Guild Wars 2

Ryou.2398:

infantrydiv.1620:

Although I’m not entirely unhappy with today’s Ranger buffs (and the Taunt fix which was totally called for), changes like what happened to Heal as One tells me that Arenanet continues to not listen to actual Ranger feedback.

The kind of buffs we needed were the kind of buffs Necromancer got: good buffs to weak weapon sets and utilities.

We’ve seen Arenanet leave specific weaponsets at meta-breaking levels of imbalance for YEARS (take a look at Hambow or D/D ele) and this imo is the #1 cause of stale meta feeling. I hate to see this happening to the Ranger, which although weak during the Cele Ele/Engineer meta, was still well balanced internally.

We don’t need some weird insane might stack + perma quickness tied around a heal skill. It’s janky and random and in all honesty not fun.

Ranger is now pretty much a Longbow based class. It’s like Warrior was, but worse, because the Longbow is entirely dominant among all the weapon sets.

Greatsword attacks remain pitifully weak (when you exclude cheese might swapping or cheesy cooldown stacking like Signet of the Hunt +Signet of the Wild).

Mainhand Axe does pretty wretched power based damage, and Bleeding damage was just nerfed by 20% in the condi damage patch. Unlike necromancer scepter or Axe, we’ve received entirely no compensation for this.

Shortbow is now officially one of the worst weapons in the game. Seriously, try killing an Elementalist or Warrior or Thief or Mesmer or anything with Shortbow as a condi Ranger. It’s also incredibly poorly designed with the entire bulk of damage residing in #2 and the autoattack.

Today we got a buff to Warhorn 5, but not Warhorn 4 which is the skill everyone has been saying needs to be changed for YEARS.

And finally (I’m not gonna even discuss OH Axe at this point), we are still stuck with a dysfunctional sword autoattack that locks us in place. Imagine if Mesmer or Thief sword autos stuck them in place… I wonder how long ago it would have been changed.

Now what I’m worried about is that with this awful Heal as One change (which should be reverted, or have its functionality drastically reduced), Ranger balance has been thrown entirely out of whack and we’ll start seeing weird nerfs because of it.

I do appreciate that the devs are trying to bring Ranger back into the PvP meta, but buffs like this go about it the wrong way.

Also, what they did to Spirits is truly a shame, because the utility was entirely balanced in PvP and WvW roaming, seeing some use, but not over represented. They took that and destroyed it entirely.

Shortbow wasnt nerfed was it?

Yeah, it was one of the first nerfs rangers got.

That’s why you wait for druid that brings an unreflectable autoattack and what is basically Mirror Blade at 1200 range, but spread over 5s. Ah, and enough heals to make you forget about your actual Heal skill.

Sina.9208:

Ryou.2398:

infantrydiv.1620:

Although I’m not entirely unhappy with today’s Ranger buffs (and the Taunt fix which was totally called for), changes like what happened to Heal as One tells me that Arenanet continues to not listen to actual Ranger feedback.

The kind of buffs we needed were the kind of buffs Necromancer got: good buffs to weak weapon sets and utilities.

We’ve seen Arenanet leave specific weaponsets at meta-breaking levels of imbalance for YEARS (take a look at Hambow or D/D ele) and this imo is the #1 cause of stale meta feeling. I hate to see this happening to the Ranger, which although weak during the Cele Ele/Engineer meta, was still well balanced internally.

We don’t need some weird insane might stack + perma quickness tied around a heal skill. It’s janky and random and in all honesty not fun.

Ranger is now pretty much a Longbow based class. It’s like Warrior was, but worse, because the Longbow is entirely dominant among all the weapon sets.

Greatsword attacks remain pitifully weak (when you exclude cheese might swapping or cheesy cooldown stacking like Signet of the Hunt +Signet of the Wild).

Mainhand Axe does pretty wretched power based damage, and Bleeding damage was just nerfed by 20% in the condi damage patch. Unlike necromancer scepter or Axe, we’ve received entirely no compensation for this.

Shortbow is now officially one of the worst weapons in the game. Seriously, try killing an Elementalist or Warrior or Thief or Mesmer or anything with Shortbow as a condi Ranger. It’s also incredibly poorly designed with the entire bulk of damage residing in #2 and the autoattack.

Today we got a buff to Warhorn 5, but not Warhorn 4 which is the skill everyone has been saying needs to be changed for YEARS.

And finally (I’m not gonna even discuss OH Axe at this point), we are still stuck with a dysfunctional sword autoattack that locks us in place. Imagine if Mesmer or Thief sword autos stuck them in place… I wonder how long ago it would have been changed.

Now what I’m worried about is that with this awful Heal as One change (which should be reverted, or have its functionality drastically reduced), Ranger balance has been thrown entirely out of whack and we’ll start seeing weird nerfs because of it.

I do appreciate that the devs are trying to bring Ranger back into the PvP meta, but buffs like this go about it the wrong way.

Also, what they did to Spirits is truly a shame, because the utility was entirely balanced in PvP and WvW roaming, seeing some use, but not over represented. They took that and destroyed it entirely.

Shortbow wasnt nerfed was it?

Yeah, it was one of the first nerfs rangers got.

But I liked shortbow, no more condition builds with shortbow now? Why on earth are they nerfing it?

I needs to be changed to have the same table as Fortifying Bond

Thats the most likely thing i see happening.

Sigmoid.7082:

I needs to be changed to have the same table as Fortifying Bond

Thats the most likely thing i see happening.

As much as I want Ranger to be a bit OP for a while at least, I think this is a good idea. I, however, think that the durations should be removed from FB. So the pet gets the full durations from you from “WHaO!” and FB and you gain the shorter duration boons (like FB is now) from the pet with “WHaO!”. That would be better balance imo.

Im not sure why it was even buffed in the first place. It has already highest hp/s in game.
They could just have made a new healing skill – signet with this function.

What I see from this topic is that many players get annoyed by the fact now they are killed in short burst by ranger, whom are ubiquitously regarded as kittened pew pew/cannon fodders. Those people are who give only complains without any concrete contribution (e.g. Op as fok) or explanations.

On the other hand, we have players who command rangers, understand the profession so deeply that they can give constructive feedback on the pros and cons of the build. As we can see, burst damage is to counter attrition/survival class, while condi/cc build is the main source of shutting down burst dealer. The HoA rotation is a high risk-reward mechanism, in which rangers sacrifices condition removal (signet? 60 seconds CD or 40 sir). One good timed CC and a series of DoT/arcane thievery (mesmer)/bountiful thief (obviously?)/ endure pain (warrior)/retaliakittengtion (guardian) will finish everything rangers have. It is all for nothing if specced for quickness or a slow death by DoT.

Let’s face it. We like diversity, not a general stereotypes of spec. Rangers in HoT can be extremely durable, or deadly with HoA. That is diversity in my book. Warrior has such privilege long ago, now boosted by Last Stand. Memser shatter build stack huge DoT or damage spike in about 5 seconds (search youtube for mesmer). Rangers now has their distinctive edge (i.e. boon machine), so keep it that way. Everyone get pumped in recent patch.

Photinous.4628:

While I agree with you for PvP, I really think buffs like this are what ranger needs to bring its DPS up to where ele and thief is in PvE. The quickness + 25 might achievable from this buff really beefs up ranger DPS in dungeons and fractals to a level where I actually feel like I’m contributing to the group damage wise.

Um, in any dungeon you have a PSEA warrior might capping for you and an ele fury capping, and a mesmer/guardian providing quickness.

This patch did virtually zero for PvE rangers besides giving pets condi damage, which is such a marginal increase to a pet who makes only 10-17% of your DPS.

I see a lot of people saying We Heal As One (WHAO) needs to be toned down. That may be true for PvP, I don’t play PvP so I wouldn’t know. But for PvE I don’t think its too bad. We have had ridiculously OP stuff on other classes for ages, I don’t see a problem with having something strong that differentiates us on rangers.

So here’s the main thing I wanted to say.
If a fix for WHAO is needed, please split the skill for PvP and PvE and fix the PvP side. The PvE side is fine, it adds quite interesting gameplay and even though there is a possibility to create insane boon uptimes, it also takes considerable investment (for example you need to spec into Nature Magic to get Fortifying Bond while most of the other traits there are useless for a power ranger).

Just my two cents
Thanks

Ryou.2398:

Sina.9208:

Ryou.2398:

infantrydiv.1620:

Although I’m not entirely unhappy with today’s Ranger buffs (and the Taunt fix which was totally called for), changes like what happened to Heal as One tells me that Arenanet continues to not listen to actual Ranger feedback.

The kind of buffs we needed were the kind of buffs Necromancer got: good buffs to weak weapon sets and utilities.

We’ve seen Arenanet leave specific weaponsets at meta-breaking levels of imbalance for YEARS (take a look at Hambow or D/D ele) and this imo is the #1 cause of stale meta feeling. I hate to see this happening to the Ranger, which although weak during the Cele Ele/Engineer meta, was still well balanced internally.

We don’t need some weird insane might stack + perma quickness tied around a heal skill. It’s janky and random and in all honesty not fun.

Ranger is now pretty much a Longbow based class. It’s like Warrior was, but worse, because the Longbow is entirely dominant among all the weapon sets.

Greatsword attacks remain pitifully weak (when you exclude cheese might swapping or cheesy cooldown stacking like Signet of the Hunt +Signet of the Wild).

Mainhand Axe does pretty wretched power based damage, and Bleeding damage was just nerfed by 20% in the condi damage patch. Unlike necromancer scepter or Axe, we’ve received entirely no compensation for this.

Shortbow is now officially one of the worst weapons in the game. Seriously, try killing an Elementalist or Warrior or Thief or Mesmer or anything with Shortbow as a condi Ranger. It’s also incredibly poorly designed with the entire bulk of damage residing in #2 and the autoattack.

Today we got a buff to Warhorn 5, but not Warhorn 4 which is the skill everyone has been saying needs to be changed for YEARS.

And finally (I’m not gonna even discuss OH Axe at this point), we are still stuck with a dysfunctional sword autoattack that locks us in place. Imagine if Mesmer or Thief sword autos stuck them in place… I wonder how long ago it would have been changed.

Now what I’m worried about is that with this awful Heal as One change (which should be reverted, or have its functionality drastically reduced), Ranger balance has been thrown entirely out of whack and we’ll start seeing weird nerfs because of it.

I do appreciate that the devs are trying to bring Ranger back into the PvP meta, but buffs like this go about it the wrong way.

Also, what they did to Spirits is truly a shame, because the utility was entirely balanced in PvP and WvW roaming, seeing some use, but not over represented. They took that and destroyed it entirely.

Shortbow wasnt nerfed was it?

Yeah, it was one of the first nerfs rangers got.

But I liked shortbow, no more condition builds with shortbow now? Why on earth are they nerfing it?

They nerfed it nearly 3 years ago. The recent condi patch was an indirect nerf only, but I do agree it is pretty bad in all game modes right now.

I don’t think it needs any changes but if it is going to get nerfed they will do it in all modes. In that case the most fair way to do it would be to make it work exactly like Fortifying Bond where you do not copy the actual duration of the boons but get a preset duration. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fortifying_Bond

Also depending on how difficult the hot pve is gona be nature magic may not be all that bad to spec in to. You can take bountiful hunter for some flat dmg and nature’s vengeance with frost spirit and storm spirit for a pary wide dmg buff and vunrebility application.

infantrydiv.1620:

We don’t need some weird insane might stack + perma quickness tied around a heal skill. It’s janky and random and in all honesty not fun.

How do you achieve perma quickness? Or do you mean perma swiftness?

This could be a way to do it but it would reduce this skill’s potential in PvE quite a bit. I see no problem in splitting the skill for PvE and PvP so both sides can be happy. Balancing the whole game based on PvP gives you weird artifacts like the state Necro is in now (quite good in PvP as I’ve read, not all that great for PvE).

All in all, I hope no change will come to this skill at all.

Edit: Reading the other threads, its quite sad to see how the PvP community seems to think that the entire game should be balanced around their wishes. Why should one game type be favored above others? I get it that A-Net is trying to push for E-Sports but I don’t think it’s right to sacrifice other people’s (the PvE crowd) experience for it.

PimmoZ.5497:

infantrydiv.1620:

We don’t need some weird insane might stack + perma quickness tied around a heal skill. It’s janky and random and in all honesty not fun.

How do you achieve perma quickness? Or do you mean perma swiftness?

WS/NM/BM trait line, Zephyr’s speed, Quickening Zephyr, sigil of rage, WHaO is nearly perm quickness

Look, for the first time since the druid spec has been announced, I am torn on which other two traitlines I am going to choose.

Marksmanship is just so overpowered in PvE that is looks like an obvious choice.
Since the WHaO change I am actually considering going with Nature Magic instead.

For the first time, I feel like I have a choice, any change to WHaO will ruin that. At least I won’t have to worry then which way to go.

Will it get nerfed for the sake of PvP, probably. Is a nerf necessary in PvE, probably not.

Anet, plz let us set each pet skill individually on auto-use or don’t use. (hate when my pet has 50s of swiftness and decides to stand in place to cast swiftness on himself lagging behind his target during the process. it does the opposite what it should do. Many other pet skills are not worh usign in certain situations either.

Also giving condi dmg to pets is a good start but what they lack is condi skill. barely any pet has any condis and even if they do its not enough especially after the condi rework where 2 stacks of the poison is the equvalent of 1 old stack of poison or so in the old system.

Crippling shot on SB: It uses pet’s condition damage (controversal with the tooltip which suggests it takes the ranger’s into consideration.) Also pets have way less condi dmg than the ranger even after the change

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Sigmoid.7082:

I needs to be changed to have the same table as Fortifying Bond

Thats the most likely thing i see happening.

As much as I want Ranger to be a bit OP for a while at least, I think this is a good idea. I, however, think that the durations should be removed from FB. So the pet gets the full durations from you from “WHaO!” and FB and you gain the shorter duration boons (like FB is now) from the pet with “WHaO!”. That would be better balance imo.

What exactly do you think is OP about that build? Did you even play it? It really isn’t.

• Remove boon effect from We Heal As One
• Remove Fortfying Bond
• Boons applied to pet are automatically given to the Ranger instead (including duration)
• Boons on the Ranger affect the pet as well.
• Traits that give boons to the Ranger + Pet will only give them to the Ranger instead (Quickening Zephyr).

• Ranger can be at 1500 range and still get boons through the pet standing at melee range together with the rest of the party.
• Rangers can finally see the boons applied to the pet, because they’re the same as his own.
• Conditions would still be applied seperate.

Ryou.2398:

Sina.9208:

Ryou.2398:

infantrydiv.1620:

Although I’m not entirely unhappy with today’s Ranger buffs (and the Taunt fix which was totally called for), changes like what happened to Heal as One tells me that Arenanet continues to not listen to actual Ranger feedback.

The kind of buffs we needed were the kind of buffs Necromancer got: good buffs to weak weapon sets and utilities.

We’ve seen Arenanet leave specific weaponsets at meta-breaking levels of imbalance for YEARS (take a look at Hambow or D/D ele) and this imo is the #1 cause of stale meta feeling. I hate to see this happening to the Ranger, which although weak during the Cele Ele/Engineer meta, was still well balanced internally.

We don’t need some weird insane might stack + perma quickness tied around a heal skill. It’s janky and random and in all honesty not fun.

Ranger is now pretty much a Longbow based class. It’s like Warrior was, but worse, because the Longbow is entirely dominant among all the weapon sets.

Greatsword attacks remain pitifully weak (when you exclude cheese might swapping or cheesy cooldown stacking like Signet of the Hunt +Signet of the Wild).

Mainhand Axe does pretty wretched power based damage, and Bleeding damage was just nerfed by 20% in the condi damage patch. Unlike necromancer scepter or Axe, we’ve received entirely no compensation for this.

Shortbow is now officially one of the worst weapons in the game. Seriously, try killing an Elementalist or Warrior or Thief or Mesmer or anything with Shortbow as a condi Ranger. It’s also incredibly poorly designed with the entire bulk of damage residing in #2 and the autoattack.

Today we got a buff to Warhorn 5, but not Warhorn 4 which is the skill everyone has been saying needs to be changed for YEARS.

And finally (I’m not gonna even discuss OH Axe at this point), we are still stuck with a dysfunctional sword autoattack that locks us in place. Imagine if Mesmer or Thief sword autos stuck them in place… I wonder how long ago it would have been changed.

Now what I’m worried about is that with this awful Heal as One change (which should be reverted, or have its functionality drastically reduced), Ranger balance has been thrown entirely out of whack and we’ll start seeing weird nerfs because of it.

I do appreciate that the devs are trying to bring Ranger back into the PvP meta, but buffs like this go about it the wrong way.

Also, what they did to Spirits is truly a shame, because the utility was entirely balanced in PvP and WvW roaming, seeing some use, but not over represented. They took that and destroyed it entirely.

Shortbow wasnt nerfed was it?

Yeah, it was one of the first nerfs rangers got.

But I liked shortbow, no more condition builds with shortbow now? Why on earth are they nerfing it?

he means the nerfs somewhere around 2y ago not now – you know it used to have 1200 range and a little bit faster attack before said patch 2 years ago….

Kicker.8203:

Crippling shot on SB: It uses pet’s condition damage (controversal with the tooltip which suggests it takes the ranger’s into consideration.) Also pets have way less condi dmg than the ranger even after the change

I never had 1300 condi damage myself :P
[and my devourer now has it muhahahahahahaha]

Lord Trejgon.2809:

Ryou.2398:

Sina.9208:

Ryou.2398:

infantrydiv.1620:

Although I’m not entirely unhappy with today’s Ranger buffs (and the Taunt fix which was totally called for), changes like what happened to Heal as One tells me that Arenanet continues to not listen to actual Ranger feedback.

The kind of buffs we needed were the kind of buffs Necromancer got: good buffs to weak weapon sets and utilities.

We’ve seen Arenanet leave specific weaponsets at meta-breaking levels of imbalance for YEARS (take a look at Hambow or D/D ele) and this imo is the #1 cause of stale meta feeling. I hate to see this happening to the Ranger, which although weak during the Cele Ele/Engineer meta, was still well balanced internally.

We don’t need some weird insane might stack + perma quickness tied around a heal skill. It’s janky and random and in all honesty not fun.

Ranger is now pretty much a Longbow based class. It’s like Warrior was, but worse, because the Longbow is entirely dominant among all the weapon sets.

Greatsword attacks remain pitifully weak (when you exclude cheese might swapping or cheesy cooldown stacking like Signet of the Hunt +Signet of the Wild).

Mainhand Axe does pretty wretched power based damage, and Bleeding damage was just nerfed by 20% in the condi damage patch. Unlike necromancer scepter or Axe, we’ve received entirely no compensation for this.

Shortbow is now officially one of the worst weapons in the game. Seriously, try killing an Elementalist or Warrior or Thief or Mesmer or anything with Shortbow as a condi Ranger. It’s also incredibly poorly designed with the entire bulk of damage residing in #2 and the autoattack.

Today we got a buff to Warhorn 5, but not Warhorn 4 which is the skill everyone has been saying needs to be changed for YEARS.

And finally (I’m not gonna even discuss OH Axe at this point), we are still stuck with a dysfunctional sword autoattack that locks us in place. Imagine if Mesmer or Thief sword autos stuck them in place… I wonder how long ago it would have been changed.

Now what I’m worried about is that with this awful Heal as One change (which should be reverted, or have its functionality drastically reduced), Ranger balance has been thrown entirely out of whack and we’ll start seeing weird nerfs because of it.

I do appreciate that the devs are trying to bring Ranger back into the PvP meta, but buffs like this go about it the wrong way.

Also, what they did to Spirits is truly a shame, because the utility was entirely balanced in PvP and WvW roaming, seeing some use, but not over represented. They took that and destroyed it entirely.

Shortbow wasnt nerfed was it?

Yeah, it was one of the first nerfs rangers got.

But I liked shortbow, no more condition builds with shortbow now? Why on earth are they nerfing it?

he means the nerfs somewhere around 2y ago not now – you know it used to have 1200 range and a little bit faster attack before said patch 2 years ago….

Kicker.8203:

Crippling shot on SB: It uses pet’s condition damage (controversal with the tooltip which suggests it takes the ranger’s into consideration.) Also pets have way less condi dmg than the ranger even after the change

I never had 1300 condi damage myself :P
[and my devourer now has it muhahahahahahaha]

Ahh yea im not worried about it then.

From a PVE standpoint I like the changes personally. As someone who used WHaO prior to the patch (only because I’m specced for Resounding Timbre) this is great. My Phalanx War built might stacks just as easy so I don’t see what the problem is there.

I agree that weapons could use some buffs, Axe should be slightly reworked as just a power weapon IMO as opposed to some weird hybrid.

Saying something isn’t fun is subjective, I want my build to be effective and entertaining and if it gets more out of its buffs now then that’s fun to me. WHaO never gave me anything aside from what Resounding Timbre gave and now its got great utility as well. If the other heals suck in comparison then maybe they could be given better utility.

As for PVP/WvW running WHaO seems risky with Necros and Thieves corrupting or stealing them.

These changes are a ramp up to the expansion and as nobody but Anet knows what that really entails maybe there is a possibility we want or need these changes?

The change was exactly what we needed. What is everyone complaining about?

I have honestly no clue about PvE but for PvP the quickness uptime is not problematic at all. The might is the strong thing but like I said a billion times already you have to sacrifice a lot of stuff to get the 25 stacks.

How do people even think popping QZ and your heal and constantly swapping pets would be worth it at all.

#just saying

1) there is counter play to boon stacking
2) Only works with pets unstowed and alive

Khadez.4958:

This could be a way to do it but it would reduce this skill’s potential in PvE quite a bit.

The issue isn’t the skill’s potential in PvP or PvE. The problem is much more fundamental.

When Anet makes a skill, it has several variables to control its strength, it’s impact on the game (PvE, PvP, and WvV). One is obviously the effect. Then there’s the duration. Finally there’s the cooldown. The latter two combine to form a percent uptime, which you can multiply by the magnitude of the effect to get its time-weighted effect.

The current mechanic with WHaO completely screws that up. I’m trying to avoid a mathematical explanation, but I can’t think of a way around it. In the math of infinite series, there are divergent series and convergent series. A convergent series approaches a fixed value. 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + … which each subsequent number being half the previous converges on 2. A convergent series is well-behaved, and you can easily modify it. 2 * (1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + … ) = 4.

A divergent series blows up to infinity. 1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 + … approaches infinity (very slowly, but it does). And obviously infinite anything can be very unbalancing.

The current mechanic of WHaO takes well-behaved skills which act like a convergent series, and under certain reasonably easy-to-attain circumstances makes them blow up like a divergent series. The only reason we’re not seeing more unbalancing effects from WHaO is because it eventually runs into the boon stacking and duration limits.

Not only is that horribly unbalancing. but it makes it extraordinarily difficult if not impossible to balance other skills. Anet could balance (say) Guard – they’re happy with its effect, duration, and uptime. Something else like Resounding Timbre act as a mere multiplier – by reducing cooldown 20%, you increase the uptime of Guard’s effect (percent of time the pet has protection up) by 25%.

Now you throw in WHaO, and it can cause the effect to blow up to permanent uptime. In some cases there’s no way to fix it (the effect will always blow up to permanent uptime). In others, you can fix it, but only by nerfing Guard so badly that the skill without WHaO is effectively useless.

This isn’t how you design good game mechanics. You want all the skill effects to be controlled and predictable. Even permanent uptime in itself is acceptable if the work needed to maintain it occupies enough of the player’s time that it reduces their damage output. But WHaO’s mechanic is such that beyond a certain duration, the increase in duration with each application grows exponentially, making it horribly broken.

Capping the duration of each boon WHaO copies would stop the divergent/exponential duration growth and bring it back under control, making it compatible with a well-balanced game again.

Solandri.9640:

Khadez.4958:

This could be a way to do it but it would reduce this skill’s potential in PvE quite a bit.

The issue isn’t the skill’s potential in PvP or PvE. The problem is much more fundamental.

When Anet makes a skill, it has several variables to control its strength, it’s impact on the game (PvE, PvP, and WvV). One is obviously the effect. Then there’s the duration. Finally there’s the cooldown. The latter two combine to form a percent uptime, which you can multiply by the magnitude of the effect to get its time-weighted effect.

The current mechanic with WHaO completely screws that up. I’m trying to avoid a mathematical explanation, but I can’t think of a way around it. In the math of infinite series, there are divergent series and convergent series. A convergent series approaches a fixed value. 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + … which each subsequent number being half the previous converges on 2. A convergent series is well-behaved, and you can easily modify it. 2 * (1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + … ) = 4.

A divergent series blows up to infinity. 1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 + … approaches infinity (very slowly, but it does). And obviously infinite anything can be very unbalancing.

The current mechanic of WHaO takes well-behaved skills which act like a convergent series, and under certain reasonably easy-to-attain circumstances makes them blow up like a divergent series. The only reason we’re not seeing more unbalancing effects from WHaO is because it eventually runs into the boon stacking and duration limits.

Not only is that horribly unbalancing. but it makes it extraordinarily difficult if not impossible to balance other skills. Anet could balance (say) Guard – they’re happy with its effect, duration, and uptime. Something else like Resounding Timbre act as a mere multiplier – by reducing cooldown 20%, you increase the uptime of Guard’s effect (percent of time the pet has protection up) by 25%.

Now you throw in WHaO, and it can cause the effect to blow up to permanent uptime. In some cases there’s no way to fix it (the effect will always blow up to permanent uptime). In others, you can fix it, but only by nerfing Guard so badly that the skill without WHaO is effectively useless.

This isn’t how you design good game mechanics. You want all the skill effects to be controlled and predictable. Even permanent uptime in itself is acceptable if the work needed to maintain it occupies enough of the player’s time that it reduces their damage output. But WHaO’s mechanic is such that beyond a certain duration, the increase in duration with each application grows exponentially, making it horribly broken.

Capping the duration of each boon WHaO copies would stop the divergent/exponential duration growth and bring it back under control, making it compatible with a well-balanced game again.

Compare that effect to a PS Warrior that can spread might to his entire party and very easily maintain 25 stacks of might.

WHaO is not OP. It effects the ranger only and does not spread boons to allies. finally we have a method of self sustaining might in PVE and actually making use of celestial type builds in PVP. For once we have options! With the change I have found myself fluctuating between quickdraw and MDG!

no more knee-jerk reactions please!

I’ve played around with this a lot since patch, and I seriously don’t think it’s that strong or OP at all. Realistically without completely gutting myself, and still with spamming my heal skill, I can maintain regeneration, swiftness, and fury in perpetuity. Permanently maintaining the others requires too many sacrificed cooldowns or too much prep time to actually be useful in a real PvP match or WvW zerg. For WvW roaming it’s neutered by anything with boon stripping which is, well, a lot (this is also true for PvP).

Seriously, I think this is actually pretty well balanced, and as far as Ranger in PvE goes this is what was needed to bring it up to snuff. People are now discussing Ranger as being equal to a Warrior in terms of value to a group. Think about that for a minute.

Works as intended and not at all OP.

thank goodness for Irenio finally making some changes to the core ranger that will, hopefully, dramatically affect gameplay and viability in the future.

Rising Dusk.2408:

\ People are now discussing Ranger as being equal to a Warrior in terms of value to a group. Think about that for a minute.

Mind Blown****

Prophet.1584:

Solandri.9640:

Khadez.4958:

This could be a way to do it but it would reduce this skill’s potential in PvE quite a bit.

The issue isn’t the skill’s potential in PvP or PvE. The problem is much more fundamental.

When Anet makes a skill, it has several variables to control its strength, it’s impact on the game (PvE, PvP, and WvV). One is obviously the effect. Then there’s the duration. Finally there’s the cooldown. The latter two combine to form a percent uptime, which you can multiply by the magnitude of the effect to get its time-weighted effect.

The current mechanic with WHaO completely screws that up. I’m trying to avoid a mathematical explanation, but I can’t think of a way around it. In the math of infinite series, there are divergent series and convergent series. A convergent series approaches a fixed value. 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + … which each subsequent number being half the previous converges on 2. A convergent series is well-behaved, and you can easily modify it. 2 * (1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + … ) = 4.

A divergent series blows up to infinity. 1 + 1/2 + 1/3 + 1/4 + … approaches infinity (very slowly, but it does). And obviously infinite anything can be very unbalancing.

The current mechanic of WHaO takes well-behaved skills which act like a convergent series, and under certain reasonably easy-to-attain circumstances makes them blow up like a divergent series. The only reason we’re not seeing more unbalancing effects from WHaO is because it eventually runs into the boon stacking and duration limits.

Not only is that horribly unbalancing. but it makes it extraordinarily difficult if not impossible to balance other skills. Anet could balance (say) Guard – they’re happy with its effect, duration, and uptime. Something else like Resounding Timbre act as a mere multiplier – by reducing cooldown 20%, you increase the uptime of Guard’s effect (percent of time the pet has protection up) by 25%.

Now you throw in WHaO, and it can cause the effect to blow up to permanent uptime. In some cases there’s no way to fix it (the effect will always blow up to permanent uptime). In others, you can fix it, but only by nerfing Guard so badly that the skill without WHaO is effectively useless.

This isn’t how you design good game mechanics. You want all the skill effects to be controlled and predictable. Even permanent uptime in itself is acceptable if the work needed to maintain it occupies enough of the player’s time that it reduces their damage output. But WHaO’s mechanic is such that beyond a certain duration, the increase in duration with each application grows exponentially, making it horribly broken.

Capping the duration of each boon WHaO copies would stop the divergent/exponential duration growth and bring it back under control, making it compatible with a well-balanced game again.

Compare that effect to a PS Warrior that can spread might to his entire party and very easily maintain 25 stacks of might.

WHaO is not OP. It effects the ranger only and does not spread boons to allies. finally we have a method of self sustaining might in PVE and actually making use of celestial type builds in PVP. For once we have options! With the change I have found myself fluctuating between quickdraw and MDG!

no more knee-jerk reactions please!

Lol, he actually gave a logical post on why from a game design perspective, WHaO isn’t very well thought out. Now stacking 2.5mins of swiftness, no big deal. 2.5 mins of fury too, well thieves can do it so again, it’s acceptable. Tons of might stack… well rev’s can do all 3 so we’re on par. 2.5mins regen, again rev’s can do that too so we should be ok. The list keeps going, protection, vigor? Yup can do those too. With the help of a Guardian, got quickness covered as well.

I know baseline ranger needs some love but the mechanics of WHaO (as Solandri has stated) makes it flawed. They either need to limit the boons which this works on (i.e. exclude quickness) or more likely synchronise it with fortifying bonds. Still, it took them 3 years to change Ice Bow, Ranger’s might have a lot of fun with this for a while.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I’ve played around with this a lot since patch, and I seriously don’t think it’s that strong or OP at all. Realistically without completely gutting myself, and still with spamming my heal skill, I can maintain regeneration, swiftness, and fury in perpetuity. Permanently maintaining the others requires too many sacrificed cooldowns or too much prep time to actually be useful in a real PvP match or WvW zerg. For WvW roaming it’s neutered by anything with boon stripping which is, well, a lot (this is also true for PvP).

Seriously, I think this is actually pretty well balanced, and as far as Ranger in PvE goes this is what was needed to bring it up to snuff. People are now discussing Ranger as being equal to a Warrior in terms of value to a group. Think about that for a minute.

I’ve come to the same conclusion. Realistically, the only extra quickness you’ll get from this in PvP is from using it right after quickening zephyr. That’s about 6 seconds of extra quickness, 8 if you’re using nature magic. That’s pretty strong of course, but the payoff of having to blow your healing skill for it to work is fair I think.

Anything more than this (quickness on pet swap, water runes, sigil of rage, etc.) is just stacking quickness for the sake of stacking quickness and is just not worth it. There are better alternatives for these things.

the power is fine
I don’t see rangers doing any better in pvp than before.

If anyone needs toning down its the elementalist

Yes We heal as one is realy strong atm but think how will thing be after one month when moust of classes can stack 25 might by them self have hig fury up time/crit chanse easily + other stuff like that.

Zorpi.5904:

Yes We heal as one is realy strong atm but think how will thing be after one month when moust of classes can stack 25 might by them self have hig fury up time/crit chanse easily + other stuff like that.

it will be finally a time where boon stripping/stealing/corrupion will be needed…and this will add this much needed layer of gameplay. I wouldn’t mind that!

Gaaroth.2567:

Zorpi.5904:

Yes We heal as one is realy strong atm but think how will thing be after one month when moust of classes can stack 25 might by them self have hig fury up time/crit chanse easily + other stuff like that.

it will be finally a time where boon stripping/stealing/corrupion will be needed…and this will add this much needed layer of gameplay. I wouldn’t mind that!

That would be great if every class could actually strip boons.

i would say that it is op but we are talking about rangers here. they need something op to overcome their weak state. Maybe middleground would be that the heal skill would behave like it could only share 5-10 seconds of a certain boon instead of infinite

Dojo.1867:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Sigmoid.7082:

I needs to be changed to have the same table as Fortifying Bond

Thats the most likely thing i see happening.

As much as I want Ranger to be a bit OP for a while at least, I think this is a good idea. I, however, think that the durations should be removed from FB. So the pet gets the full durations from you from “WHaO!” and FB and you gain the shorter duration boons (like FB is now) from the pet with “WHaO!”. That would be better balance imo.

What exactly do you think is OP about that build? Did you even play it? It really isn’t.

I don’t actually think it is that OP actually, it is very cheesy though. In order for it to work, you need to blow all your cooldowns, making you very weak. Although, the ability to stack so many powerful boons in such a short period of time makes it insanely powerful for 1v1s, except vs Necro which is a hard-counter to it. A decent chill duration and some conditions with a few well timed dodges and the Ranger will be down.
No, I have not played it. I will test it out when I get back from Antarctica in 6 weeks, but I don’t think it will be around that long. There will be too much QQ.

If you start from above 90% health with Bark Skin, you’ll have 66% damage reduction for ages, after which you can pop “PM!” to take no damage, then SoS for 12s of no damage, at least 33% damage reduction, Quickness and most boons, Might stacked to 25. That’s massively powerful, whether or not you have to blow your CDs to do it.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Dojo.1867:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Sigmoid.7082:

I needs to be changed to have the same table as Fortifying Bond

Thats the most likely thing i see happening.

As much as I want Ranger to be a bit OP for a while at least, I think this is a good idea. I, however, think that the durations should be removed from FB. So the pet gets the full durations from you from “WHaO!” and FB and you gain the shorter duration boons (like FB is now) from the pet with “WHaO!”. That would be better balance imo.

What exactly do you think is OP about that build? Did you even play it? It really isn’t.

I don’t actually think it is that OP actually, it is very cheesy though. In order for it to work, you need to blow all your cooldowns, making you very weak. Although, the ability to stack so many powerful boons in such a short period of time makes it insanely powerful for 1v1s, except vs Necro which is a hard-counter to it. A decent chill duration and some conditions with a few well timed dodges and the Ranger will be down.
No, I have not played it. I will test it out when I get back from Antarctica in 6 weeks, but I don’t think it will be around that long. There will be too much QQ.

If you start from above 90% health with Bark Skin, you’ll have 66% damage reduction for ages, after which you can pop “PM!” to take no damage, then SoS for 12s of no damage, at least 33% damage reduction, Quickness and most boons, Might stacked to 25. That’s massively powerful, whether or not you have to blow your CDs to do it.

Pretty sure it doesn’t affect SoS. The immunity to direct damage isn’t a boon.

Anyone arguing HaO is OP because you can theorically have about 50% quickness uptime is wrong. (at least until superspeed becomes a boon)
Because whatever amount of quickness you have, if you need to pass on the taunt it’s not worth it.
And for PVE Zephyr Speed works in a way that leaves very little synergy for boon stacking on pet because of rotational pet swap meaning you won’t get the 25 might.

Yea people (salty eles duh) should think just a little bit before crying.

Using the shout “Guard” and then using “We Heal As One” should be giving the ranger Stealth and Protection (and if traited regeneration and swiftness), because last I checked stealth was considered a boon yet I’m not receiving the 10 seconds of stealth when using that combo. I’m not sure if its a bug or not just thought I should bring it up to someones attention.

Stealth isn’t a boon
/thread

Puck.9612:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Dojo.1867:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Sigmoid.7082:

I needs to be changed to have the same table as Fortifying Bond

Thats the most likely thing i see happening.

As much as I want Ranger to be a bit OP for a while at least, I think this is a good idea. I, however, think that the durations should be removed from FB. So the pet gets the full durations from you from “WHaO!” and FB and you gain the shorter duration boons (like FB is now) from the pet with “WHaO!”. That would be better balance imo.

What exactly do you think is OP about that build? Did you even play it? It really isn’t.

I don’t actually think it is that OP actually, it is very cheesy though. In order for it to work, you need to blow all your cooldowns, making you very weak. Although, the ability to stack so many powerful boons in such a short period of time makes it insanely powerful for 1v1s, except vs Necro which is a hard-counter to it. A decent chill duration and some conditions with a few well timed dodges and the Ranger will be down.
No, I have not played it. I will test it out when I get back from Antarctica in 6 weeks, but I don’t think it will be around that long. There will be too much QQ.

If you start from above 90% health with Bark Skin, you’ll have 66% damage reduction for ages, after which you can pop “PM!” to take no damage, then SoS for 12s of no damage, at least 33% damage reduction, Quickness and most boons, Might stacked to 25. That’s massively powerful, whether or not you have to blow your CDs to do it.

Pretty sure it doesn’t affect SoS. The immunity to direct damage isn’t a boon.

You are right, SoS and PM are not boons, but that doesn’t prevent you having 12s combined invulnerability while also under the effects of Fury, 25 might, Protection, Regeneration, Swiftness and Quickness, self stacked, quickly. I just think that is a little too much, no matter what class it is on or how fragile it is. And it is fragile.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Puck.9612:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Dojo.1867:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Sigmoid.7082:

I needs to be changed to have the same table as Fortifying Bond

Thats the most likely thing i see happening.

As much as I want Ranger to be a bit OP for a while at least, I think this is a good idea. I, however, think that the durations should be removed from FB. So the pet gets the full durations from you from “WHaO!” and FB and you gain the shorter duration boons (like FB is now) from the pet with “WHaO!”. That would be better balance imo.

What exactly do you think is OP about that build? Did you even play it? It really isn’t.

I don’t actually think it is that OP actually, it is very cheesy though. In order for it to work, you need to blow all your cooldowns, making you very weak. Although, the ability to stack so many powerful boons in such a short period of time makes it insanely powerful for 1v1s, except vs Necro which is a hard-counter to it. A decent chill duration and some conditions with a few well timed dodges and the Ranger will be down.
No, I have not played it. I will test it out when I get back from Antarctica in 6 weeks, but I don’t think it will be around that long. There will be too much QQ.

If you start from above 90% health with Bark Skin, you’ll have 66% damage reduction for ages, after which you can pop “PM!” to take no damage, then SoS for 12s of no damage, at least 33% damage reduction, Quickness and most boons, Might stacked to 25. That’s massively powerful, whether or not you have to blow your CDs to do it.

Pretty sure it doesn’t affect SoS. The immunity to direct damage isn’t a boon.

You are right, SoS and PM are not boons, but that doesn’t prevent you having 12s combined invulnerability while also under the effects of Fury, 25 might, Protection, Regeneration, Swiftness and Quickness, self stacked. I just think that is a little too much, no matter what class it is on or how fragile it is. And it is fragile.

If you are talking about “Protect Me”, it’s kind of counter productive for this build. The goal is to not only buff yourself, but to buff your pet and keep it alive. If your pet dies you are kind of screwed.

tbh I still misss my 1200 range sb….

so now with 1500 baseline range on lb we can finally get back our 1200 range sb?
[the reason to nerf sb back then was how bad lb looked like for some when comapred baseline ranges and damages/utilities with sb – AN didn’t want to buff lb back at that time so they nerfed sb to make lb more appealing…. ]

I absolutely agree with you Infantrydiv.

I mean the buffs were great and I’m having fun testing different builds, hey perma 25 might fury swiftness and regeneration is something that only a d/d could had and now we can have it too, but the main problem as you exposed is the mechanic of the weapons, LB atm is mandatory because is the “best in the worst” weapon we actually have.

The buff to the warhorn was pretty good I’m glad with it but Hunter’s Call is so kitten USELESS, it doesn’t do decent dmg it has range bugs and when it lands people just evade one time or block lmao.
-make the skill instant, cd decrease and unblockable that will be a good buff.

GS is a really good weapon but its AA is horrible, it does little damage and it’s slow.
-increase the damage a bit, first chain gives 2 stack of vulnerability 5s, 2nd chain gives weakness for 3s, 3rd chain evade and might.

Sword is decent has 2 evades but its AA is beyond horrible, if GS was bad this is worse.

-I’d like to see something similar to warrior sword AA, like bleed in chains and FAST.

SB is awful, probably the worst weapon we have.

-you can do so many things to improve this weapon but you can start for giving it 1200 range, thanks.

Axe is bad imo, I’ve never liked it anyway but you can always improve.

-AA needs to be faster and increase the might for hit only for PVP.

These are just thoughts which came out of my mind right now so it’s not something formal or anything.

We heal as one isn’t op for one reason: The pet can be killed.
The pet was always meant to be both offensive and defensive. Now there is an incentive to target the pet.

To make the most of WHAO you give up a lot of stats and in the end you are actually weaker if you try to make it permanent (especial if your in a group situation . Seems balanced to me.

RevanCorana.8942:

Anyone arguing HaO is OP because you can theorically have about 50% quickness uptime is wrong. (at least until superspeed becomes a boon)
Because whatever amount of quickness you have, if you need to pass on the taunt it’s not worth it.
And for PVE Zephyr Speed works in a way that leaves very little synergy for boon stacking on pet because of rotational pet swap meaning you won’t get the 25 might.

Yea people (salty eles duh) should think just a little bit before crying.

That’s it, while it looks good on paper most applications are probably undoable in real combat situations except eventually in PvE (rangers needed a bit of help for dungeons). I would at least wait for constructive feedback with the Druid spec before claiming it’s OP.

Actually stealth was never considered a boon.

imagangsta.1349:

Using the shout “Guard” and then using “We Heal As One” should be giving the ranger Stealth and Protection (and if traited regeneration and swiftness), because last I checked stealth was considered a boon yet I’m not receiving the 10 seconds of stealth when using that combo. I’m not sure if its a bug or not just thought I should bring it up to someones attention.

Come on…

But it should give protection too, and its not the case

Roy: Nerf incoming.

https://twitter.com/roycronacher/status/649267788121411585