Guild Wars 2

Well I have never made a thread before but I guess I will now. I see a lot of frustration in the forums, and as a result there are many observations, debates, and suggestions regarding the state of the profession. This is all good discussion as it helps us all learn or realize the class.

However I do notice that some feel that devs (Jon Peters) promised us a “significant” improvement. Also thrown around is reference to the A-net definition of a ranger, which is often seen as inaccurate (I have argued against this). Upon re-reading the Dec.14th patch notes, I noticed some addition talk on class balance and ranger I hadn’t seen around as often, so I just want to bring these to light as well. I’m sure some of you have already read this, but I haven’t so I am assuming there are others like me. The statements are near the bottom.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first#post1061889

From this I get several things, though others might differ in interpretation.

1. There will be no “significant improvment” as a major buff, as some seem to anticipate before every patch. The Dec.14th patch is probably as big as it gets when it comes to class balance. (Rereading the actual ranger notes I did notice a lot of buffs myself). Gradual minimal change is what will happen, as A-net seems very conservative when it comes to class balance.

2. The pets are intentionally important to the class, and they are showing no signs of changing in regards to this. They want us to combine our skills with the pet, making them just as important as weapon choice or utility choice, essentially part of your build. For the best results as a ranger in combat you have to manage them and choose wisely. There DOES appear to be a possible reference to the ranger being weaker because having a pet, a point that I earlier argued against. It looks like I was wrong on that point. However, in consideration of this, it seems A-net believes it has given the pet adequate ability to compensate for this theoretical “nerf”. They believe the pet is the supplement that makes up for this when used right. With buffs to pets in the last two patches, it also appears they are strengthening pets maybe?

3. The ranger appears to have been intended to be a jack of all trades. In this statement, it never says the ranger is the BEST at anything, but that they are ABLE to do a bit of everything(evasion, mobility, direct/condition damage, melee/range. An earlier statement most refer to states the ranger as “unparalleled archers” seems to contradict the december statement. Maybe this statement clarifies that they may not have the most damage, but the most utility/ability with the bow? That would contradict however with the warrior statment on the same patch, impling warriors cant do more damage than rangers at range. Is this true? What about killshot? This brings about a lot of debate about ranger DPS, but I can agree that warriors can outdo us in ranged damage. An answer to complaints on how weak some claim the ranger to be in comparison of ____ to profession _: We aren’t meant to excel in one area, but have access to many viable and varying builds. Maybe this implies that a balanced build should be strived for, instead of a all-in-type build that won’t be able to match the ability of a class with a similar build type. Engi’s and Ele’s are stated as highly versatile in the patch, which is notable.

This is the quote I see the most in favor of the failure of the ranger:

“Rangers rely on a keen eye, a steady hand, and the power of nature itself. Unparalleled archers, rangers are capable of bringing down foes from a distance with their bows. With traps, nature spirits, and a stable of loyal pets at their command, rangers can adapt to any situation.”

This further supports a view of the ranger intended as being a “jack of all trades”. The real debate from here is the effectiveness of bows compared to thief and warrior. This is highly arguable, and because of that, it is nowhere near “unparalleled”.

I think this can be a good topic to discuss how the ranger meets/fails expectations/guidelines and if we get lucky maybe we can get input from a dev. Overall, we may gain insight into how we should effectively play the class.

TL;DR: Please read quotes and discuss ranger expectations and guidelines.

WoW makes us think that classes that can fill different roles (druid, paladin?) can also fulfill any of these roles just as good as classes who were originally designed to one of these roles (all healing specced healer classes in wow are about equal, as can all dps specced classes be, (the difference in dps is a few %) and all classes that can tank can do that about equal as well)

this however, in my opinion is a huge flaw in a game design and was not intended from the start from blizzard. However if a class is designed as a jack-of-all-trades / – master-of-none most people simply dont get that it actually CAN’T be “best” at anything (or at least it shouldnt, if the game design doesnt fail), which still doesnt mean its useless or it couldnt beat other classes.

when it comes to survival or support, ranger always gets compared to guardians, when it comes do condition damage it gets compared to necros, when it comes to burst he gets compared to thief, this fact is just amazing when everyone should know that it obviously cant be better or near as good in these points as the compared class.

for most players, anets description of the ranger reads as “oh, sniper with pet + utilitys, neat” But still i would say they are unparalleled archers, because using your skills right you should beat everything at range combat except maybe a mesmer, who however is not an archer. Problem is that most times you wont be able to stay away from your enemy.

I would agree with you. I think they go by what they stated pretty well. My only thing is that they claimed rangers can do more damage than a warrior from range. I can agree a ranger can outplay the warrior at range, but damage I’m not so sure. I like the jack of all trades view though.

when did they say that we could do more damage than a warrior?

and also i like the idea that a warrior coul actually be a better “archer” than a ranger, since it is his profession (in ancient times there were no “archers” or “warriors” they had to learn both, in most cultures at least) and many games have a ranger as well as some type of archer class, where the archer class obviously outshines the ranger in terms of ranged combat.

It’s in the link if you scroll up above the ranger statement. I think warrior is the first class listed.

I personally don’t mind if the warrior does more damage than us at range, I am just wondering why they seem to have different views on the matter. Which is supposed to be true? It causes some frustration on forums.

Thanks for the link, didnt aw this. “They can still do some decent damage at range, but they aren’t as good at it as the Ranger (with their pet)”

this is true, if you count in the pets dps, problem here is still the pet ai, not the classes. and warrior does more ranged dmg if the rangers pet is dead/disabled which i think is intended this way.

I hit 80 on my ranger about 2 weeks ago, so by no means am I master at the class. I can say, however, that I can hold my own pretty well. I’ve been playing games for a long time, and I have played either minion master/hunter (read: pets) type classes in other games pretty consistently.

I WANT to be a jack of all trades. I ENJOY having utility and the ability to be able to do just about everything. I don’t argue about who is at the top of the DPS charts, who’s not pulling their weight, etc etc. I want to see the team succeed, and as a ranger I feel I can help with this, no matter the situation.

However, the point of pets does come up (as usual). My pets are… very flimsy. I want to be able to send them into the situation and have them do damage or tank for me. It’s the point of having a pet, right? Granted, pets shouldn’t be a new Guardian or Thief, but I think ANet forgets that pets don’t dodge. Pets don’t use self-preservation abilities (most of them, anyway). I HAVE seen pets go down in a single blow, or even porcine pets go down in two hits.

I know ANet wants us to control our pets, as a truly skilled ranger will control his pet to provide the maximum benefit. And I don’t want a pet like WoW’s pet, which in dungeons felt much like… well, nothing. After he goes in, well, he’s in there doing his attack while I’m in the back focusing on my gun shots. Pets SHOULDN’T be mindless like that. But pets need a better way to survive.

With the current AI, when I’m doing PvE dungeons, when I tell my pet to come back to me to try and avoid an AoE attack, the pet simply either doesn’t come back to me until it’s done doing… whatever it is it’s doing, or there’s not enough time to avoid the AoE. Well, how do the players avoid the AoE? By DODGING. Maybe eat it with Aegis or Protection. But pets (in general) can’t survive through it. Ranged pets are also at a disadvantage with this, but I’ll admit not as bad, because the ranged AoEs in dungeons are generally weaker than the melee AoEs.

I don’t really want a class overhaul at all. I love my Ranger the way he is. The way he was INTENDED. I have utility, I have fields, I have mobility. All I’d like to see is a bit of tweaking to the pet AI. Perhaps when I tell my pet to return, they get a speed buff for one second (maybe even half a second), maybe it makes them invulnerable for that amount of time, just as a player dodging, to increase the survivability of the pet. Also, when telling my pet to return to me, it should halt any action they are taking, as the return action always takes precedence. This means that we still have to be cognizant of our pets and their actions, while adding a lot of potential survivability to the pets in the hands of a skilled Ranger.

That’s what you wanted ANet, isn’t it?

Jack of all trades is really the best way to design the ranger class, which is why WoW’s version of a hunter is full of fail.

I just wish they’d do something about the pets and about the rate of fire on the Longbow #1 (which is also a problem for warriors and a problem for pistols on Engi and Thief).

Is this about balance? Is the ranger class balanced verses all other DPS ranged classes? We really can’t answer this question, I think Dev needs to. They have the statistics, do we DPS in total as well as other ranged classes (pet included)? Do we kill as well as other classes? Jon?

Honestly, I can complain about not killing folks, but I’m not exactly spec’d for killing, I’m spec’d more for survival. Hence I always call myself and Assist DPS. I help others kill people.

However, not everyone is spec’d like me. So if Dev is happy with our comparisons behind the scene, then they should tell us, so we can shut up and play this class or swap to another “perceived” better class.

Rangers rely on a keen eye, a steady hand, and the power of nature itself. Unparalleled archers, rangers are capable of bringing down foes from a distance with their bows. With traps, nature spirits, and a stable of loyal pets at their command, rangers can adapt to any situation

The problem with this quote is

• We’re not unparalleled. My Ranged DPS is not as strong as other classes. When the Warrior in my group is getting 20+ Kill Shots (while not being built for class cannon), a little piece of my Ranger dies.
• We’re crippled by our stable of “loyal pets.”
• Our Spirits mind as well not even exist in our lists of Utilities. Like our pets, they are dead on their back more often than not.

I personally am a fan of how Pet’s were handled in World of Warcraft. They’re fluid, you have access to a wide variety of commands, their special skills are fluid and painless to use, you can Trait them to be how you want them to be and most importantly, they’re not dead all of the time. They’re also fun to tame.

If a good chunk of my personal damage is being reduced because of my Pet, then I don’t want them to be a flimsy, lifeless corpse I drag around in Dungeons/WvW. They need to be an attachment of me. Not an irritating tumor on my side.

I can see the ranger being at least on par when it comes to bows (archers), but it is not really unparalleled. It just seems like an exaggeration. I don’t see many warriors run bow, and thiefs that do don’t really stand out either, so then again maybe this has some truth to it? At least half if not more rangers use the bow, does this translate to the ranger’s archery skill being better than others? Not sure about that answer.

About Pets and Spirits, I think they can be useful, despite “ai issues” or whatever. I can see a problem in their ability to survive though. I know there are those who can make them last long enough to count, I surely can, but many rangers argue that the health is not enough. If they increased the health of spirits that would help them. At the same time, if you play them right, out of the way of danger, either dodging them out of aoe or placing them out of danger, they will survive much longer. With pets, I think if a dodge is implemented that would satisfy many. Maybe put a dodge into f3 and put it on a short cooldown? Personally, I think pets currently fill their intended role. There is always room for improvement though.

Jazenn.7526:

I can see the ranger being at least on par when it comes to bows (archers), but it is not really unparalleled. It just seems like an exaggeration. I don’t see many warriors run bow, and thiefs that do don’t really stand out either, so then again maybe this has some truth to it? At least half if not more rangers use the bow, does this translate to the ranger’s archery skill being better than others? Not sure about that answer.

About Pets and Spirits, I think they can be useful, despite “ai issues” or whatever. I can see a problem in their ability to survive though. I know there are those who can make them last long enough to count, I surely can, but many rangers argue that the health is not enough. If they increased the health of spirits that would help them. At the same time, if you play them right, out of the way of danger, either dodging them out of aoe or placing them out of danger, they will survive much longer. With pets, I think if a dodge is implemented that would satisfy many. Maybe put a dodge into f3 and put it on a short cooldown? Personally, I think pets currently fill their intended role. There is always room for improvement though.

I really have issues with pet pathing, especially in wvwvw, when you have to switch targets on a moments notice, your pet may never get to where it is suppose to go. Therefore, its pretty useless. I see it all the time, folks rotate on the field of battle, run forward, dump their cooldowns then run back. My pet’s running all over the battle doing much of nothing as folks ebb and flow from the front line to the back line.

If someone moves out of your range, the pet should start to return to you immediately. Or when you switch targets, it should move to the new target. This doesn’t happen with enough regularity.

In WvWvW, pets are useless, ~40% of your dps is missing because either your shooting at someone up on the walls, or your shooting at someone down below from the wall. What does your pet do during this time? it sure as hell isn’t attacking. It’s just sitting there looking at you or running back and forth through all the area effects around you because it thinks getting hit by arrows is fun. And when the wall is not involved, the stupid pet is just running after the target like if he’s playing a game instead of actually hitting the target doing damage. Then you use an f2 ability just to see him stop for 3 seconds to do his little animation kitten and let the target move out of range. I still say remove pets, the system is flawed and if they are not going to fix it, then remove it! Personally, I think the current state of pets is a joke and are useless. In PvE they have some usefulness, but only in PvE, once you do dungeons, they are useless again!

People shouldn’t be basing any balance issues on a flavor text description of the class calling us “unparalleled archers”. That’s silly and I wish people would stop using that quote.

That said, we have major balance issues due to the broken pet mechanic, some crummy weapon skills and traits that don’t gel well. Warriors are raised in comparison often cause they are just so much more polished and effective than we are and there bow skills hit harder and are nicer. Really though I think we should be comparing ourselves to thieves, who are supposed to be our counterpart scout class. They hit harder, get tons of escapes, awesome utility and out class us in all areas. Our combined weapon/pet damage should be higher than the thief, (considering they get way more escape/utility) but it’s not even close. The pet needs to also actually HIT moving targets and LIVE through AOE’s before we will become a viable WvW/dungeon class.

In lieu of AOE dmg reduction for pets (which they refuse to implement) I wish they would just give us a ranged pet that has the same range as a traited LB ranger and fires spike projectiles which move as fast as a rifle bullet. They could hit targets on walls in WvW and wouldn’t explode in AOE.

I would rather see a boost to our range with the longbow (beyond traiting, a base 1300 yards would be great) than an increase to damage. I think that’s a more versatile avenue of “unparalleled archery” than just damage can do, as it increases control as well as damage (indirectly via reduction of incoming damage by kiting and consequently less time/slots blown healing/popping protective skills).

Asthalon.6875:

I would rather see a boost to our range with the longbow (beyond traiting, a base 1300 yards would be great) than an increase to damage. I think that’s a more versatile avenue of “unparalleled archery” than just damage can do, as it increases control as well as damage (indirectly via reduction of incoming damage by kiting and consequently less time/slots blown healing/popping protective skills).

Range bonus would be decent, but the biggest problem with Longbows is the slowness of Long Range Shot’s refire. Warriors have the same problem, which is why Rifles are better than Longbows for them. It’s an animation issue that needs to be addressed for several autoattack skills.

@people bashing pets:

I couldn’t disagree more. My pet is invaluable to me in WvW and he does more damage than I do, I need to use it in order to down people. It hits whoever I target and obeys my command fine. For some reason you can’t control your pet and blame it on bad AI lol. And about siege, its a completely different style of combat. I run a full melee build so I have an 100% decrease in damage against walls. So does any melee build, so your pet not being able to attack is not unfair because they are melee and it makes sense. I instead focus on other things like building/manning/supporting siege weapons, or preventing people from entering or leaving. When there is no wall, my pet goes to work. Lol maybe I’m better at ranger than I thought, I think I’m pretty average. My experience with pets fills the expectation that A-net put out. I treat it as a partner in combat and my strategy is based around that. I find success and fun with it. I haven’t seen many rangers running around raging on how the pet makes them suck(outside of these forums of course). They do the same as me.

@neverbourne I’m gonna have to disagree with you on all parts that the class is broken, but I will say that the class may be meant to be a jack of all trades, meaning he isn’t best in one thing, but can potentially do anything. Saying thieves are better at burst and evasion is unnecessary as that has already been established. What they lack is defense and sustained damage. Nowhere does it say that we are their counterpart or that we should have more damage than them. Re-read the class philosophies on the link.

Jazenn.7526:

@people bashing pets:

I couldn’t disagree more. My pet is invaluable to me in WvW and he does more damage than I do, I need to use it in order to down people. It hits whoever I target and obeys my command fine. For some reason you can’t control your pet and blame it on bad AI lol.

Actually for your situation, being melee, your pet is with you right next to you fighting. Makes sense it doesn’t seem broken. However to anyone who plays a ranger at range, the mechanic is broken, the pet mechanic is an issue, for instance my pet can be chasing my target to my max range, then if someone I re target is behind me, it has to run across two full ranges to re engage a target (potentially) which equals zero damage. You in melee range just need to turn around and the pet too. This equates zero pet damage and useless in my ranged Ranger book.

Personally, If I wanted melee when I made my toon, I would have picked Warrior or Guardian or Thief. So I’m glad you made the class “work” for you. To me it isn’t. Pet mechanics are poorly developed for the ranged Ranger because pets do so much of our damage, pet issues such as , Pet Pathing, Pet ignoring your re choice of targets (lagging), Pets dying easily, all these things aren’t at the optimal performance level for all the ranged Ranger skills.

My tired mind would like to give it’s two cents based upon my experiences as a longbow/sword+horn ranger that tries to use whatever pets fits it’s liking rather than class demands.

Ranger melee- Weak, needs improvement. I feel like more streamlining could be done with sword, but besides that it’s just a cowbell thing for me.

Ranger axe- Underachieving warrior. Needs improvement.

Ranger longbow- Too slow, too inefficient, still seeing ‘OBSTRUCTED’ every few shots, needs the stupid range mechanic for ‘1’ removed entirely.

Ranger shortbow- The best thing about ranger, doing an acceptable amount of damage when you want it to.

Ranger pets- Stupid, clunky, slow, weak and fragile. They aren’t even strong enough to cope with their stupidity most of the time if not all of the time. I’ve used every member of the porcine family, pigs, bears, dogs, wolves, cats, birds… It’s all the same. I’ve yet to see a single issue on pets adequately addressed and fixed since day one. Since there is no way to get rid of them and apply their half of the damage to the ranger they are trying(and failing miserably) to support, we’re stuck doing half of the damage with no alternative.

In short…

Anything we can do, someone else can and will do better. We were promised a profession that could take care of itself and compete with other professions in every field, trying to call Ranger a jack of all trades is just excusing the butchery of Ranger’s potential(imho). We were deceived.

NargofWoV.4267:

Jazenn.7526:

@people bashing pets:

I couldn’t disagree more. My pet is invaluable to me in WvW and he does more damage than I do, I need to use it in order to down people. It hits whoever I target and obeys my command fine. For some reason you can’t control your pet and blame it on bad AI lol.

Actually for your situation, being melee, your pet is with you right next to you fighting. Makes sense it doesn’t seem broken. However to anyone who plays a ranger at range, the mechanic is broken, mainly due to the fact the pet is chasing my target to my max range, then if someone is behind me, it has to run accross two full ranges to re ingage a target (potentially). That is a problem. You in melee range just need to turn around and the pet too.

This spells zero pet damage and pretty useless in my book. Personally, If I wanted melee when I made my toon, I would have picked Warrior or Guardian or Theif. So I’m glad you made the class “work” for you. To me it isn’t. Pet mechanics are poorly developed for the ranged Ranger because pets do so much of our damage, pet AI issues, Pet Pathing, Pet ignoring your re choice of targets (lagging), all these things aren’t at the optimal performance level for all the ranged Ranger skills.

Well first, melee and range is an option for any class. Ranger has the ability to do both well. If you came in thinking ranger shouldn’t be melee, then you came in with a misconception of the class.

Now, if you are suggesting a ranged ranger has a bigger problem with pets than a melee ranger, I can try to answer that.

The ranged ranger finds and reaches a target easily. We have the best range distance in the game, and many utilize this. Targeting and combat begins quickly, and the ranger immediately starts putting out damage and maintains that damage only as long as they are facing the direction of the target, which is very easy. A melee ranger is different in that they have to first catch the target, and then output damage while the target is moving, maintaining hits when in some cases the enemy attempts to distance itself. This creates a challenge in chasing, whereas for ranged attack it is much easier. I think the same applies to pets. The ranged pets will attack as soon as they reach the max distance from the enemy. With melee pets, they have to chase, similarly to the melee ranger. When you have a ranged ranger and a melee pet, as a result the pet will be have a longer distance to cover when the ranger finds a new target. All this seems to be what you are suggesting. The question is, is this the fault of the pet or the ranger? If you are playing monkey with your targets, the melee pet will hit less because it spends more time running. Possible solution? If you are ranged, using a ranged pet or changing your playstyle in a way that allows your pet to catch up and do damage. Just as a warrior will try to stun you to pull off 100b, you have to give your pet an opportunity to reach the new target and hit it. Does this make any sense?

On another note, I have never experience my pet lagging or ignoring my commands. I wouldn’t know what you are experiencing because of that because my pet doesn’t fail to respond.

Jazenn.7526:

@people bashing pets:

I couldn’t disagree more. My pet is invaluable to me in WvW and he does more damage than I do, I need to use it in order to down people. It hits whoever I target and obeys my command fine. For some reason you can’t control your pet and blame it on bad AI lol. And about siege, its a completely different style of combat. I run a full melee build so I have an 100% decrease in damage against walls. So does any melee build, so your pet not being able to attack is not unfair because they are melee and it makes sense. I instead focus on other things like building/manning/supporting siege weapons, or preventing people from entering or leaving. When there is no wall, my pet goes to work. Lol maybe I’m better at ranger than I thought, I think I’m pretty average. My experience with pets fills the expectation that A-net put out. I treat it as a partner in combat and my strategy is based around that. I find success and fun with it. I haven’t seen many rangers running around raging on how the pet makes them suck(outside of these forums of course). They do the same as me.

@neverbourne I’m gonna have to disagree with you on all parts that the class is broken, but I will say that the class may be meant to be a jack of all trades, meaning he isn’t best in one thing, but can potentially do anything. Saying thieves are better at burst and evasion is unnecessary as that has already been established. What they lack is defense and sustained damage. Nowhere does it say that we are their counterpart or that we should have more damage than them. Re-read the class philosophies on the link.

Just out of curiosity, how many WvW kills do you have? I’m not trying to flame you man, but I really don’t find it likely that you’re truly a dedicated WvW’er with what I hear you saying. I’ve got 13k kills, and my pet rarely contributes to them. Pets are going to die in the first few seconds of any sort of decent wvw fight. They might get a couple hits in if you’re lucky and your target decides to stay fairly still. They are simply not a reliable tool.

When you say “jack of all trades” what trades would those be exactly? We get no useful group utility (i.e. portal, group invis, shadow refuge). We’re not damage sponges like heavy armor classes or necros. Face it, we’re a straight up DPS class with low DPS. Saying we have “sustained DPS” as if it’s a good thing is silly. Thieves have better burst (far superior in wvw which is about downing people) AND better overall “sustained” dps. What defensive abilities do we have? Lightning reflexes and a master-traited signet invulnerability with a ridiculous cool down? AOE. We’ve got one. No blast finishers. No stealth. No reflection. We’re not jack of all trades bro. We’ve got one trade. Single target DPS. And with dead pets, we are fairly bad at it.

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981:

My tired mind would like to give it’s two cents based upon my experiences as a longbow/sword+horn ranger that tries to use whatever pets fits it’s liking rather than class demands.

Ranger melee- Weak, needs improvement. I feel like more streamlining could be done with sword, but besides that it’s just a cowbell thing for me.

Ranger axe- Underachieving warrior. Needs improvement.

Ranger longbow- Too slow, too inefficient, still seeing ‘OBSTRUCTED’ every few shots, needs the stupid range mechanic for ‘1’ removed entirely.

Ranger shortbow- The best thing about ranger, doing an acceptable amount of damage when you want it to.

Ranger pets- Stupid, clunky, slow, weak and fragile. They aren’t even strong enough to cope with their stupidity most of the time if not all of the time. I’ve used every member of the porcine family, pigs, bears, dogs, wolves, cats, birds… It’s all the same. I’ve yet to see a single issue on pets adequately addressed and fixed since day one. Since there is no way to get rid of them and apply their half of the damage to the ranger they are trying(and failing miserably) to support, we’re stuck doing half of the damage with no alternative.

In short…

Anything we can do, someone else can and will do better. We were promised a profession that could take care of itself and compete with other professions in every field, trying to call Ranger a jack of all trades is just excusing the butchery of Ranger’s potential(imho). We were deceived.

The thing is, we weren’t deceived. Read the statement. He never said we were the best at one thing but are able to do many things. This is not deception, he is putting it out there for clarification. To me it just seems like you briefly tried all of those things and you couldn’t seem to win, except for when using shortbow. Each of those weapons are viable, I’ve seen each weapon used and there is no real favorite(besides shortbow being most common).

neverborne.4736:

Jazenn.7526:

@people bashing pets:

I couldn’t disagree more. My pet is invaluable to me in WvW and he does more damage than I do, I need to use it in order to down people. It hits whoever I target and obeys my command fine. For some reason you can’t control your pet and blame it on bad AI lol. And about siege, its a completely different style of combat. I run a full melee build so I have an 100% decrease in damage against walls. So does any melee build, so your pet not being able to attack is not unfair because they are melee and it makes sense. I instead focus on other things like building/manning/supporting siege weapons, or preventing people from entering or leaving. When there is no wall, my pet goes to work. Lol maybe I’m better at ranger than I thought, I think I’m pretty average. My experience with pets fills the expectation that A-net put out. I treat it as a partner in combat and my strategy is based around that. I find success and fun with it. I haven’t seen many rangers running around raging on how the pet makes them suck(outside of these forums of course). They do the same as me.

@neverbourne I’m gonna have to disagree with you on all parts that the class is broken, but I will say that the class may be meant to be a jack of all trades, meaning he isn’t best in one thing, but can potentially do anything. Saying thieves are better at burst and evasion is unnecessary as that has already been established. What they lack is defense and sustained damage. Nowhere does it say that we are their counterpart or that we should have more damage than them. Re-read the class philosophies on the link.

Just out of curiosity, how many WvW kills do you have? I’m not trying to flame you man, but I really don’t find it likely that you’re truly a dedicated WvW’er with what I hear you saying. I’ve got 13k kills, and my pet rarely contributes to them. Pets are going to die in the first few seconds of any sort of decent wvw fight. They might get a couple hits in if you’re lucky and your target decides to stay fairly still. They are simply not a reliable tool.

When you say “jack of all trades” what trades would those be exactly? We get no useful group utility (i.e. portal, group invis, shadow refuge). We’re not damage sponges like heavy armor classes or necros. Face it, we’re a straight up DPS class with low DPS. Saying we have “sustained DPS” as if it’s a good thing is silly. Thieves have better burst (far superior in wvw which is about downing people) AND better overall “sustained” dps. What defensive abilities do we have? Lightning reflexes and a master-traited signet invulnerability with a ridiculous cool down? AOE. We’ve got one. No blast finishers. No reflection. We’re not jack of all trades bro. We’ve got one trade. Single target DPS. And we are fairly bad at it.

I definitely don’t have more than you, I have somewhere between 1000 and 2000, but I don’t WvW primarily, I do about an equal amount of each. My pet contributes to each of the kills I get now, I primarily roam, sometimes with guildies sometimes alone. I don’t like to WvW recently since my server got crowded, but I still do it now and then.

We have excellent group utility in entangle and nature spirit. Utility wise (for group support) there is muddy terrain/spirits/healing spring/pet rez/aoe buffs) etc. There is a popular bunker build that can go toe to toe with Guardian bunker, necro, or d/d ele, and can sponge quite a bit of damage. We have sustained DPS whether you think it is good or bad, I think its good. Thieves have better burst but I don’t think they have better sustained DPS. Defensively, we have a lot of CC from pets, cripple, daze, immobilize from weapons and utilities, the ones you mentioned plus vigor and evasion from from weapons, bark skin, empathic bond, natures protection/regeneration, etc, not to mention intense and at times perma regen. AOE from pets, cleave damage on weapons, traps, barrage, pierce arrows, bouncing on the axe, torch 5, axe 5. Sooo many projectile finishers, leap on each sword, a whirling, and a pet with a blast(which gives aoe benefits). Block on greatsword and reflection on axe 5. We have multiple target DPS as every single one of our weapons can hit multiple targets on autoattack (bows on pierce).

All of that just shows me despite your 13k kills in WvW, you still don’t know the the class that well. We can do a lot. Thus, we are a jack of all trades.

Well Janz, I’m glad you’re so happy with the class the way it is, and thank you for the extensive list of ranger traits and skills. I’m well aware of them all and don’t use most of those because they are terribly bad. Dead pets provide no cc nor dps which is what we were talking about in the first place. The limited WvW experience you have had sounds likes it has been mostly solo roaming, where your pet will obviously have more survivability. But consider the fact that some rangers want to be part of larger and meaningful battles and aren’t bad players (as you suggested) because their pets explode instantly in WvW AOE spam.

neverborne.4736:

Well Janz, I’m glad you’re so happy with the class the way it is, and thank you for the extensive list of ranger traits and skills. I’m well aware of them all and don’t use most of those because they are terribly bad. Dead pets provide no cc nor dps which is what we were talking about in the first place. The limited WvW experience you have had sounds likes it has been mostly solo roaming, where your pet will obviously have more survivability. But consider the fact that some rangers want to be part of larger and meaningful battles and aren’t bad players (as you suggested) because their pets explode instantly in WvW AOE spam.

I participate in large scales battles at times, I just don’t like it as much because of culling. The last big battle I was a part of was a couple days ago in Crystal Desert was a 3-5 hour siege of the garrison there. Me and my guildies regularly lead the charge when flanking a zerg, I often charged in front and popped entangle and grabbed their target. Then me and my pet stomp as many as we can before they figure out what has happened. I avoid/counter AOE and when it kills my pet I switch and try again. My pet stays alive much more than it spends limping around following me. If you don’t like the ranger skills, that is your problem. I use them regardless and think they are great. Spirits are eh in my opinion but I can use them when I want. Shouts are really the only skills I don’t use, and apparently since their buff some people still use them on the skillbar. My experience in WvW, though I don’t get as many kills as you, has taught me just as much, and how to make the skills work for me. One thing a ranger excels at is roaming because then you can avoid AOE spam. If you like zerg combat then your playstyle changes, but my pet manages to stay alive regardless lol. Apparently 13k kills makes you a master expert at the class, but you can’t even find a way to make the class mechanic useful. If I can have success roaming, able to beat any class in solo or party encounters, that teaches me more than spamming AOE on a part of the map where only half the players are loaded, tagging as many kills as possible. I love the big battles too though, they can be epic and fun, but don’t look down on roaming, I have capped/defended keeps with groups less than ten.

When I play ranger in WvW, I feel like the class matches the description. I can spec to do anything I want, and my pet feels like a partner.

Ranger is meant to be jack of all trades, master of none. However, in its current state most skills are just useless so we can’t use our “trades” so Ranger is not fulfilling its role. If we are meant to be jack of all trades we should be able to build more than two viable builds, signets and traps.

Peter.9406:

Ranger is meant to be jack of all trades, master of none. However, in its current state most skills are just useless so we can’t use our “trades” so Ranger is not fulfilling its role. If we are meant to be jack of all trades we should be able to build more than two viable builds, signets and traps.

There are more builds than signets and traps. There are BM, Power/crit GC, axe power, condition damage, stun, spirits, etc. I have seen all used before, they are all viable.

Jazenn.7526:

Peter.9406:

Ranger is meant to be jack of all trades, master of none. However, in its current state most skills are just useless so we can’t use our “trades” so Ranger is not fulfilling its role. If we are meant to be jack of all trades we should be able to build more than two viable builds, signets and traps.

There are more builds than signets and traps. There are BM, Power/crit GC, axe power, condition damage, stun, spirits, etc. I have seen all used before, they are all viable.

If they were viable, I’d run into them more often.

The ones I did run into died all too easily.

Agadar.4931:

Jazenn.7526:

Peter.9406:

Ranger is meant to be jack of all trades, master of none. However, in its current state most skills are just useless so we can’t use our “trades” so Ranger is not fulfilling its role. If we are meant to be jack of all trades we should be able to build more than two viable builds, signets and traps.

There are more builds than signets and traps. There are BM, Power/crit GC, axe power, condition damage, stun, spirits, etc. I have seen all used before, they are all viable.

If they were viable, I’d run into them more often.

The ones I did run into died all too easily.

Mine didn’t(except for GC), and I didn’t even spend a lot of time on them. They were harder because I was not used to them, but I was still able to hold my own. I just prefer my current build that much more.

For all of those saying that a ranger is suppose to be the jack of all trades…I’ll just tell you politely, please clean your mouth…cause your talking kitten! This game was not made to have a tank class, to have a healer class, to have a support class. This game was made with the idea that ANY class can do ANY job the player wants. Which is why you can see a cloth wearing mesmer with a two handed sword. Any class can be a DPS player. Any class can be a ranged player. Any Class can be a healer. The ranger’s are not suppose to be singled out on this philosophy from ANet. I’ve been looking throughout the forum for the post I read from a dev stating this fact. This is the reason why, for instance, close minded jazenn’s tank build works good for him and his pet, because he is close range, holding his enemy at bay to give his pet a chance to attack. Meanwhile, us ranged playing ranger’s have trouble because the pets spend more time running around chasing the player that is chasing us then actually doing any damage because our target won’t stop for one second for the pet to hit…which is why we lose ~40% of our damage.

Although I did not find the post of the dev stating that there is no such thing as the jack of all trades, because everyone can tank, heal, etc. I did find a video that mentions this, you can start the video at the half way mark and listen to it from there.

<iframe width=“560” height=“315” src=“https://www.youtube.com/embed/aDyKPXjA9eU” frameborder=“0” allowfullscreen></iframe>

hmmm, sorry, I guess the code doesn’t work but you can click on the link and see the video there.

I can live with the ranger now as it is, the traits could use some cleaning, the utilities can use a balance pass, and some of the weapons could probably use an update. As they are now though, they can function.

Except the pet. I would be fine with everything as it is now, except the pet. Now that I’m doing higher level Fractals, the pet issue is becoming so sorely obvious that it’s frusterating me into playing alts.

Pet have to have some kind of agony resist. They have to have some type of built in AI that will help them avoid, absorb and mitigate high damage AoE attacks that are unavoidable and they have to recall as soon as I call them.

Even a small AoE damage reduction would go a long way for pets.

A small timed ability that acts like a pet dodge to avoid spike damage

Agony resist at the Ranger’s agony resist

That’s what I would do and I would be fine with the ranger.

Akisame.9508:

For all of those saying that a ranger is suppose to be the jack of all trades…I’ll just tell you politely, please clean your mouth…cause your talking kitten! This game was not made to have a tank class, to have a healer class, to have a support class. This game was made with the idea that ANY class can do ANY job the player wants. Which is why you can see a cloth wearing mesmer with a two handed sword. Any class can be a DPS player. Any class can be a ranged player. Any Class can be a healer. The ranger’s are not suppose to be singled out on this philosophy from ANet. I’ve been looking throughout the forum for the post I read from a dev stating this fact. This is the reason why, for instance, close minded jazenn’s tank build works good for him and his pet, because he is close range, holding his enemy at bay to give his pet a chance to attack. Meanwhile, us ranged playing ranger’s have trouble because the pets spend more time running around chasing the player that is chasing us then actually doing any damage because our target won’t stop for one second for the pet to hit…which is why we lose ~40% of our damage.

Although I did not find the post of the dev stating that there is no such thing as the jack of all trades, because everyone can tank, heal, etc. I did find a video that mentions this, you can start the video at the half way mark and listen to it from there.

<iframe width=“560” height=“315” src=“https://www.youtube.com/embed/aDyKPXjA9eU” frameborder=“0” allowfullscreen></iframe>

hmmm, sorry, I guess the code doesn’t work but you can click on the link and see the video there.

Every class can be dps/tank/balance, but not every class can do everything equally well. For instance, a thief cannot become a bunker in the same way that a guardian can. He can tank, but he has to use evasion and stealth because he still cant take a 100b and survive. A warrior can be dps with power/crit, but he can’t mass distribute bleed, poison, chill, or fear like the necro can. A necro can tank just by having a crapload of health, but they can’t evade the same way a ranger can in order to tank. A ranger however can do all of these things well enough to be effective. You don’t see evasion necro, condition warrior, armor tank thief they way that you see rangers doing all of that, the opposite, and more. In that way I see us as a jack of all trades.

Jazenn.7526:

Every class can be dps/tank/balance, but not every class can do everything equally well. For instance, a thief cannot become a bunker in the same way that a guardian can. He can tank, but he has to use evasion and stealth because he still cant take a 100b and survive. A warrior can be dps with power/crit, but he can’t mass distribute bleed, poison, chill, or fear like the necro can. A necro can tank just by having a crapload of health, but they can’t evade the same way a ranger can in order to tank. A ranger however can do all of these things well enough to be effective. You don’t see evasion necro, condition warrior, armor tank thief they way that you see rangers doing all of that, the opposite, and more. In that way I see us as a jack of all trades.

Ok, then YOU see it as a jack of all trades. And I can understand your point of view in that perspective, but saying that the ranger class is “SUPPOSE to be a jack of all trades and a master of none” is incorrect! That was NOT the intended purpose of the class according to ANet. So those people spouting that crap should stop.

Akisame.9508:

Jazenn.7526:

Every class can be dps/tank/balance, but not every class can do everything equally well. For instance, a thief cannot become a bunker in the same way that a guardian can. He can tank, but he has to use evasion and stealth because he still cant take a 100b and survive. A warrior can be dps with power/crit, but he can’t mass distribute bleed, poison, chill, or fear like the necro can. A necro can tank just by having a crapload of health, but they can’t evade the same way a ranger can in order to tank. A ranger however can do all of these things well enough to be effective. You don’t see evasion necro, condition warrior, armor tank thief they way that you see rangers doing all of that, the opposite, and more. In that way I see us as a jack of all trades.

Ok, then YOU see it as a jack of all trades. And I can understand your point of view in that perspective, but saying that the ranger class is “SUPPOSE to be a jack of all trades and a master of none” is incorrect! That was NOT the intended purpose of the class according to ANet. So those people spouting that crap should stop.

Well it very well may be the intended purpose, that’s what I interpreted from the statement on Dec. 14th. What did you get out of the statement? The only thing I would say that A-net says that goes against this is when they said warrior can’t do more ranged damage than the ranger, but then again I haven’t tested that myself.

I read that the same way you do. Rangers can evade, but not as good as a thief. Ranger’s can face tank, but not as good as a guardian or warrior. We can do poison, not as good as a thief though. But in the bottom line, none of that is suppose to cut into the balance where right now ranger’s damage is subpar because ~40% of the damage is lost through a faulty AI. So instead of all classes being at about a 5% difference in DPS from each other, the ranger’s are at about a 45% off from the others, or at least, a ranged ranger is. A melee type ranger maybe not as much unless they are giving chase, then they lose damage.

I have not reached max level on my ranger or any other character. I do not presume to understand all of the mechanics of our class or any other. I acknowledge that the long bow’s 1 is a very slow fire rate; however, I cannot in good conscience agree with the complaints specific to its usage. I play spvp and pve on my ranger, and when possible (it almost always is) I find a vantage point with a nice field of view overlooking one of the points. Then I wait. When someone comes along to try and cap it, I simply move out of the shadows hit them with Longbow 3, pop quickening zephyr and my red moa’s Furious Screech and use Longbow 2. If they’re not dead by the end of it, its almost always because they started running before I could finish them off. When they’re gone, I simply back up and continue waiting.

Is it the perfect strategy? No, not by any means. But I think it helps encompass one of the best features of our class, especially for Longbow ranger: wherever you are, whatever point you are trying to cap, or ally you’re trying to save, know that should you enter my domain, you will die before you ever find me.

For WvW, I simply wait for a zerg to cap a tower, then sit on the walls and start the waiting game all over. When a group tries to take the tower, I rain feathered death upon them from safety.

As for pets, and their many and myriad failings, I say only this: if you dislike your pet dying consistently, might I suggest one of the support pets? Put them on passive, and simply spam their abilities. Is it the best use of something that should give us a significant dps boost? No, but until the pets are granted some fashion of durability for large aoe in either WvW or dungeons, having a pet around that can give a 15 s fury or might is a great asset to any group.

AiursFallen.6213:

As for pets, and their many and myriad failings, I say only this: if you dislike your pet dying consistently, might I suggest one of the support pets? Put them on passive, and simply spam their abilities. Is it the best use of something that should give us a significant dps boost? No, but until the pets are granted some fashion of durability for large aoe in either WvW or dungeons, having a pet around that can give a 15 s fury or might is a great asset to any group.

The issue is that a support pet on passive gimps your damage by 30-40%. That is no answer. May as well ask a two hand warrior to put down one of his two swords and just play with 1 with nothing in his off hand. You really hit the nail on the head, in large fights… ala WvWvW open field pets are pretty useless for DPS as they die almost instantaniously. Plus, unless you spec in “Guard” they’re pretty useless for DPS in keep work defense, and about totally useless in keep taking, all WvWvW options. Now in Dungeon’s I’ve not had as much of a problem as long as I run ranged pets and keep them swapped, but I haven’t been to all dungeons, so I’m not familiar with all problems.

The only person here that loves the pet and its attributes doesn’t use his Ranger for ranged work, but instead fights right alongside his pet basically nullifying all of the pathing, AI issues that Ranged Rangers have. Plus, chances are, if his PET is AoE’d down, he’s pretty soon to follow. However, I’m glad he found that narrow spot where all things are perfect for him/her in the world of melee rangerdom.

I can agree that the greatsword is a sexy thing to use on a ranger, and I am not opposed to using it, but for pvp in general, I always try to hit an opponent from as far away as rangerly possibly and open up with everything I have so they become convinced that closing the gap is the worse idea a sentient being can have.

As for pets, I agree completely that our dps is nerfed hard if using a support on passive, but I can’t think of a better option. If we can find one for the ranged rangers, I’ll jump on that like a thief on a low health squishy. >.>

Jazenn.7526:

Gradual minimal change is what will happen, as A-net seems very conservative when it comes to class balance.

the ranger is one of those things in this game that doesnt need gradual, minimal changes. it’s so gimped that it requires serious revamps. spirits, trap traits, pets, shouts, ridiculously useless BM traits (most of them), the longbow, the list goes on.

Jazenn.7526:

Peter.9406:

Ranger is meant to be jack of all trades, master of none. However, in its current state most skills are just useless so we can’t use our “trades” so Ranger is not fulfilling its role. If we are meant to be jack of all trades we should be able to build more than two viable builds, signets and traps.

There are more builds than signets and traps. There are BM, Power/crit GC, axe power, condition damage, stun, spirits, etc. I have seen all used before, they are all viable.

Talking from a PvE perspective as I do A LOT of dungeons:
Ok first, I was commenting how many of our skills are not viable enough and you’re mentioning weapons, traits, and stats. Not my argument at all. When deciding what skills to take you’re basically stuck with either traps or signets (if you want to actually do smething in your team). Second, spirits are not a viable build at all. They don’t proc often enough and their survival is awful. You’re really not supporting your team much by taking them when you could bring something else that could contribute more.

To all of you claiming pets or a certain build isn’t viable, speak for yourself. There are people all over this forum that manage to succeed at the things you claim are impossible to do so with. If you can’t do it, doesn’t mean someone else can’t.

I guess the expectation has to do with your experience playing ranger. If you don’t feel satisfied personally, the ranger must be weak and need an overhaul. If you love the class how it is, it seems to live up to expectation. I guess there is no way to agree on a ground where everyone can say whether the ranger class is in the right place or not.

There are also people all over the forum who agree spirits are awful. But I’ll just agree with you to agree that we all disagree.

Jazenn.7526:

To all of you claiming pets or a certain build isn’t viable, speak for yourself. There are people all over this forum that manage to succeed at the things you claim are impossible to do so with. If you can’t do it, doesn’t mean someone else can’t.

I guess the expectation has to do with your experience playing ranger. If you don’t feel satisfied personally, the ranger must be weak and need an overhaul. If you love the class how it is, it seems to live up to expectation. I guess there is no way to agree on a ground where everyone can say whether the ranger class is in the right place or not.

I’m not sure anyone is claiming the class is unplayable. I have certainly given examples of issues I’ve found being a ranged Ranger, with pet pathing, pet dying, pets not hitting moving targets, pets picking their own targets (happened again last night). However, you yourself have stated you had to find your perfect place with the ranger class, and that was in Melee Combat, where your pet works great. Well, Melee is only 1/2 the class in a game where each class is suppose to be viable in all aspects. Now if you define viable as ok. Then fine. However, if the definition of Viable is having the same ability as say a Warrior at range, at all times, then our class isn’t viable in comparison due to the issue many have stated above.

I still play my ranged ranger. I will still wish it to be as viable in damage as say an Elementalist or a Warrior, but I also understand I’m not balancing the game or seeing the behind the scene results (funny how they’ve changed Honor Medals, I wonder if that has something to do with certain (ranger) classes not getting them as well as other classes?

I love the description of Ranger Anet gives us. And the Ranger concept is solid, it’s just the execution that needs work.

I’m fine with our pets dealing a sizeable portion of our damage, and I like their variety. But they die too easily for them to be such an important aspect of our gameplay.

LB needs to fire just a bit faster, pets need damage mitigation, spirits need damage mitigation, signets need slight boosts, pets need to stop running sooner. None of our issues require a class overhaul. I love Ranger and the gameplay. But a few tweaks here & there and we’re spot on perfect.

NargofWoV.4267:

Jazenn.7526:

To all of you claiming pets or a certain build isn’t viable, speak for yourself. There are people all over this forum that manage to succeed at the things you claim are impossible to do so with. If you can’t do it, doesn’t mean someone else can’t.

I guess the expectation has to do with your experience playing ranger. If you don’t feel satisfied personally, the ranger must be weak and need an overhaul. If you love the class how it is, it seems to live up to expectation. I guess there is no way to agree on a ground where everyone can say whether the ranger class is in the right place or not.

I’m not sure anyone is claiming the class is unplayable. I have certainly given examples of issues I’ve found being a ranged Ranger, with pet pathing, pet dying, pets not hitting moving targets, pets picking their own targets (happened again last night). However, you yourself have stated you had to find your perfect place with the ranger class, and that was in Melee Combat, where your pet works great. Well, Melee is only 1/2 the class in a game where each class is suppose to be viable in all aspects. Now if you define viable as ok. Then fine. However, if the definition of Viable is having the same ability as say a Warrior at range, at all times, then our class isn’t viable in comparison due to the issue many have stated above.

I still play my ranged ranger. I will still wish it to be as viable in damage as say an Elementalist or a Warrior, but I also understand I’m not balancing the game or seeing the behind the scene results (funny how they’ve changed Honor Medals, I wonder if that has something to do with certain (ranger) classes not getting them as well as other classes?

Melee is only my current build. I have run shorbow/axe ranger for much longer than my current build, and I still had fun and won with that. Ranged is also viable, or at least it was for me. While I did find something that caught my attention and I currently enjoy, it’s not like I can’t do anything else. I agree that A-net had a problem when they say warrior’s can’t do more ranged damage than a ranger. But that’s honestly the only issue I find, and I really could care less, as I still love the shortbow, axe, longbow, whatever and will use it regardless without complaint. It is still an issue though because we don’t have a clear picture of the ranger because of that. Everything else meets my expectation, I love the class.