Guild Wars 2

Hey guys ,
i have to get this off my chest . For the Nth time in the last couple of months i have run into this … An apparent capable ranger in berserker gear in a dungeon , no bear pets , and saying i will place spirits and bla bla bla . OK , all seems great and honestly , as a ranger main , i have a massive degree of tolerance for other rangers incompetence…

But this is where the trolling starts . The apparent “i know what im doing ranger” turns into a static useless guy shooting at 1500 range , placing spirits out of range and not putting the healing spring on top of the party that is in melee range with a boss . Even if you tell them to go into melee to keep the boss pinned , you are just met with silence .

So after the last painfully dull and long CoF 1 run… 15mins or so .. In private , i explain to him that there is no need for 1500 range in dungeons and that he should put spotter instead , come a little closer to better support the party with spirits and HS and such …

I PLAY HOW I WANT!!! I PLAY AS I WANT !!! F… YOU !!!!

No wonder we are loathed and frawned upon… jesus

As if the Ranger is the only one who does this. You have Necromancers using conditions in dungeons, Warriors using GS exclusively instead of Axe and swapping only for 100b, etc etc. There’s nothing wrong with playing how you want to play so long as you aren’t a detriment to the group. The difference in DPS may be noticeable, but in the grand scheme of things we’re talking about a difference of only minutes being added on to your clear time.

This is GW2, the most casual of MMO’s. This isn’t WoW where every single last spec of DPS must be maximized or you’re not going to clear new content.

I understand your complaint. I’m a very strict min/maxer myself. But there’s nothing wrong with the above scenario and you have no one to blame but yourself for PUGing to begin with.

If you are in a pug, why in the hell would you expect people to play the way you want?

You seem to be a speedrun ftw~ type….am I right? The type that likes to skip every mob and stack in a corner to do the dungeon faster, to get more loot, in order to do it again? Yeah.

Here is the deal. People can play how they want. Period. They paid for the game as well. They want to do nothing but use a LB? Who are you to complain? Obviously you didn’t know this Ranger, and his words to you were spot on.

While every single “Ranger/Hunter/Scout” type classes in every MMO seem to attract the dolts, it does not change the fact they can still play how they want.

Want a grindy, speedrun, min/max, work instead of play, type people to run with? There are plenty out there. Find them, and be uber leet together.

Plenty of classes play the way they want. It’s just more obvious on the ranger when it is wrong. There’s no point telling some guys that you’re an expert because you’ve seen a video where an elite ranger does this, that and the other. If you’ve actually worked out the best builds by playing bad ones yourself and testing things out, then let other people go through the same process too.

Agreed. They can play with any weapon they want, build, style. However, the ranger DID join a team, so there is some balance. If the team asks you to drop a healing spring on melee, you should. If the team asks you to get spirits in range, send your pet in etc., be a team player.

If the team kittenes and moans that you have the wrong gear, play style, pets, or color scheme, what the heck are they doing pugging?

That is the point i am trying to make . I do not care if someone brings conditions or raw dps or a hybrid build . I care about doing stuff for your team if your team asks you to do it . Fast clearing content like CoF has no point anymore because you would do it once a day now . However , staying at 1500 range , dropping HS and spirits so far away from the rest of the group and messing with the boss positioning because you refuse to do any sort of team play is something that i consider trolling .

And the attitude where any tip , suggestion or plea is met with a “f… you, I play as I want” is not ok with me .

PS. I main a ranger . I have brought dps , hybrid or beastmaster builds into dungeons so I am not into min-maxing all the time . However , TEAMPLAY TEAMPLAY TEAMPLAY .

If he stood at 1500, he failed not because he wasn’t in melee, but because he needs only 1000, which still gives max dps and also better options to support group.

After few years of hardcore WoW raiding, I’m fully casual here (yes, I do dungs with LB! lol), but ignoring it when your team clearly asks you to do/don’t do sth, is far beyond “playing as I want” imho.

And, as others said, it’s not only ranger issue.

Terkov.4138:

If he stood at 1500, he failed not because he wasn’t in melee, but because he needs only 1000, which still gives max dps and also better options to support group.

After few years of hardcore WoW raiding, I’m fully casual here (yes, I do dungs with LB! lol), but ignoring it when your team clearly asks you to do/don’t do sth, is far beyond “playing as I want” imho.

And, as others said, it’s not only ranger issue.

It just seems like a ranger issue because we are the 2nd most played class. When it comes to dungeons, its all about teamplay, and this type of selfish attitude would get him kicked from my group. He could have been the worse player, dies alot and still wont get kicked, we’ll just carry him (i wasnt my best in CoE runs yesterday, good for my guild to carry me, haha).

Just like Terkov said, being at 1500 range is dumb. With the attack speed of lb, it’ll take the arrows even longer to hit the enemy, thus reducing your overall dps. Also being at 1500 range makes it harder to go res a party member if they are downed since you have to run all the way to them.

So I was going to be smarmy because it sounded like the old elitist shtick of you’re not perfect so GTFO. But ultimately it’s a guy who is a kitten. It isn’t indicative of being a Ranger it’s indicative of not being able to play well with others.

I have a nonconventional spec. I don’t zerk, I don’t spirit, I don’t spring and I do bear when my bird isn’t cutting it. My build is about survival, not damage, and that’s what I do. But I run the encounter for how it needs to be run and I follow my teams lead. I’m not changing up my spec, though. I play the way I want and unless I am specifically causing us to fail, which hasn’t happened in my experience, I don’t need someone telling me to play differently.

Fix the Longbow #1 to not reduce damage wile under certain range. Fixed!

Rym.1469:

Fix the Longbow #1 to not reduce damage wile under certain range. Fixed!

I don’t think that would fix this particular instance. I suspect the problem here is that the guy decided, “If I can fight from this far away, then I will fight from this far away.” Not that he needed to be that far away to do damage.

There are rangers with varying degrees of skills, builds and play style. Everyone one has a idea of what they should be doing as well as what others should be doing. A request is just that. Will it maybe be your belief that x action is better someone else may not believe so. So who will should you follow.

While I can see both views there are to many varieable that are not mention to determine what the correct action should have been. Who has agro, does the boss have certain counters to melee or range targets. Does this boss have a one or two shot attack that will down the group. Will his healing spring actually prevent plays from going down or is it just academic. Were you in need of more dps or support. The pet he was using was it providing any type of boon or support for the group.

There is also the skill and build of the player. Is he one of those GC ranger that die when the wind blows. IF so it’s best he stay at range ( doing max damage) than being dead for the entire encounter or pulling party members from their roles to res or rally him every 20 seconds.

He might of said “I play as I want”, but want he may have meant is he plays as he can.
The Group isn’t always right and you know your abilities better than anyone. With that said One should listen when someone suggests a weapon or a tactic. Evaluate it don’t just disregard it because you think you know everything.

On a side note I personally Like black bears. I mainly use them vs boss that one shot often like some of them in Cm. Weakness is an under used asset. Its not always about dps.

This is why in guild wars 1, build templates were lifesavers. Make a group, tell joiners we “need this from you”, ask them to ping their build, and if they didn’t cooperate or weren’t running the requested build/utilities, kick them and find somebody else.

ESPECIALLY for instanced content.

Terkov.4138:

If he stood at 1500, he failed not because he wasn’t in melee, but because he needs only 1000, which still gives max dps and also better options to support group.

Part of the attraction of attacking from 1500 range is that a lot of mob attacks only have 1200 range.

jcbroe.4329:

This is why in guild wars 1, build templates were lifesavers. Make a group, tell joiners we “need this from you”, ask them to ping their build, and if they didn’t cooperate or weren’t running the requested build/utilities, kick them and find somebody else.

ESPECIALLY for instanced content.

Tbh I hated this part :p I had my build(s) which I knew and mastered, and it was simply breaking fun for me to change build totally for single instance. One of the reasons I ran only with friends, where I always knew what build I’ll have to use.

jcbroe.4329:

This is why in guild wars 1, build templates were lifesavers. Make a group, tell joiners we “need this from you”, ask them to ping their build, and if they didn’t cooperate or weren’t running the requested build/utilities, kick them and find somebody else.

ESPECIALLY for instanced content.

Often the meta builds were less effective than other builds, which really got on my nerves to the point where I just ran 7 heroes with 40/40s and full rune sets to complete everything because they were less painful than pug groups.

Ryan.9387:

jcbroe.4329:

This is why in guild wars 1, build templates were lifesavers. Make a group, tell joiners we “need this from you”, ask them to ping their build, and if they didn’t cooperate or weren’t running the requested build/utilities, kick them and find somebody else.

ESPECIALLY for instanced content.

Often the meta builds were less effective than other builds, which really got on my nerves to the point where I just ran 7 heroes with 40/40s and full rune sets to complete everything because they were less painful than pug groups.

It depended on the meta build. As a long time GW1 ranger player, the ranger builds used in the meta were the builds to use in most all cases. And most other players didn’t mind if you deviated a bit from the main meta to add your own preferences so long as you still fulfilled your ‘role’ in the group.

I can’t count how many times I was there just for Frozen Soil. And how badly most other players used that skill … *shudders*

Dungeons are so easy in this game, it doesn’t matter what you run honestly

I ran dungeons successfully as a LB ranger, BUT, I would run into melee range to set water fields, swap up and do some melee damage when necessary. But honestly, dungeon’s are more about the strategy then how quickly you put the boss down.

As much as I complain about the current state of the Ranger Class, Dungeon effectiveness isn’t one of my complaints. Poor play being the exception.

People who play this game like a job (faster and most efficient way to complete something, fun or not) are the ones that do the most complaining.

People who cant seem to understand that your status in a video game means squat in the big picture are the ones that have issues with how others play the game.

People who play this game as a game, just kick an idiot member, and move on. Which one are you?

And other classes wonder why this class is so bad….

One look at where the upvotes are in this thread makes it pretty clear.
/losing all hope of it ever getting better.

@ Chokolata.1870
Teamplay is the most important thing in dungeons, I spec melee and high regen for team heals in dungeons and boy it has come in handy a lot of times. Sure my hits are nowhere near ( traited or not) as a guardian/ warrior, but normally I go the extra mile to have my appropriate potions and a sigil on each weapon to melee to make up for the group regen.
The issue here is two sided, where one you had it in your head to critique another player which in all cases is the worst thing to do. That sort of thing will start up all sorts of issues and especially when the guy stated “I PLAY HOW I WANT!!! I PLAY AS I WANT !!! F… YOU !!!!”, then it shows the poor social manners and buttwipe attitude that really infects this game quite badly and sadly all too common.

I mean I do Frostgorge champion trains occasionally, or I did until it was infested by the “Bro and Yo Brigade”, the ones who are very elitist, (all run Guardians), are crude in language, can be very quick to be hostile, spout off a lot of macho rubbish and often very homophobic. I could quite happily say something in how they ruin my game with their trash, but it only causes drama so I don’t. And if I can put my own life morals on hold for a game, I am sure that dungeon play is not at all important or an issue in the grand scheme of life. There are much bigger and more worrying matters regarding people in this game, which you have already witnessed in his rebuke to you.

Now what I have to say is this…
Guild wars has no idiot filter and you will often get a player/ players in a pug who are " socially backward" both in manners and general public demeanour. Its quite often a reflection to their real life, which after seeing how some people manifest themselves can be very disturbing and mind-boggling. I am not shouting stereotype but often those people shouting the odds about other people’s mode of play often also do the following…
1 -Will brandish quite aggressively in LFG " No Noobs or kicked".
2- Are of the speed-run type ( which I hate personally, dungeons were not designed for skipping so why do it?" You are there to farm so farm.
3- Are often quite selfish themselves
4- Are quick to say people are useless because they are not geared nor informed that certain members of a pug want to skip ( which they often want to do).

I mean today we had one such impatient little toerag that quite openly vented in open chat during the Grenth Cursed Shore event to " Stop F…ing DPS and just wipe" when he could have said " heal Jones please". Now from that you could tell a lot about a person that they are impatient, insensitive, selfish, rude and basically a moron. The game does not need more people like that, what we do need are more people to lead by an example. So rather than critique – just lead a good dungeon party and spell out your intentions early so the group can decide.

As a suggestion if the actions of the ranger bothered you, then by all means talk about it , but you cannot put your opinions or playstyle to others. This is the risk you take entering a PUG team, you will have all walks of life. More importantly treat others as they wish to be treated, there are ways to communicating.

I have to say that if all the aforementioned are the mind-set, then its better not to pug and get yourself a group of other Guardians… I mean players to farm with XD (+ 1 for additional Stereotype)

Ryan.9387:

jcbroe.4329:

This is why in guild wars 1, build templates were lifesavers. Make a group, tell joiners we “need this from you”, ask them to ping their build, and if they didn’t cooperate or weren’t running the requested build/utilities, kick them and find somebody else.

ESPECIALLY for instanced content.

Often the meta builds were less effective than other builds, which really got on my nerves to the point where I just ran 7 heroes with 40/40s and full rune sets to complete everything because they were less painful than pug groups.

I’m not talking about meta builds though lol. I’m talking about how useful a tool was in order to be able to “preview” your group composition before entering content. It sure would save time, instead of finding out the ranger is going to “bearbow” with the wrong traits, poor equipment, and no helpful group utilities after you get into the dungeon, for instance.

jcbroe.4329:

I’m not talking about meta builds though lol. I’m talking about how useful a tool was in order to be able to “preview” your group composition before entering content. It sure would save time, instead of finding out the ranger is going to “bearbow” with the wrong traits, poor equipment, and no helpful group utilities after you get into the dungeon, for instance.

As much as I enjoy templates, I am afraid that it has the potential for bad things. The potential for a ‘gear-check’ like mechanic being forced in the meta. And that is something that we should strive to avoid.

SynfulChaot.3169:

jcbroe.4329:

I’m not talking about meta builds though lol. I’m talking about how useful a tool was in order to be able to “preview” your group composition before entering content. It sure would save time, instead of finding out the ranger is going to “bearbow” with the wrong traits, poor equipment, and no helpful group utilities after you get into the dungeon, for instance.

As much as I enjoy templates, I am afraid that it has the potential for bad things. The potential for a ‘gear-check’ like mechanic being forced in the meta. And that is something that we should strive to avoid.

I disagree on this one. Right now, without the feature, the game causes many more clashes between “casuals” versus “hardcore” players that wouldn’t exist otherwise.

People would be able to “okay, you’re build sucks for what I want to accomplish” and kick them, versus casual players, or players looking for fun, who aren’t even going to ask each other to ping because they are just looking for a group to enter to go have fun.

I’m all for gear-based and skill-based discrimination/exclusion. That’s what separates the different types of players into different communities, and ultimately, I’m only asking for a tool that would allow a party leader to filter who they want in their group better than they already do.

The one problem is that it requires a large enough population of players actively playing the content that if something like this is implemented, it won’t split the playerbase so much that groups aren’t able to be made.

Ultimately though, people already screen and filter their groups based on gear and skill. It’s just done more on an honor system now, which ends up infuriating people that get lied to by players looking just to rush into a group, or troll, or etc.

At least with a build ping system, players would be able to make a group with whatever intent they have, and hardcore players would have the option of picking and choosing party members in a simpler and more friendly way than having to tell players how bad they and their builds are in the nicest way possible before asking them to change it and/or kicking them altogether.

At least with a build ping system, players would be able to make a group with whatever intent they have, and hardcore players would have the option of picking and choosing party members in a simpler and more friendly way than having to tell players how bad they and their builds are in the nicest way possible before asking them to change it and/or kicking them altogether.

How is “I need to check to see if your build is good, and I think you won’t honestly tell me the answer” ‘nicer’ or ‘more friendly’ than “I need to check to see if your build is good”? Not having played GW1, I imagine it might be faster to ask for a ping, but nicer?

Regarding the OP, I will eat my hat if it’s just rangers. I guess it’s not impossible, but IME, the real Divas are healers… which don’t exist all that much here.

Rutee.1058:

At least with a build ping system, players would be able to make a group with whatever intent they have, and hardcore players would have the option of picking and choosing party members in a simpler and more friendly way than having to tell players how bad they and their builds are in the nicest way possible before asking them to change it and/or kicking them altogether.

How is “I need to check to see if your build is good, and I think you won’t honestly tell me the answer” ‘nicer’ or ‘more friendly’ than “I need to check to see if your build is good”? Not having played GW1, I imagine it might be faster to ask for a ping, but nicer?

Maybe I worded it confusingly lol.

I’m saying, a situation where a party leader invites a person to a group, asks for a build ping, then either kindly asks them to move some things around or kicks them with no verbal exchange, is much nicer than what can happen without build pings.

Without build pings, a party leader can invite a person, ask them what they are running while telling them a preferred setup. That invited player can choose to lie and say that they are running that. Then, during the dungeon run, the party finds out about this player the hard way which results most likely in verbal abuse, failure to complete the dungeon as intended, and a bad experience for everybody involved.

And I’m saying that I’m in favor of a build template and build ping system, because it not only helps parties prepare to enter dungeons on a better level, but it allows party leaders to create the exact type of party they are looking for without forcing other people to change their playstyles.

Atherakhia.4086:

As if the Ranger is the only one who does this. You have Necromancers using conditions in dungeons.

could be worse… could be a condi ranger… or shudder condi guard… whilst i dont like condi necros in a party; they atleast do condis better than other classes in pve (except maybe enginader)

Atherakhia.4086:

Warriors using GS exclusively instead of Axe and swapping only for 100b

i… got confused… using only GS… but swapping only for hundred blades… a GS skill?

Linguistically Inept.6583:

Atherakhia.4086:

As if the Ranger is the only one who does this. You have Necromancers using conditions in dungeons.

could be worse… could be a condi ranger… or shudder condi guard… whilst i dont like condi necros in a party; they atleast do condis better than other classes in pve (except maybe enginader)

Atherakhia.4086:

Warriors using GS exclusively instead of Axe and swapping only for 100b

i… got confused… using only GS… but swapping only for hundred blades… a GS skill?

Using GS exclusively

INSTEAD OF

Using Axe (exclusively) and swapping (to GS) only for 100B

jcbroe.4329:

— snip —

I don’t know. Like ‘gearscore’ systems, this has the potential to be very harmful to the community. You can say how said things don’t make the game worse until you’re blue in the face, but the hard fact is that once said systems are in the game that the ‘elitists’ in the community would co-opt it and use it to try to force others to run what they want them to. If you try to tell me that it wouldn’t necessarily happen then you might want to look at every other MMO that has such a system.

Now if it wasn’t viewable directly by others and you need to ping it then it isn’t as bad as people would be able to find the chat codes for it and then they could ping whatever the ‘elitists’ want them to while not sacrificing their own build on the whims of another.

SynfulChaot.3169:

jcbroe.4329:

— snip —

I don’t know. Like ‘gearscore’ systems, this has the potential to be very harmful to the community. You can say how said things don’t make the game worse until you’re blue in the face, but the hard fact is that once said systems are in the game that the ‘elitists’ in the community would co-opt it and use it to try to force others to run what they want them to. If you try to tell me that it wouldn’t necessarily happen then you might want to look at every other MMO that has such a system.

Now if it wasn’t viewable directly by others and you need to ping it then it isn’t as bad as people would be able to find the chat codes for it and then they could ping whatever the ‘elitists’ want them to while not sacrificing their own build on the whims of another.

That’s how it was in guild wars 1 and that’s all I’m asking for. Party members shouldn’t be under involuntary scrutiny of their party leaders, but party leaders shouldn’t be forced to go in blind with party members that can potentially ruin the experience for them.

I think that’s the point of the thread though, that an “I play how I want” mindset is a terrible mentally for group play, and that when being a part of a team, concessions are made by everybody to some degree in order to be successful. You’re in instanced content, built for teams of 5, and meant to be some of the more challenging content in the game. An “I play how I want” mentally can be the bane of success in that atmosphere.

If people don’t want to make the concessions that their team is asking for, they always have the ability to make their own party and play it how they want with other like-minded individuals.

All I’m saying is that there are just as many players that want to take the most efficient route to success as there are players that want to “bearbow” it up, and that for instanced content, there is no reason why either type of player should have to unintentionally clash with each other and result in a bad experience, when there could be a system put in place that allows a party to make final preparations before ever entering the content.

jcbroe.4329:

That’s how it was in guild wars 1 and that’s all I’m asking for. Party members shouldn’t be under involuntary scrutiny of their party leaders, but party leaders shouldn’t be forced to go in blind with party members that can potentially ruin the experience for them.

I think that’s the point of the thread though, that an “I play how I want” mindset is a terrible mentally for group play, and that when being a part of a team, concessions are made by everybody to some degree in order to be successful. You’re in instanced content, built for teams of 5, and meant to be some of the more challenging content in the game. An “I play how I want” mentally can be the bane of success in that atmosphere.

If people don’t want to make the concessions that their team is asking for, they always have the ability to make their own party and play it how they want with other like-minded individuals.

All I’m saying is that there are just as many players that want to take the most efficient route to success as there are players that want to “bearbow” it up, and that for instanced content, there is no reason why either type of player should have to unintentionally clash with each other and result in a bad experience, when there could be a system put in place that allows a party to make final preparations before ever entering the content.

I’m far more interested in the potential there for saving builds and for sharing builds with friends. Any use outside of that just has too much potential to be harmful. And like I said earlier, people could just subvert those trying to force build choice by pinging the codes for the “good” builds, not changing their own.

Now if people would use such a system to make sure that people weren’t running too useless a build (bearbow) or, say, too many condition builds then it’d not be so bad. But, based on observed behaviour among multiple games, it would quickly change to people forcing others to change their entire builds. Builds that they might not be geared for.

The potential for good is there, but so is the potential for harm.

SynfulChaot.3169:

jcbroe.4329:

That’s how it was in guild wars 1 and that’s all I’m asking for. Party members shouldn’t be under involuntary scrutiny of their party leaders, but party leaders shouldn’t be forced to go in blind with party members that can potentially ruin the experience for them.

I think that’s the point of the thread though, that an “I play how I want” mindset is a terrible mentally for group play, and that when being a part of a team, concessions are made by everybody to some degree in order to be successful. You’re in instanced content, built for teams of 5, and meant to be some of the more challenging content in the game. An “I play how I want” mentally can be the bane of success in that atmosphere.

If people don’t want to make the concessions that their team is asking for, they always have the ability to make their own party and play it how they want with other like-minded individuals.

All I’m saying is that there are just as many players that want to take the most efficient route to success as there are players that want to “bearbow” it up, and that for instanced content, there is no reason why either type of player should have to unintentionally clash with each other and result in a bad experience, when there could be a system put in place that allows a party to make final preparations before ever entering the content.

I’m far more interested in the potential there for saving builds and for sharing builds with friends. Any use outside of that just has too much potential to be harmful. And like I said earlier, people could just subvert those trying to force build choice by pinging the codes for the “good” builds, not changing their own.

Now if people would use such a system to make sure that people weren’t running too useless a build (bearbow) or, say, too many condition builds then it’d not be so bad. But, based on observed behaviour among multiple games, it would quickly change to people forcing others to change their entire builds. Builds that they might not be geared for.

The potential for good is there, but so is the potential for harm.

People would be able to ping whatever they wanted though lol. Unless I’m mistaken, can’t you switch utilities and armor at any given time? You could ping one thing, and run something else. Why doing something as malicious as trolling the group like that would happen, I have no idea.

ANet already said the ultimate goal is to bring back the guild wars 1 template and ping system, in PvP first because it’s easier, but eventually for all game modes if possible.

And I don’t see any harm in picking in choosing who I want in my group. Particularly, I think I’m well within my rights to kick somebody who’s poorly geared, is running a terrible build, or can’t play their class up to the par I want them to. Go find another group to suck in, I have stuff I’m trying to accomplish.

Yes, it does do just as much good as it does harm. But the good it does is more valuable imo than the harm caused, as all it’s going to do is hurt a few peoples egos that aren’t contributing that much to their teams to begin with.

Now if it wasn’t viewable directly by others and you need to ping it then it isn’t as bad as people would be able to find the chat codes for it and then they could ping whatever the ‘elitists’ want them to while not sacrificing their own build on the whims of another.

The amount of effort it would take to look that up would appear to dwarf the effort to research an ‘acceptable’ build, no?

Also, wouldn’t the overall structure of the gear matter just as much as the trait lines, if not more? This isn’t at you, just in general.

jcbroe.4329:

People would be able to ping whatever they wanted though lol. Unless I’m mistaken, can’t you switch utilities and armor at any given time? You could ping one thing, and run something else. Why doing something as malicious as trolling the group like that would happen, I have no idea.

ANet already said the ultimate goal is to bring back the guild wars 1 template and ping system, in PvP first because it’s easier, but eventually for all game modes if possible.

It’s not necessarily being malicious. It could be as simple as someone wishing to run an effective build that may not be ‘meta’ enough. Someone, perhaps, running a build with a few differing choices in their traiting, or perhaps using a different utility or two.

jcbroe.4329:

And I don’t see any harm in picking in choosing who I want in my group. Particularly, I think I’m well within my rights to kick somebody who’s poorly geared, is running a terrible build, or can’t play their class up to the par I want them to. Go find another group to suck in, I have stuff I’m trying to accomplish.

Yes, it does do just as much good as it does harm. But the good it does is more valuable imo than the harm caused, as all it’s going to do is hurt a few peoples egos that aren’t contributing that much to their teams to begin with.

Not necessarily true. It’s not about the ego for those that will be excluded. And it’s all about stroking the ego for those doing the excluding. It will bar many from finding groups for dungeons, especially those with useful and effective builds that may be considered by others to be useless. Builds such as condi builds in dungeons. Or people running, as mentioned before, variants with a few differing traits or utilities.

Rutee.1058:

Now if it wasn’t viewable directly by others and you need to ping it then it isn’t as bad as people would be able to find the chat codes for it and then they could ping whatever the ‘elitists’ want them to while not sacrificing their own build on the whims of another.

The amount of effort it would take to look that up would appear to dwarf the effort to research an ‘acceptable’ build, no?

Also, wouldn’t the overall structure of the gear matter just as much as the trait lines, if not more? This isn’t at you, just in general.

Again, not necessarily true. I’d keep them on hand to sate those that want to force what they want me to play. I know I’m not running what many would consider to be optimal, yet I still find myself one of the last to fall and have very, very rarely had a complaint as to my performance. But based on my build, some would just pass me by.

And yes, gear matters strongly as well. Someone trying to force a condi geared ranger to run a damaging stat will, instead of getting better performance, will get someone far worse than if that player would bring their usual build.

Not necessarily true. It’s not about the ego for those that will be excluded. And it’s all about stroking the ego for those doing the excluding. It will bar many from finding groups for dungeons, especially those with useful and effective builds that may be considered by others to be useless. Builds such as condi builds in dungeons. Or people running, as mentioned before, variants with a few differing traits or utilities.

I played Guild Wars 1 for the entirety of the time the build template system was in progress, and I can honestly say that while the concerns are justified, people are rarely as demanding as this.

Most times, people wouldn’t even ask what my gear was, or what I was spec’d as, they would make sure my weapon set was optimal, and that I had a few key skills needed for completion (guild wars 1 had certain content that literally needed certain skills for success, since it was a more skillbar based game).

In guild wars 2, I can really only see people checking to make sure a ranger would be running a power based build with a sword, or even greatsword (I have A LOT of guildies who seem to think that ranger greatsword is rangers #2 DPS weapon), with Spotter and Frost Spirit. I don’t mean full zerker either, people let me get away with my zerker/knight mixes already.

In fact, I’d go as far as saying guild wars 2 will be even less elitist than guild wars 1, because with no PvX wiki putting up meta builds and vetting builds and etc, there is no quick list for meta builds that the large population is aware of.

Yes, people are going to get asked to change their playstyles. But aren’t we already doing that? I mean, even here on the ranger forums, we take every measure to say things like “don’t run bearbow” without outright just telling people how to play.

The balancing factor is always going to be that people have the ability to create their own parties of people to do content. Especially, with the LFG system now in place, it allows for players to look for players all over their world to do content with in whatever way that party chooses.

Also, people that are looking to optimize and fashion their groups to their liking as just as much elitists as players who refuse to adapt their build and playstyle to the content they’re facing are bad players and idiots. By that, I mean, it isn’t fair to judge one group of players who may happen to be speed runners, or people who get their enjoyment out of efficiency, as elitists.

That’s just how they enjoy the game. On the same spectrum, more casual players might enjoy going in to dungeons, experimenting with suboptimal builds as a learning experience, and having fun in the process. That’s how they enjoy the game.

Neither party is ever going to change how they play the game either. A build template and voluntary ping system just allows players who are more serious to make sure their party is ready for the content.

jcbroe.4329:

In guild wars 2, I can really only see people checking to make sure a ranger would be running a power based build with a sword, or even greatsword (I have A LOT of guildies who seem to think that ranger greatsword is rangers #2 DPS weapon), with Spotter and Frost Spirit. I don’t mean full zerker either, people let me get away with my zerker/knight mixes already.

In fact, I’d go as far as saying guild wars 2 will be even less elitist than guild wars 1, because with no PvX wiki putting up meta builds and vetting builds and etc, there is no quick list for meta builds that the large population is aware of.

Yes, people are going to get asked to change their playstyles. But aren’t we already doing that? I mean, even here on the ranger forums, we take every measure to say things like “don’t run bearbow” without outright just telling people how to play.

I can see it being used a lot more than in GW1. The community here is more akin to the general MMO community. Based on my own observations of GW1 and the MMOs I’ve played, lets just say that GW1 was far more ‘allowing’ than any of the MMOs where you could view another’s gear/build.

And, as I stated before, some playstyles may be quite useful but will still get rejected as it isn’t what others wish of it. Such as running a condi instead of power build, even if the party doesn’t yet have any condi builds.

Now I really wish to be proven wrong. I really want to believe that people wouldn’t abuse the system to try to force specific meta builds on all others. Based on observed player behaviour, though, it’s pretty hard.

SynfulChaot.3169:

jcbroe.4329:

In guild wars 2, I can really only see people checking to make sure a ranger would be running a power based build with a sword, or even greatsword (I have A LOT of guildies who seem to think that ranger greatsword is rangers #2 DPS weapon), with Spotter and Frost Spirit. I don’t mean full zerker either, people let me get away with my zerker/knight mixes already.

In fact, I’d go as far as saying guild wars 2 will be even less elitist than guild wars 1, because with no PvX wiki putting up meta builds and vetting builds and etc, there is no quick list for meta builds that the large population is aware of.

Yes, people are going to get asked to change their playstyles. But aren’t we already doing that? I mean, even here on the ranger forums, we take every measure to say things like “don’t run bearbow” without outright just telling people how to play.

I can see it being used a lot more than in GW1. The community here is more akin to the general MMO community. Based on my own observations of GW1 and the MMOs I’ve played, lets just say that GW1 was far more ‘allowing’ than any of the MMOs where you could view another’s gear/build.

And, as I stated before, some playstyles may be quite useful but will still get rejected as it isn’t what others wish of it. Such as running a condi instead of power build, even if the party doesn’t yet have any condi builds.

Now I really wish to be proven wrong. I really want to believe that people wouldn’t abuse the system to try to force specific meta builds on all others. Based on observed player behaviour, though, it’s pretty hard.

I really do agree, and think that that is a fair viewpoint on it.

I think I’m just more optimistic. Not that people won’t do it, but that the community is SO large that for every 1 guy who is trying to turn his party into speedruns, there’s going to be 4 other people who just want to do a dungeon with some people and bond over a dungeon.

I mean, to work in the lolbearbow argument, you would think, as much as the ranger community, and pretty much the entire in game community, badmouths and discourages bearbows, you would barely see them.

But there are so many of them that didn’t get them memo or don’t give a kitten lol. Sometimes I feel like I’m wading through bearbow rangers in big zergs, it’s that bad at times.

I just think it will be the same way with dungeons and a build ping system. You’ll have people going “no, only full zerkers, only these classes, only these traits” until the death of guild wars 2. And then you’ll have the huge masses of people that just say screw that noise, I’m just trying to play the game. And I think that the population will be split enough for each crowd of people to play exactly how they want.

I hated that GW1 ping system because it didn’t allow players to play how they wanted or spice common builds up. It was one of the aspects of GW1 I am (was?) glad are not totally a part of GW2. Really good players weren’t allowed to use non-standard builds because of the way people followed metas like sheep.

Nothing bad with following metas if that’s your personality and playstyle, but it’s a drag on those who don’t if you force those on them-like it almost always happens with pings or gearscore systems unless you exclusively play with friendly Guild members and/or friends.

I don’t think most people troll. Just ask for your requirements. I know that if you clearly state that you are elitist in your post I will steer clear from you to avoid a potentially annoying experience. Sure, not every speed runner is a jerk, but I rather save myself from bad experiences with people that play the games with different goals than mine. You don’t need my “gearscore” for this, because I may do “enough DPS” and still won’t want to party with someone who thinks he/she is too good to group up with certain people. I always honor all Dungeon requests, and don’t lie to get into groups (especially groups in which my playstyle isn’t welcome after all and I wouldn’t be having fun anyway.)

(The problem is that gearscores and pings will enforce the “this is the right build to play” even more than it already is right now. There’s not other way around it-it will happen, as it always does and also did in GW1.)

I think I’m just more optimistic. Not that people won’t do it, but that the community is SO large that for every 1 guy who is trying to turn his party into speedruns, there’s going to be 4 other people who just want to do a dungeon with some people and bond over a dungeon.

If it helps, despite all the horror stories, I’ve never taken flak for my being a ranger, and I tend to use Sword/Torch in dungeons right now (I’m building up a Power set after another Object-heavy dungeon irritated me, although I’m still thinking I won’t use Berserkers, because I kind of need that HP since I suck). And going off the forum posts, this should definitely get me kicked off a dungeon party, possibly with spitting.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Rutee.1058:

Now if it wasn’t viewable directly by others and you need to ping it then it isn’t as bad as people would be able to find the chat codes for it and then they could ping whatever the ‘elitists’ want them to while not sacrificing their own build on the whims of another.

The amount of effort it would take to look that up would appear to dwarf the effort to research an ‘acceptable’ build, no?

Also, wouldn’t the overall structure of the gear matter just as much as the trait lines, if not more? This isn’t at you, just in general.

Again, not necessarily true. I’d keep them on hand to sate those that want to force what they want me to play. I know I’m not running what many would consider to be optimal, yet I still find myself one of the last to fall and have very, very rarely had a complaint as to my performance. But based on my build, some would just pass me by.

And yes, gear matters strongly as well. Someone trying to force a condi geared ranger to run a damaging stat will, instead of getting better performance, will get someone far worse than if that player would bring their usual build.

I love how you’re solution to being put on the spot with a system that would force you to tell the truth is to figure out how to cheat the system so you can still lie. This is great because the whole point of this system is to prevent people from lying to the group about their build so other people who are not necessarily qualified to judge you or your build can decide if you’re acceptable.

It’s actually the same thing that I’ve considered since the first time I saw one of these ping suggestions. It shouldn’t be that hard to fake.

I am of the opinion that if you are pugging you should have to deal with whatever you get. If they are actively incompetent then kick them, but if they can do the encounters, whether they are perfect or not, too bad.

If you expect people to be using specific builds you shouldn’t be pugging in the first place.

Young Somalia.1706:

Linguistically Inept.6583:

Atherakhia.4086:

As if the Ranger is the only one who does this. You have Necromancers using conditions in dungeons.

could be worse… could be a condi ranger… or shudder condi guard… whilst i dont like condi necros in a party; they atleast do condis better than other classes in pve (except maybe enginader)

Atherakhia.4086:

Warriors using GS exclusively instead of Axe and swapping only for 100b

i… got confused… using only GS… but swapping only for hundred blades… a GS skill?

Using GS exclusively

INSTEAD OF

Using Axe (exclusively) and swapping (to GS) only for 100B

ah ofcourse; ty; i knew i was missing something

Everyone should play the game in the way they prefer, so long as it does not cause a detriment to other people’s enjoyment, within reason. As soon as your playstyle causes a detriment to someone else’s enjoyment, and it’s not unreasonable like “stop killing me in PvP” or “the color of your armor reminds me of my ex so change it”, you’ll need to change it.

Likewise, if you’re finding someone else’s playstyle to be detrimental to your enjoyment, don’t flip a table and go on a murderous rampage. Tell him/her politely, and suggest a playstyle that would not be detrimental to your enjoyment, or as a very last resort find enjoyment with someone else.

It’s called mutual consideration. Consider it.

/Ol’ Sage Jigain

Star Ace.5207:

I hated that GW1 ping system because it didn’t allow players to play how they wanted or spice common builds up. It was one of the aspects of GW1 I am (was?) glad are not totally a part of GW2. Really good players weren’t allowed to use non-standard builds because of the way people followed metas like sheep.

Nothing bad with following metas if that’s your personality and playstyle, but it’s a drag on those who don’t if you force those on them-like it almost always happens with pings or gearscore systems unless you exclusively play with friendly Guild members and/or friends.

I don’t think most people troll. Just ask for your requirements. I know that if you clearly state that you are elitist in your post I will steer clear from you to avoid a potentially annoying experience. Sure, not every speed runner is a jerk, but I rather save myself from bad experiences with people that play the games with different goals than mine. You don’t need my “gearscore” for this, because I may do “enough DPS” and still won’t want to party with someone who thinks he/she is too good to group up with certain people. I always honor all Dungeon requests, and don’t lie to get into groups (especially groups in which my playstyle isn’t welcome after all and I wouldn’t be having fun anyway.)

(The problem is that gearscores and pings will enforce the “this is the right build to play” even more than it already is right now. There’s not other way around it-it will happen, as it always does and also did in GW1.)

People already do this though. They yell at each other and have rude verbal exchanges and it’s a bad experience all around.
The difference is that currently, these exchanges are happening during the dungeon runs, when you find out just exactly how inept your teammates are (inept at what you wanted them to be doing versus what they are doing).

I loved the ping system in Guild Wars 1. For every person who may have been running an “off-meta” build, there were 10 people who were running (random example) an Axe build with no points in Axe Mastery, and all their points in Tactics and Hammers, with no Hammer or Tactics skills equipped.

The difference in Guild Wars 2 is that we don’t have a website that posts meta builds. How are all of the sheep going to follow a meta, when they don’t have a resource telling them what the meta is?

Even then, everybody is already always saying “full zerk or gtfo.”

The tool doesn’t force people to play a certain way. It allows party leaders to do a check, which is voluntary, to make sure that their party is aptly prepared to handle the dungeon, and/or built properly for the way that parties intent is to face that content.

Also, you can make your own party. Nobody is forcing anybody to play in any style because you can make your own party. In your party, you don’t have to do a build ping, you can just run a fun build. My Guild Wars 1 group allowed PuGs to run whatever they want, we just kindly asked them which weapon they were using, so we knew what role they’d be performing on the team. Nobody is making anybody do anything.

Nobody should have to suffer entering a dungeon with a group of players that they don’t want to be playing with. This is just as true for “meta” players and speedrunners as it is for people running offbeat builds. This isn’t random arenas, it’s instanced content that you are supposed to be prepared for since it’s supposed to be some of the most challenging content to complete in the game.

Kal Spiro.9745:

I love how your solution to being put on the spot with a system that would force you to tell the truth is to figure out how to cheat the system so you can still lie. This is great because the whole point of this system is to prevent people from lying to the group about their build so other people who are not necessarily qualified to judge you or your build can decide if you’re acceptable.

It’s actually the same thing that I’ve considered since the first time I saw one of these ping suggestions. It shouldn’t be that hard to fake.

I am of the opinion that if you are pugging you should have to deal with whatever you get. If they are actively incompetent then kick them, but if they can do the encounters, whether they are perfect or not, too bad.

If you expect people to be using specific builds you shouldn’t be pugging in the first place.

Yeah. That’s my feeling on it. If someone says they know what they’re doing, you should give them the benefit of the doubt the first time. If you’re so particular so as to want people to run specific builds, then go find yourself a guild/personal group. Don’t force your build wants on randoms. In a PUG, the only build that should truly matter is your own.

jcbroe.4329:

The tool doesn’t force people to play a certain way. It allows party leaders to do a check, which is voluntary, to make sure that their party is aptly prepared to handle the dungeon, and/or built properly for the way that parties intent is to face that content.

Also, you can make your own party. Nobody is forcing anybody to play in any style because you can make your own party. In your party, you don’t have to do a build ping, you can just run a fun build. My Guild Wars 1 group allowed PuGs to run whatever they want, we just kindly asked them which weapon they were using, so we knew what role they’d be performing on the team. Nobody is making anybody do anything.

Unfortunately voluntary checks have a habit of being unvoluntary. For many of those people who would demand a check, were you to not ping your build you’d be kicked shortly. Even if you were the one who started assembling the group in the first place as the game has no actual party leader mechanic.

Yeah voluntary gear checks for CoF became mandatory gear checks. Fine, it was only speed clear groups which only affected warriors. Then there were UW checks for the summoning stones, an arbitrary check but one people did anyway. Generally most high end content had people pinging a build, and to a certain extent in GW1 this was justified – end game groups played build wars and required specific rolls and advertised as such when forming a group. Guild Wars 2 is less like this. I don’t think the party combos you can do in GW2 come close to what you could do in GW1 so it makes less sense to create a tool for discrimination.

As far as the melee meta of GW2 goes I think it’s an example of how broken GW2 combat has become. Berserker builds break encounters, AI is exploited to the point that combat no longer has depth – it’s just stack and cleave. I will stack in AC for the spider boss. As dumb as it is, it’s not my responsibility to stop the exploit. Someone at ArenaNet should have changed the Queen’s AI so she used the AoE poison field in melee range killing off this strategy long ago. I think AI and mechanics need an overhaul. Mobs need to stop running around a corner and stacking up because of LoS. It removes the value of control and pull skills and further enhances the broken state of melee cleaves. More boss mobs need ways to punish melee stacked parties. In GW2 stacking in melee is becoming the best way to beat most content. If the mobs have skills that they only use on ranged groups, they need skills that they only use on melee groups. Ones that matter.

Until that happens it’s fair for players to play how they want in a casual pug. If you want a speed clear that only does melee stacking, advertise as such or bring your guild. A berserker longbow ranger at 1500 range is actually doing very good damage. They might miss out on melee buffs (in many pugs that’s not a huge loss) but they are safely putting out high DPS (longbow at max range is good DPS). As far as the average pug goes, I’d be more than happy to take that person.