Guild Wars 2

Based on the upcoming changes to the trait system, I’d like to make an attempt to improve the provided ideas by Arenanet even further.
Please be constructive in your feedback. When you agree or disagree with a made proposal, say why you do and elaborate on your ideas. Cheering and ranting alone won’t help anyone.

Definition of Beastmastery:
Players who choose this specialization want their pet to be an active part in combat, rather than just a distraction or passive utility box. Ranger and pet are a union and those specializing in Beastmastery seek to strengthen this bond even further.

Minor:

Pet’s Prowess
Edit: Pets deal more damage on critical hits and their base attributes are increased.
Attribute Increase: 300
Ferocity Increase: 450

Speed Training
Reduces recharge on pet skills and pet swapping.
Pets move faster (+30%).

Fortifying Bond
Any boon you get is shared with your pet. (Yes, even stability!)

Why FB in this line? When you think about it, those who want to grab FB do this in order to boost the pet, while not everybody traiting Nature Magic necessarily wants to be a Beastmaster. Yes, Nature Magic is the boon line, but FB first and foremost strengthens the pet and that’s why, to me, it belongs in the Beastmastery line.

Major:

— Adept —

Companion’s Might
Your critical hits grant might to your pet.
1x Might on pet: 6s

Natural Resistance (change in progress …)
Edit: You and your pet gain resistance when you suffer from a number of conditions. Triggers for each individual respectively. (ICD 20s)
Conditions to trigger: 3
Resistance: 3s (?)

Resounding Timbre
Shouts apply regeneration and swiftness to allies. Reduces recharge on shouts.
Swiftness: 10s
Regeneration: 10s
Recharge: 20%

— Master —

Two-Handed Training
Greatsword and spear damage is increased. Greatsword and spear attacks have a chance to grant fury on hit and skills recharge faster. (ICD 10s)
Damage Increase: 5%
Chance on hit: 50%
Fury: 3s
Recharge Reduced: 20%

Wilting Strike
Activated attack abilities for pets [F2] cause weakness. This effect will only occur once on each target affected by abilities.
Weakness: 5s

Rending Attacks (change in progress …)
Edit: Your pet inflicts torment when it hits with its basic attack.
1x Torment: 5-6s (?)
(note: the pet can maintain about 3 stacks on the target. too strong?)

— Grandmaster —

Beastly Warden (maybe Beastly Decoy?)
Your pet taunts nearby foes when executing a command [F2] ability. (ICD 15s).
When you are downed, your pet immediately taunts foes in an area. (ICD 50s)
Number of targets: 5
Duration: 2s (?)
Radius: 600 (?)

Natural Healing
While in combat, you and your pet have passive health regeneration and increased healing power.
Your pet heals allies in an area when executing a command [F2] ability (ICD 20s).
Health Regeneration: +125 (affected by healing power)
Healing Power: +350
F2 Healing: 1518 (affected by healing power)

Zephyr’s Speed
You and your pet gain quickness and might when you swap pets.
Quickness: 3s
3x Might: 15s

I’m fully aware this isn’t ideal yet. Help me refine it and let’s have a qualified discussion
What changes would you make?

Some good ideas there.

I think Instinctual Bond should be merged with Circle of Life and then swapped with Fortifying Bond. Leaving the other two minors the same.
Companion’s Might is good, but a longer duration would be nice, say 8s.
Blood Scent looks good, I’ve been crying out for an AoE reveal for ages, its a great idea for wvw. Can replace Rending attacks altogether now. 900 Range is maybe a bit too big imo.
Wilting Strike is a good idea, but 4s is a touch low. Make it 6s.
Natural healing would be great if you combine it with Invigorating Bond. But I think its little too powerful so maybe the Ranger portion of the regen would have to be dropped, it is only 45hp/s anyway.
Honed Axes would be better if it was +150 Ferocity per axe wielded and your OH axe skills cause Torment.

Thx for your feedback.
Not sure whether I understood your ideas in regards to Fortifying Bond. Would you like to keep it in Nature Magic or move it to Beastmastery? Tbh, this is not an easy decision, but since this trait is a must have for pet focused builds, you’re essentially forced to trait both Beastmastery and Nature Magic, while if FB was in Beastmastery, you’d be more flexible on your other specialization choice. That’s the main reason why I put it there. One could also argue FB should be baseline, but I’m not sure how Anet thinks about that.

Also, to explain why I merged Pet’s Prowess into Rending Attacks is because not every pet family can take advantage of Pet’s Prowess, take pigs for example, which is why I don’t think it should be a minor trait. It however works fine with Rending Attacks.

On Natural Healing. I don’t think that 125hp/s + some more from healing power is op on the player, but if it turns out that it truely is, the player value could be a little bit lower. However, the way it is atm (125hp every 3 sec) is way too weak, which is why next to nobody runs it. And yeah, I merged Invigorating Bond into Natural Healing because they’re both addressing the same objective.

Btw, I left Companion’s Might and Wilting Strike unchanged for now. That’s what Anet came up with.

I kicked Honed Axes entirely, because this trait had zero synergy with the Beastmaster specialization. Imo, it’s better placed in Skirmishing or Wilderness Survival.

Rending attack should add like 450 precision on pet or it’ll never crit unless you’re using a feline… Also adding 450 condition would be nice addition for more bleeding damage.

Well, you can combine Rending Attacks with Companion’s Might, if you want to push for more condition dmg or pick Expertise Training from Wilderness Survival. There are ways to increase your pet’s condi dmg output. Putting it all into one trait may be too strong.

Also, I prefer Ferocity over Precision for Rending Attacks, because feline and birds can have up to 90% crit chance already, whereas other pets (except pigs) can get up to 60%,. If I’m not mistaken, the +300 stat increase from my Instinctual Bond version should set cat and bird crit chance to 70% and 40% for other pets. Add Fury uptime into the equation and you don’t really need more added precision for the pet.

Girion.5483:

…Not sure whether I understood your ideas in regards to Fortifying Bond. Would you like to keep it in Nature Magic or move it to Beastmastery?…

I meant that FB should be moved to BM minor and that Instinctual Bond should be merged with Circle of Life and moved to NM minor. I think that if you want to specialise into the pet, you should get boon sharing for sure, it makes such a big difference.

Let’s be honest, I don’t think they are going to make huge changes to what they already have, in fact swapping a couple around is probly the best we can hope for. Except for a couple of traits that are still left-overs and have not been touched as yet, mostly I think its as is.

ITA it should be improved and be made far more pet-focussed.

I like the adept traits and the your version of Beastly Warden.

I don’t like anything else though. I really want ANet to implement the Beastly warden version.

Rending Attacks
Pets deal more damage on critical hits and inflict bleeding when they critically hit with their basic attack.
Ferocity +450
1x Bleeding 6s

No. It should be removed because Sharpening Stone does this.

Companion’s Might
Your critical hits grant might to your pet.
1x Might: 5s

It should’ve been “you and your pets.”

Blood Scent
Your pet reveals stealthed targets in an area when executing a command [F2] ability. (ICD 15s)
Radius: 900

It is too niche to be its own trait. No.

Natural Healing
While in combat, you and your pet have passive health regeneration and increased healing power.
Your pet heals allies in an area when executing a command [F2] ability (ICD 20s).
Health Regeneration: +125 (affected by healing power)
Healing Power: +350
F2 Healing: 1518 (affected by healing power)

No to being it on a gm trait. I want to use this with Beastly warden.

rending attacks is a disaster and will never be picked. I agree with you on that. and I really like your Blood Scent idea.

effectiveness of Resounding Timbre will entirely depend on what they do to buff all the useless shouts.

otherwise I think they did a fantastic job on the BM tree. GS looks fun, I like the pet speed minor, and all the GM’s are amazing.

Solid ideas.

I think having both Reveal and Taunt on your pets F2 is redundant though. If you land the taunt, the stealthed foe is going to reveal their self as they are forced to attack your pet.

Thank you for your input, everyone.
I’ll agree that Rending Attacks isn’t exactly overwhelming and looks more like the evil twin of Sharpened Edges from Skirmishing. Valid point.

Regarding Blood Scent. Yeah, that’s really just something that crossed my mind when I tried to fill the gap. I agree that it’s a niche skill and has no use in PvE. Certainly interesting for WvW, but not sure how useful it would be for sPvP. The slow activation time for the majority of our pet commands is probably what defeats it in the end. Then again, I thought, hey if anything could track down stealthed foes, it would be the pet.

I was also thinking about tweaking Companion’s Might, but was a bit unsure as to whether it would be become easily overpowered then.

How about: “You and your pet grant each other might on a critical hit”?

This may already be too strong though. What do you think? Take into consideration that every might stack the pet puts on the player would be mirrored back to the pet through Fortifying Bond. Feels like it would somewhat replace RaO, which it shouldn’t do, imo.

All in all, I’d be pretty happy with these grandmasters though, since you have one for offensive playstyle (zephyrs), one for a more defensive build (Natural healing) and one for control setups (beastly). Whatever your playstyle, you can pick an appropriate grandmaster.

Girion.5483:

Thank you for your input, everyone.
I’ll agree that Rending Attacks isn’t exactly overwhelming and looks more like the evil twin of Sharpened Edges from Skirmishing. Valid point.

Regarding Blood Scent. Yeah, that’s really just something that crossed my mind when I tried to fill the gap. I agree that it’s a niche skill and has no use in PvE. Certainly interesting for WvW, but not sure how useful it would be for sPvP. The slow activation time for the majority of our pet commands is probably what defeats it in the end. Then again, I thought, hey if anything could track down stealthed foes, it would be the pet.

I was also thinking about tweaking Companion’s Might, but was a bit unsure as to whether it would be become easily overpowered then.

How about: “You and your pet grant each other might on a critical hit”?

This may already be too strong though. What do you think? Take into consideration that every might stack the pet puts on the player would be mirrored back to the pet through Fortifying Bond. Feels like it would somewhat replace RaO, which it shouldn’t do, imo.

Add ICD of 1 second and it’s not too strong. Superior sigil of might does that already.
Guardian has a trait that gives AOE might from critical hits.

I don’t think Rending Strikes is a “weaker Sharpened Edges”.

• Sharpened Edges is not 100% chance on crit … Rending Strikes is.
• Rending Strikes is pet only (probably why some say it’s the weaker version).
• Rending Strikes can be taken with Sharpened Edges … allowing your high precision pets (birds/felines) to apply 2 bleeds per crit … and those pets have quick attack rates … including attacks that hit multiple times.

This last point is the one I think people should be focusing on with these two.

All i want is my pet leash range back in WvW/PvE.

Sebrent.3625:

I don’t think Rending Strikes is a “weaker Sharpened Edges”.

• Sharpened Edges is not 100% chance on crit … Rending Strikes is.
• Rending Strikes is pet only (probably why some say it’s the weaker version).
• Rending Strikes can be taken with Sharpened Edges … allowing your high precision pets (birds/felines) to apply 2 bleeds per crit … and those pets have quick attack rates … including attacks that hit multiple times.

This last point is the one I think people should be focusing on with these two.

I don’t really care. Rending Strikes is a wasted trait.

I don’t like “Your pet does this” trait. I want to see more synergy like sharpening stone is.

If there is a elite specialization called the Beastmaster, then the “Your pet does this…” traits can exist because I won’t take use that specialization.

Alright, I edited the description of Companion’s Might and Rending Attacks.

Rending Attacks is now …
You and your pet have increased Ferocity. Your pet inflicts torment on a critical hit.
Pet Ferocity: +450
Player Ferocity: +300
1x Torment: 6s

Thought? better, worse or still the same?
Or do we need something else entirely here? Is there anything you’d like to see on the Beastmastery tree that isn’t even mentioned yet?

@runeblade:
That’s fine and your opinion. We can look at the numbers some other time when everyone isn’t as much in flux.

No one is forcing you to take Rending strikes as an Adapt just like no one would be forcing you to take it as a Grandmaster in your example.

Additionally, it is in the Beastmastery specialization. I don’t think anyone should be surprised to see “Your pet does this” traits in the Beastmastery specialization.

@Girion:
That looks OP. Compare the ferocity gained from that to what other classes are gaining and then do a double-take because you just gave that as an Adapt level trait and it is giving Torment on top of that.

Heck Warrior’s grandmaster only gives 150 Ferocity per axe wielded (so a max of 300 that locks you into AxeAxe).

Can anyone tell me how the 450/300 ferocity and 6s of Torment were figured as far as their actual quantities to make it “fair” and “balanced” ?

If they moved Fortifying Bond to Beastmastery, they could make Companion’s Might add 3s of might to the Ranger per crit and that would buff both, with the Ranger’s might being much shorter duration to only last during actual combat.

Sebrent, you’re right. Just realized myself, that this would be way over the top. Still, I’d like to have traits that affect both the ranger and the pet. Make it +150 Ferocity for the player then?

@ Heimskarl: added your proposed change as well

Edit:
btw, the condition effect on crit from the pet triggers only on the basic attack skill, not on skill 2 and 3. That’s also how Rending Attack currently works.

Edit2: In the above setup, Rending Attacks is a Master trait. Just wanted to point that out again, since there seems to be some confusion as to where I’d put it. Atm, (in Anets version) it is in the Adept tier tough. That’s right.

@Girion:
If I was going to tackle that traits, I’d possibly look into combining Rending with Expertise Training so that any pet could benefit from Expertise Training … but that too could also be a bit OP which would result in the 3 effects possibly all getting pared down a bit more than others would like.

I still currently think that Rending is fine where it is at as long as they fix the issue where the pet’s low condition damage causes it to screw up your condition damage. I think that is the core issue.

That is a side effect of having the pets have completely separate stats from the ranger. It also allowed for the amount of ‘filler’ traits in current system designed solely to deal with the issue of not giving the pets secondary stats.

Not arguing for or against that design choice, but it does bring situations that are not (really) occurring in other aspects of the game. The closest comparsion would be mesmer interaction, but that isn’t really accurate as they are designed with very different thought processes and intentions.

I like Fortifying Bond in the BM line. In fact I think I suggested the same thing quite a while ago. However I’m not a fan of the ferocity for the pet coming from Rending Attacks. I prefer it to be in the master minor trait with Agility Training. Given both of these traits individually are only adept tier I don’t think bumping them up to master when combined makes them overpowered.

While I like your Beastly Decoy I think we should keep the name Beastly Warden. Sounds more intimidating and less like we’re pretending to be mesmers.

Sebrent.3625:

I still currently think that Rending is fine where it is at as long as they fix the issue where the pet’s low condition damage causes it to screw up your condition damage. I think that is the core issue.

That is never going to get fixed if people want to keep the straight stat split between Ranger and pet. It only plays to counter builds, not synergy. That is, I can have a power pet to counter my condi build, but if I have a condi pet with my condi build…lol.

So…how about a trait that works like fortifying bond, except for stats? If I take it, my pet uses my scaling.

Gotejjeken.1267:

That is never going to get fixed if people want to keep the straight stat split between Ranger and pet. It only plays to counter builds, not synergy. That is, I can have a power pet to counter my condi build, but if I have a condi pet with my condi build…lol.

So…how about a trait that works like fortifying bond, except for stats? If I take it, my pet uses my scaling.

I prefer the pet’s stats being separate. It lets you build tanky while getting good damage from your pet. You should pick a pet that fills the gaps in your own style. It works far better than the pet just being a weaker version of yourself.

What they need to do is give certain pets condition damage and healing power in their stat pool. If devourers, spiders, and certain cats and birds had about 650 condition damage base you could trait it to get 1,000 condition damage on your pet. Then the difference wouldn’t be as severe and the pet would be an extra source of conditions.

Likewise if the sylvan hound and moas had around 650 healing power you could trait to 1,000 and have your pet function as a nice source of passive heals and a regen bot for builds with lower sustain.

@Gotejjeken:
You have absolutely no way to be sure that “that is never going to get fixed”.

Since they are currently looking at reworking how conditions work in-game, it could very well get fixed so that you don’t have to worry about your pet overwriting your stronger bleeds with their much weaker bleeds.

We’ll have to wait and see.

As I’ve stated before … the separate pet stats provides far more flexibility and choice than the pet scaling off your stats. The various pet families have different stats. They could also simply incorporate some condition damage as part of those stats instead of having them all have a base of 0 condition damage.

Ehecatl.9172:

I prefer the pet’s stats being separate. It lets you build tanky while getting good damage from your pet. You should pick a pet that fills the gaps in your own style. It works far better than the pet just being a weaker version of yourself.

What they need to do is give certain pets condition damage and healing power in their stat pool. If devourers, spiders, and certain cats and birds had about 650 condition damage base you could trait it to get 1,000 condition damage on your pet. Then the difference wouldn’t be as severe and the pet would be an extra source of conditions.

Likewise if the sylvan hound and moas had around 650 healing power you could trait to 1,000 and have your pet function as a nice source of passive heals and a regen bot for builds with lower sustain.

It is playing to that ‘strength’ of the ranger that got the pets an across the board nerf in damage (which they didn’t really need in PvE/WvW, spvp was arguable) and with the addition defense they are looking at giving to both ranger and the pet they might very well do it again.

Alright, putting Rending Attacks in a good spot isn’t as easy as I thought at first.
I envision it as giving Ferocity to the pet and the player. Values may be debatable and are subject to balance, but since Ranger and pet act as a union, I believe traits should affect both, whenever possible. I also replaced the bleeding on crit from the pet auto-attaks with torment, so it doesn’t mess with the player bleeds, but instead creates a separate instance of condition dmg.

Also, the reason why I merged Pet’s Prowess (+450 Ferocity for the pet) into Rending Attachs is, because Pet’s Prowess should not be a minor trait. Minor traits in the Beastmastery line should be beneficial to every pet family, yet not every pet family can take adavnatge of increased ferocity, due to lower crit chance. Rending Attacks should be a trait you want to pick for pets with moderate or high precision.

Btw, I too agree that player and pet stats should be separated, since this increases the variety of possible combinations. I wouldn’t mind to have secondary stats added to pet families though.

Bran.7425:

It is playing to that ‘strength’ of the ranger that got the pets an across the board nerf in damage (which they didn’t really need in PvE/WvW, spvp was arguable) and with the addition defense they are looking at giving to both ranger and the pet they might very well do it again.

Oh, at this rate I’m almost positive it’ll get nerfed into the ground. Anet caved hard to the tears of the community about turrets and obliterated that build to the point it’s not usable in any game mode. According to quite a few responses to the different threads on the matter the community is targeting us next.

We shouldn’t dwell too much on possible future nerfs. I’d rather try to be optimistic.

Why not just make rending attacks apply to every pet by making it all attacks and not just crits? Balance by ICD and condition duration.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Why not just make rending attacks apply to every pet by making it all attacks and not just crits? Balance by ICD and condition duration.

Yeah, might be an idea. Just tested the present version of Rending Attacks in Heart of the Mists with a 90% crit chance pet. It maintained 3 stacks of bleeding with its auto-attacks, which isn’t game breaking. lol However, the pet can quickly reapply the stacks, so it certainly helps to provide some minor pressure.

So …
Your pet applies 1x torment (or bleeding?) when it hits with its basic attack. ?

Would you keep the ferocity effect then or should it be replaced with something else entirely?

I would leave the ferocity on the minors, all pets get a bonus from it, pigs too if buffed up. Having beastmastery in HoT will give the pig another 300 precision, fury is another 400, spotter is another 150, so that’s an extra 40% crit chance.

Hm, tbh I don’t know where I’d put it on the minors, because I’d really like to keep Fortifying Bond and Speed Training in their current spots. Could only try to stuff it into th above Instinctual Bond version.

Beastmastery minor #1
The base attributes of your pet are increased. Your pet also gains increased ferocity.
Attribute Increase: 300
Ferocity Increase: 450

Like that?
You as the player would miss out on the +5% dmg increase then. This kinda goes against my “ranger and pet are a union” philosophy, however. hm.

Made the following adjustments …

Minor :

Pet’s Prowess
Pets deal more damage on critical hits and their base attributes are increased.
Attribute Increase: 300
Ferocity Increase: 450

Major:

—Adept—

Natural Resistance (change in progress …)
You and your pet gain resistance when you suffer from a number of conditions. Triggers for each individual respectively. (ICD 20s)
Conditions to trigger: 3
Resistance: 3s (?)

— Master —

Rending Attacks (change in progress …)
Edit: Your pet inflicts torment when it hits with its basic attack.
1x Torment: 5-6s (?)
(note: the pet can maintain about 3 stacks on the target. too strong?)

Would you agree? What else can you think of to fill the 3rd major Adept spot. Natural Resistance is really just another suggestion. Tried to play with the resistance boon here, but may be better incorporated into Empathic Bond from the Wilderness Survival specialization. Not sure here.

Girion.5483:

Made the following adjustments …

Minor :

Pet’s Prowess
Pets deal more damage on critical hits and their base attributes are increased.
Attribute Increase: 300
Ferocity Increase: 450

Major:

—Adept—

Natural Resistance (change in progress …)
You and your pet gain resistance when you suffer from a number of conditions. Triggers for each individual respectively. (ICD 20s)
Conditions to trigger: 3
Resistance: 4s (?)

— Master —

Rending Attacks (change in progress …)
Edit: Your pet inflicts torment when it hits with its basic attack.
1x Torment: 5-6s (?)
(note: the pet can maintain about 3 stacks on the target. too strong?)

Would you agree? What else can you think of to fill the 3rd major Adept spot. Natural Resistance is really just another suggestion. Tried to play with the resistance boon here, but may be better incorporated into Empathic Bond from the Wilderness Survival specialization. Not sure here.

I find it kinda silly though.

If Anet allow our pet’s stat to be high again, why the heck did they butcher the dps of beastmaster back then? It’s just a counter-productive looping of nerf and buff.

Kind of the MO unfortunately look at what happened to spirits from the betas until today, pretty much the kind of whack-a-mole development that was stated as something they didn’t want to do.

Yeah, it’s not like the developers would make any valuable changes here. I just would like to toss around ideas for the sake of discussion and to see whether we could reach a state where we’re able to say “Yes, if it were this way, I’d trait Beastmastery more often because I see good synergy for a couple of builds”. That’s pretty much all. ^^

I am just going to keep my expectation low and maybe they will surprise me (and not in a bad way).

Depending on their timeline maybe once they’ve finished rebuilding engineer there might be some time to work on the pet behavior and pathing, but I am not sure where ranger sits on the to-do list.

@Girion
Please go back to the discussin on how 300 and 450 Ferocity is too much for something that isn’t even a grandmaster trait.

For some perspective, Warriors only get +150 Ferocity per Axe with their Grandmaster trait in the new specialization system.

If the problem would be fitting it all into the traitline, some of the benefits could just come passively by choosing the spec.

Or putting enough points into the BM traitline, or however they’re doing this…

I think it’s their job to work out the maths and make everything fair and balanced.

It’s only our job (if we have a job at all, as customers) to come up with the general ideas.

Ehecatl.9172:

Bran.7425:

It is playing to that ‘strength’ of the ranger that got the pets an across the board nerf in damage (which they didn’t really need in PvE/WvW, spvp was arguable) and with the addition defense they are looking at giving to both ranger and the pet they might very well do it again.

Oh, at this rate I’m almost positive it’ll get nerfed into the ground. Anet caved hard to the tears of the community about turrets and obliterated that build to the point it’s not usable in any game mode. According to quite a few responses to the different threads on the matter the community is targeting us next.

We shouldn’t dwell too much on possible future nerfs. I’d rather try to be optimistic.

“The community”, in most games that have them, seem to try to target hunters/rangers, because we’re an easy target and/or they want us to remain so.

I’ve said this before, but if rangers are OP, how come in WvW, everyone tells you to switch to other profs, all the time?

How come they NEVER tell you to switch to ranger?

How come they target ranger, before most other profs around the ranger, to casually burn down?

How come, when I see another ranger, when I’m in a group, I know it will be a quick kill?

People want it every way.

They don’t like rangers (and want them nerfed) when they’re being sniped by one, but view them as virtually useless, when a ranger is on their own team.

If I didn’t like pets, I wouldn’t even be bothering with ranger, at all, in this game.

Because it’s rubbish, in most situations and everyone tells you they view it as such.

Doesn’t sound like a class that needs nerfing, does it?

Reworking to be better and more flexible, yes; but not nerfing.

Even in WoW, where hunter is far better than ranger is here, it’s still only mid-pack in PVP…

Please, please, don’t start with the WoW talk…

@Tigaseye:
Look through the forums … dig through the past several years.

You’ll find this little situation occurs:
(1) The community is largely saying “X” sucks so bad.
(2) Someone tries X and loves it … masters it.
(3) That someone makes videos showing how good they can be with it and how awesome it is.
(4) The community suddenly accepts it.

It’s not always the case with every skill / trait / etc. but it has happened plenty of times.

In WvW, I’d say it depends on what I’m doing and what I need as far as if I want a Ranger or another class. If people still haven’t figured out which classes are ideal for which roles … that’s their own deficiency. GWEN isn’t ideal everywhere. It just has a large enough success rate that the bandwagon has jumped on it.

Thinking is apparently hard … so some/many don’t do it and just go with the bandwagon.

Sebrent.3625:

@Girion
Please go back to the discussin on how 300 and 450 Ferocity is too much for something that isn’t even a grandmaster trait.

For some perspective, Warriors only get +150 Ferocity per Axe with their Grandmaster trait in the new specialization system.

With the new system only 2 other professions get a ferocity trait and I think the best example to draw into comparisson would be the Ele Air Magic Master trait Aeromancer’s Training (+150 Ferocity while in Air, -20% Air skill recharge). Given this I do find it reasonable to give the Ranger a flat +150 Ferocity with Rending Attacks, even though it’s not connected to a certain condition, like the Air magic trait. 300 Ferocity is probably too much, but 150 equals +10%, which is less than a 10% dmg increase, depending on your crit chance. A sole +150 Ferocity isn’t exactly strong, which is why I don’t consider it problematic to give the pet +450 Ferocity alongside the player ferocity. Afterall, pets don’t have any other means of increasing crit dmg and account for a good amount of our damage.

So in essence, to me , …

Rending Attacks (master tier)
You and your pet deal more damage on critical hits. Your pet inflicts torment when it critically hits with its basic attack.
Pet Ferocity Increase: 450
Player Ferocity Increase: 150
1x Torment: 6s

… is not overpowered and it definitaely doesn’t have grandmaster quality, since it’s not build defining, which, according to Arenanet’s definition, grandmaster traits should be.

I changed the Rending Attacks version in the opening post, because multiple users preferred to have the pet ferocity increase on the minor traits.

Edit:
If you want to give the player ferocity a condition in order to balance it a bit more, you could say “+150 Ferocity while your pet is alive”, but I personally wouldn’t want to do that, as this trait would be next to useless in WvW then.

It’s looking more reasonable but still feels a bit overloaded and unfocused to me.

If I want a trait focused on making my pets’ crits hurt … make everything about it focused on that.

I don’t see myself wanting both condition damage and increased crit damage in the same build unless I’m running Rampager/Sinister/Celestial … two of which I’d be taking with +0 Ferocity outside of this trait.

I also don’t see why we would want to move the +450 Ferocity from an auto-included Minor trait to an optional Major trait … but I’m tired and perhaps forgetting something said days ago.

Sebrent.3625:

@Tigaseye:
Look through the forums … dig through the past several years.

You’ll find this little situation occurs:
(1) The community is largely saying “X” sucks so bad.
(2) Someone tries X and loves it … masters it.
(3) That someone makes videos showing how good they can be with it and how awesome it is.
(4) The community suddenly accepts it.

It’s not always the case with every skill / trait / etc. but it has happened plenty of times.

In WvW, I’d say it depends on what I’m doing and what I need as far as if I want a Ranger or another class. If people still haven’t figured out which classes are ideal for which roles … that’s their own deficiency. GWEN isn’t ideal everywhere. It just has a large enough success rate that the bandwagon has jumped on it.

Thinking is apparently hard … so some/many don’t do it and just go with the bandwagon.

I’m not saying some people can’t master a harder class/spec/traitline/weapon type/whatever and/or find a place in the game in which these harder to master (and/or inferior) things are more suited (or less not suited).

I’m just saying that some of these things are regarded by players as far harder to play, or far less suited to a certain environment, than others (normally, with very good reason) and so, the general consensus is to just avoid them and avoid running with people who use them.

Even if a few of the people, who use them anyway, have managed to master them, against the odds.

It’s still, generally, the view of most people that that person, who is managing pretty well with a hard (or inferior) thing, would do even better if they used an easy (or superior) one.

…and let’s face it, they’re probably, generally, right, aren’t they?

We’re never going to agree here, as (rather worryingly, given the profession stated in your sig, IMO) you think the way to challenge players is to create intentional imbalance between classes and specs and so on and allow players to choose the harder things, only if they want to rise to that challenge.

Whereas, I simply don’t think that, as you know.

I think everything should be properly balanced and fair, especially in a game that involves PVP and any challenge, for more experienced players, should be equally provided within each thing.

I also don’t think players should be forced to abandon their favourite class, or spec, in order to play a certain part of the game optimally.

All classes and specs should work equally well in all game modes.

That may be a pipe dream, to an extent, but that is what the aim should be.

As we have such differing views, I can’t see us getting anywhere.

Also, while I can agree that viewing players who (intentionally, or unintentionally) choose the harder/inferior thing as bad (as some people seem to do) is totally unfair, I can’t agree with you that it is stupid of people to view harder choices as bad choices, in a team situation.

Selfish, quite possibly, but not stupid.

That is just normal and natural, as they are thinking about what is almost certainly going to work out best for the team (and therefore, ultimately, for themselves).

While you think like this about your players and blame them for anything they think and feel, that you don’t happen to agree with, you will never reach your full potential as a developer (or anything else).

Understanding the way your customer base thinks and not blaming them for their views, especially when those views are formed by your own (quite possibly mistaken, sometimes) decisions, is everything.

Yes some people can be sheep-like, we all know that, but just dismissing everyone’s opinions as being sheep-like, just because they don’t happen to fit in with your own views, is a mistake.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Please, please, don’t start with the WoW talk…

OK, I’ll answer you, even though all you seem to do, on here, is briefly complain about everything people say.

I view it as very relevant, as hunter in WoW was also viewed as inferior and was everyone’s favourite target in Cata (around the time this game was being developed…).

Rangers in GW2 are more than somewhat reminiscent of WoW Cata hunters, quite frankly.

They’re WoW Cata hunters, with far too much focus on melee (to the complete detriment of their far more class-appropriate starting weapon), a worse pet and a glitchy, mage-style AOE.

Then, some changes were made to WoW hunter and it became far less bad, but is (or was, last time I checked) still only mid-pack in PVP (proving those changes were not overdone).

There was a certain ability which people initially abused in PVP, but that was quickly changed so they couldn’t.

WoW is still far from perfect, as it is (or was, until fairly recently) still far, far, easier to roll something like a DK and casually faceroll virtually anyone in a BG, but still.

That points to the fact that those other heavy armour classes need a nerf, in PVP, to become more on a level with hunter.

The point is, classes can be changed for the better (without being made OP), if devs choose to buckle down and do it and WoW hunters are proof of that.

Games are not designed in a vacuum, it would be naïve to think they were.

Therefore, it is not surprising that ranger in this and hunter in Cata WoW have things in common.

It’s just that, as hunter was improved in WoW, about three years ago, whereas ranger in this game is still stuck where it was, it makes ranger in this game look even more inadequate than it otherwise would.

Tigaseye.2047:

OK, I’ll answer you, even though all you seem to do, on here, is briefly complain about everything people say.

Lol, what?

Hello pot, this is kettle.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Tigaseye.2047:

OK, I’ll answer you, even though all you seem to do, on here, is briefly complain about everything people say.

Lol, what?

Hello pot, this is kettle.

I think we can safely say that I haven’t complained about any genuine (and/or fair)opinion about the game anyone has had and that I rarely say anything briefly.

So, no, I don’t think so.

Of course I will complain, if people are just being unnecessarily hostile to other people’s opinions about the game, but that is not the same thing, at all.

BTW, your latest post is a great example of yet another brief complaint.

Was that intentional?

Sebrent.3625:

@Tigaseye:
Look through the forums … dig through the past several years.

You’ll find this little situation occurs:
(1) The community is largely saying “X” sucks so bad.
(2) Someone tries X and loves it … masters it.
(3) That someone makes videos showing how good they can be with it and how awesome it is.
(4) The community suddenly accepts it.

It’s not always the case with every skill / trait / etc. but it has happened plenty of times.

In WvW, I’d say it depends on what I’m doing and what I need as far as if I want a Ranger or another class. If people still haven’t figured out which classes are ideal for which roles … that’s their own deficiency. GWEN isn’t ideal everywhere. It just has a large enough success rate that the bandwagon has jumped on it.

Thinking is apparently hard … so some/many don’t do it and just go with the bandwagon.

Which is why I usually say, submit your build to metabattle

So other people can peer-review the build using that skill.