Guild Wars 2

“Well, recently I’ve been wondering what is the best number of each class to run when running 20-25 man skill groups.

I think it mainly depends on your goal, but say it was busting big blobs, what would be a good ratio of classes to run to both stay alive and do a lot of damage. I usually run about 5-6 warriors, 4-5 guardians, 1-2 eles, 2 engineers, 1 necro, 2-3 mesmers and one ranger/thief.

Anyway, just thought i’d get some other peoples opinions on it. If you’re experienced with havoc groups, post your thoughts!

Commander Noodica.
Midnight Mafia [MM] | BP
http://www.midnightmafia.net/"

Sums up how we are thought of as Rangers in wvw.

it should not come as a surprise. Like i stated in the thread you are referring to, minimum of 4-5 rangers if you want a good waterfield uptime.

Doesnt bother me greatly to be honest… He’s put down engis but most groups want nothing to do with engis or thieves either, and even mesmer is wanted for 2-3 abilities per fight and to stay the hell out of it for the rest of the time.

Its just how the game is setup, but we all know rangers, engis, mesmers and thieves are probably the 4 strongest duelling / roaming classes.. so it all balances out in some way.

Until this class provides some vital form of utility or excels at the utility it does bring, how can you blame people for forming the opinion they do of this class?

Not surprised, the way the melee train now works in wvw it’s not very efficient to bring rangers :/

NargofWoV.4267:

“Well, recently I’ve been wondering what is the best number of each class to run when running 20-25 man skill groups.

I think it mainly depends on your goal, but say it was busting big blobs, what would be a good ratio of classes to run to both stay alive and do a lot of damage. I usually run about 5-6 warriors, 4-5 guardians, 1-2 eles, 2 engineers, 1 necro, 2-3 mesmers and one ranger/thief.

Anyway, just thought i’d get some other peoples opinions on it. If you’re experienced with havoc groups, post your thoughts!

Commander Noodica.
Midnight Mafia [MM] | BP
http://www.midnightmafia.net/"

Sums up how we are thought of as Rangers in wvw.

A group of Rangers can’t be stopped – problem is, we don’t group together and use our skills effectively in a zerg or havoc group.

Many will run from a group of three or more Rangers – problem is most commanders don’t use us well.

One thing. Check your commanders the next time you are in WvW… more and more of THEM are Rangers.

NargofWoV.4267:

“Well, recently I’ve been wondering what is the best number of each class to run when running 20-25 man skill groups.

I think it mainly depends on your goal, but say it was busting big blobs, what would be a good ratio of classes to run to both stay alive and do a lot of damage. I usually run about 5-6 warriors, 4-5 guardians, 1-2 eles, 2 engineers, 1 necro, 2-3 mesmers and one ranger/thief.

Anyway, just thought i’d get some other peoples opinions on it. If you’re experienced with havoc groups, post your thoughts!

Commander Noodica.
Midnight Mafia [MM] | BP
http://www.midnightmafia.net/"

Sums up how we are thought of as Rangers in wvw.

Another thing Anet is NOT getting is that the WvW kills are by how many kill points you hit a particular NPC whether it be the sentry or the Lord of the Keep – the warrior will ALWAYS “beat” the rest of those hitting the NPC by points – my points can’t match them and THERE is the inequity of WvW in a nutshell.

It’s hard to tell without hard facts, but I feel like rangers are substantially increasing in popularity in WvW. It may be because large numbers of rangers charging you looks pretty intimidating. I also suspect the build awareness is increasing, sort of how the 1h spirit/spotter build made rangers desirable in dungeons. I run in to enemy greatsword rangers in zergs all the time.

1500 range piercing Longbow Ranger is one of the few class that can go full berserker in a zerg battle and survive. However, it needs those Guardians and Warrior and other classes to keep the enemy zerg away from them. It also requires clever positioning and to not be over-confident.

It’s a bit like long range assassination. Pick a weak target and put it into downed state.

I think a small organised group of 3-5 Rangers that always focus on the same target would be very useful. They would down and kill any enemy they focused on together. It often takes downed/kills to tip the scales in a zerg vs zerg battle. It’s also bad for morale to see people in your zerg get downed. Killing the commander could be a complete disaster to the enemy zerg as well.

I thinks it’s charitable that they even bothered to include the Ranger in their group setup. A thief is a far better scout/keep tagger.

The only thing we bring that no one else can is spotter which has suspect usefulness when everyone uses pvt/clerics gear.

Holland.9351:

1500 range piercing Longbow Ranger is one of the few class that can go full berserker in a zerg battle and survive. However, it needs those Guardians and Warrior and other classes to keep the enemy zerg away from them. It also requires clever positioning and to not be over-confident.

It’s a bit like long range assassination. Pick a weak target and put it into downed state.

I think a small organised group of 3-5 Rangers that always focus on the same target would be very useful. They would down and kill any enemy they focused on together. It often takes downed/kills to tip the scales in a zerg vs zerg battle. It’s also bad for morale to see people in your zerg get downed. Killing the commander could be a complete disaster to the enemy zerg as well.

This presumes there are no thieves in the zerg because the second they see you on your LB they are going to know exactly what you build is and 2shot you without you even realizing it.

I get thieves going for me and bouncing right off my pvt/knights at the start of a clash all the time because foolish zerk rangers are so common they just assume we all run it.

I rarely get attacked by thieves, but yes it does happen sometimes. Good for them though, that’s what they should be doing. However, it doesn’t nearly happen often enough for me to give up damage for it. Maybe I don’t play in a high enough tier server to encounter them.

I think the we cop a lot for flack from “zerker bare/bow” image that alot of people think when they think of rangers. it’s a pure hate on rangers as being thought of as a bunny/casual players class, it is (War is also an easy mode class as well).

I believe that even if anet buff us well in to a state of OP, we would still be considered useless. Because that’s existing attitude.

For the record i play front-line ranger GS + A/A or A/WH with 30/0/30/10/0 full PVT and i am often one of the last standing in a wipe. I only really die early if i get court out of position, even then its pop both signets and walk back to the commander.

Just remember to equip Healing Spring and Muddy Terrain and don’t bring spirits (there also one of the items that give us a bad name in WvW)

Eggyokeo.9705:

I think the we cop a lot for flack from “zerker bare/bow” image that alot of people think when they think of rangers. it’s a pure hate on rangers as being thought of as a bunny/casual players class, it is (War is also an easy mode class as well).

I believe that even if anet buff us well in to a state of OP, we would still be considered useless. Because that’s existing attitude.

For the record i play front-line ranger GS + A/A or A/WH with 30/0/30/10/0 full PVT and i am often one of the last standing in a wipe. I only really die early if i get court out of position, even then its pop both signets and walk back to the commander.

Just remember to equip Healing Spring and Muddy Terrain and don’t bring spirits (there also one of the items that give us a bad name in WvW)

But what did you do with that build… you’re just there to soak AE. You didn’t spam AE stuns and knockdowns like a Warrior did. You didn’t spam heals like the Guardian. You didn’t spread condis like the Necro. You were just there doing nothing but soaking up some AE damage. This is what other people see and that is why the class has the reptuation that it does. The class doesn’t ‘do’ anything.

Atherakhia.4086:

But what did you do with that build… you’re just there to soak AE. You didn’t spam AE stuns and knockdowns like a Warrior did. You didn’t spam heals like the Guardian. You didn’t spread condis like the Necro. You were just there doing nothing but soaking up some AE damage. This is what other people see and that is why the class has the reptuation that it does. The class doesn’t ‘do’ anything.

Very true, and this is that attitude that makes us seem “useless”. We are not “useless” we are “less useful then…” but that’s the attitude problem that we face to the extent that some people even believe that if your going to turn up as a ranger then don’t bother at all.

But numbers do matter, know your own class matters getting on voice comms and following instruction matters. On top that we can soft CC, Aoe Regen, Water field cleanse conditions, provide 150 precision (not so useful). But the problem is that wider WvW community (game in general) does not see any value in this.

Eggyokeo.9705:

Atherakhia.4086:

But what did you do with that build… you’re just there to soak AE. You didn’t spam AE stuns and knockdowns like a Warrior did. You didn’t spam heals like the Guardian. You didn’t spread condis like the Necro. You were just there doing nothing but soaking up some AE damage. This is what other people see and that is why the class has the reptuation that it does. The class doesn’t ‘do’ anything.

Very true, and this is that attitude that makes us seem “useless”. We are not “useless” we are “less useful then…” but that’s the attitude problem that we face to the extent that some people even believe that if your going to turn up as a ranger then don’t bother at all.

But numbers do matter, know your own class matters getting on voice comms and following instruction matters. On top that we can soft CC, Aoe Regen, Water field cleanse conditions, provide 150 precision (not so useful). But the problem is that wider WvW community (game in general) does not see any value in this.

Because many servers have queues during prime time. Every person that is in game is 1 or more that can’t play yet. If you are on a class that doesn’t do anything better than another you are effectively holding the zerg back by keeping another guardian, warrior, mesmer, necro, or ele from getting in.

I just choose to not give a kitten for the most part but this is where a big part of the “don’t you have another class you can play?” mentality comes from, at least on the higher pop servers.

A big part of this could be helped by anet actually trying to fix pets in wvw so things like stalker might or wolf fear could be seen as a positive instead of something that rarely works as intended.

Holland.9351:

1500 range piercing Longbow Ranger is one of the few class that can go full berserker in a zerg battle and survive. However, it needs those Guardians and Warrior and other classes to keep the enemy zerg away from them. It also requires clever positioning and to not be over-confident.

It’s a bit like long range assassination. Pick a weak target and put it into downed state.

I think a small organised group of 3-5 Rangers that always focus on the same target would be very useful. They would down and kill any enemy they focused on together. It often takes downed/kills to tip the scales in a zerg vs zerg battle. It’s also bad for morale to see people in your zerg get downed. Killing the commander could be a complete disaster to the enemy zerg as well.

This ^^

People say rangers are good at many things but a master at none.. I feel they are really only good at one thing when it comes to this type of play, and what this person mentioned is indeed it.

I’ve watched zerg vs zerg clashes that are so close they can go either way. You stick a berserker ranger (or 2) in the back dropping barrage, the battle isn’t even close, it’s over 10-20 seconds.

For example, I just came out of a battle where I think I tagged about 20-25 people or so with barrage ticking at 1600-2200. Combined with the zerg’s regular play, that battle lasted about 15 seconds before the enemy zerg was dead.

People say Rangers or people that hang out in the back are easy targets because they simply run through the zerg to get to you.. fair enough. I’ve played in nearly all tiers (and including gold league right now), the enemy zerg never does it. They sometimes try, but will always die if they do. So unless they can figure out a way to stop a ranger dropping that much dps on them, well they are completely underrated

Umm, my guild runs through Zergs to get the backline all the time, and we rarely die like you say. Also, any ranger trying to barrage us will get half of their health taken away due to retaliation.

But maybe it works against pug zergs. So ya got that going for you.

Substance E.4852:

Holland.9351:

well.

This presumes there are no thieves in the zerg because the second they see you on your LB they are going to know exactly what you build is and 2shot you without you even realizing it.

I get thieves going for me and bouncing right off my pvt/knights at the start of a clash all the time because foolish zerk rangers are so common they just assume we all run it.

That’s funny you say this, I run a LB Warrior and I get the thieves thinking I’m a ranger all the time, its is funny because I’m a rather tanky LB warrior. I do draw them like flies though.

The reason we are not needs in wvw is not because we bring bad utilities, it’s because our class mechanic is useless in blob vs blob fights.

Fomby.4295:

Umm, my guild runs through Zergs to get the backline all the time, and we rarely die like you say. Also, any ranger trying to barrage us will get half of their health taken away due to retaliation.

But maybe it works against pug zergs. So ya got that going for you.

lol that retaliation. I’ve pretty much just stopped using barrage in most fights because of that.

Fomby.4295:

Umm, my guild runs through Zergs to get the backline all the time, and we rarely die like you say. Also, any ranger trying to barrage us will get half of their health taken away due to retaliation.

But maybe it works against pug zergs. So ya got that going for you.

Reverting back to before leagues were introduced, I played in the bottom 2 tiers, and the upper 2 tiers. None of those servers have ever been able to effectively bust through and take out the back line. I sit in gold league now and have played Maguuma many times as both part of gold league and previous to leagues. I play quite a bit during prime time NA, and I’ve never seen any Maguuma zerg bust through the zerg to the back.. If so, you would have got me I havn’t died in nearly a month in WvW, and when I did, it wasn’t to Mag. Mag does have one thing going for them, they are by far some of the better open field fighters out there.

Retaliation used to be a problem.. but for whatever reason, it doesn’t affect me anymore. I can’t remember the last time i’ve taken any noticeable damage, and I’m about as glass cannon as you can get.

I’ve seen people argue that thieves simply stealth to the back and take out rangers and other long range targets.. but I can tell you after facing BG (where I currently reside), JQ, SoR, TC, FA, DB, Mag, SoS, SF, GoM, KN, FC, HoD, CD, EB… none of them have been able to successfully pull it off without getting wiped out first while i’ve been in the zerg. Believe me, they try, but always fail. The same goes through penetrating the front line to get the back targets, it’s never happened in any zerg i’ve been in.

Even despite what i’m saying, I still think Rangers are probably the most useless class when it comes to WvW based on what they bring to the zerg or groups in the ways of support. If they come from a pure dps standpoint, it only really takes 2 fully glassed rangers in the back lines to help flatten the front line of the enemy zerg.

I say help because, if the front line is forced to eat even half of barrage’s ticks (which almost always happens), they’re done for in seconds.

NargofWoV.4267:

Substance E.4852:

This presumes there are no thieves in the zerg because the second they see you on your LB they are going to know exactly what you build is and 2shot you without you even realizing it.

I get thieves going for me and bouncing right off my pvt/knights at the start of a clash all the time because foolish zerk rangers are so common they just assume we all run it.

That’s funny you say this, I run a LB Warrior and I get the thieves thinking I’m a ranger all the time, its is funny because I’m a rather tanky LB warrior. I do draw them like flies though.

You probably attract them more than me because you have to be at 1200 range max, while I can be at 2000 range max.

DeadlySynz.3471:

Retaliation used to be a problem.. but for whatever reason, it doesn’t affect me anymore. I can’t remember the last time i’ve taken any noticeable damage, and I’m about as glass cannon as you can get.

I’ve seen people argue that thieves simply stealth to the back and take out rangers and other long range targets..

Yes, neither retaliation nor thieves bother me all that much. It could be aweful if everyone in their zerg had 100% retaliation uptime, but that doesn’t happen.

Holland.9351:

Yes, neither retaliation nor thieves bother me all that much. It could be aweful if everyone in their zerg had 100% retaliation uptime, but that doesn’t happen.

lol easy..:D

It’s just that a full glass barrage can’t produce more damage than an ele’s meteor shower. Especially if combined with tornado. Ele’s also bring 2 water fields where they don’t have to waste their heal. Along with other things like uneven ground, fire fields, and blast finishers.

It always amazes me to see what commanders thing is the right thing to do. I find myself roaming next to the zerg with 2 ranger buddies, as soon as the fight reaches a stalemate, we separate from the zerg, look for a strategic spot, build an arrow cart, and voila the zerg pulled through! Wow commander you are a genius! [some world] is the best ever! [some guild] we rock unbeatable! Fever rush into the next thing and everyone gets whiped… except the three little rangers who built the AC and decided to go cap a supply camp, which the commander in turn uses to fuel up and charge in again, wooooooo!

So unbeliavably stupid….

awge.3852:

It always amazes me to see what commanders thing is the right thing to do. I find myself roaming next to the zerg with 2 ranger buddies, as soon as the fight reaches a stalemate, we separate from the zerg, look for a strategic spot, build an arrow cart, and voila the zerg pulled through! Wow commander you are a genius! [some world] is the best ever! [some guild] we rock unbeatable! Fever rush into the next thing and everyone gets whiped… except the three little rangers who built the AC and decided to go cap a supply camp, which the commander in turn uses to fuel up and charge in again, wooooooo!

So unbeliavably stupid….

so you’re saying the most valuable class in WvW is the arrowcart? This has been known for months…

Atherakhia.4086:

awge.3852:

It always amazes me to see what commanders thing is the right thing to do. I find myself roaming next to the zerg with 2 ranger buddies, as soon as the fight reaches a stalemate, we separate from the zerg, look for a strategic spot, build an arrow cart, and voila the zerg pulled through! Wow commander you are a genius! [some world] is the best ever! [some guild] we rock unbeatable! Fever rush into the next thing and everyone gets whiped… except the three little rangers who built the AC and decided to go cap a supply camp, which the commander in turn uses to fuel up and charge in again, wooooooo!

So unbeliavably stupid….

so you’re saying the most valuable class in WvW is the arrowcart? This has been known for months…

Pretty much heheh, nah no I’m not saying that, I am saying that I am always amazed at what commanders think is right or best. There is no right or best, especially the decision of having no thieves or rangers in their group (as seen in the first comment). The right strategy is what counts the most, even if you run with 100 guardians and warriors, they will all meet their doom at the hands of a well thought out strategy. Rangers may not contribute as excellently as other professions can, but underestimating their value in the war that is WvW is clearly an under sight, I would not rally under any commander who thinks that way.

Ohhh man. Let me get this straight…

DeadlySynz.3471:

Fomby.4295:

Umm, my guild runs through Zergs to get the backline all the time, and we rarely die like you say. Also, any ranger trying to barrage us will get half of their health taken away due to retaliation.

But maybe it works against pug zergs. So ya got that going for you.

…I played in the bottom 2 tiers, and the upper 2 tiers. None of those servers have ever been able to effectively bust through and take out the back line. I sit in gold league now…

Are you seriously going to come on here and suggest that no zerg has ever run through another and hit the back line? You realize everyone who plays this game knows that is a bunch of BS right?

DeadlySynz.3471:

Retaliation used to be a problem.. but for whatever reason, it doesn’t affect me anymore. I can’t remember the last time i’ve taken any noticeable damage, and I’m about as glass cannon as you can get.

retal does about 180-230 dmg per hit at ~2600 armor. at 12x hits, barrage causes the ranger to take at least 2160dmg per player. If barrage lands perfectly and hits at least 5 players for all 12 tics, thats 10,800 dmg. Thats not opinion, thats the math. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkFhU2WHW9c)

DeadlySynz.3471:

I’ve seen people argue that thieves simply stealth to the back and take out rangers and other long range targets.. but I can tell you after facing …(every NA server)… none of them have been able to successfully pull it off without getting wiped out first while i’ve been in the zerg. Believe me, they try, but always fail. The same goes through penetrating the front line to get the back targets, it’s never happened in any zerg i’ve been in.

So you ARE seriously suggesting that no one has ever penetrated to the back line of a zerg. Well I guess I could go in depth on how stability, berserker stance or shout based condi clearing works, but i dont think its necessary. Every active wvw player (besides you) sees zergs run right through eachother to the back line on a daily basis.

DeadlySynz.3471:

Even despite what i’m saying, I still think Rangers are probably the most useless class when it comes to WvW based on what they bring to the zerg or groups in the ways of support. If they come from a pure dps standpoint, it only really takes 2 fully glassed rangers in the back lines to help flatten the front line of the enemy zerg.

I say help because, if the front line is forced to eat even half of barrage’s ticks (which almost always happens), they’re done for in seconds.

So rangers are useless, but 2 of them can flatten out a front line in seconds with half of their barrage? Which, mathmatically is the same as 1 of them with 1 full barrage? So one glass ranger can wipe out a frontline if they eat 1 full barrage! Quick commanders, time to stack rangers! Thats incredible.

Or uncredible.

tl;dr:

• The probability that you play wvw and dont see zergs break through the back lines on a daily basis = very very low.
• The probability that you play longbow and have never taken a 8-10k in retal damage from barrage = very very low, unless you missed every time.
• The probability that 1 full barrage (or 2 half barrages) from a glass cannon ranger can wipe a front line = 0. Impossible.

You are either the rarest magical unicorn of rangers in terms of what you have seen in game, or you are full of it.

I’m just saying, all you need to be a commander is 100g.

It is in no way, shape, or form a measure of tactics, intelligence, or even ability to play outside of a champ train.

So the next time you see a commander being rude to rangers, just remember that the only thing that makes them different from being a terrible player is a waypoint on the map that is drawing in all of the mindless drones to start a zerg at that spot.

Not that this is true for every single commander out there, obviously. But maybe giving PvE their own commander type tags, and then for WvW, implementing a world rank requirement to be a commander would have been a better idea, so that being a commander actually indicated something to players other than a monetary status.

Aka; just because there are commanders out there and they say stuff, it doesn’t make them right, and it doesn’t make them good players who know what they’re talking about.

jcbroe.4329:

I’m just saying, all you need to be a commander is 100g.

It is in no way, shape, or form a measure of tactics, intelligence, or even ability to play outside of a champ train.

So the next time you see a commander being rude to rangers, just remember that the only thing that makes them different from being a terrible player is a waypoint on the map that is drawing in all of the mindless drones to start a zerg at that spot.

Not that this is true for every single commander out there, obviously. But maybe giving PvE their own commander type tags, and then for WvW, implementing a world rank requirement to be a commander would have been a better idea, so that being a commander actually indicated something to players other than a monetary status.

Aka; just because there are commanders out there and they say stuff, it doesn’t make them right, and it doesn’t make them good players who know what they’re talking about.

There should be a better system for being a commander in WvW. Playing the game and getting 100g does make you an above average experienced player in PvE, certainly taking into consideration that you didn’t get it as a gift (or bought it online using those good gold scams). But how can you accurately measure that you are worth of being a WvW commander? There should not be any competition over the ranks nor any grind associated with it, this is in order to keep up with the GW2 mentality which is a positive one at that.

What needs to happen in my opinion is that, rather than being a commander in both WvW and PvE, a WvW commander needs to be chosen. Let’s say for example a guild that is at least average wvw oriented helps to contribute week by week into WvW, such guild can stack a fair average amount of points for the members who complete events in WvW. This average is standard for everyone and certainly not too easy nor too difficult to obtain, it should measure the overall guild’s contribution to WvW. Once that happens, the guild can vote to have a commander for WvW. If the guild is pure hardcore WvW, then they can have multiple commanders, chosen by the guild that is. If the guild decides to make an irresponsible/unexperienced person be a commander, then congratulations, everyone know which guild not to turn to for commanders. On the other hand, strong guilds who do have tactical minds (to a certain extent at least) will be glad to have a commander, someone who enjoys tactical game play, and is good at it. Now this system is not perfect, but its far better than the current one… shall we call the current one pug commanders? Sounds about right.

NargofWoV.4267:

Sums up how we are thought of as Rangers in wvw.

No it doesn’t Zergs are only part of the game. Ask about forming a 2-man havoc group and you’ll get many different answers, with Rangers being part of them.

As for Zergs, backline Rangers can certainly be effective. They may make easy pickings if their not careful, but otherwise they can put out damage and are relatively safe.

jaif.3518:

NargofWoV.4267:

Sums up how we are thought of as Rangers in wvw.

No it doesn’t Zergs are only part of the game. Ask about forming a 2-man havoc group and you’ll get many different answers, with Rangers being part of them.

As for Zergs, backline Rangers can certainly be effective. They may make easy pickings if their not careful, but otherwise they can put out damage and are relatively safe.

I think I’ve found my problem with this mentality. People use this to show how rangers aren’t useless in WvW. But even in small roaming groups, I would pick any other class before ranger. They can all bring something better to the table, and what’s great is if y’all need to join a Zerg for some reason, you can and you’ll still be effective (if not playing a ranger.)

So, when people say “rangers are a good option for roaming” I think they are misguided. What they mean is, rangers are better at roaming than zerging, but any other class can still do it better.

Raven.9603:

Ohhh man. Let me get this straight…

DeadlySynz.3471:

Fomby.4295:

Umm, my guild runs through Zergs to get the backline all the time, and we rarely die like you say. Also, any ranger trying to barrage us will get half of their health taken away due to retaliation.

But maybe it works against pug zergs. So ya got that going for you.

…I played in the bottom 2 tiers, and the upper 2 tiers. None of those servers have ever been able to effectively bust through and take out the back line. I sit in gold league now…

Are you seriously going to come on here and suggest that no zerg has ever run through another and hit the back line? You realize everyone who plays this game knows that is a bunch of BS right?

DeadlySynz.3471:

Retaliation used to be a problem.. but for whatever reason, it doesn’t affect me anymore. I can’t remember the last time i’ve taken any noticeable damage, and I’m about as glass cannon as you can get.

retal does about 180-230 dmg per hit at ~2600 armor. at 12x hits, barrage causes the ranger to take at least 2160dmg per player. If barrage lands perfectly and hits at least 5 players for all 12 tics, thats 10,800 dmg. Thats not opinion, thats the math. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkFhU2WHW9c)

DeadlySynz.3471:

I’ve seen people argue that thieves simply stealth to the back and take out rangers and other long range targets.. but I can tell you after facing …(every NA server)… none of them have been able to successfully pull it off without getting wiped out first while i’ve been in the zerg. Believe me, they try, but always fail. The same goes through penetrating the front line to get the back targets, it’s never happened in any zerg i’ve been in.

So you ARE seriously suggesting that no one has ever penetrated to the back line of a zerg. Well I guess I could go in depth on how stability, berserker stance or shout based condi clearing works, but i dont think its necessary. Every active wvw player (besides you) sees zergs run right through eachother to the back line on a daily basis.

DeadlySynz.3471:

Even despite what i’m saying, I still think Rangers are probably the most useless class when it comes to WvW based on what they bring to the zerg or groups in the ways of support. If they come from a pure dps standpoint, it only really takes 2 fully glassed rangers in the back lines to help flatten the front line of the enemy zerg.

I say help because, if the front line is forced to eat even half of barrage’s ticks (which almost always happens), they’re done for in seconds.

So rangers are useless, but 2 of them can flatten out a front line in seconds with half of their barrage? Which, mathmatically is the same as 1 of them with 1 full barrage? So one glass ranger can wipe out a frontline if they eat 1 full barrage! Quick commanders, time to stack rangers! Thats incredible.

Or uncredible.

tl;dr:

• The probability that you play wvw and dont see zergs break through the back lines on a daily basis = very very low.
• The probability that you play longbow and have never taken a 8-10k in retal damage from barrage = very very low, unless you missed every time.
• The probability that 1 full barrage (or 2 half barrages) from a glass cannon ranger can wipe a front line = 0. Impossible.

You are either the rarest magical unicorn of rangers in terms of what you have seen in game, or you are full of it.

Perfect answer. +1

To add to it: the guy is probably focusing too much on the “ooooh nice numbers” he’s seeing and not thinking enemies put out water fields, heal up and the pain train (notably warriors) have a very large hp pool. My warrior has 3k3 armor and 31k hp. Good luck killing him with your barrage lol.

Fomby.4295:

jaif.3518:

NargofWoV.4267:

Sums up how we are thought of as Rangers in wvw.

No it doesn’t Zergs are only part of the game. Ask about forming a 2-man havoc group and you’ll get many different answers, with Rangers being part of them.

As for Zergs, backline Rangers can certainly be effective. They may make easy pickings if their not careful, but otherwise they can put out damage and are relatively safe.

I think I’ve found my problem with this mentality. People use this to show how rangers aren’t useless in WvW. But even in small roaming groups, I would pick any other class before ranger. They can all bring something better to the table, and what’s great is if y’all need to join a Zerg for some reason, you can and you’ll still be effective (if not playing a ranger.)

So, when people say “rangers are a good option for roaming” I think they are misguided. What they mean is, rangers are better at roaming than zerging, but any other class can still do it better.

DING DING DING DING DING

Winner.

Atherakhia.4086:

Fomby.4295:

jaif.3518:

NargofWoV.4267:

Sums up how we are thought of as Rangers in wvw.

No it doesn’t Zergs are only part of the game. Ask about forming a 2-man havoc group and you’ll get many different answers, with Rangers being part of them.

As for Zergs, backline Rangers can certainly be effective. They may make easy pickings if their not careful, but otherwise they can put out damage and are relatively safe.

I think I’ve found my problem with this mentality. People use this to show how rangers aren’t useless in WvW. But even in small roaming groups, I would pick any other class before ranger. They can all bring something better to the table, and what’s great is if y’all need to join a Zerg for some reason, you can and you’ll still be effective (if not playing a ranger.)

So, when people say “rangers are a good option for roaming” I think they are misguided. What they mean is, rangers are better at roaming than zerging, but any other class can still do it better.

DING DING DING DING DING

Winner.

Sadly.

Stubbornly, I still play my ranger in WvW though…

KyreneZA.8617:

Atherakhia.4086:

Fomby.4295:

jaif.3518:

NargofWoV.4267:

Sums up how we are thought of as Rangers in wvw.

No it doesn’t Zergs are only part of the game. Ask about forming a 2-man havoc group and you’ll get many different answers, with Rangers being part of them.

As for Zergs, backline Rangers can certainly be effective. They may make easy pickings if their not careful, but otherwise they can put out damage and are relatively safe.

I think I’ve found my problem with this mentality. People use this to show how rangers aren’t useless in WvW. But even in small roaming groups, I would pick any other class before ranger. They can all bring something better to the table, and what’s great is if y’all need to join a Zerg for some reason, you can and you’ll still be effective (if not playing a ranger.)

So, when people say “rangers are a good option for roaming” I think they are misguided. What they mean is, rangers are better at roaming than zerging, but any other class can still do it better.

DING DING DING DING DING

Winner.

Sadly.

Stubbornly, I still play my ranger in WvW though…

As do I… even though my Warrior’s longbow can out-longbow my Longbow Ranger, I still play the Ranger because, even though it’s less effective, it’s more fun. It just feels a little more fluid on the Ranger. Plus I get a trenchcoat. Nothing beats a trenchcoat.

Well the current meta doesn’t allow much for Ranger play, let alone Mesmer or Engineer. It sucks, but that’s how it is for the foreseeable future.

We can still roam/1v1 like a boss though.

Fomby.4295:

I think I’ve found my problem with this mentality. People use this to show how rangers aren’t useless in WvW. But even in small roaming groups, I would pick any other class before ranger. They can all bring something better to the table, and what’s great is if y’all need to join a Zerg for some reason, you can and you’ll still be effective (if not playing a ranger.)

So, when people say “rangers are a good option for roaming” I think they are misguided. What they mean is, rangers are better at roaming than zerging, but any other class can still do it better.

I disagree, there is alot of truth to the rangers-are-for-roaming mentality. When people say roaming, I always think of running solo. As soon as you add party mates it becomes a havoc squad. I have played pretty extensively every class except warrior at 80. In zergs, obviously rangers are not wanted, but really, most classes arent so who cares? this game blows for encouraging zerging and for discouraging class diversity in large groups. its a huge, f-ed up epic flaw, somewhere on the mistake level of failing to have enemy names in wvw, stealth without long cooldown, commander tags or being able to banner rez keep lords.

Ranger roams better than than ele, guardian, necro, and warrior. Not “as well as”; flat out better than all the zerg-wanted classes. It is the only “extremely mobile” class besides warrior, and far outperforms a warriors ability to 1vX. 1vX, i would really only put a perplexity mesmer above them; with good rangers being on the same level as p/d thieves, engies and necros (certainly less pressure than the latter 2, but more than the first and better sustain and mobility than all 3).

Throw small-man roaming into the mix, and other classes begin to outpace us simply because of buff sharing. This could easily be fixed by turning spirits into passive auras (with the on-demands being centered on the ranger) rather than horrible 3hp mini-pet implementation they have now; it would single handedly make rangers zerg viable to provide those buffs reliably; but that wont happen until long after weve all left this game for ESO, EQN or Camelot Unchained.

Raven.9603:

Fomby.4295:

I think I’ve found my problem with this mentality. People use this to show how rangers aren’t useless in WvW. But even in small roaming groups, I would pick any other class before ranger. They can all bring something better to the table, and what’s great is if y’all need to join a Zerg for some reason, you can and you’ll still be effective (if not playing a ranger.)

So, when people say “rangers are a good option for roaming” I think they are misguided. What they mean is, rangers are better at roaming than zerging, but any other class can still do it better.

I disagree, there is alot of truth to the rangers-are-for-roaming mentality. When people say roaming, I always think of running solo. As soon as you add party mates it becomes a havoc squad. I have played pretty extensively every class except warrior at 80. In zergs, obviously rangers are not wanted, but really, most classes arent so who cares? this game blows for encouraging zerging and for discouraging class diversity in large groups. its a huge, f-ed up epic flaw, somewhere on the mistake level of failing to have enemy names in wvw, stealth without long cooldown, commander tags or being able to banner rez keep lords.

Ranger roams better than than ele, guardian, necro, and warrior. Not “as well as”; flat out better than all the zerg-wanted classes. It is the only “extremely mobile” class besides warrior, and far outperforms a warriors ability to 1vX. 1vX, i would really only put a perplexity mesmer above them; with good rangers being on the same level as p/d thieves, engies and necros (certainly less pressure than the latter 2, but more than the first and better sustain and mobility than all 3).

Throw small-man roaming into the mix, and other classes begin to outpace us simply because of buff sharing. This could easily be fixed by turning spirits into passive auras (with the on-demands being centered on the ranger) rather than horrible 3hp mini-pet implementation they have now; it would single handedly make rangers zerg viable to provide those buffs reliably; but that wont happen until long after weve all left this game for ESO, EQN or Camelot Unchained.

I was indeed talking about group roaming, flipping camps, and such, (gets boring playing by yourself) but I will stick with what I said for solo roaming as well.

I hate zerging so i was quite happy with my roaming ranger . But then a lot of the nerfs from PvP spilled over into WvW kicking the BM build in the nuts . And the shortbow nerf , kicking the trapper in the nuts . Now the spirit nerf , again in the nuts . To top it off , many classes got buffs in areas that results in much harder 1v1 battles , especially in WvW .

So i would not say ranger is as good at roaming anymore . it is adequate . But its fun so i keep at it

There is also the fact that not everyone is equally good at playing all styles. Thieves are a good example: a lot of people think of their backstab ambushes as a free kill, but in reality, a lot of people are really bad at playing thief. Mesmers are the undisputed gods of 1v1, but I am TERRIBLE at mesmer, despite my best efforts in sPvP to get better.

On the other hand, I can beat almost anyone I come across on a ranger. I’m better off roaming on a ranger than any other class, even if anyone could prove rangers are clearly inferior (which I would totally disagree with anyway.) I say this after putting major PvE/WvW/PvP time in on all 8 classes. The weapon skill evasions just somehow click in my brain where hiding in plain sight as a mesmer does not.

Also, my main solace in still playing my ranger in WvW is that the kills I’ve made still far outnumber the times I’ve died.

Granted, some of them were through mere tagging during raids or joining an open field fight, but at the same time most of my deaths occurred during those same fights. I have also been the last norn standing when my pet and the rest of our raid or even PUG zerg has wiped. It is severely frustrating playing the ranger when you know player mistakes is only partly to blame for failures, but it is divinely satisfying when despite it all your enemy/ies are dead and you’re alive to brag about it over some tankards of ale.

They may not want us, or fix us, but we are there, excelling, nonetheless.

Fomby.4295:

So, when people say “rangers are a good option for roaming” I think they are misguided. What they mean is, rangers are better at roaming than zerging, but any other class can still do it better.

My ranger is the only char that can easily solo a camp, btw.. I’m sure that every profession should be able to do so, but my main does it without breaking a sweat..

One of the funniest things i have learned to love about the ranger : The ranger is the best class when it comes to abusing the terrain . U can throw traps on the ceiling and it will hit people on the 2nd floor , long range pokes with longbow , short cooldown knockdown . Traps around walls and pillars . Sword is good for jumps if you align yourself on a wall for the back evade first .

The thing is , in this game there are builds that have everything : mobility , sustain and damage , namely warriors with signets , DD elementalists and so on…. this is amplified in WvW with food . Instead of nerfing the ability to do many things in a single build , ANet will most likely bring innate sustain to all classes eventually . But , this matters for open field combat . Fighting by using terrain advantages is totally something a ranger with a solid build can aim for . In the end , I am firmly against innate versatility . One should specialize imo

Tribio.8531:

Fomby.4295:

So, when people say “rangers are a good option for roaming” I think they are misguided. What they mean is, rangers are better at roaming than zerging, but any other class can still do it better.

My ranger is the only char that can easily solo a camp, btw.. I’m sure that every profession should be able to do so, but my main does it without breaking a sweat..

Agreed, builds such as trapper or beastmaster have enough AoE or tankiness to take down a camp (however, BM is a terrible roaming build after leash range, SB range, and pet damage nerf). But you’re right, all other classes can do it, most can do it faster. For example, a well necro destroys camps.

I’m playing a bit of a devils advocate here, I enjoy my ranger play style, have champion hunter and all that jazz.

Related to a different post about rangers abusing the terrain. I would have to say staff ele’s and well necros can take the cake there.

Fomby.4295:

It’s just that a full glass barrage can’t produce more damage than an ele’s meteor shower. Especially if combined with tornado. Ele’s also bring 2 water fields where they don’t have to waste their heal. Along with other things like uneven ground, fire fields, and blast finishers.

meteor shower takes longer to start hitting and has a shorter range. In my experience it’s much easier to land barrage reliably then meteor shower due to these two factors.

I have a full set of zerkers and pvt, so I throw on more or less pvt as the battle demands. open field it’s usually full zerkers, once I know we are going into a keep I throw on a few pieces of pvt.

Retaliation is still an issue, but it’s manageable.

The one reason I still think rangers are underestimated is that we can dish out more burst damage on a group quickly and reliably then any other class. Barrage + rapid fire is the best range burst in the game that you can get off reliably on a zerg.

With the current popular strategies yes rangers are less effective. But I still think that because of the burst we can do there is a lot of underused potential in rangers.

the greatest irony is that the most unconventional/unpopular strategies are often what gives you the edge.
Load up a zerg with rangers. Doooo eeeet

I find that Retaliation is only a problem if you’re not paying attention. Barrage can be self interrupted by moving so retaliation does little if any damage to a ranger who is aware of retaliation. Zergs bust through other zergs all the time, stealth and re-position. Doesn’t take long to figure out that playing backliner depends on positioning. Even without Barrage, piercing arrows will be nice damage from range.

Besides mesmer and P/D thief, I’m not sure there are many classes that outdo a solo roaming ranger. Yeah, we’ve been nerfed to hell, but despite that, rangers are still kicking and screaming.

Noobie.1073:

I find that Retaliation is only a problem if you’re not paying attention. Barrage can be self interrupted by moving so retaliation does little if any damage to a ranger who is aware of retaliation. Zergs bust through other zergs all the time, stealth and re-position. Doesn’t take long to figure out that playing backliner depends on positioning. Even without Barrage, piercing arrows will be nice damage from range.

Besides mesmer and P/D thief, I’m not sure there are many classes that outdo a solo roaming ranger. Yeah, we’ve been nerfed to hell, but despite that, rangers are still kicking and screaming.

I use a condi based ranger and I am pretty successful with it, but the more balance update the game ends, the more outdated it feels. Even for trapper builds, I wonder what rangers roaming with high toughness + power builds have to say.