Guild Wars 2

This is a constructive thread to help rangers understand how each of the recent changes to the class affects play. It was a horrible patch for rangers, that’s a sure thing. But let’s be intelligent about what it means.

Let’s explore why each of the 14/16 bullet points are “quality of life” improvements.

• Improved the effect chance on ranger spirits to 35% base and 50% when traited.

The spirits have an internal cooldown of ten seconds. This buff is much much less powerful than first glance would tell when more than a few attacks are made within the cooldown period.More here.

• Beastmastery minor traits now use the correct icon.

Cosmetic

• Splinter Shot: This skill’s damage is increased by 150%, and its bleeding duration is increased from 3 seconds to 4 seconds.

Someone wanna calculate the difference in damage maxed out?

• Counterattack: The blocking portion of this skill can now be used while moving. Ranged attacks will not trigger the second half of the skill.

Because moving out of the way is essential to triggering the counterattack
EDIT: I over looked, rather clumsily the benefit of being able to block ranged attacks. However, it’s no less sad that this seems to be, so far, the most powerful improvement for rangers in this patch. More here.

• Protecting Screech: This skill now states the correct duration of 4 seconds.

Cosmetic

• Call of the Wild: The Wilderness Survival trait Off-Hand Training now applies to this skill.

I can’t advocate for this one

• Throw Torch: The speed of the projectile has been increased.

I can’t advocate for this one

• Maul: This skill’s damage has been increased by 40%.

Can someone calculate the difference maxed out?

• Sun Spirit: The tooltip for this skill now displays the proper burning time of 3 seconds.

Cosmetic

• Whirling Defense: This skill was updated so that it interacts better with combo fields.

Can I give them this one, guys and gals?

• Splinter Shot: This skill is now a small projectile combo finisher.
  Coral Shot: This skill is now a projectile combo finisher.
  Feeding Frenzy: This skill is now a projectile combo finisher.
  Mercy Shot: This skill is now a projectile combo finisher.

I guess this might be nice when all of Tyria goes Orr on us. I didn’t even know after playing a ranger since launch that combos were possible underwater.
EDIT: There are (albeit ONLY) about half a dozen underwater fields, At least one is not controllable.

I think they might be counting the greatsword counter attack as a separated point that would bring it up to 15/16

The greatsword buff to skill 4 is actually probably the most significant part of our overall disappointing part in the patch. More mobility is always welcome, and it means that now we can block rapid range attacks, which is great.

No, it’s not. If I wanted play with GS, I would make a Warrior. Ironic patch: buff Warrior’s Longbow, and Archer’s GS, hahaha.

Rauphz.2869:

No, it’s not. If I wanted play with GS, I would make a Warrior. Ironic patch: buff Warrior’s Longbow, and Archer’s GS, hahaha.

“Check mate” on that one.

Really, who came up with that idea.

You couldn’t make it up.

There is so much wrong in this thread… and it’s very clear you do not use spirits if you think there is a 10 second internal CD…

GS got a huge buff, spirits got a huge buff, splinter shot got a massive buff (i can actually hurt things underwater with my 1 now!!) The 2 off hand things are buffs, CotW wasn’t getting the reduced CD or the increased area, now it does, throw torch would be able to miss if your target freaking crawled out of the way with how slow it went,now it lands a little better…

And then the last mass of underwater things i have no idea how those will help us… as far as i know there are no combo fields underwater…

Durzlla.6295:

There is so much wrong in this thread… and it’s very clear you do not use spirits if you think there is a 10 second internal CD…

GS got a huge buff, spirits got a huge buff, splinter shot got a massive buff (i can actually hurt things underwater with my 1 now!!) The 2 off hand things are buffs, CotW wasn’t getting the reduced CD or the increased area, now it does, throw torch would be able to miss if your target freaking crawled out of the way with how slow it went,now it lands a little better…

And then the last mass of underwater things i have no idea how those will help us… as far as i know there are no combo fields underwater…

It has been tested time and time again, and spirit effects do in fact, have a 10 second internal cooldown.

The greatsword buff was minor at best. Maul got a 40% damage increase. Great, it’s not like the greatsword’s auto attack needed more damage anyway. And now you can use a one shot block skill with a 20 second cooldown while moving.

Call of the Wild was a bug fix, not a buff. And throw torch didn’t need a speed buff at all. The increased speed doesn’t even help that much since the torch still travels slower than an arrow…and those can be dodged by dancing back and forth like an idiot.

As for the buff to our speargun…did we really need to deal more damage underwater? Is there even any meaningful underwater content to experience?

Durzlla.6295:

There is so much wrong in this thread… and it’s very clear you do not use spirits if you think there is a 10 second internal CD…

GS got a huge buff, spirits got a huge buff, splinter shot got a massive buff (i can actually hurt things underwater with my 1 now!!) The 2 off hand things are buffs, CotW wasn’t getting the reduced CD or the increased area, now it does, throw torch would be able to miss if your target freaking crawled out of the way with how slow it went,now it lands a little better…

And then the last mass of underwater things i have no idea how those will help us… as far as i know there are no combo fields underwater…

It’s nice to have conviction in what you believe, but saying others are wrong before you bring anything to the discussion is only serving to take away merit from your own points.

GS got a huge utility buff, the damage buff is nice but nothing to shout about unless you’re in the midst of a group of enemies.

I have indeed used spirits, you’re only showing yourself up by claiming there is no 10 second internal cooldown. There is. It even says so in the tooltip (which would hopefully be correct…3 months into the game..maybe not). This cooldown shows up well enough while beating on the training dummies.

Spirits still die too quickly from general AoE, rangers do enough attacks within 10s to make the ‘buff’ to the proc-on-hit chance nigh on useless.

You could hurt things underwater before, in melee. My guardian’s ranged underwater is still far more powerful than the rangers.

Rangers are fundamentally the most boring class to play, and I was hoping for much more to increase that diversity. All we got are buffs to things we really didn’t need buffs for.

Quarktastic.1027:

Durzlla.6295:

There is so much wrong in this thread… and it’s very clear you do not use spirits if you think there is a 10 second internal CD…

GS got a huge buff, spirits got a huge buff, splinter shot got a massive buff (i can actually hurt things underwater with my 1 now!!) The 2 off hand things are buffs, CotW wasn’t getting the reduced CD or the increased area, now it does, throw torch would be able to miss if your target freaking crawled out of the way with how slow it went,now it lands a little better…

And then the last mass of underwater things i have no idea how those will help us… as far as i know there are no combo fields underwater…

It has been tested time and time again, and spirit effects do in fact, have a 10 second internal cooldown.

The greatsword buff was minor at best. Maul got a 40% damage increase. Great, it’s not like the greatsword’s auto attack needed more damage anyway. And now you can use a one shot block skill with a 20 second cooldown while moving.

Call of the Wild was a bug fix, not a buff. And throw torch didn’t need a speed buff at all. The increased speed doesn’t even help that much since the torch still travels slower than an arrow…and those can be dodged by dancing back and forth like an idiot.

As for the buff to our speargun…did we really need to deal more damage underwater? Is there even any meaningful underwater content to experience?

Um, the block now blocks ALL projectiles as long as it’s being channeled, so in other words you dont take damage until someone comes up and hits you with a melee attack, yup awful truly truly awful…

And i use spirits religiously and there is NO internal CD, i have NEVER had to wait 10 seconds inbetween procs, and another way i know that “tested stat” is bull kitten is because it used to be a 15s internal CD that was “tested” then it went to a 3 second “tested” internal cd then it was 5, there is NO internal CD.

Durzlla.6295:

There is so much wrong in this thread… and it’s very clear you do not use spirits if you think there is a 10 second internal CD…

GS got a huge buff, spirits got a huge buff, splinter shot got a massive buff (i can actually hurt things underwater with my 1 now!!) The 2 off hand things are buffs, CotW wasn’t getting the reduced CD or the increased area, now it does, throw torch would be able to miss if your target freaking crawled out of the way with how slow it went,now it lands a little better…

And then the last mass of underwater things i have no idea how those will help us… as far as i know there are no combo fields underwater…

There are a total of 5 combo fields underwater. Two of them belong to the guardian (light and fire), the other three to our pets. One is a smoke field and cannot be controlled by the player, the other two are both a poison field.

voidelysium.7285:

Durzlla.6295:

There is so much wrong in this thread… and it’s very clear you do not use spirits if you think there is a 10 second internal CD…

GS got a huge buff, spirits got a huge buff, splinter shot got a massive buff (i can actually hurt things underwater with my 1 now!!) The 2 off hand things are buffs, CotW wasn’t getting the reduced CD or the increased area, now it does, throw torch would be able to miss if your target freaking crawled out of the way with how slow it went,now it lands a little better…

And then the last mass of underwater things i have no idea how those will help us… as far as i know there are no combo fields underwater…

It’s nice to have conviction in what you believe, but saying others are wrong before you bring anything to the discussion is only serving to take away merit from your own points.

GS got a huge utility buff, the damage buff is nice but nothing to shout about unless you’re in the midst of a group of enemies.

I have indeed used spirits, you’re only showing yourself up by claiming there is no 10 second internal cooldown. There is. It even says so in the tooltip (which would hopefully be correct…3 months into the game..maybe not). This cooldown shows up well enough while beating on the training dummies.

Spirits still die too quickly from general AoE, rangers do enough attacks within 10s to make the ‘buff’ to the proc-on-hit chance nigh on useless.

You could hurt things underwater before, in melee. My guardian’s ranged underwater is still far more powerful than the rangers.

Rangers are fundamentally the most boring class to play, and I was hoping for much more to increase that diversity. All we got are buffs to things we really didn’t need buffs for.

The tooltips are sadly, wrong on a ton of skills… for example, white moa, it says it applies regen…. yeah it hasn’t done that since BWE1… GS says it’s a knockback, it’s actually been changed to a knockdown, burning said it lasted 1s since BWE1 where it was changed in BWE3 to be a 3 second burn, the spirit of storm gives 7s of swiftness, not 3, Whirling Defense REFLECTS projectiles, it doesn’t block them.

Need i go on?

Krugan.7901:

Durzlla.6295:

There is so much wrong in this thread… and it’s very clear you do not use spirits if you think there is a 10 second internal CD…

GS got a huge buff, spirits got a huge buff, splinter shot got a massive buff (i can actually hurt things underwater with my 1 now!!) The 2 off hand things are buffs, CotW wasn’t getting the reduced CD or the increased area, now it does, throw torch would be able to miss if your target freaking crawled out of the way with how slow it went,now it lands a little better…

And then the last mass of underwater things i have no idea how those will help us… as far as i know there are no combo fields underwater…

There are a total of 5 combo fields underwater. Two of them belong to the guardian (light and fire), the other three to our pets. One is a smoke field and cannot be controlled by the player, the other two are both a poison field.

Huh, did not know this!! That’s fairly nice then, i’m assuming the poison fields are from Murrellow and the Marsh Drake?

Quarktastic.1027:

As for the buff to our speargun…did we really need to deal more damage underwater? Is there even any meaningful underwater content to experience?

Actually, I’ve done some pretty cool (PvE) stuff underwater, so I welcome the buff to the speargun. After lvl 40 or so I began to avoid underwater unless I saw others were grouping because I was noticeably weaker on DPS overall, even if I had the best -possible weapon for my current level. Can’t wait to try out some of the stuff I skipped, actually…

That said, I would have preferred improvements to my MAIN WEAPONS (SB and LB specifically, in that order…)

Durzlla.6295:

Quarktastic.1027:

Durzlla.6295:

There is so much wrong in this thread… and it’s very clear you do not use spirits if you think there is a 10 second internal CD…

GS got a huge buff, spirits got a huge buff, splinter shot got a massive buff (i can actually hurt things underwater with my 1 now!!) The 2 off hand things are buffs, CotW wasn’t getting the reduced CD or the increased area, now it does, throw torch would be able to miss if your target freaking crawled out of the way with how slow it went,now it lands a little better…

And then the last mass of underwater things i have no idea how those will help us… as far as i know there are no combo fields underwater…

It has been tested time and time again, and spirit effects do in fact, have a 10 second internal cooldown.

The greatsword buff was minor at best. Maul got a 40% damage increase. Great, it’s not like the greatsword’s auto attack needed more damage anyway. And now you can use a one shot block skill with a 20 second cooldown while moving.

Call of the Wild was a bug fix, not a buff. And throw torch didn’t need a speed buff at all. The increased speed doesn’t even help that much since the torch still travels slower than an arrow…and those can be dodged by dancing back and forth like an idiot.

As for the buff to our speargun…did we really need to deal more damage underwater? Is there even any meaningful underwater content to experience?

Um, the block now blocks ALL projectiles as long as it’s being channeled, so in other words you dont take damage until someone comes up and hits you with a melee attack, yup awful truly truly awful…

And i use spirits religiously and there is NO internal CD, i have NEVER had to wait 10 seconds inbetween procs, and another way i know that “tested stat” is bull kitten is because it used to be a 15s internal CD that was “tested” then it went to a 3 second “tested” internal cd then it was 5, there is NO internal CD.

Show me the proof of your spirits’ abilities happening more than once every 10 seconds and I will believe you. And the greatsword buff was still a minor one…considering the weapon still cuts like a dead fish.

Quarktastic.1027:

And the greatsword buff was still a minor one…considering the weapon still cuts like a dead fish.

I don’t know if I’d call it THAT weak, but it’s definitely not the melee weapon I prefer… it just FEELS weaker than anything else, even sword, which at least does some cool condition/dodging stuff and allows for different combos with the off-hand.

ImagoX.4718:

Quarktastic.1027:

And the greatsword buff was still a minor one…considering the weapon still cuts like a dead fish.

I don’t know if I’d call it THAT weak, but it’s definitely not the melee weapon I prefer… it just FEELS weaker than anything else, even sword, which at least does some cool condition/dodging stuff and allows for different combos with the off-hand.

Eh, i think it’s pretty major, but then again i run around with my great sword because it’s REALLY good with spirits because it cleaves everything in front of you, so many procs… not to mention i also roll it more for the utility then the damage, but i will say, the damage is fairly laughable, the utility/control on the other hand….

Quarktastic.1027:

Durzlla.6295:

Quarktastic.1027:

Durzlla.6295:

There is so much wrong in this thread… and it’s very clear you do not use spirits if you think there is a 10 second internal CD…

GS got a huge buff, spirits got a huge buff, splinter shot got a massive buff (i can actually hurt things underwater with my 1 now!!) The 2 off hand things are buffs, CotW wasn’t getting the reduced CD or the increased area, now it does, throw torch would be able to miss if your target freaking crawled out of the way with how slow it went,now it lands a little better…

And then the last mass of underwater things i have no idea how those will help us… as far as i know there are no combo fields underwater…

It has been tested time and time again, and spirit effects do in fact, have a 10 second internal cooldown.

The greatsword buff was minor at best. Maul got a 40% damage increase. Great, it’s not like the greatsword’s auto attack needed more damage anyway. And now you can use a one shot block skill with a 20 second cooldown while moving.

Call of the Wild was a bug fix, not a buff. And throw torch didn’t need a speed buff at all. The increased speed doesn’t even help that much since the torch still travels slower than an arrow…and those can be dodged by dancing back and forth like an idiot.

As for the buff to our speargun…did we really need to deal more damage underwater? Is there even any meaningful underwater content to experience?

Um, the block now blocks ALL projectiles as long as it’s being channeled, so in other words you dont take damage until someone comes up and hits you with a melee attack, yup awful truly truly awful…

And i use spirits religiously and there is NO internal CD, i have NEVER had to wait 10 seconds inbetween procs, and another way i know that “tested stat” is bull kitten is because it used to be a 15s internal CD that was “tested” then it went to a 3 second “tested” internal cd then it was 5, there is NO internal CD.

Show me the proof of your spirits’ abilities happening more than once every 10 seconds and I will believe you. And the greatsword buff was still a minor one…considering the weapon still cuts like a dead fish.

Yeah the thing is, it doesn’t matter whether you believe me or not, because whether you think i’m right, doesn’t matter because i know my spirits proc more then 10 seconds without a sliver of a doubt in my mind, you’d be the one kittening yourself not using the spirits because there’s some fictional internal CD.

Durzlla.6295:

Quarktastic.1027:

Durzlla.6295:

There is so much wrong in this thread… and it’s very clear you do not use spirits if you think there is a 10 second internal CD…

GS got a huge buff, spirits got a huge buff, splinter shot got a massive buff (i can actually hurt things underwater with my 1 now!!) The 2 off hand things are buffs, CotW wasn’t getting the reduced CD or the increased area, now it does, throw torch would be able to miss if your target freaking crawled out of the way with how slow it went,now it lands a little better…

And then the last mass of underwater things i have no idea how those will help us… as far as i know there are no combo fields underwater…

It has been tested time and time again, and spirit effects do in fact, have a 10 second internal cooldown.

The greatsword buff was minor at best. Maul got a 40% damage increase. Great, it’s not like the greatsword’s auto attack needed more damage anyway. And now you can use a one shot block skill with a 20 second cooldown while moving.

Call of the Wild was a bug fix, not a buff. And throw torch didn’t need a speed buff at all. The increased speed doesn’t even help that much since the torch still travels slower than an arrow…and those can be dodged by dancing back and forth like an idiot.

As for the buff to our speargun…did we really need to deal more damage underwater? Is there even any meaningful underwater content to experience?

Um, the block now blocks ALL projectiles as long as it’s being channeled, so in other words you dont take damage until someone comes up and hits you with a melee attack, yup awful truly truly awful…

And i use spirits religiously and there is NO internal CD, i have NEVER had to wait 10 seconds inbetween procs, and another way i know that “tested stat” is bull kitten is because it used to be a 15s internal CD that was “tested” then it went to a 3 second “tested” internal cd then it was 5, there is NO internal CD.

Durzla, I tested spirits again in HOTM there is an @ 10 second internal CD on Stone, Sun, and Storm starting I beleive when the boon/condition procs. For stone and Sun because of the nature of the 5 second chance to proc field(65 seconds during which you can proc an effect) I was reliably getting 7 procs each spirit at regular intervals. They were reliably coming one thousand 10 after previous proc. Tests pre patch is was getting 5-6 at 35% chance.

Storm is Awesome as I was getting 70 seconds of swiftness uptime reliably(10 times in a row)…At 50% proc chance boon would drop and reproc instantly(10 second duration but never stacks). And at 50% chance if it didn’t have an internal CD the odds of that occurring over my test run are like buying a winning lottery ticket. Previously at 35% I could get 60 but more reliably 50 seconds of coverage.

Stone at 7 procs is a 33% damage reduction with an uptime over 35% of the time. Likely a bigger improvement for my pet that will have their own procs plus the flow through from my buffs. AKA 33% damage reduction 70% of the time. Didn’t engineer a pet buff stacking test yet however to confirm how transferred buffs stack. Might also mean an ability to stack swiftness on the pet infinitely which would be a nice damage increase.

Frost spirit definitely has no CD as I was getting combat log strings of 3 and 4 in a row +10% damage shots in both 35% and 50% mode with similar drought potential (SO at 50% a 5% damage boost.

Now maybe HOTM isn’t a perfect testing environment but I know of no other place to easily shoot targets for 60 seconds straight without interuption to conduct it. My test of stone also isn’t perfect as it didn’t measure if there is not only a proc chance when you attack but when your attacked.

Balanced bow HOTM strip down to do barely any damage shoot golems with the pets out….

I also ran into an annoying ranger using them in conjunction with a necro and mesmer….. THankfully I had gs/LB and dropped the spirits as a priority.

Sprit benefits aren’t insignificant on a 2 person team(you plus pet) but impacting a large number of attackers they are very powerful.

hard part is keeping them alive.

Durzlla.6295:

Yeah the thing is, it doesn’t matter whether you believe me or not, because whether you think i’m right, doesn’t matter because i know my spirits proc more then 10 seconds without a sliver of a doubt in my mind, you’d be the one kittening yourself not using the spirits because there’s some fictional internal CD.

I’m a very poor player: I ONLY use spirits as my utilities. Partly because the only way I can feel useful to my party is to have a pod of glowing rainbow dolphins to show off. It makes me feel pretty fabulous.

My point: I’m not saying I believe you or that I don’t believe you. All I can say is that I envy you if it’s true. I count you as blessed to have somehow avoided this phenomenon.

@Arrys Hmmm, i guess i never noticed the CD because i normally run with Frost and Storm, and when i use burning it’s usually because i’m in a group of people (in which case between the 6+ of you it will never fall off).

And did you try it on multiple mobs? Because i know i’ve had protection and swiftness stacked up on me a lot (mostly swiftness because it lasts longer) but then again i normally charge into large groups of mobs greatsword swinging.

Zaith.9132:

Durzlla.6295:

Yeah the thing is, it doesn’t matter whether you believe me or not, because whether you think i’m right, doesn’t matter because i know my spirits proc more then 10 seconds without a sliver of a doubt in my mind, you’d be the one kittening yourself not using the spirits because there’s some fictional internal CD.

I’m a very poor player: I ONLY use spirits as my utilities. Partly because the only way I can feel useful to my party is to have a pod of glowing rainbow dolphins to show off. It makes me feel pretty fabulous.

My point: I’m not saying I believe you or that I don’t believe you. All I can say is that I envy you if it’s true. I count you as blessed to have somehow avoided this phenomenon.

I’ve learned one thing about ranger from these forums, if the forums says it’s underpowered, chances are it’s actually REALLY good and they just don’t know how to use it…

Maybe you can share your secret to using passive effects, Durzlla.

EDIT: This was the point of this thread. I didn’t comment on the items I didn’t try to understand. I asked questions of those who did understand to help fill out the “real mechanics”. And I already made an edit for the greatsword regarding my misunderstanding. This is a constructive thread. Another thread has already mentioned your surprising lack of a presence by name, Durzlla.

Zaith.9132:

• Improved the effect chance on ranger spirits to 35% base and 50% when traited.

The spirits have an internal cooldown of ten seconds. The effect can only be triggered once every ten seconds. If you attack 3 times, untraited, you are statistically promised the effect will trigger. The only way this buff helps is if you attack twice or less every ten seconds.

That’s not how probability works.
Here’s the chance you will get a proc given the number of times you attack (assuming a 35% proc chance each hit):

1. 35.0%
2. 57.8%
3. 72.5%
4. 82.1%
5. 88.4%
6. 92.5%
7. 95.1%
8. 96.8%
9. 97.9%
10. 98.7%

Tibbel.3450:

Zaith.9132:

• Improved the effect chance on ranger spirits to 35% base and 50% when traited.

The spirits have an internal cooldown of ten seconds. The effect can only be triggered once every ten seconds. If you attack 3 times, untraited, you are statistically promised the effect will trigger. The only way this buff helps is if you attack twice or less every ten seconds.

That’s not how probability works.
Here’s the chance you will get a proc given the number of times you attack (assuming a 35% proc chance each hit):

1. 35.0%
2. 57.8%
3. 72.5%
4. 82.1%
5. 88.4%
6. 92.5%
7. 95.1%
8. 96.8%
9. 97.9%
10. 98.7%

This may explain peoples “10 second internal CD” theory… 10 hits tend to take ~1sec each or so, but if you are both AoEing and using a skill that fires off shots faster then 1 second (IE barrage + rapid fire) you’ll get those 10 hits faster… anyone test that?

It’d also explain why with greatsword the effect procs the more people that are in melee range of me, more enemies, more hits per swing = more procs faster.

Tibbel, you’re talking progressively and theoretically. If I roll a 100 sided die 10 times, approximately 1/3 will end up 35 or lower. Every time it did, that effect would trigger. Your math is correct, but your logic is not. One is not promised a trigger if you roll a million times, granted.

Zaith.9132:

Tibbel, you’re talking progressively and theoretically. If I roll a 100 sided die 10 times, approximately 1/3 will end up 35 or lower. Every time it did, that effect would trigger. Your math is correct, but your logic is not. One is not promised a trigger if you roll a million times, granted.

Yeah but if you don’t get one after rolling a million times you may as well never play a game of chance again…

Well I dunno about that, but it’s an indication that the game is fixed. Rather than quitting, I’d recommend moving to another table. But that’s not what’s happening in GW2, thankfully.

Durzlla.6295:

@Arrys Hmmm, i guess i never noticed the CD because i normally run with Frost and Storm, and when i use burning it’s usually because i’m in a group of people (in which case between the 6+ of you it will never fall off).

And did you try it on multiple mobs? Because i know i’ve had protection and swiftness stacked up on me a lot (mostly swiftness because it lasts longer) but then again i normally charge into large groups of mobs greatsword swinging.

I was shooting golems. Didn’t get around to testing proc behavior while being attacked and shooting or with piercing bounce last night.

Basically doing 22 damage a hit you have to switch targets once. My data set is far to big for random chance of a real bad luck string over 10 seconds happening over dozens of test runs consistently in the same way every time.

The question is does stone also have a seperate proc chance when the enemy hits you? Even if it doesn’t a utility that is 33% damage reduction for 35% of the time isn’t really weak if you are in a durability build that is hard to kill. If your a glass cannon the way it procs not to helpful.

It’s a really easy test to run in HOTM get a balanced sb strip down unspec everything but your spirit line and swap back and forth between 35% proc chance and 50% proc chance while in the field of heavy golems. (spec 20 in marks to test piercing effect hitting multiple targets) I haven’t run that test yet. It’s an interesting point will get around to it tonight.

Swiftness at 70 second uptime potential and +5% damage boost strikes me as an intersting option in a 20/0/0/20/30 Bow/GS bm killer pet build. Boon transfer distance seems to have been increased to our pet(at east in pvp). Noticed it pre patch with my predator drone cat using HS to send a regen from mine to the nearby lord fight. Still have to test that as it may have been another player doing an aoe heal at same timing as me.

Going to test it tonight and see how far I can transfer boons and spirit buffs to my remote controlled killers. If my experience above is accurate my remote control pet kill build will be viable and quite de4adly having swiftness and damage boost.

In my own testing I’ve run into internal cooldowns. There’s a period of, lets say 10 seconds (which coincidentally matches the tooltip), where protection from the earth spirit just refuses to proc. Either I’m very unlucky or there’s an ICD.

So… very disappointed with the spirit buff. I was hoping for increased health or something to make them less susceptible to AoE damage. The proc chance increase is negligible due to the ICD.

Durzlla.6295:

Tibbel.3450:

Zaith.9132:

• Improved the effect chance on ranger spirits to 35% base and 50% when traited.

The spirits have an internal cooldown of ten seconds. The effect can only be triggered once every ten seconds. If you attack 3 times, untraited, you are statistically promised the effect will trigger. The only way this buff helps is if you attack twice or less every ten seconds.

That’s not how probability works.
Here’s the chance you will get a proc given the number of times you attack (assuming a 35% proc chance each hit):

1. 35.0%
2. 57.8%
3. 72.5%
4. 82.1%
5. 88.4%
6. 92.5%
7. 95.1%
8. 96.8%
9. 97.9%
10. 98.7%

This may explain peoples “10 second internal CD” theory… 10 hits tend to take ~1sec each or so, but if you are both AoEing and using a skill that fires off shots faster then 1 second (IE barrage + rapid fire) you’ll get those 10 hits faster… anyone test that?

It’d also explain why with greatsword the effect procs the more people that are in melee range of me, more enemies, more hits per swing = more procs faster.

This is interesting, we’ve got several people who are seemingly unaffected by internal cooldowns. Perhaps this is a bug of some sort? I have tried for the past 20mins to get both the stone and frost spirits to proc quicker than 10s using quickening zephyr + petswap quickness. I traited to have 50% chance to proc and still, no dice.

I am a greatsword/shortbow user by nature but neither those nor the longbow procced buffs at a rate of less than 10 seconds between. Maybe your traits/runes on your armour are different and that’s what’s causing the bug?

It’s worth noting that there are two pieces of the ranger trait line that provide the same buffs as these spirits. Dodge rolls grant protection (15 in wilderness) and swapping weapons grants swiftness (5 in skirmishing). Perhaps these are affecting what you see as the cooldowns for the spirits?

I’d appreciate someone with the lower cooldowns to do some testing.

voidelysium.7285:

Durzlla.6295:

Tibbel.3450:

Zaith.9132:

• Improved the effect chance on ranger spirits to 35% base and 50% when traited.

The spirits have an internal cooldown of ten seconds. The effect can only be triggered once every ten seconds. If you attack 3 times, untraited, you are statistically promised the effect will trigger. The only way this buff helps is if you attack twice or less every ten seconds.

That’s not how probability works.
Here’s the chance you will get a proc given the number of times you attack (assuming a 35% proc chance each hit):

1. 35.0%
2. 57.8%
3. 72.5%
4. 82.1%
5. 88.4%
6. 92.5%
7. 95.1%
8. 96.8%
9. 97.9%
10. 98.7%

This may explain peoples “10 second internal CD” theory… 10 hits tend to take ~1sec each or so, but if you are both AoEing and using a skill that fires off shots faster then 1 second (IE barrage + rapid fire) you’ll get those 10 hits faster… anyone test that?

It’d also explain why with greatsword the effect procs the more people that are in melee range of me, more enemies, more hits per swing = more procs faster.

This is interesting, we’ve got several people who are seemingly unaffected by internal cooldowns. Perhaps this is a bug of some sort? I have tried for the past 20mins to get both the stone and frost spirits to proc quicker than 10s using quickening zephyr + petswap quickness. I traited to have 50% chance to proc and still, no dice.

I am a greatsword/shortbow user by nature but neither those nor the longbow procced buffs at a rate of less than 10 seconds between. Maybe your traits/runes on your armour are different and that’s what’s causing the bug?

It’s worth noting that there are two pieces of the ranger trait line that provide the same buffs as these spirits. Dodge rolls grant protection (15 in wilderness) and swapping weapons grants swiftness (5 in skirmishing). Perhaps these are affecting what you see as the cooldowns for the spirits?

I’d appreciate someone with the lower cooldowns to do some testing.

Maybe it’s because i use the nature’s vengeance trait, from every spirit build i’ve seen on these forums not a single one of them had that trait, yet that’s the only trait i have buffing my spirits…

The swifntess HAS to be from the spirit, that’s my only source of swiftness, the protection roll trait is plausible for that though, because i do have that trait.

Someone said earlier that they weren’t hitting a CD on the frost spirit though, so idk what to say about you hitting the 10 second ICD wall.

I’ll do some testing on this over the weekend, see if natures vengeance actually plays a roll in this.

EDIT: Wait, was this ICD added with the patch? Because i haven’t played very much since the patch hit, only like an hour and a half max, so that could be a huge factor.

Durzlla.6295:

voidelysium.7285:

Durzlla.6295:

Tibbel.3450:

Zaith.9132:

• Improved the effect chance on ranger spirits to 35% base and 50% when traited.

The spirits have an internal cooldown of ten seconds. The effect can only be triggered once every ten seconds. If you attack 3 times, untraited, you are statistically promised the effect will trigger. The only way this buff helps is if you attack twice or less every ten seconds.

That’s not how probability works.
Here’s the chance you will get a proc given the number of times you attack (assuming a 35% proc chance each hit):

1. 35.0%
2. 57.8%
3. 72.5%
4. 82.1%
5. 88.4%
6. 92.5%
7. 95.1%
8. 96.8%
9. 97.9%
10. 98.7%

This may explain peoples “10 second internal CD” theory… 10 hits tend to take ~1sec each or so, but if you are both AoEing and using a skill that fires off shots faster then 1 second (IE barrage + rapid fire) you’ll get those 10 hits faster… anyone test that?

It’d also explain why with greatsword the effect procs the more people that are in melee range of me, more enemies, more hits per swing = more procs faster.

This is interesting, we’ve got several people who are seemingly unaffected by internal cooldowns. Perhaps this is a bug of some sort? I have tried for the past 20mins to get both the stone and frost spirits to proc quicker than 10s using quickening zephyr + petswap quickness. I traited to have 50% chance to proc and still, no dice.

I am a greatsword/shortbow user by nature but neither those nor the longbow procced buffs at a rate of less than 10 seconds between. Maybe your traits/runes on your armour are different and that’s what’s causing the bug?

It’s worth noting that there are two pieces of the ranger trait line that provide the same buffs as these spirits. Dodge rolls grant protection (15 in wilderness) and swapping weapons grants swiftness (5 in skirmishing). Perhaps these are affecting what you see as the cooldowns for the spirits?

I’d appreciate someone with the lower cooldowns to do some testing.

Maybe it’s because i use the nature’s vengeance trait, from every spirit build i’ve seen on these forums not a single one of them had that trait, yet that’s the only trait i have buffing my spirits…

The swifntess HAS to be from the spirit, that’s my only source of swiftness, the protection roll trait is plausible for that though, because i do have that trait.

Someone said earlier that they weren’t hitting a CD on the frost spirit though, so idk what to say about you hitting the 10 second ICD wall.

I’ll do some testing on this over the weekend, see if natures vengeance actually plays a roll in this.

EDIT: Wait, was this ICD added with the patch? Because i haven’t played very much since the patch hit, only like an hour and a half max, so that could be a huge factor.

I had used my test method pre and post patch. Overall number of boon procs remain consistent as a variable and I wasn’t focused at that time on the period between procs although it was there and using my test method patterns I also wasn’t seeing stacking. It does seem slighlty different. That is the 10 seconds is glaringly obvious now, don’t think I would have missed that level of consistency previously but might have.

I was going to test the GS multiple target theory tonight. I’ll add natures venegeance as a control variable after baselining hitting mutliple targets in 1 attack. I rarely use it and it definitely wasn’t in any test I ran previously.

Zaith.9132:

Tibbel, you’re talking progressively and theoretically. If I roll a 100 sided die 10 times, approximately 1/3 will end up 35 or lower.

Right, and when you rolled it 10 times, you’d have a 98.7% chance of at least one proc.
I’m not sure what you mean by progressively. If you mean cumulatively, then you’re correct — and cumulative probability is important when considering a proc with a cooldown.

Zaith.9132:

Every time it did, that effect would trigger.

This is what is disputed by the claim that there’s an internal cooldown.

Sorry, Tibbel, I thought you were on the other side of the claims

For others: I did mean cumulative as Tibbel guessed – progressive is suggestive of tests done in sequence, where not all tests here are. What we’re seeing is many tests independent of each other which consistently point to the minimum chance of a trigger.

It’s simpler to look at it this way: If there was no cool down, there would still be a considerably greater chance (a 10-15% chance) that the effect of a spirit will trigger twice in a row. However that is not what is being reported. It’s true that it takes 10 attacks to reasonably expect you get at least one trigger. But considering we have weapons that attack faster than once/second and we consistently can’t get more than one trigger every ten seconds… you can’t do anything with percentages without interpretation.

Thanks for provoking this much needed clarification. I’ll update the language of the OP

EDIT: By “other side of the claims” I don’t mean that the claims some players aren’t experiencing the cooldown, as has been suggested, are illegitimate. Back to the lab! lol

Hey don’t worry this vid proves that ranger’s can still be competent as ranged damage dealers-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ru_rXq2LYg0
oh wait..

It’s funny, sad and true Zox, but can we try to keep this thread on topic? Just trying to explain the real mechanics of these updates. Why some bullets are a joke, and how to use the few that are slightly useful to our best advantage. This is a service to rangers inspired by the negligence of the development team. Let’s support each other while Anet is boycotting the profession.

Ugh… so, yeah after playing post patch there is most certainly an ICD that either wasn’t there, or that i wasn’t experiencing earlier… so spirits essentially went from pretty good to “Eh” in about one change…

Anet take your “buff” back i want to be unhindered by your stupid ICD!

I haven’t seen any math or proof in this thread that’s satisfied the question of whether Spirits of an Internal CD or not.

The fact that a lot of tooltips are wrong is a good point in favor of the opposition to the internal CD, but I think there must be an CD for balance purposes (Rapid Fire+Procs, quickness sword attacks, etc.) or stacks would be quite high.

Durzlla.6295:

Ugh… so, yeah after playing post patch there is most certainly an ICD that either wasn’t there, or that i wasn’t experiencing earlier… so spirits essentially went from pretty good to “Eh” in about one change…

Anet take your “buff” back i want to be unhindered by your stupid ICD!

my notes from the pre patch test had me believing the CD at that time operated in 2 ways.

1.) no boon stacking
2.) only one proc chance per 5 second buff window from the field the spirit applies to you.

If that was the system I could see armor runes extending boon duration perhaps interacting in ways that enabled stacking.

Were you using any of those?