimskarl just provided the actual math behind the change and showed that it would only serve the close the DPS gap between Clerics and Apothecary druids so that BOTH gear sets benefit roughly the same from using the staff’s auto attack.

Saying no to this change is basically just telling the people who want to run a conditon based healing build that they can’t just because you don’t like the idea of condition users being viable in a healing role.

You’re saying no to build diversity.

Exactly. Staff having condi just makes Settler and Apothecary possible to use for diversity of builds and play styles. No need to be stuck with Cleric to heal, you can heal and set the enemy on fire at the same time as well as have awesome mobility.

This build looks amazingly fun to me for playing with mates in WvW
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/Build-Dual-Staff-Condi-Healer-Druid

Ehecatl.9172:

Come on people, Heimskarl just provided the actual math behind the change and showed that it would only serve the close the DPS gap between Clerics and Apothecary druids so that BOTH gear sets benefit roughly the same from using the staff’s auto attack.

Saying no to this change is basically just telling the people who want to run a conditon based healing build that they can’t just because you don’t like the idea of condition users being viable in a healing role.

You’re saying no to build diversity.

I absolutely agree. Open up Staff, our ONLY support weapon at the moment and the weapon with the strongest synergy with Druid, to hybrid condition builds if people wish to use Apothecary’s on their Druid. Currently both its healing and damage are lackluster anyway—there is no need to nerf the weapon to add small amounts of condition damage to a few attacks to support build diversity. Considering CAF 5 and the trait Ancient Seeds are compatible with condition builds, it seems silly not to open up Druid’s main weapon to condition builds as well. Again, it doesn’t need to be anything huge—it just needs to help close the gap between different healing stat sets.

I really like the idea of Solar Beam doing a single stack of burn on the third pulse. If it’s a very short duration, it’ll only tick once per application.

And it should be very short, keeping in mind that it’s a very rapid AA. Solar Beam shouldn’t be able to get any higher than a stack or two with a single tick.

I agree it would add damage utility to the weapon that you could build for (and be very conditional at that), so it wouldn’t be a focus.

It’d still primarily be a healing weapon. It makes sense thematically.

I like the idea, but I can see it being hard to implement and balance between doing damage, healing, and the addition of a powerful condition on the AA.

Personally, I really do hope it’s something that can be done though. It sounds awesome.

CETheLucid.3964:

I really like the idea of Solar Beam doing a single stack of burn on the third pulse. If it’s a very short duration, it’ll only tick once per application.

And it should be very short, keeping in mind that it’s a very rapid AA. Solar Beam shouldn’t be able to get any higher than a stack or two with a single tick.

I agree it would add damage utility to the weapon that you could build for (and be very conditional at that), so it wouldn’t be a focus.

It’d still primarily be a healing weapon. It makes sense thematically.

I like the idea, but I can see it being hard to implement and balance between doing damage, healing, and the addition of a powerful condition on the AA.

Personally, I really do hope it’s something that can be done though. It sounds awesome.

I really think a 0.5s burn per pulse would be good, that makes it so it can only sustain 1 stack and as soon as you stop attacking, the burns will stop also.